Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 8765 Old 10-23-2012, 08:12 PM
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What!!! A light colored room!!! I can no longer read your reviews... J/king smile.gif

At least the shelf is black... Hehe.
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post #182 of 8765 Old 10-23-2012, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

What!!! A light colored room!!! I can no longer read your reviews... J/king smile.gif

LOL, I was thinking the same thing.

Friends don't let friends use light colored ceilings. biggrin.gif
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post #183 of 8765 Old 10-23-2012, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

All very amusing. I do think the glass beads make the screen rough in optical texture and add what I will call a screen surface artifact which always with respect to HP make me aware that the screen is visable as part of the image. The HP champions just don't want to deal with this. The bottom line is that all screens are flawed, none are FANTASTIC. But in some cases the flaws can be dealt with by say with respect to Studeotec 100 constructing a black pit and keeping the screen size small. If your room isn't ideal and your screen size is Ed Sullivanish (really BIG shew) HP is not a bad choice but it has problems that can't be dealt with (the color shift can of course be dealt with through calibration). The surface texture and bleed can't be. Measuring reference black levels is very difficult but can be accurately done with very expensive instrumentation and not the consumer stuff most are using here which by the way is more than adequate when the meter is calibrated against a reference. By adequate I mean for calibrating but not for measuring absolute black level.

This is pretty funny stuff. All anyone has to do is live with the HP screen for a while. If you don't like it then replace it with something that's not as good and costs ten times as much and be happy! biggrin.gif
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post #184 of 8765 Old 10-23-2012, 08:16 PM
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Zombie,

Go get some black sheets from Walmart ($10), 100 thread count or whatever (200 might be lowest), then just tack them to the ceiling. Maybe that will motivate you once you see the difference. In all reality though he has the HP screen so it's not as bad as it could be (boo boo HP detractors).

@Deja Vu
True, but I just get tired of the same old arguments, the HP has worse contrast argument. When in reality, it just makes it brighter, at least I've never seen any expert claim a screen ruins Native On/Off unless there is something weird going on (like uneven light or reflections), so I don't know where some come up with this stuff. Maybe it is just because I spend too much time in this forum while others spend time watching their projectors.


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post #185 of 8765 Old 10-23-2012, 08:16 PM
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I'm having a hard time grasping different color levels rising linearly from black to white at least from the perspective of what our eyes see rather than a light meter measurement and/or a mathematical calculation.

Maybe my thinking is off here but if a projector like the JVC which has the lower black floor (meaning less light on the screen) the black level isn't going to rise at much at it's best point as a projector with a higher black floor? When I put up a full black screen on my RS2 with the Dalite 2.8 HP screen the black levels only slightly rose. However, when I did the same experiment on an HW30 in BB Magnolia last year the difference between the black levels on the HP 2.8 gain screen was obvious. If black levels rise linearly then why did I see such a difference on the HW30 comparison between the 1.1 gain screen and the HP 2.8 gain screen when I did the same comparison on the RS2 and only a slight difference was seen?
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post #186 of 8765 Old 10-23-2012, 08:16 PM - Thread Starter
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I've got dark panels on the screen side and a darker paint on a divider in between the tiles you see in the background.

settle down there... smile.gif
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post #187 of 8765 Old 10-23-2012, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

I'm having a hard time grasping different color levels rising linearly from black to white at least from the perspective of what our eyes see rather than a light meter measurement and/or a mathematical calculation.
Maybe my thinking is off here but if a projector like the JVC which has the lower black floor (meaning less light on the screen) the black level isn't going to rise at much at it's best point as a projector with a higher black floor? When I put up a full black screen on my RS2 with the Dalite 2.8 HP screen the black levels only slightly rose. However, when I did the same experiment on an HW30 in BB Magnolia last year the difference between the black levels on the HP 2.8 gain screen was obvious. If black levels rise linearly then why did I see such a difference on the HW30 comparison between the 1.1 gain screen and the HP 2.8 gain screen when I did the same comparison on the RS2 and only a slight difference was seen?

I really think this makes a lot of sense when you think about it. If black is the absence of light, a higher gain screen shouldn't amplify any more "absence". White level on the other hand should be amplified as there is a source to be intensified.

