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post #9961 of 9984 Old Yesterday, 03:45 PM
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REC 709 is not gospel...it is merely correct color for content created in REC 709. As wider gamut content and displays proliferate, I suspect we'll all look back on the 709 era very differently. That said, LED's narrow spectral power distribution (SPD) does look brighter than other light engines with broad SPD...even when calibrated at 709. Moreover, if one uses their display to look at photos, the wider color space means we can set them to Adobe. If you capture and edit in Adobe, the photos look fantastic on LED/DLP projectors.
The vast majority of end users will be watching Blu-ray and HDTV broadcasts or web streamed content. These are all encoded for REC 709 so for most people REC 709 is gospel. If you were to watch it with an LED projector in it's native color gamut, it looks "cartoonish" in appearance. That wouldn't be all that great. All 5 LED projectors I've owned had to be calibrated to get rid of that cartoonish appearance. I'm not even a stickler when it comes to color but to watch REC 709 content in the native color gamut is a bit ridiculous. This is why I thnk the H-K effect really doesn't apply for most people.

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post #9962 of 9984 Old Yesterday, 05:50 PM
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This projector-techno-literate thread seems the right place to ask this:

There have been numerous reports concerning studies that show exposure to computers and mobile device screens can upset
our circadian rhythm and negatively impact the quality of our sleep. Here is yet another article:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/open-the...ime-1419272534

"But the type of short-wavelength enriched light, also known as blue light, that many backlit devices emit is especially powerful at suppressing the release of melatonin, the hormone that helps bring on sleep, experts say."


My question concerns how this relates to projector light. Would I presume correctly that watching a projector image would carry the same liabilities at night as a TV or computer, in terms of emitting the dreaded short-wavelength blue light?

I tend to watch something on my projector before bed time, hence my interest in the answer. Thanks.
But in all seriousness....does anyone here know the answer? ^^^^

Thanks.
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post #9963 of 9984 Old Yesterday, 07:05 PM
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But in all seriousness....does anyone here know the answer? ^^^^

Thanks.
No, different kind of light spectrum.. And if my wife and Mother-in-law are any kind of test subjects.. the projector puts you to sleep!
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post #9964 of 9984 Old Yesterday, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
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let's do a mythbusters to find out.

for the mobile devices it seems plausible, but I would think it's more related to interacting with the device vs. a book which is more passive.

For the projectors - who knows... for me, it's always because I start watching a movie way too late and these Berkline's are really comfortable.
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post #9965 of 9984 Old Yesterday, 07:29 PM
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No, different kind of light spectrum.. And if my wife and Mother-in-law are any kind of test subjects.. the projector puts you to sleep!
So projectors don't put out the blue spectrum that upsets sleep patterns? Could you expand on this a little more please?
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post #9966 of 9984 Old Yesterday, 08:26 PM - Thread Starter
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The vast majority of end users will be watching Blu-ray and HDTV broadcasts or web streamed content. These are all encoded for REC 709 so for most people REC 709 is gospel. If you were to watch it with an LED projector in it's native color gamut, it looks "cartoonish" in appearance. That wouldn't be all that great. All 5 LED projectors I've owned had to be calibrated to get rid of that cartoonish appearance. I'm not even a stickler when it comes to color but to watch REC 709 content in the native color gamut is a bit ridiculous. This is why I thnk the H-K effect really doesn't apply for most people.
I think the H-K effect looks more impressive in the white paper than it does in reality. I sometimes don't mind the overcooked colors of the native gamut but it doesn't convince me to think it looks 100's of lumens brighter than it really it.

so what are your odds on the visibility of the 'iris' on the LS10000? it won't likely get covered in the first round of reviews.
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post #9967 of 9984 Old Yesterday, 09:00 PM
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I think the H-K effect looks more impressive in the white paper than it does in reality. I sometimes don't mind the overcooked colors of the native gamut but it doesn't convince me to think it looks 100's of lumens brighter than it really it.

so what are your odds on the visibility of the 'iris' on the LS10000? it won't likely get covered in the first round of reviews.
It has been covered -- Cine4home (Ekki) said the following concerning the dynamic dimming of the LS10000:

"The factor of 5 is not excessively high and led by our vision tests at no disturbing picture pumps. This is explained by the high native contrast ratio and excellent gamma adjustment that compensates for brightness jumps. The dynamic control of the LS10000 is also designed more conservatively and sacrifices little in favor of the all-white black level improvement. Overall, the dynamic brightness control seems very smart and always found our vision test, a near-optimal balance between black level and image depth. Here, the dynamic laser control demonstrates its potential, especially as it was actually not pushed to their limits. Because in fact works very limited in "real time", but darkens very subtle in some seconds. Probably, this compromise was (dark image scenes reach within 3 seconds of her perfect black value) made in favor of an invisible working gamma correction."

