Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 97 - AVS Forum
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post #2881 of 8973 Old 01-10-2013, 04:56 PM
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I want to say it's mostly the higher contrast, but I can't say for sure that's 100% the reason. Perhaps they are using different color wheel designs.
I do know though that higher contrast projectors show more RBE, that is probably one reason why the real high-end projectors tend to really need 6x wheels. The Mits hc4000 was the highest native on/off DLP I ever owned (3,500:1), and it by far has the worst RBE of any 4x wheel projector I've seen.

Viewsonic barely has any, pretty much tied with Benq, though the VS does have 7 segments instead of 6.


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post #2882 of 8973 Old 01-10-2013, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I watched the w7000 in 3D today, no ghosting is definitely an entirely different experience from the JVC (knew that already from watching Epson though). 3D is actually pretty easy on the eyes.
Haven't watched that much stuff yet though, maybe 10 minutes. Hard to compare to Epson without A/B'n. JVC is so broken in 3D it don't matter.

Going back to watch more :P
What JVC did you use to watch 3D? Because I'm not seeing any ghosting at all on my RS4810 (I just watched Avengers 3D). 3D definitely sucked hard on the pre-firmware RS46, but it's a completely different animal on the RS4810. I'm using the JVC RF glasses -- wonder if that might have anything to do with it...?

Granted, I haven't seen 3D on a DLP, but I know ghosting when I see it, and it's virtually non-existent on my RS4810.
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post #2883 of 8973 Old 01-11-2013, 04:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Schwa View Post

What JVC did you use to watch 3D? Because I'm not seeing any ghosting at all on my RS4810 (I just watched Avengers 3D). 3D definitely sucked hard on the pre-firmware RS46, but it's a completely different animal on the RS4810. I'm using the JVC RF glasses -- wonder if that might have anything to do with it...?

Granted, I haven't seen 3D on a DLP, but I know ghosting when I see it, and it's virtually non-existent on my RS4810.

Same here. I have now watched several 3D movies, including Hugo and Avengers, with no ghosting issues.
I am using the JVC RF glasses. My un educated guess is that the brightness through the glasses drops 25%
My set up is a total light controlled bat cave, with black ceiling and very dark brow/maroon walls.
I am projecting onto a 150" Cinewhite 1.1 EliteScreene Lunette, from about 16', projector centered on screen.

I have not measured the lumens, but the projector is so bright that my calibration allowed me to close the lens aperture to -15 in cinema mode.
Also, this projector has very unifom focus accross the whole screen, no bright corners. It also, had almost perfect panel alignment - only adjusted the red panel horizontally by 1/2 pixel.
For 3D I do not have to put it in 3D mode (which is lamp on high) - I get sufficient brightness with stage mode on low lamp.
And again this is on a 150" screen. And no ghosting.
Thus I have plenty of room to raise brightness as the lamp ages.

I really do not see what people are talking about when complaining about lack of lumens in 3D with this projector.
3D is much, much brighter than in movie theaters.
The complainers either do not have light control in their HT or they want to see Best Buy type, uncalibrated cranked -up plasma like brightness, that is completely in-accurate.

Great projector for both 2D and 3D (plenty bright and no ghosting)
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post #2884 of 8973 Old 01-11-2013, 06:43 AM - Thread Starter
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discussing 3D brightness is a subjective topic which is why we use lumen measurements as a basic value to compare the various projectors in the shootout.

It's wrong to assume that a brighter 3D projector is going to look like some blown out demo mode in the big box stores. The Epson 5020 is substantially brighter than the JVC RS4810. It's not just brighter, it's better overall when directly compared to one another. Same thing with the HW50.

