Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 337 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #10081 of 10293 Old 12-31-2014, 04:03 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Steve, if this is the case, then why do you continue to post in the various projector threads? This is the nature of all forums on a given topic. On the various AV forums, people will discuss the hardware and also movie watching as well, as we just did for an entire page discussing classic sci-fi movies.

I have 4 different projectors that are all great in their own way. When watching a movie, I pick the model that will suite the content best for my preferences. This must make me a huge hardware perv.

btw, that that term in general would be considered quite derogatory and offensive. Go post that in the speaker and subwoofer threads and see how that goes with the enthusiasts.
I think most intelligent people know the difference between the correct usage of the word 'perverse' and the implication that someone is 'a perv'. Are you suggesting speaker/subwoofer geeks are all a bit thick?


I discuss projectors in these (and other) forums because I think it's always best to keep up with the changing face of projector technology if you're likely to be in the market for one at any time in the future.


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post #10082 of 10293 Old 12-31-2014, 04:07 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
That same puzzlement could be aimed at any hobby or enthusiast, all depending on one's own perspective.

To my wife cars are only a means to an end - getting from A to B. But obviously there are many car enthusiasts who think otherwise, and find reward in appreciating the cars themselves - hence car collectors, or even people who are so interested in how cars work, they work on building or altering cars themselves.

I see a watch as a means to an end - my cheap digital watch tells me time, so why would I spend time thinking about what other watch to buy? But...you have people really into watches who buy many, appreciating the charms of each different one. I have some friends who are fascinated with knives, and own all sorts of them. I have no idea what could be so interesting about knives, but there you go.

Same with audio hobbyists - some people just use audio gear as a way to listen to music; others are fascinated by the technology itself, try lots of different speakers, amps, learning about why
things work the way they do, sometimes getting into building their own speakers, amps etc. Why, when you can just go buy it from a store? Because that's the nature of the enthusiast. It's typically been a guy thing at least in the past - fascinated by understanding how the technology works, and playing with it. Though it may be an inaccurate stereotype in this day, there was the classic line about how women and men respond to technology, such as giving each a computer. The woman asks "what can this do for me?" whereas the man asks "what can this DO?" (That certainly describes my wife and me - give her in iPhone and she uses it minimally, calling, emailing - just things she already wanted to do and the phone helps her do it, whereas I'm like "what can I DO with this thing?" exploring everything it can do, pimping it out with every app, exploring its capabilities is just a pleasure in of itself).

So what I'm getting at is that there's nothing particularly "perverse" in many people being fascinated by technology in of itself, or as an adjunct to their using it to enjoy a medium. In fact it's often those who are so enthusiastic about understanding the technology of the normal "means to an end" bit of gear, who we can thank for later on designing advances in that technology - the people who were fascinated enough by the technology to say "How can this be better?."

People on this forum sit along a spectrum of technology enthusiasts - in fact, it's mostly seen as a gathering of
enthusiasts who are keen about the technology of AV gear, hence the name of the forum, right? Most of my friends couldn't conceive of even bothering spending their time thinking about the amount of technical geekery and interest in technology that went into my home theater build. But then, if I felt the same, I wouldn't have this wonderful home theater that I'm enjoying (and which my friends think is amazing - they just don't know why or how it got that way).

By the lights of the average consumer, also of the means-to-an-end point of view regarding display and audio technology, the time we at AVs spend thinking about our choices, learning about the technology and discussing it on a forum like this is "perverse," and that of course would include you, given all the time you devote here as well.

ETA: and as others have said, we can both seek to understand, appreciate and discuss the technology behind our choices, while also enjoying movies. I'm a life long fan of film, watching pretty much every single night, and if every couple years a new projector will make the images look even better and I can afford it, this hardly takes away from my enjoyment of movie watching.

Cheers,
Of course you're right (as usual, Rich).


Each individual has their own motivation, and it's their money. It's certainly not for me to tell them what they can and can't enjoy or what to spend their money on.


But to re-iterate, from my perspective, it's about the films first.


For me.


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post #10083 of 10293 Old 12-31-2014, 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Then they haven't found or cannot afford a good projector.

I watched two movies back to back last night with the X500 and ISCO IIIL in place and thoroughly enjoyed watching both. At no time was I "bothered" by the presentation given by my equipment.
I wouldn't pay almost £5K for a projector like the X500 - the motion handling simply isn't good enough (for me).


I do understand though that, like RBE, it affects different people in different ways.


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post #10084 of 10293 Old 12-31-2014, 04:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
If and when such a DLP projector comes along I will definetly go back to DLP as this tech has so many advantages, but the poor contrast and blacklevel has kept me away from it for many years.
I wonder if we're getting to a state where there's a race to the finish line.


DLP needs to sort out RBE, black levels, etc.


LCD-based needs to sort out motion handling.