And Art said this in his review:

"Epson though, has that dual blue laser light engine, and it is fast. And it works.

I found the “iris” to be very nicely smooth. BTW Epson still refers to it as an Auto Iris. It should be noted that you can use it as a dual iris, to limit maximum brightness, if needed. I’m not sure how fast it really can dim and brighten, but the phrase “fast enough” comes to mind. When it needs to turn the entire light source off (when the signal calls for a 100% black frame) while viewing credits, there’s some brightening effect, but it seems faster when watching normal content going from a bright scene to a very dark one, or the other direction.

The point is it seems to be a highly competitive “iris” for enhancing black level performance."


What does all of this mean? I guess we'll just have to wait and hear what end users here think of the laser modulation employed by Epson on its LS10000.

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post #9968 of 9984 Old Yesterday, 09:26 PM
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I think the H-K effect looks more impressive in the white paper than it does in reality. I sometimes don't mind the overcooked colors of the native gamut but it doesn't convince me to think it looks 100's of lumens brighter than it really it.

so what are your odds on the visibility of the 'iris' on the LS10000? it won't likely get covered in the first round of reviews.
I think I'm a little more critical than anyone here when it comes to DI performance. For good reason though. I feel that if a company is going to claim a dynamic contrast number as a selling point for a projector then you should be able to use the DI without excessive artifacts to achieve that claimed contrast.

JVC's DI is amazingly good for it's first attempt. I don't have excessive experience with some of Sony's DI's, but from the 40 or so hours I have seen from a number of newer Sony machines (HW50ES, VW90ES, VW600ES, and VW1100ES) I'd say JVCs implementation is actually better overall. I just see it working a lot less. I'd say it's even better than the PD8150/Runco's implementation with most material.

I have about two dozen clips that I use to test a DI's performance (which I've been meaning to send you). I showed Mark about a dozen of them when I was at his house playing around with his 1100ES. The Sony did a good job with them.

I just think a DI's job is to complement the image and not "over do" itself to achieve an astronomical amount of on/off contrast. This is sort of how I felt with the 1100ES's implementation with dark material. It just seemed like it was trying too hard. It just closes down too much sometimes so that when the scene shifts back to an image with less contrast to it, but still a decent amount (not what I'd classify the image to be 'mid or high APL'), you can easily see it opening back up to a more befitting iris position in relation to the 1100ES's native contrast. This is why I like the PD8150's DI so much. It doesn't over do it. It could clamp down a TON more if they engineered it that way, but then it would suffer the same issues the 1100ES showed. I'd more prefer an implementation that gave us a "good" black level, instead of "great" black level if that means with normal content I'd see it working less. This is what Planar's/Runco's DI gives me. Less visible movement even though it's black level isn't as low as the Sony's and I'm perfectly fine with that. But I guess in a world where Sony is trying to fight JVC we can't have just a "good" black level, because then the measured performance would appear terrible in comparison to the current JVCs.

This is what worries me about Epson's implementation. They claim "infinite" contrast because the laser will turn off completely for an all black image. Fade to blacks happen occasionally with movies and I've seen what a true fade to black looks like with a number of LED models I've had here that had a DI mode where the LEDs would also shut off with an all black image. The resulting artifact was an obvious difference between black and the next gradation of black up. And sometimes they were a little slow to turn back on too. I believe this is what is technically referred to as digital 16 and 17. I have an X500 and I know that the difference between 16 and 17 are visibly obviously different and if the iris closed completely on the X500 the resulting artifact when it opened back up would be stupidly obvious and I think this is why JVC didn't opt for a solution like this. They know that's not how to engineer a practical DI. You need to match the native contrast with a befitting multiplier for your dynamic iris in a way that it can come out of a full fade to black or other extremely low APL content without it being obvious. JVC's DI almost pulls this off. Most of the time it's fine, but sometimes the transition is just too slow. I believe this is a limitation of the physical DI device inside the JVCs lens, not something JVC engineers the device to do so slowly. The Planar's physical device does not suffer from this problem. It's an extremely light weight (thin aluminum) device that is attached to a lightning fast actuator. (Zombie, do an A/B with a current gen JVC and the PD8150. Queue up Harry Potter 7 Part 1. The opening scene where it's a close up on Rufus Scrimgeour face. This is a scene that opens from a full fade to black. You'll see what I'm talking about between the two in terms of speed of opening up the DI from it's "black level" position. The same goes for the 1100ES vs PD8150). I hope JVC comes out with a faster lens DI device or place it further back in the light path. Preferably the latter. This would do two things. Raise potential ANSI contrast when the DI is in use and allow them to use a device shaped differently. If JVC is reading this; look into the actuator and shape of the DI device Sim2 uses with their Lumis line of projectors and also where they place it in the light path this would be perfect for you guys .

