Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 331 - AVS Forum
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post #9901 of 9916 Unread Today, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post
Why do you think it is a bias? I assume most people here like myself have seen it and didn't really care for it. I can't remember anyone at Cedia saying there was a must see 3D demo or 3D even being mentioned for that matter. The last time 3D was raved about was Cineramax's 3D demo at the '10 Cedia.

I should add that I have seen 3D in the theater in Imax and regular. In the home, I have seen it on Craig Round's G90 CRT (basically about the best you can do for CRT), DLP and LCOS. Also, I saw it on Mits laservue and thought this was one of the better 3D pictures, but IIRC Darin said there may have been reason for that.

The end result is I have seen one, I repeat, one film that I liked in 3D and that was Cap America Winter Soldier. A pleasant surprise, but definitely an anomaly.

Honestly, outside of you and a few others here no one really cares about 3D. I find it interesting that a forum devoted to home theater enthusiasts has pretty much turned their back on 3D.
I rest my case. Thank god for the Teranex!

Depth perception varies from person to person, with professional athletes often having extraordinary depth perception. I believe that most who don't appreciate 3D have average or below average depth perception. Some people have above average eyesight over distance and perhaps that's why some appreciate high resolution displays more than others. Maybe there are cultural differences as well. For some reason the Germans seem to be into 3D in a big way -- I have no idea why. The Chinese also seem to appreciate 3D. Again, I have no idea as to why.

The biggest problems for 3D are ghosting and brightness. Few in North America get to see bright ghost-free 3D images. It is possible that if they did they might make 3D more of a priority. As a former owner of a Sony G90 projector I don't believe it could produce a 3D image that would be anywhere near as bright as you'd need to show a good (bright) 3D image -- even if you stacked two G90s! LCOS HT projectors IMO aren't bright enough in 3D mode (including the Sony VW1100) unless you use something like a HP retro-reflective screen and most have ghosting issues or are susceptible to flicker. The best 3D images I would think would be produced from bright DLP projectors like the Super Lumis, but that comes at a hefty price, which puts that kind of 3D out of most peoples' reach. Combine a Sharp 30000 or a Mits 8000 with a 2.8 gain moderately sized HP screen and that's probably as good as it gets for 3D for most at the moment. If you don't like that 3D image then 3D probably isn't for you.
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post #9902 of 9916 Unread Today, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post
Why do you think it is a bias? I assume most people here like myself have seen it and didn't really care for it. I can't remember anyone at Cedia saying there was a must see 3D demo or 3D even being mentioned for that matter. The last time 3D was raved about was Cineramax's 3D demo at the '10 Cedia.

I should add that I have seen 3D in the theater in Imax and regular. In the home, I have seen it on Craig Round's G90 CRT (basically about the best you can do for CRT), DLP and LCOS. Also, I saw it on Mits laservue and thought this was one of the better 3D pictures, but IIRC Darin said there may have been reason for that.

The end result is I have seen one, I repeat, one film that I liked in 3D and that was Cap America Winter Soldier. A pleasant surprise, but definitely an anomaly.

Honestly, outside of you and a few others here no one really cares about 3D. I find it interesting that a forum devoted to home theater enthusiasts has pretty much turned their back on 3D.
The big problems with 3D, whether commercial or at home are brightness, ghosting and flicker. HT projectors like the Sharp 30000 and Mits 8000 are virtually ghost-free and depending on settings can be pretty much flicker free as well. To overcome the brightness issue they require a 2.8 gain moderately sized HP screen. IMO this will give you the best 3D outside of spending a considerable amount of money on a Super Lumis, which is ghost-free, flicker-free and very bright in 3D mode. If you haven't seen bright, flicker and ghost-free 3D then you haven't seen 3D in the way it's meant to be seen. The G90 simply isn't bright enough (I owned one) and the same holds true for LCOS and most DLPs. LCOS also has issues with flicker and ghosting.

Someday we'll have this kind of 3D at home at an affordable price and perhaps then people will change their minds about 3D.

"This is massively important for two reasons. First and foremost, the Lumis 3D-S’ extreme refresh rate per eye should eliminate that most dreaded of domestic 3D phenomena, crosstalk. But also it should kick into touch another massive objection to active 3D technology: flickering." and

"The net result of all the Lumis 3D-S’ extreme efforts is, as we couldn’t help but reveal right at the top of this review, extraordinary. The thing that hit us the hardest right away, like a 3D lightning bolt, was the complete absence of any crosstalk from 3D pictures. Seriously, there just isn’t ANY of the telltale ghosting at all, even during infamous crosstalk-inspiring scenes like the lantern sequence in Tangled or the bike fight in Tron."