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post #188 of 8765 Old 10-23-2012, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

I'm having a hard time grasping different color levels rising linearly from black to white at least from the perspective of what our eyes see rather than a light meter measurement and/or a mathematical calculation.
Maybe my thinking is off here but if a projector like the JVC which has the lower black floor (meaning less light on the screen) the black level isn't going to rise at much at it's best point as a projector with a higher black floor? When I put up a full black screen on my RS2 with the Dalite 2.8 HP screen the black levels only slightly rose. However, when I did the same experiment on an HW30 in BB Magnolia last year the difference between the black levels on the HP 2.8 gain screen was obvious. If black levels rise linearly then why did I see such a difference on the HW30 comparison between the 1.1 gain screen and the HP 2.8 gain screen when I did the same comparison on the RS2 and only a slight difference was seen?

Light is additive...

I googled this because I didn't feel like giving another projector light explanation...

QUESTION?
I turn on a single 90watt light bulb, and measure the lumens at a set distance.
Then I replace the 90watt with 2 45watt light bulbs, and measure
Finally, I replace it with 6 15watt light bulbs and measure.

Assuming constance distance, and lets say incandescent bulbs for all of them.
Will I get a reading of the same lumens?

ANSWER
If you started out by using the number of lumens produced by each, then things would work out as you describe. Even if the lumens were spread over somewhat different spectra, all these systems are linear so their sums would also be linear. Or if you posed the question you did but wanted to know how many watts of power were consumed, it would also work out.

You would, though, have to make sure that you had the same access to all the little bulbs - that is, they can't be hiding each other.


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post #189 of 8765 Old 10-23-2012, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

I really think this makes a lot of sense when you think about it. If black is the absence of light, a higher gain screen shouldn't amplify any more "absence". White level on the other hand should be amplified as there is a source to be intensified.

But then you are saying a hp will increase on/off contrast ratio of a projector... I have a sample of hp 2.8 and can test once I get my rs4810,. I have a feeling the ratio will be the same.

That's if I can even properly measure off the screen with my light meter... Probably not. I normally only ever try from the lens only and only about 1 - 2 feet away to get accurate results.
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post #190 of 8765 Old 10-23-2012, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

I really think this makes a lot of sense when you think about it. If black is the absence of light, a higher gain screen shouldn't amplify any more "absence". White level on the other hand should be amplified as there is a source to be intensified.

If this was true, then we could not use linear mathematics to measure light at all.
We would not be able to use fL, we would need a non-linear system of equations or some measurement system that had a non-linear basis.

Think about it guys, sorry I hate to be right here...


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post #191 of 8765 Old 10-23-2012, 08:23 PM
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I told him he could leave the wall behind the seats white. Its quite a distance away from the screen.


So Zombie give. What did yu notice after you made the side wall black and be clear. are the ceiling tiles now black or do I still have to beat you over the head. Get it? Overhead?

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post #192 of 8765 Old 10-23-2012, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

If this was true, then we could not use linear mathematics to measure light at all.
We would not be able to use fL, we would need a non-linear system of equations.
Think about it guys, sorry I hate to be right here (actually I don't, but that's another story)...

I'm sure you're right, it just makes a lot of sense on what he is saying.

If I magnify pitch black by 20% it's still pitch black. If I magnify light by even a thousandth of a percent, it gets brighter. Now projectors are not capable of projecting a complete black image so this probably is why it's a linear scale applied across the spectrum?

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post #193 of 8765 Old 10-23-2012, 08:39 PM
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What would be really cool is if we could get an infinatly fast organic light sensitive screen that also dims and increases in intensity based off the amount of light hitting it. And I'm not talking full screen at a time, but infinite zones that change at the same time smile.gif

I know... future alien technology stuff. biggrin.gif
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post #194 of 8765 Old 10-23-2012, 08:40 PM
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Yah, an active screen would be awesome. I only wish, then we could have incredible black levels. The technology would be very expensive, but I'm sure it's possible to some degree but that is of course so far beyond my knowledge it's not even funny (now we are going from my basic knowledge of this stuff, deep into PHD level Physics and material information which I know little about).


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post #195 of 8765 Old 10-23-2012, 08:40 PM
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It's a simple calculation. Just directly measure the PJ's lowest black and white peak and multiply it by your screen gain (1.0/1.3 or 2.8). If the manufacturer gave you a correct number, that's what you get from your screen.
If it's not a reference meter then any meter will have some sort of errors especially in low level measurement even if measuring PJs directly. Measuring the black level of screen or PJ is not completely different job. Just put the 0 IRE from your signal source, and measure. That's all.
I know what you mean and I'm very careful when doing calibration job even with my own screens.If you don't believe it, it's your choice.