My local HiFi store is an Epson dealer. They currently have a 600ES in the store that I've demoed a few times now. I'll have to ask if they plan on getting an LS10000. I doubt it though. Unless I can somehow see one locally, I'm in the same boat as you. I won't be able to check it out for a while it seems. I'll have to hear what some end users have to say about the DI's performance once a few of them end up in their hands.

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post #9969 of 9984 Old Yesterday, 09:42 PM
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These of course are all things that would be so much easier to show someone in person. Trying to put some of these things into words can be difficult. I guess what I'm looking for in a DI is performance that I'm not embarrassed to show guests if they come over to watch a movie. There's only like 4 or 5 projectors that have DI's that I'd consider using when guests are over.

Sony VPL-VW1100ES (A couple other Sony models too, not the 600ES)
Planar PD8150
JVC DLA-X500 (and other current models)
Digital Projection HIGHlite Cine 1080p-260 HC
Runco LS-10i (and a few other Runco models)

These are really the only DI's that I truly enjoyed enabling.

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post #9970 of 9984 Old Yesterday, 10:33 PM - Thread Starter
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since i've blacked out my room, I've become more conscious of the iris activity on the various models. I think it's a combination of the large surface area of the HP + the dark room.

with some of the concerts I watch, I usually just clamp the iris on the JVC to ~-8 or so and leave it there. this way the image is stable during the fast APL transitions. The latest Peter Gabriel concert ('Back to Front', a must see for PG fans) will throw some iris for a fit. They are using these huge stage lights on gimbals moving all over the place.

I agree with the iris on the Planar, it's nice and subtle and doesn't really interfere during viewing.

switching to science class - the laser module discussion on the Epson thread is a bit of a sensitive topic, so we can discuss it here with some open conversation. Is that laser going to dim over time in a linear path? x hours @ 80% brightness, another x until 60%, etc.?

At some point during development, they had to lab test this setup to be able to recognize the MTBF so they can appropriately set the marketing/warranty expectations. Can this setup be refined so it can last 30K on high lamp in a future revision or will there limitations in a chassis this size? (ie, laser module components can only take up so much space).
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post #9971 of 9984 Old Today, 07:48 AM
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The vast majority of end users will be watching Blu-ray and HDTV broadcasts or web streamed content. These are all encoded for REC 709 so for most people REC 709 is gospel. If you were to watch it with an LED projector in it's native color gamut, it looks "cartoonish" in appearance. That wouldn't be all that great. All 5 LED projectors I've owned had to be calibrated to get rid of that cartoonish appearance. I'm not even a stickler when it comes to color but to watch REC 709 content in the native color gamut is a bit ridiculous. This is why I thnk the H-K effect really doesn't apply for most people.
I don't disagree with some of the points you make, but even when an LED projector is calibrated to REC 709, the apparent brightness is greater than lamp-centric measuring techniques imply. Certainly if you blow out the color it's going to be a lot brighter, but that's not necessary. I do, however, like having the wider gamut available for current and future sources that go beyond 709 (the future old gospel color standard).
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post #9972 of 9984 Old Today, 08:33 AM
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So projectors don't put out the blue spectrum that upsets sleep patterns? Could you expand on this a little more please?
I would experiment up to a week or so and see what happens not watching the projector an hour before bed if you feel you are not sleeping as well as you could be. As I understand it, any light (expect perhaps red) has the potential to disrupt your natural melatonin release before bed. The brighter the light, the worse. Light is a signal to your brain to awaken.