Some folks might be ok w/ ~600 lumens in 3D on a large screen, others may prefer 1400 lumens on an HP screen, etc. This is why we use the measurements so folks can get a basic idea of how they compete with one another.
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post #2885 of 8973 Old 01-11-2013, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Dionyz View Post

no bright corners
I have one bright corner on my RS4810 (lower left) but it's the best of the three recent JVC samples I've seen. Since it seems hit or miss with bright corners I think I'd better leave well enough alone since my focus uniformity is perfect, convergence is very good, and color uniformity, while not perfect, is far, FAR better than my VW60's ever was. Honestly I'm getting tired of focusing on the anomalies and would like to just watch some movies. smile.gif
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post #2886 of 8973 Old 01-11-2013, 07:30 AM
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This thread is dangerous. Now I'm gonna be looking for all these problems on my RS4810. Any little thing I see now, is gonna set me off.
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post #2887 of 8973 Old 01-11-2013, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post

This thread is dangerous. Now I'm gonna be looking for all these problems on my RS4810. Any little thing I see now, is gonna set me off.

Or...you could just put a film on and enjoy it instead of looking for defects. Even the Sony VW1000ES seems to have issues, so I don't think we can expect a 'perfect' projector at our budget. In fact I'm sure that some models with six zeros on their price tag probably have issues too if you looked hard enough. You could drive yourself mad otherwise. wink.gif

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post #2888 of 8973 Old 01-11-2013, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

Or...you could just put a film on and enjoy it instead of looking for defects. Even the Sony VW1000ES seems to have issues, so I don't think we can expect a 'perfect' projector at our budget. In fact I'm sure that some models with six zeros on their price tag probably have issues too if you looked hard enough. You could drive yourself mad otherwise. wink.gif

Exactly. But I know how I am, if I know what to look for, I can't help but look for it. I'm already partially crazy for it. I'm more picky with audio then video so I'm sure whatever short comings I may find, imagined or not, will soon be forgotten with my preoccupation in the audio department.
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post #2889 of 8973 Old 01-11-2013, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

Or...you could just put a film on and enjoy it instead of looking for defects. Even the Sony VW1000ES seems to have issues, so I don't think we can expect a 'perfect' projector at our budget. In fact I'm sure that some models with six zeros on their price tag probably have issues too if you looked hard enough. You could drive yourself mad otherwise. wink.gif


I don't think anyone, in good conscience, could complain about the VW1000ES smile.gif
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post #2890 of 8973 Old 01-11-2013, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

Or...you could just put a film on and enjoy it instead of looking for defects. Even the Sony VW1000ES seems to have issues, so I don't think we can expect a 'perfect' projector at our budget.
Excellent advice and good point. I did get around to watching some of The Avengers in 3D last night and the projector indeed looked fantastic. smile.gif
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post #2891 of 8973 Old 01-11-2013, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Dionyz View Post

Same here. I have now watched several 3D movies, including Hugo and Avengers, with no ghosting issues.
I am using the JVC RF glasses. My un educated guess is that the brightness through the glasses drops 25%
My set up is a total light controlled bat cave, with black ceiling and very dark brow/maroon walls.
I am projecting onto a 150" Cinewhite 1.1 EliteScreene Lunette, from about 16', projector centered on screen.

I have not measured the lumens, but the projector is so bright that my calibration allowed me to close the lens aperture to -15 in cinema mode.
Also, this projector has very unifom focus accross the whole screen, no bright corners. It also, had almost perfect panel alignment - only adjusted the red panel horizontally by 1/2 pixel.
For 3D I do not have to put it in 3D mode (which is lamp on high) - I get sufficient brightness with stage mode on low lamp.
And again this is on a 150" screen. And no ghosting.
Thus I have plenty of room to raise brightness as the lamp ages.

I really do not see what people are talking about when complaining about lack of lumens in 3D with this projector.
3D is much, much brighter than in movie theaters.
The complainers either do not have light control in their HT or they want to see Best Buy type, uncalibrated cranked -up plasma like brightness, that is completely in-accurate.

Great projector for both 2D and 3D (plenty bright and no ghosting)

First of all, all that really matters is that YOU are happy with your setup. If you are truly happy with what you are seeing for 3d, more power to you and enjoy! The ultimate goal for all of us is to be happy with our setups whatever we deem that to be. Having said that............