"And believe us when we say the 3D-S really can drive some serious screen acreage, even with its effective brightness compromised by the 3D glasses, thanks to the power of the projector’s lamp and the extreme efficiency of the projector’s light engine. This achievement would actually have been enough in itself to underline the 3D-S’ high-end status even without the complete freedom from crosstalk.

Given how bright the Lumis 3D-S can be with 3D footage, it’s also remarkable to be able to enjoy such punchy 3D images without a trace of flicker – again proving the worth of Sim2’s decision to engineer triple-flash technology into a domesticated projector for the first time."

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post #9903 of 9916 Unread Today, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
The biggest problems for 3D are ghosting and brightness.
Na, its the glasses.. if you already need to wear glasses to see, 3D sucks in it's current implementation before any of the image issues are even brought into the mix.
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post #9904 of 9916 Unread Today, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
Someday we'll have this kind of 3D at home at an affordable price and perhaps then people will change their minds about 3D.
I think you're in for a big let down. 3D is already fading out and will be dead within 2 years. By the time we get a solution (brighter projectors without flicker) people will have already moved on from 3D and without new content coming out no one will care about absolute 3D performance. For the most part, probably ~ 90% of all 3D material is gimmicky and not worth the premium over the 2D offering. Most people aren't willing to invest in new technology so they can take advantage of the movies few and far between worth owning. You have to remember that most people are not like you (even the enthusiasts) in that they don't particularly care for 3D in general. This is why I have my doubts.
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post #9905 of 9916 Unread Today, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
Someday we'll have this kind of 3D at home at an affordable price and perhaps then people will change their minds about 3D.
I think you're in for a big let down. 3D is already fading out and will be dead within 2 years. By the time we get a solution (brighter projectors without flicker) people will have already moved on from 3D and without new content coming out no one will care about absolute 3D performance. For the most part, probably ~ 90% of all 3D material is gimmicky and not worth the premium over the 2D offering. Most people aren't willing to invest in new technology so they can take advantage of the movies few and far between worth owning. You have to remember that most people are not like you (even the enthusiasts) in that they don't particularly care for 3D in general. This is why I have my doubts.
I feel the same seegs.
3D is fun in some way. But when you see how good 2D is today I pick that before 3D any day.
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post #9906 of 9916 Unread Today, 03:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
The big problems with 3D, whether commercial or at home are brightness, ghosting and flicker. HT projectors like the Sharp 30000 and Mits 8000 are virtually ghost-free and depending on settings can be pretty much flicker free as well. To overcome the brightness issue they require a 2.8 gain moderately sized HP screen. IMO this will give you the best 3D outside of spending a considerable amount of money on a Super Lumis, which is ghost-free, flicker-free and very bright in 3D mode. If you haven't seen bright, flicker and ghost-free 3D then you haven't seen 3D in the way it's meant to be seen. The G90 simply isn't bright enough (I owned one) and the same holds true for LCOS and most DLPs. LCOS also has issues with flicker and ghosting.
this is partially what's responsible for the lack of interest. most folks setup's aren't designed to handle the light loss of the 3D. if I didn't have a large 2.8HP I probably wouldn't be as interested watching dim 3D. It needs to be bright, flicker free, ghost free and with comfortable glasses. Those items are key for great 3D and most setups don't have it.

what I don't get are forum members who crusade against it. It's now a feature built into most projectors, you have to get over it if you don't care for it. just ignore it, there's always a 2D version of the same movie to watch.

It's not going away in 2 years. Disney and Marvell continue to crank out every single movie they make in 3D, Guardians of the Galaxy was a blast in 3D, shame for those who missed out on it if watching in 2D only. Cameron will get people crazy again (like it or not) with Avatar 2. Jurassic World is 3D in 2015. Also The Force Awakens stars is being released in 2D, 3D and IMAX 3D on December 18, 2015. Pacific Rim 2 will be in 3D, etc.


some of my favorite 3D content is the documentaries and 3D concerts.
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post #9907 of 9916 Unread Today, 03:57 PM
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Na, its the glasses.. if you already need to wear glasses to see, 3D sucks in it's current implementation before any of the image issues are even brought into the mix.
I agree. It's mostly the glasses. When 3D movies are as easy and convenient to watch as 2D, we'll see more converts. I also think Deja Vu makes a good point about depth perception. My depth perception is quite good, and I think that fact is a big reason for my love of 3D. I see no reason to believe 3D is going away, as long as there are enough people who see it as a significant enhancement to the viewing experience. I believe there are a lot of those people out there. Remove the glasses impediment and those people won't have a problem with 3D.