On the flip side, some people find using light boxes (at 10,000 LUX) to be beneficial first thing in the morning to improve sleep as they don't get enough natural sunlight. It can also be beneficial for depression or seasonal depression in some people. Just don't use these in the evening (obviously) and there are other precautions (eye disease, bi-polar, etc.) using these in some people.


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post #9973 of 9984 Old Today, 10:09 AM
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I would experiment up to a week or so and see what happens not watching the projector an hour before bed if you feel you are not sleeping as well as you could be. As I understand it, any light (expect perhaps red) has the potential to disrupt your natural melatonin release before bed. The brighter the light, the worse. Light is a signal to your brain to awaken.

On the flip side, some people find using light boxes (at 10,000 LUX) to be beneficial first thing in the morning to improve sleep as they don't get enough natural sunlight. It can also be beneficial for depression or seasonal depression in some people. Just don't use these in the evening (obviously) and there are other precautions (eye disease, bi-polar, etc.) using these in some people.

I think having something to fiddle with when you wake up at 3am is more of a problem than the light from smart phones, despite what researchers may say. Projector light doesn't keep my wife wake when she's too tired to finish watching a movie - that's for sure. So count me a skeptic. Then again, I've watched the researchers go from coffee is good to coffee is bad back to coffee is good. Meanwhile, I just keep drinking coffee ( and watching movies on my projectors ) !!

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switching to science class - the laser module discussion on the Epson thread is a bit of a sensitive topic, so we can discuss it here with some open conversation. Is that laser going to dim over time in a linear path? x hours @ 80% brightness, another x until 60%, etc.?

At some point during development, they had to lab test this setup to be able to recognize the MTBF so they can appropriately set the marketing/warranty expectations. Can this setup be refined so it can last 30K on high lamp in a future revision or will there limitations in a chassis this size? (ie, laser module components can only take up so much space).
This is a key question if one is going to push the size limits with a laser pj, imo. We kind of know how a bulb is going to age, and if you miscalculate, or don't calculate at all, you just buy a new bulb.

I am extremely interested in the fade to black capability of these new pj's. As mentioned before, I like to pause various fade to black transition scenes as I come across them and have developed a baseline for comparison. I find it odd how different in performance these black scenes can be from content to content.

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post #9975 of 9984 Old Today, 10:49 AM
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With respect to the laser or iris modulation I suspect the Epson will do a fairly good job coming out of a fade to black because of its high native contrast -- perhaps noticeably better than the VW1100. My gamma corrected G90 did a great job simply because it had no iris. It simply did a full fade to black and then came out of black smoothly so that a fade to black followed by a low APL scene was a smooth transition. My Mits 8000 handles transitions from full fade to black to mid-level APL scenes extremely well. It's the FFTB to low APL scenes where the transition is more abrupt (do to its relatively low native on/off contrast) and therefore noticeable. Considering what I paid for the HC8000/7900 compared to anything else that does a full fade to black it's hard to find fault with it and its 3D is amazing.

Here is how I rate my 3D projectors (3D only) using a HP 2.8 gain screen.

1) Mits HC8000
2) Mits HC7900
3) Sharp XV-Z30000
4) Panasonic PT-RZ470
5) Epson 6010
6) Acer 5360
7) Epson 6020

"I find it odd how different in performance these black scenes can be from content to content."

So do I. Some transfers are solid and don't transition back and forth from full black to something close to it and then back to full black, while others do and are a mess. My HD-DVDs do a much better job with full fades to black than my Blu-rays (which are a mixed bag -- some really good and others terrible).

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post #9976 of 9984 Old Today, 11:09 AM
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switching to science class - the laser module discussion on the Epson thread is a bit of a sensitive topic, so we can discuss it here with some open conversation. Is that laser going to dim over time in a linear path? x hours @ 80% brightness, another x until 60%, etc.?

At some point during development, they had to lab test this setup to be able to recognize the MTBF so they can appropriately set the marketing/warranty expectations. Can this setup be refined so it can last 30K on high lamp in a future revision or will there limitations in a chassis this size? (ie, laser module components can only take up so much space).

Good question. This may take several different models of laser projectors from several manufacturers to have a large enough sample to have a definitive answer. Once JVC, Digital Projection, Sim, Sony and Epson all have laser projectors ( which we would hope they would in the near future ), we should have a much better idea. I'll " take one for the team " when the right laser projector is available and test one in my theater.