The great thing about the Zombie threads is they take posts that are largely subjective like the one quoted above and put it into perspective. Terms like "so bright", "sufficient brightness", etc.........are VERY subjective comments. I would also point out that issues like ghosting and flicker become harder to see the dimmer the image gets. In the above quoted scenario, 3d brightness is so low that I am betting these type of issues could easily go unnoticed to the untrained eye especially. I mean no disrespect by that, it is just the facts if we actually broke down what kind of brightness behind the glasses Dionyz is getting in his setup. This is not to suggest that JVC has NOT made gains as far as reduced ghosting goes, but that has come at some expense which is well documented at this point.

To throw out another scenario with some subjective thoughts to show why subjectivity is largely useless I will use my own setup. Right now I am using a BenQ W7000 for 3d in a HP 2.8 setup where I am getting ~2.4 real world gain. I am squeezing every bit of brightness I can out of the projector and would still welcome more if I had it on tap. Compared to the setup above, I am running a smaller screen (~126" 1.78 image to fill my 2.35 screen vs 150"), MUCH more screen gain (1.1 vs ~2.4) and with the way we are both running our projectors, I am getting somewhere around 2.5x-3x (going off the fact that the 7000 is putting out ~1100 high lamp lumens in 3d and the 4810 ~560 in high lamp, but the poster above is running low) the light output from the projector alone. If you add all this up, I am getting a MUCH, MUCH brighter image and subjectively I would say my image is "pretty bright" and "bright enough", but I would absolutely welcome another ~1000 lumens before the glasses to play with. Some of these lumens I would use right off the bat and some I would love to have in the tank for reserve as the lamp ages. In light of all this, there is absolutely no way I could be satisfied with the type of brightness that Dionyz is getting. What he is calling "sufficient brightness", I would no doubt be VERY disappointed with compared to what I am used to. This large swing of subjective interpretation as far as what is "bright enough" is EXACTLY why things like lumens measurements, through the glasses shots, etc........are SO valuable as they take this large degree of subjective swing from one user to another out of the equation.

We also have to remember that we are in the comparison thread where we break all these units down good and bad to really understand what they are doing vs one another. There is no perfect projector that does both 2d AND 3d the "best". As far as the JVCs go this year, it is obvious they have improved ghosting, but it has come at the expense of light output, contrast and detail from the tests posted. The fact is that the 4810 is putting out almost 1/2 of what the Sony is in 3d, IS putting out 1/2 the 7000 3d lumens and the Epson is literally 2.5x brighter (!!!) in comparison at 1400 lumens. Those are not small differences. Factor in crosstalk, flicker and motion and everyone can come to their own conclusions, but it is pretty obvious from my perspective that JVC is OVERALL bringing up the rear yet again as far as 3d goes. 2d is a different story.

I absolutely love my RS45 for 2d just like my RS40 and RS1 before it, but 3d needs a major overall in the JVCs when you start comparing these units to the competition. What JVC has done this year is not a fix, but a workaround squeeze another year out of the 3d band aid approach and a lot of us owners who have been on board the last two years are just not impressed (myself included). I really thought this would be the year that JVC did that overhaul going off their every 2 year history of making significant changes to their projectors, but apparently not. I would have to think that the models announced at Cedia this year WILL get that much needed overhaul, but time will tell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuntman_Mike View Post

I don't think anyone, in good conscience, could complain about the VW1000ES smile.gif

Oh yeah? smile.gif If someone wants to send me one, I am sure I will find something I dont like. There is no perfect projector at ANY price. Just like there is no perfect screen, speaker, etc.............

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post #2892 of 8973 Old 01-11-2013, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post

This thread is dangerous. Now I'm gonna be looking for all these problems on my RS4810. Any little thing I see now, is gonna set me off.

You might consider medication.