I'm not an active user here but always enjoyed your posts in this forum of course including Tom Huffman's Chromapure thread and Calman's one as well. I even sometimes ask them support for their software by email.
If you felt it's aggressive and all of a sudden, I'm sorry. But I'd like to share what I know from my calibration experience and will do later.
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Ask Tom Huffman in the Chromapure thread, yes meters lie at low-level light readings, sorry bud but your readings are in error.
Reading a darker black floor automatically induces the error from the meter, because the meter cannot read the difference in contrast at the same accuracy when the black floor isn't the same (heck even meters have some error on white peaks, but more on black floors).
This is exactly why contrast readings have to be taken from the lens and not the screen, end of discussion. Your reading is exactly as I would suspect it to be on a low-level contrast reading on a darker black floor, the result is an improperly amp'd up contrast reading on the darker image. It also coincides with what happens anytime a person takes a contrast reading off the screen (darker readings appear to have much higher contrast, whereas people that did it at the lens with a light meter always measure lower readings for the same scenario - same screen and PJ at same fL).
I see this all the time from reviewers when they claim the contrast difference on Lamp Low was 3x better than Lamp High. It's because they took the reading off the screen with a spectrometer or colorimeter instead of from the lens with a reference level light meter.
If you wish to further push the point of the HP doing worse contrast, then a good idea is to take it up with people that are absolute calibration experts and seeing what they say (Joel Sotti, Tom Huffman, whoever). I'm not one of the absolute experts at calibration, so I'll leave it at that...
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post #196 of 8765 Old 10-23-2012, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

What would be really cool is if we could get an infinatly fast organic light sensitive screen that also dims and increases in intensity based off the amount of light hitting it. And I'm not talking full screen at a time, but infinite zones that change at the same time smile.gif
I know future alien technology stuff.

Screw active screen. I want to project a true 3d image in free space, that completely encompasses the viewers. biggrin.gif

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post #197 of 8765 Old 10-23-2012, 08:43 PM
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@Freebits
It's not that, it's just that you are still incorrect and spreading bad information for people that are trying to learn. The misinformation is now going to be picked up by many people in this forum and repeated hundreds of times, you will see quotes "an ISF cert'd guy said this about the HP"...

The Black Level reading is PRECISELY why you cannot get an accurate reading, so you cannot read the black level accurately even if you are only trying to measure the black floor off the screen (it is the same thing as measuring the contrast, the white peak certainly isn't where the main error is).


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post #198 of 8765 Old 10-23-2012, 08:48 PM
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Sort of like being there without being there. Now a 3D plasma screen would be I think an active screen.

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post #199 of 8765 Old 10-23-2012, 08:49 PM
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Yup, I guess we will just have to buy 140" Plasmas when they get to 4k.
Will all of us then be Plasma guys, haha I wonder.


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post #200 of 8765 Old 10-23-2012, 08:53 PM
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CoderGuy...

If I do take the time to even try to measure from the screen, I would place the projector only about 3 feet from the screen and run on high lamp and full open iris to even possibly get a reliable measurements. Not sure if this would be enough... Never tried it, as logically I only attempt from the lens.
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post #201 of 8765 Old 10-23-2012, 08:55 PM
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Coderguy,
Okay. Last question w.r.t. off the topic.
So what's your point on your black level in HP screen? The black is still the same with the gain 2.8 screen when compared to that of gain 1.0 if every other condition is same?
I'm not talking about the contrast ratio. I mean 0 IRE measurement.
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@Freebits
It's not that, it's just that you are still incorrect and spreading bad information for people that are trying to learn. The misinformation is now going to be picked up by many people in this forum and repeated hundreds of times, you will see quotes "an ISF cert'd guy said this about the HP"...
You need to ask the pro's before spreading the information (I'm sure your a calibrator, but that doesn't mean we should let the misinfo go). I don't mean to sound aggressive or whatever, again my advice is I already explained so go ask Tom Huffman. You're not correct and I've already given all the reasons why.
Sowk will tell you the same thing, I think he was one of the contributors on how to measure it from the lens. There are too many of us in here that know CONTRAST measurements cannot be taken from the screen accurately (not without super super expensive stuff you don't have). Again, your error in the readings is exactly as I would suspect when reading from the screen.
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post #202 of 8765 Old 10-23-2012, 08:55 PM
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I agree Sowk, you have to AMP the brightness way up to even try it.
I noted that earlier as probably the only way to even attempt it.