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I think having something to fiddle with when you wake up at 3am is more of a problem than the light from smart phones, despite what researchers may say. Projector light doesn't keep my wife wake when she's too tired to finish watching a movie - that's for sure. So count me a skeptic. Then again, I've watched the researchers go from coffee is good to coffee is bad back to coffee is good. Meanwhile, I just keep drinking coffee ( and watching movies on my projectors ) !!
It's going to down come down to the individual. Some people can sleep through anything or fall asleep the second their head hits the pillow no matter what they might have been doing. If you're not having sleep problems, then it doesn't matter. If you are having sleep problems, then proper "sleep hygiene" is worth a consideration - and avoiding any brighter light before bed might be a good idea as there is good science behind it. When I was as having sleep issues, I found/corrected some behaviors that were contributing to it. A lot of people these days do seem to suffer more with sleep issues, and no question hopping on phones and internet late at night is probably contributing in today's fast pace society. The issue with coffee is and has always been caffeine as excessive amounts may causes issues for some being a stimulant, but not for others - and there is always decaf which I usually drink. Too much caffeine gets me too wired.


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post #9978 of 9984 Old Today, 01:47 PM
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It's going to down come down to the individual. Some people can sleep through anything or fall asleep the second their head hits the pillow no matter what they might have been doing. If you're not having sleep problems, then it doesn't matter. If you are having sleep problems, then proper "sleep hygiene" is worth a consideration - and avoiding any brighter light before bed might be a good idea as there is good science behind it. When I was as having sleep issues, I found/corrected some behaviors that were contributing to it. A lot of people these days do seem to suffer more with sleep issues, and no question hopping on phones and internet late at night is probably contributing in today's fast pace society. The issue with coffee is and has always been caffeine as excessive amounts may causes issues for some being a stimulant, but not for others - and there is always decaf which I usually drink. Too much caffeine gets me too wired.

I've spent about 30 days total sleeping in hammocks or portaledges, on the sides of Big Walls ( like El Capitan ), with as much as 2800 vertical feet of air below me. Slept fine. If I can sleep there, a little bit of light isn't keeping me up.






My wife hanging out 700' off the ground on Dihedral Wall, El Cap, Yosemite.
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post #9979 of 9984 Old Today, 02:18 PM
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With respect to the laser or iris modulation I suspect the Epson will do a fairly good job coming out of a fade to black because of its high native contrast -- perhaps noticeably better than the VW1100. My gamma corrected G90 did a great job simply because it had no iris. It simply did a full fade to black and then came out of black smoothly so that a fade to black followed by a low APL scene was a smooth transition. My Mits 8000 handles transitions from full fade to black to mid-level APL scenes extremely well. It's the FFTB to low APL scenes where the transition is more abrupt (do to its relatively low native on/off contrast) and therefore noticeable. Considering what I paid for the HC8000/7900 compared to anything else that does a full fade to black it's hard to find fault with it and its 3D is amazing.

Here is how I rate my 3D projectors (3D only) using a HP 2.8 gain screen.

1) Mits HC8000
2) Mits HC7900
3) Sharp XV-Z30000
4) Panasonic PT-RZ470
5) Epson 6010
6) Acer 5360
7) Epson 6020

"I find it odd how different in performance these black scenes can be from content to content."

So do I. Some transfers are solid and don't transition back and forth from full black to something close to it and then back to full black, while others do and are a mess. My HD-DVDs do a much better job with full fades to black than my Blu-rays (which are a mixed bag -- some really good and others terrible).
This is how I know we'll never see eye to eye on this matter. I had a HC7900DW and played around with the full fade to black DI mode. I thought it was ridiculous. The difference in contrast between fully closed and the next position was starkly different and the end result was comical at best. The same for it's general DI performance. The X500 has basically the same native contrast as the LS10000 and if it suffers from the same DI problems I mentioned in my previous post it won't be convincing enough for me and it would be something I would hate. I hope they don't force you to use the DI like this.