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post #2893 of 8973 Old 01-11-2013, 08:12 AM
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We have 3D lumen measurements for the hd33 and Optoma hd8300 now as below. With some torch calibration trickery you might be able to boost that about 10% or more. Optoma hd33 3D lumens looking good, hd8300's 3D lumens a bit on the low side. I guess I'm glad I got the Benq instead of the Optoma hd8300 considering the Optoma will have no flexibility to be mounted as low to near center gain of HP as the Benq, meaning for me the Benq is almost 2x brighter!

HD33: 925 lumens in 3D
HD8300: 770 lumens in 3D
--I would like to see more measurements though, considering most reviewers measured hd8300 at 800-1000 in 3D mode, that said we can safely say it's probably 750-1000 lumens max torched in 3D.

There you have it folks, after asking more than 20 times from owners to measure the hd33 and hd8300 in 3D, someone finally did!

Benq w7000 is 1000-1100 (I didn't measure my Benq lumens yet, did take a quick fL measurement so going by Zombie's earlier number)

The hd33 for people with non-HP screens is pretty close to the w7000, otherwise the w7000 beats all the others we know about in brightness except the Epsons I think, and not sure about Benq w1070.


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post #2894 of 8973 Old 01-11-2013, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Oh yeah? smile.gif If someone wants to send me one, I am sure I will find something I dont like. There is no perfect projector at ANY price. Just like there is no perfect screen, speaker, etc.............

I didn't say that it was perfect. Nothing is. I'm just saying that what ever is "wrong" with it would be so minor compared to all the good, and considering I, and probably some other demented individuals, would give their left test... (you know where I'm going lol) to have one, I don't think it would be good form to complain about it not being completely perfect.

Now if they were doing it so that us mere mortals who didn't have one, feel like we aren't missing anything, then I guess that would be OK. Altruistic even lol.

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post #2895 of 8973 Old 01-11-2013, 08:17 AM
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You have to wait until the lamp ages a few hundred hours on the JVC, then it gets much much more intense. I can even see a tiny bit more ghosting on an Epson when the lamp ages. On my Benq DLP, ZERO.

DLP is the only projector type that isn't haunted these days smile.gif


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post #2896 of 8973 Old 01-11-2013, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

We have 3D lumen measurements for the hd33 and Optoma hd8300 now as below. With some torch calibration trickery you might be able to boost that about 10% or more. Optoma hd33 3D lumens looking good, hd8300's 3D lumens a bit on the low side. I guess I'm glad I got the Benq instead of the Optoma hd8300 considering the Optoma will have no flexibility to be mounted as low to near center gain of HP as the Benq, meaning for me the Benq is almost 2x brighter!

HD33: 925 lumens in 3D
HD8300: 770 lumens in 3D
--I would like to see more measurements though, considering most reviewers measured hd8300 at 800-1000 in 3D mode, that said we can safely say it's probably 750-1000 lumens max torched in 3D.

There you have it folks, after asking more than 20 times from owners to measure the hd33 and hd8300 in 3D, someone finally did!

Benq w7000 is 1000-1100 (I didn't measure my Benq lumens yet, did take a quick fL measurement so going by Zombie's earlier number)

The hd33 for people with non-HP screens is pretty close to the w7000, otherwise the w7000 beats all the others we know about in brightness except the Epsons I think, and not sure about Benq w1070.


Going off of Art's review of the 1070, even though he never listed the lumens in 3D, based on the calibrated lumens in 2D, I think you could reasonably infer that it would be brighter than the w7000.

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post #2897 of 8973 Old 01-11-2013, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuntman_Mike View Post

I didn't say that it was perfect. Nothing is. I'm just saying that what ever is "wrong" with it would be so minor compared to all the good, and considering I, and probably some other demented individuals, would give their left test... (you know where I'm going lol) to have one, I don't think it would be good form to complain about it not being completely perfect.

Now if they were doing it so that us mere mortals who didn't have one, feel like we aren't missing anything, then I guess that would be OK. Altruistic even lol.


You are right and I hear what you are saying. Considering how much that machine costs though and knowing myself, I would be EXTRA picky. tongue.gif I still think someone should send me one so I can find out for sure.............