Not that I expect many people who are anti-3D to take me up on this idea, but I'd invite them to put a patch over one eye and walk around for a couple of hours, inside and outside. If they don't see much difference in their world, I understand why they don't think that much of 3D films. I suspect there are a lot of those people, too. If, on the other hand, they perceive the "one-eyed" experience as having detracted from their perception of the world around them, I think that's ample justification for the existence of 3D movies. If having two eyes makes the real world more interesting and fulfilling, why shouldn't seeing movies in 3D be equally as rewarding?

3D movies make up a significant part of my collection (about 160 titles). 3D movies continue to be released at a decent clip, and probably in a similar ratio of good to bad as 2D films. I, too, believe that 3D's technological hurdles will be overcome. I have no desire to go back to black and white films with mono sound. I like color. I like surround sound. I look forward to Dolby Atmo expanding that to full hemispherical surround sound. I have faith that when 3D's limitations are eliminated, more people (including the AV enthusiasts here on AVS) will embrace it, too.
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post #9908 of 9916 Unread Today, 04:00 PM
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this is partially what's responsible for the lack of interest. most folks setup's aren't designed to handle the light loss of the 3D. if I didn't have a large 2.8HP I probably wouldn't be as interested watching dim 3D. It needs to be bright, flicker free, ghost free and with comfortable glasses. Those items are key for great 3D and most setups don't have it.

what I don't get are forum members who crusade against it. It's now a feature built into most projectors, you have to get over it if you don't care for it. just ignore it, there's always a 2D version of the same movie to watch.

It's not going away in 2 years. Disney and Marvell continue to crank out every single movie they make in 3D, Guardians of the Galaxy was a blast in 3D, shame for those who missed out on it if watching in 2D only. Cameron will get people crazy again (like it or not) with Avatar 2. Jurassic World is 3D in 2015. Also The Force Awakens stars is being released in 2D, 3D and IMAX 3D on December 18, 2015. Pacific Rim 2 will be in 3D, etc.


some of my favorite 3D content is the documentaries and 3D concerts.

Thousands of movies are released every year. Just because you have a half dozen examples of major movies being released in the next 24 months doesn't mean 3D is doing well or that somehow it will make the kind of resurgence it did 4 or 5 years ago. In general 3D hype has been long gone and the dwindling amount of 3D released movies over the past couple years is a clear indication that the movie studios think so too.

If you take a look at this list you'll see the number of 3D movies released in 2010 through 2014 per year is SOO much greater than the planned releases of movies in 2015:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_3D_films

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post #9909 of 9916 Unread Today, 04:16 PM - Thread Starter
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yes, I heard the same story 3 years and 2 years ago, etc. I don't need quantity, there's tons of crap movies made in 2D. the select 3D movies, concerts and documentaries that I watch are enjoyable and everyone who visits always comments on how great it looks.

I created this thread and it's predecessor specifically for people who also have an interest in 3D and that still stands today. And of course there's plenty of 2D talk as well. it's a thread to discuss all things related to projectors.

everyone has a choice, watch it in 2D and simply ignore the 3D. again, it's not going anyway for a little while despite the angst against it. let's not spoil it for those who like it.
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I have no issue with watching 3D. In general, when it's done well, I like to watch movies in 3D. I just think it's a fair point to say it's dying. I don't think making that point "spoils" it for people.

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In 2009 after Avatar's resurgence of 3D, of course every production house in the world was trying to release 3D to try and capitalize on it's popularity. Crap conversions like the Clash of the Titans and awful B movie releases just added quantity (Piranha 3D anyone?). They were equally bad as 2D movies..

I don't mind that a few select 3D movies comes out each year that I know myself and guests will enjoy. Some of the amazing BBC IMAX documentaries showcase the technology even better than a good 3D movie. Dying to me indicates that studios are working to get away from it. All I see is a reduction of garbage that shouldn't have been there in the first place. James Cameron, Marvel, Disney, JJ Abrams and other big studios are still embracing it for now. I bet most 2015 and 2016 projectors will still have 3D.