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post #9980 of 9984 Old Today, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
I've spent about 30 days total sleeping in hammocks or portaledges, on the sides of Big Walls ( like El Capitan ), with as much as 2800 vertical feet of air below me. Slept fine. If I can sleep there, a little bit of light isn't keeping me up.
Sleep at 2800 feet in a hammock in a seemingly relaxing, dark location at night is not the same issue as being talked about it. But, as I said before, if you can sleep fine that way with light, it's not an issue for you. Some people can and do. But, it is a fact that light at night is causing issues for some people. There are countless studies (just do a Google) that show it. I've had conversations about it with sleep doctors and their patients. It is just common sense if you think about it from a biological standpoint. Our body and rhythms are based around sunset and sunrise; and darkness is the biological trigger for sleep; light is the awakening factor. It is well established that nighttime light exposure suppresses the production of melatonin --- which is the major hormone secreted by the pineal gland that controls sleep and wake cycles. It's not hard to understand. Sleep problems were relatively uncommon years ago. Modern society in some ways is not conducive to our biological nature and for some, certain steps need to be taken to sleep better IF you are not sleeping well and this is a common one for sleeping issues that exist. And as everyone knows, long term poor sleeping is associated with a number of negative health issues.


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post #9981 of 9984 Old Today, 06:57 PM
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that is all the details that have been posted however it is a bit alarming to see. particularly if reduced use triggered the matter. Ideally he will post more information there is more framework.
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post #9982 of 9984 Old Today, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
This is how I know we'll never see eye to eye on this matter. I had a HC7900DW and played around with the full fade to black DI mode. I thought it was ridiculous. The difference in contrast between fully closed and the next position was starkly different and the end result was comical at best. The same for it's general DI performance. The X500 has basically the same native contrast as the LS10000 and if it suffers from the same DI problems I mentioned in my previous post it won't be convincing enough for me and it would be something I would hate. I hope they don't force you to use the DI like this.
You're right we won't see eye to eye on this but that's O.K. One of the reasons why there are so many successful products is because people have different tastes and that makes the world an interesting place. What might work for me won't work for someone else and sometimes the other way around. That's why so many here own different projectors, speakers and so on. How many projectors have you owned -- how many have you kept for any length off time? Not many I'll bet. I suspect you have a constant need to try out something new and when you do you're disappointed and so its on to the next. It does give you a lot of experience with projector but in the overall scheme of things and what's really important in life -- how important are projectors that will be obsolete in a year at most? This is a hobby for me and fun but there's a lot more to my life than HT projectors -- and I believe that's a good thing.

Yes, you can turn off the dynamic iris on the LS10000. I'm surprised you don't know this. Anyway, if you read the Cine4home review it says:

"For this, we introduced the "Dynamic Contrast" to "Off" and played a full black test pattern."

According to the review there is still some effect even with it turned off. How much of an effect remains I have no idea. Are you planning on buying the LS10000? If not, then why do you care?

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post #9983 of 9984 Old Today, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
You're right we won't see eye to eye on this but that's O.K. One of the reasons why there are so many successful products is because people have different tastes and that makes the world an interesting place. What might work for me won't work for someone else and sometimes the other way around. That's why so many here own different projectors, speakers and so on. How many projectors have you owned -- how many have you kept for any length off time? Not many I'll bet. I suspect you have a constant need to try out something new and when you do you're disappointed and so its on to the next. It does give you a lot of experience with projector but in the overall scheme of things and what's really important in life -- how important are projectors that will be obsolete in a year at most? This is a hobby for me and fun but there's a lot more to my life than HT projectors -- and I believe that's a good thing.
There's a bit of truth in there. Projectors are not important, of course. But it's a hobby I take seriously. Most people have at least one. It gives me something to do in my free time. I suspect most people have a hobby to keep them busy in their free time. Now that I've been out of college for a few years and have a decent paying job I've been able to afford more expensive and more numerous projectors. This has only fueled my interest in checking new ones out. But the list of the ones I want to try out is quite short at the moment. I am not like most people who buy a projector with the intent to own it for a long period of time. I'd say 90% of the projectors I've bought to check out, I kind of knew it wasn't going to stay for very long. Recently I've been buying a lot of them simply because they're good deals and I know there's a bit of profit in it for me once I'm done playing around with it. I've made quite a bit of money over the past year and half buying and then reselling projectors. I also like to check out models I haven't seen in quite a while. It helps resolidify notions that I've made previously about that model in comparison to others. It helps me stay fresh.

Anyways, Merry Christmas to everyone!

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post #9984 of 9984 Old Today, 09:36 PM
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Anyways, Merry Christmas to everyone!
I'll second that and maybe a few lucky members of this forum will had a new pj under the tree to play with.
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