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post #2898 of 8973 Old 01-11-2013, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuntman_Mike View Post

Going off of Art's review of the 1070, even though he never listed the lumens in 3D, based on the calibrated lumens in 2D, I think you could reasonably infer that it would be brighter than the w7000.

We can't tell from the calibrated modes, we need measurements. The w7000 is about 1800-2000 lumens in TORCH 2D which is basically the same in 2D as the w1070 (close), yet the w7000 only does 1000-1100 or so in 3D, both made by the same MFR, so we have no idea. This is a common trend with some DLP's as to having a major lumens drop in 3d mode even before the glasses, more so than LCD and LCOS (although they too have some drop).

You can't infer anything, but you can guess. My guess is that the w1070 in 3D is a bit brighter than the w7000, but we have no idea for sure or how much.


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post #2899 of 8973 Old 01-11-2013, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post


You can't infer anything, but you can guess. My guess is that the w1070 in 3D is a bit brighter than the w7000, but we have no idea for sure or how much.

Won't matter for HP owners... the offset more than negates any slight brightness bump.


edit: on the offset note, the 1080st has smidge less offset (105% +/-5%) than the 1070 (110-130% +/-5%). with the brightness and placement, the 1080st appears to make a nice living room PJ for coffee table placement.

"A wide screen just makes a bad film twice as bad. "
-Samuel Goldwyn

I wonder what he'd think about 3D IMAX?
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post #2900 of 8973 Old 01-11-2013, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

First of all, all that really matters is that YOU are happy with your setup. If you are truly happy with what you are seeing for 3d, more power to you and enjoy! The ultimate goal for all of us is to be happy with our setups whatever we deem that to be. Having said that............

To throw out another scenario with some subjective thoughts to show why subjectivity is largely useless I will use my own setup. Right now I am using a BenQ W7000 for 3d in a HP 2.8 setup where I am getting ~2.4 real world gain. I am squeezing every bit of brightness I can out of the projector and would still welcome more if I had it on tap. Compared to the setup above, I am running a smaller screen (~126" 1.78 image to fill my 2.35 screen vs 150"), MUCH more screen gain (1.1 vs ~2.4) and with the way we are both running our projectors, I am getting somewhere around 2.5x-3x (going off the fact that the 7000 is putting out ~1100 high lamp lumens in 3d and the 4810 ~560 in high lamp, but the poster above is running low) the light output from the projector alone. If you add all this up, I am getting a MUCH, MUCH brighter image and subjectively I would say my image is "pretty bright" and "bright enough", but I would absolutely welcome another ~1000 lumens before the glasses to play with. Some of these lumens I would use right off the bat and some I would love to have in the tank for reserve as the lamp ages. In light of all this, there is absolutely no way I could be satisfied with the type of brightness that Dionyz is getting. What he is calling "sufficient brightness", I would no doubt be VERY disappointed with compared to what I am used to. This large swing of subjective interpretation as far as what is "bright enough" is EXACTLY why things like lumens measurements, through the glasses shots, etc........are SO valuable as they take this large degree of subjective swing from one user to another out of the equation.

We also have to remember that we are in the comparison thread where we break all these units down good and bad to really understand what they are doing vs one another. There is no perfect projector that does both 2d AND 3d the "best". As far as the JVCs go this year, it is obvious they have improved ghosting, but it has come at the expense of light output, contrast and detail from the tests posted. The fact is that the 4810 is putting out almost 1/2 of what the Sony is in 3d, IS putting out 1/2 the 7000 3d lumens and the Epson is literally 2.5x brighter (!!!) in comparison at 1400 lumens. Those are not small differences. Factor in crosstalk, flicker and motion and everyone can come to their own conclusions, but it is pretty obvious from my perspective that JVC is OVERALL bringing up the rear yet again as far as 3d goes. 2d is a different story.

Like you say thing are subjective.
Also, my aperture is at -15 with my 150" screen and 16' throw distance, after calibration in 2D. Thus this is not subjective.