@Freebits
Another option, possibly just get some screen samples and hold them in front of the projector very close and then re-do the test.

Of course the black level is darker if the white peak is dropped, we're talking about Native On/Off.
You weren't able to equalize the environment, 2.8 gain with angular parameters affecting readings vs. 1.0, how could you have, the IRIS doesn't even equalize that difference since the IRIS modifies the on/off of the projector if you change the aperture setting. When reading such huge variations in light outputs, the meter errors are all over the place off the screen.


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post #203 of 8765 Old 10-23-2012, 09:13 PM
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Coderguy,

Well, there's misunderstanding. I never commented about the native on/off ratio at my posts. It's all about the lowest black level.
If i'm asked about the native contrast ratio, I don't think HP will boost it at all. It'll be the same regardless of the screen's gain.

For the retest, I have done it for various types of screen against Sony HW15/20/30/VW90/95, Epson 3010/5010/6010, Mits HC4000, etc... so it'll not be so different if I do it again.
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post #204 of 8765 Old 10-23-2012, 09:22 PM
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What's so hard to understand about black on a HP screen? Just do the math:
Projector A (with black level of 0.001 on a 1.0 gain screen): 0.001 * 2.8 = 0.0028
Projector B (with black level of 0.010 on a 1.0 gain screen): 0.010 * 2.8 = 0.028

While these values differs by multiplier of 2.8, this increase is not equal. Why is that? Because our perception is logarithmic. 0.001 to 0.0028 is a 17.5% increase (log2(x1)/log2(x2)), while 0.01 to 0.028 is a 28.8% increase. The lower blacks you have the less impact a HP screen will have on it. Let's assume we have phenomenal projector with 0.00001 black floor. Then the HP screen will only boost blacks by 9.8% perceptionally.

P.S. Probably even a lot less than that because I don't use the proper base for the logarithm. I doubt a man can notice a difference between 0.00001 and 0.000028.
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post #205 of 8765 Old 10-23-2012, 09:28 PM
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We were never talking about perception, we were talking about getting accurate readings.
Perception is an ENTIRELY different topic and has nothing to do with this, because perception is the same once the white peak is set the same.

Freebits - Measuring the black floor is the problem, that's where the error is, it doesn't matter if you are talking about native on/off or not, it's the same thing. You said the METER does not lie, but it does (I was just using Native On/Off to show how it lies).


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post #206 of 8765 Old 10-23-2012, 09:38 PM
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Ok, back on topic.

Zombie, what is you view on 2D quality between the Sony and your previous reference the JVC RS55?
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post #207 of 8765 Old 10-23-2012, 09:39 PM
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Agreed, sorry.


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post #208 of 8765 Old 10-23-2012, 09:50 PM
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A spam bot above saves the day by repeating a post smile.gif


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post #209 of 8765 Old 10-23-2012, 09:51 PM
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post #210 of 8765 Old 10-23-2012, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

And don't forget the hc8000 has CIH capability and can not only shift the image up and down within the 16:9 native zone, but it can also resize with no extra equipment. That means you can have 16:9 and 2.35 on a motorized screen without anything else other than outer masking.
So we have a 3D DLP with CIH capability, 6x color wheel, Dual IRIS's, 1200+ Lumens in 3D, and possibly the best blacks of any DLP under $3000 ever. I'm surprised there isn't more talk, we'll see when it comes out.

I would actually love to see the Sharp XV-Z30000 in this shootout. I think it matches all the specs of the Mits 8000 except for the FI (which I would probably never use). And personally I would prefer the slower 5x color wheel in order to have less posterization artifacts when objects are in motion. I haven't seen a reputable review of the contrast ratio, but given Sharp's history with dual-iris implementations there is a good chance it is very good. With Mitsubishi's recent poor performance in 3d I am a little wary of their brightness claims, as I'm assuming that level of brightness will come with a lot of ghosting.

But it is glaring that there are no owners of the PJ posting on the forum. If we could get one included in the shootout I think it would help a bunch of prospective buyers.
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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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