Some conversations are done amazingly. Jurassic Park and Titantic come to mind, very well done. JP for me, was much more fun in 3D. It gave a real sense of space to the landscape and was more convincing than watching it in 2D.
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post #9912 of 9916 Unread Today, 04:40 PM
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I have no issue with watching 3D. In general, when it's done well, I like to watch movies in 3D. I just think it's a fair point to say it's dying. I don't think making that point "spoils" it for people.
You may be right but how many times does 3D have to die before it's finally dead?
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Not that I expect many people who are anti-3D to take me up on this idea, but I'd invite them to put a patch over one eye and walk around for a couple of hours, inside and outside. If they don't see much difference in their world, I understand why they don't think that much of 3D films. I suspect there are a lot of those people, too. If, on the other hand, they perceive the "one-eyed" experience as having detracted from their perception of the world around them, I think that's ample justification for the existence of 3D movies. If having two eyes makes the real world more interesting and fulfilling, why shouldn't seeing movies in 3D be equally as rewarding?
this is an interesting topic, that people perceive depth in different ways. i'm definitely conscious of it and can get disoriented if one of my eyes is obstructed.

good to see you still on the forum. I'm watching this BBC doc later tonight, these guys always do a great job with their 3D presentations

http://www.amazon.com/Attenboroughs-...dp/B00HW4PACK/
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post #9914 of 9916 Unread Today, 05:58 PM - Thread Starter
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how about we change the topic to Laser vs. LED vs. UHP technology, that is always bound to stir up a conversation.

this many be an odd way of looking it at, but I like being able to replace a lamp and get back to out of the box performance. There's a number of people here who still use their JVC RS1 and Planar 8150's from 6-7 years ago and can put in a fresh lamp, back in action for a few thousand more hours. I certainly see the advantage for heavy users though.

For Led vs. Laser, I feel like I'd have a better chance after the warranty expires hunting down some LED's vs. a laser module / phosphor wheel. Swapping out LED's should be a piece of cake after dissecting a DLP and swapping out the panel. heck, I would find the LED's now and keep the spares around if I knew I was keeping the projector longer than warranty.

i'd feel better paying a premium for laser if I knew the laser was modular.
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Seagate has release an 8TB drive for only $260. that is a great price. It's no speed demon, but should be plenty in a RAID to stream BD ISO to a media player. I'm using WD 3TB red drives and there is never a hiccup using NFS.

http://www.extremetech.com/computing...b-for-just-260

it might be time for a storage rebuild soon, I wouldn't mind 8 of these in my tower to swap out the 3TB models.

I remember back in the 90's when the 6.4GB IBM 'Death Star' was a big deal. And my 40 MB drive on the Commodore Amiga in the late 80's. wow have we come a long way with storage capacity. We can thank the pr0n industry for high speed internet, efficient video codecs and large hard drives.
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post #9916 of 9916 Unread Today, 06:36 PM
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I like the longer calibration hold and longer "fresh lamp" lumen output the lasers have but I think you're right about the availability and limited end replacement possibilities that lasers have. This is bad for projectors, especially if we can only expect 10000 hours out of it in high lamp mode which the Epson quotes (still only 1100 D65 lumens, which dims over time). From what others have told me, the light the phosphor creates when ignited cannot be used to create a color gamut as large what we can get from LEDs.

Lasers also seem to pose a threat to single chip DLP projectors too. The reason we're able to use LEDs with single chip DLP projectors stems from the fact that they can replicate how a color wheel works. The LEDs can do sequential color. Please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think a laser/phosphor wheel can do this. It creates yellow light that is then filtered to get red and green and another laser is used (without a phosphor wheel) just for blue as this is the spectrum of color that is typically the weakest coming from yellow light/a UHP lamp (makes sense, right?). The laser/phosphor wheel combo dim over their lifetime and created a limited native color gamut over LEDs (it seems the native color gamut is more reminiscent of a UHP lamp) due to the yellow light that's created being very similar to what a UHP lamp puts out.

LEDs can create a longer lasting light source at full brightness (which seems to be their entire life span as in they don't dim), a larger color gamut, are single chip DLP friendly, hold calibrations longer, can be modulated dynamically and used as a dynamic iris implementation along with the lasers, can be legally swapped out by an end user as I'm sure a bulb-like cage can be made that can be simply swapped out, and higher lumen output LEDs are currently out there (ala Sim2).

I personally find LEDs more interesting and a more friendly solution with less issues with the things most of us enthusiasts want from a light source. The one issue I don't like about them is all of the LED projectors I've owned (5 different LED models) is that all of them had an annoying "buzz" sound when the LEDs were called for 100% light output (or some integer close to 100%). I think it has to do with the high amperage the LED's are pulling at/near 100%. 30 amps is what the spec sheets say. But this is low voltage on the LED controller board, not from the power supply connected to your wall, aka 120/220+ circuit in your home. I hope a redesign or high sound dampening can get rid of this issue.

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