Are you trying to blind yourself?
I would have to put on sunglasses to watch 3D with a smaller high gain screen like yours.

However, it would appear that your desire for another 1,000 lumens (2,000 lumens total) in 3D is purely subjective (goal of Best Buy type image - max brightness at any cost)
Without black ceilings and walls, wall reflections would be horrible.

Could it be difference in 3D glasses?
If your glasses cut down lumens to the eye by 80% then you are seeing equivalent of 200 lumens (1,000 * 20% = 200) through your glasses.
If the JVC RF glasses reduce brightness by 25% (apparent to me - not measured) then I could be seeing 420 lumens (560 * 75% =420). Could be 50% reduction, thus 280 lumens through glasses (however does not appear to me to cut it so much)
Thus you would need 2000 lumens to get 400 lumens through glasses, which would put you at the JVC levels (25% light loss through glasses).

However, in the end, it is subjective. I am very happy with both the 2D and 3D performance, and will be spending my time enjoying movies rather than looking for defects or discussing whether one projector is better than another.
To me it is all about enjoying the movies and NOT about analyzing and criticizing to death (Zombie - all due respect to you. Your efforts are invaluable.)
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post #2901 of 8973 Old 01-11-2013, 08:41 AM
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I am guessing however that I can get the Benq w7000 up to around 1200 to 1400 lumens in 3D with some service menu changes. However, I have to be careful because I locked the menu up accidentally from changing some stuff in the SM (its buggy). I had to turn PJ off and back on, for a sec thought I bricked the PJ. What was funny was that the only button that worked on the remote was the MENU button (even the OFF button didn't work). On the projector itself (the PJ buttons), the menu button and OFF button worked, but the arrow keys still wouldn't work until I turned it off and back on.

Fun stuff, service menu brick'n is always exciting!
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Originally Posted by Dionyz View Post

Like you say thing are subjective.
Also, my aperture is at -15 with my 150" screen and 16' throw distance, after calibration in 2D. Thus this is not subjective.

However, in the end, it is subjective. I am very happy with both the 2D and 3D performance, and will be spending my time enjoying movies rather than looking for defects or discussing whether one projector is better than another.
To me it is all about enjoying the movies and NOT about analyzing and criticizing to death (Zombie - all due respect to you. Your efforts are invaluable.)

Try watching Grand Canyon adventures on the JVC after you have at least 100-200 hours on the lamp, I can even see some ghosting on the Epson in this title.
You're out-numbered, 9 of 10 of us don't like the JVC for 3D, it is ok on a newish lamp on SOME titles, but give it time...

Ghosting increases by double to triple after 300-500 hours.


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post #2902 of 8973 Old 01-11-2013, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by dougri View Post

Won't matter for HP owners... the offset more than negates any slight brightness bump.

The w1070 can be floor mounted 3" below the screen near the coffee table (fairly short throw), so giving near the same gain as most of us can get from the w7000 in our setups.

So the above will only apply for the 2.8 gain HP or perfect center-mounters on the 2.4.

I doubt I will ever mount my Benq perfectly centered to the screen even with my HP, no place to put it.
For those of us that have our PJ's 15 feet+ back, they have to be high enough to clear our heads, but we still get 1.4 to 1.8 gain depending how high we put it exactly.

Even if I mounted a w1070 3" above screen instead of floor mounting, to me it's only a difference of 1.4 gain vs. 1.8 gain I can get with the w7000 at max.

That said, the w1070 doesn't fit in my room very well regardless, the w7000 is more flexible on longer placements, because I sit so close to the screen, but for some it will.


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post #2903 of 8973 Old 01-11-2013, 08:48 AM
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You might consider medication.

I'm not the only one on here that needs to consider medication
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post #2904 of 8973 Old 01-11-2013, 09:03 AM
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I don't think anyone, in good conscience, could complain about the VW1000ES smile.gif

Well I don't think I would either having seen one recently, but some are over on the owners thread. eek.gif
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Originally Posted by Schwa View Post

Excellent advice and good point. I did get around to watching some of The Avengers in 3D last night and the projector indeed looked fantastic. smile.gif

This is my 5th projector and the one that I've spent the least amount of time adjusting/calibrating/fine tuning. Some of this is because I've a slightly better idea of what to do than I did 5-6 years ago, but mostly due to the Lumagen/Chromapure autocal and the fact that the image looks great on the X35 that I just watch it and enjoy. The only thing I need to do is improve my room as that will make more difference to the picture now than any further tweaking.

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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post #2905 of 8973 Old 01-11-2013, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Schwa View Post

I have one bright corner on my RS4810 (lower left) but it's the best of the three recent JVC samples I've seen. Since it seems hit or miss with bright corners I think I'd better leave well enough alone since my focus uniformity is perfect, convergence is very good, and color uniformity, while not perfect, is far, FAR better than my VW60's ever was. Honestly I'm getting tired of focusing on the anomalies and would like to just watch some movies. smile.gif
You have gone thru three already? I am still waiting for Avad to issue me a rma for my one and only and I was billed for it December 7th!
I would like to move on and start watching some movies
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post #2906 of 8973 Old 01-11-2013, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dionyz View Post

Like you say thing are subjective.
Also, my aperture is at -15 with my 150" screen and 16' throw distance, after calibration in 2D. Thus this is not subjective.

Are you trying to blind yourself?
I would have to put on sunglasses to watch 3D with a smaller high gain screen like yours.

However, it would appear that your desire for another 1,000 lumens (2,000 lumens total) in 3D is purely subjective (goal of Best Buy type image - max brightness at any cost)
Without black ceilings and walls, wall reflections would be horrible.

Could it be difference in 3D glasses?
If your glasses cut down lumens to the eye by 80% then you are seeing equivalent of 200 lumens (1,000 * 20% = 200) through your glasses.
If the JVC RF glasses reduce brightness by 25% (apparent to me - not measured) then I could be seeing 420 lumens (560 * 75% =420). Could be 50% reduction, thus 280 lumens through glasses (however does not appear to me to cut it so much)
Thus you would need 2000 lumens to get 400 lumens through glasses, which would put you at the JVC levels (25% light loss through glasses).

However, in the end, it is subjective. I am very happy with both the 2D and 3D performance, and will be spending my time enjoying movies rather than looking for defects or discussing whether one projector is better than another.
To me it is all about enjoying the movies and NOT about analyzing and criticizing to death (Zombie - all due respect to you. Your efforts are invaluable.)

Blind myself? After cutting out ~80% of the light by putting the glasses on, the image is certainly not blinding...........not even close. Your 25% guess as far as your glasses go is WAY off by the way. It is much more than that. By the time you actually figured out the brightness you are getting behind the glasses with your setup, it would calculate out to VERY low foot lamberts that most would not be happy with. Again though, if you are happy with your brightness that is all that matters. Those of us who do desire a brighter image though do not deserve the designation of "Best Buy image seeker". tongue.gif

As far as you calculations go, you are not even starting out with 560 lumens to begin with in 3d since you are using low lamp. Factor in ~75% glasses reduction along with your screen size/gain and I am honestly surprised (even in light of subjectivity) anyone could call this "bright enough", but again all that matters is your happiness. Most would not be happy with that kind of 3d brightness though, especially with the competition putting out MUCH more light in comparison with as good or better crosstalk performance, better flicker performance and in some cases better motion. Factor in all these things, and JVCs 3d is not that impressive vs the competition. Again, not trying to trash JVC, but this is the comparison thread where we break it all down.

I think it is great you are happy, but then why come into the comparison thread and cause waves with silly implications about Best Buy and the like? confused.gif If you are happy, be happy! This thread IS for comparison purposes and if you cant deal with finding out how your projector TRULY compares by objective means, then it would be best to stay out of this thread in all due respect.

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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post #2907 of 8973 Old 01-11-2013, 09:14 AM
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I agree for most the JVC isn't nearly bright enough in 3D.

For the Benq, at least until my w7000 lamp ages, I don't need any extra brightness in 3D on the w7000 in my batcave on a 106" HP - 2.4 gain, and I am a brightness freak.
I have to keep the "manual IRIS" on even in 3D mode and I don't even have the projector perfectly center mounted (it's level with top of screen so I'm not getting max gain), so maybe you got some lamp variation. If I turn the IRIS completely off, it is uncomfortably bright in 3D and absolutely blinding in 2D.

The issue though is within 500 more lamp hours, I expect that to change significantly.

I had multiple DLP's of the same type and once had a lamp that started out 35% less bright than the other on an hc4000. The average variation was like 15%.

Overall though, FI is the main life saver, I will never watch 3D again without FI, it makes ALL the difference, and I hate FI in 2D 95% of the time.


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post #2908 of 8973 Old 01-11-2013, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I agree for most the JVC isn't nearly bright enough in 3D.

For the Benq, at least until my w7000 lamp ages, I don't need any extra brightness in 3D on the w7000 in my batcave on a 106" HP - 2.4 gain, and I am a brightness freak.
I have to keep the "manual IRIS" on even in 3D mode and I don't even have the projector perfectly center mounted (it's level with top of screen so I'm not getting max gain), so maybe you got some lamp variation. If I turn the IRIS completely off, it is uncomfortably bright in 3D and absolutely blinding in 2D.

The issue though is within 500 more lamp hours, I expect that to change significantly.

I had multiple DLP's of the same type and once had a lamp that started out 35% less bright than the other on an hc4000. The average variation was like 15%.

I have had 2 7000s here at this point and both subjectively looked the same as far as brightness. I dont think there is any issue with my lamp. Again, this is subjective and I am also throwing a larger image vs what you are which is using up more of the light. Dont get my posts wrong, I am good with the brightness I am getting and it is not "dim" from my perspective for 3d. I would be a liar to tell you that I would not like more though for my tastes once the glasses go on and especially to combat lamp age.

I do agree with you though that the damn thing is BLINDING in 2d on the HP 2.8, especially when I am zoomed down to fit my ~94" 1.78 image! eek.gif It is flat out uncomfortable in this situation. Zoomed out throwing a 126" image the image is still a bit bright, but manageable. I need to read over your posts to see exactly how to tame the brightness here though as I do find it a bit bright for 2d. I wont be doing a ton of 2d with the projector though, so not a huge priority. I might be shooting you a PM once I try this out if I have some questions.

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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post #2909 of 8973 Old 01-11-2013, 09:30 AM
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How big are you projecting the 3D image when you say "want more brightness" and are you in a bat-cave?

I estimate I am seeing at least 14-15 fL for 3D after the glasses EVEN with the IRIS closed at 8 min, that is pretty bright in a batcave. If I turn the IRIS off, it's probably closer to 20 fL+.

Thank god for the Benq IRIS, I think the Benq IRIS for 2D + 3D FI makes this projector a formidable contender even for someone wanting to go with a single PJ solution if they are not picky about blacks. Though the Sony hw50 and Epson 5020 are more well rounded, the Benq is fine for everything but darker stuff.


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post #2910 of 8973 Old 01-11-2013, 09:34 AM
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The one thing we don't talk about on this thread is SBS 3D! No problem for the DLPs, except my Epson looks much better with this material than my Acer -- the Acer never ghosts, but the overall image on the Epson is just better. I have a number of sbs 3D movies and I believe 3D HDTV is also sbs. Question -- how do these projectors perform with sbs material?

Having now owned 11 projectors I have come to the conclusion that what I thought was "great" a year or two ago I could not live with today. As far as lumens go -- for 3D you can't have enough. All these lamps age and lose brightness. What looks bright enough today won't in six months or so.

BTW I don't think the Sony 1000 is all that bright in 3D and I'll bet I'd prefer the Sony 50 or Epson 5020 to it for 3D. Mark, who loves to bad mouth the HP screen whenever he gets the chance is apparently buying an HP for 3D. biggrin.gif
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