If Sony can release a model with DLP-esque motion handling, or...well vice versa, you get the idea, I think all the cards will start to fall one way and, unless the other technology can respond almost immediately, I think maybe one of the technologies will die out.


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post #10085 of 10293 Old 12-31-2014, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
DJ, that is pretty expensive, it's about 1/2 that cost in the US. I'm interested in the laser tech as well, but read closely what the various criticisms are. Some of the concerns aren't just the additional cost. For a projector like the Sony 4K models, you would want at least parity for it's current light output capabilities.

As far as longevity, this needs to be further defined, especially for those who use high lamp for large, low gain screens. What are the real hours of usage that will get you to 80/60/40 % of the original light output? 13000 hours sounds high on the Epson, but what if it drops to 80% after 3000-4000 hours. Then 60% @ 6000-8000, etc. These are questions I would want definitive answers on before spending the extra $$.

warranty - 3 years isn't that long. I have a 7 year old Planar that looks brand new after inserting a $100 OEM lamp. How will the companies handle in-warranty issues and more importantly, out of warranty? How will a non-user replaceable laser module affect resale value? I imagine a potential new owner would want some verification that the lumen output is still reasonable based on the hour count, etc.

I think these are all good questions worth asking, especially if we see this tech used in the upcoming fall 2015 models.



I agree, all good questions , and time will sure tell, but that dosnt mean that we should not bee optimistic or impressed about a projector, there at 6-8.K can compete with the "best" projectors now in the 6-28 K Price level ( X700, X900,VW300,VW500/600 or even the 1000/1100 ) and beat them at stabilty, lamp hours, color Space , ligh output, etc.
But of couse we have to see the animal first live


A happy new years to you ,J and all others in here


dj
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post #10086 of 10293 Old 12-31-2014, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
In all fairness you own a $28000 projector. You knew the cost of bulbs for that unit were going to be expensive when you bought it. In the US replacements are $799. This is a lot more expensive than what your typical UHP lamp costs, like the one that goes into the JVC. You keep bringing up the price differences where you live compared to the US. It's no where near the same here. This is where my relatively clear criticism and pessimism comes into play. The LS10000 is literally double the price here over an X500 and that's why I have my criticisms. Why pay twice the amount if you don't get anything extra in picture quality for your money? Is the laser light source, that dims at a fairly fast rate, worth $4000? Can the laser be replaced? It seems so, but with some simple math that I did earlier in this thread you're looking at around $1000 minimum to replace the laser (shipping to and from Epson $200, Laser/phosphor wheel $400, labor $300, tax ~$50 = $950) as long as labor and the actual laser module doesn't cost more than my guess. How much are new JVC bulbs and how many could I buy with $950 or $4000? If I need to use high laser mode to get max brightness which starts at 1100 calibrated lumens a life span of 10000-15000 hours may turn out to be an expensive endeavor.

True, the Price here versus Theres a difference to Count in - its more like statements like this : " the laser light source, that dims at a fairly fast rate," .....fairly fast do you mean that after "only" 12000- 25000 hours it is dim like my lamp is after 1200 - 2500 hours ( so about 10 times longer ) is that fairly fast ??!!! + we know that bulbs lose most the first 200-500 hours, so he difference is probely bigger in real life - is that not a good reason too pay extra for ?


And your X500 cant put near 1000 lumen out, when its calibreted and optimized for CR etc. acording to Cine4..its more like 400- 600 lumen if yu want ad least 30K on/off


Lampenmodus
Zoom
Iris
Lumen
Kontrast
High / D65
Max
Auf
1070
25000:1
High / D65
Min
Auf
910
29000:1
Low / D65
Max
Auf
730
26000:1
Low / D65
Min
Auf
630
30000:1
High / D65
Max
Mittel
800
34000:1
High / D65
Min
Mittel
640
37000:1
Low / D65
Max
Mittel
590
35000:1
Low / D65
Min
Mittel
470
37000:1
High / D65
Max
Zu
480
44000:1
High / D65
Min
Zu
380
50000:1
Low / D65
Max
Zu
310
44000: 1
Low / D65
Min
Zu
270
49000:1





High / native
Max
Auf
1310
31000:1
High / native
Min
Zu
510
56000

So if we then compare, the LS10000 will be brighter in middle mode ( 800 -900 lumens ) and have about 18000- 25000 hours to run - thats more then 10 times ( bulbs ) , and probely longer then you ever keep the projector ( + all the other good Things like less heat, noise, stability, color Space etc. ).


Actully eco mode would be he mode to compare with and then it looks even better for the LS10000.


Short said: I dont thing your equation is fair and correct ! but only time will tell us .


Happy new year Segs108


dj
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post #10087 of 10293 Old 12-31-2014, 09:25 AM
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I have a question about contrast ratio for the various projectors including the sony 4ks, jvc eshifts, and both single chip and 3 chip DLPs.

Take 3 scene scenarios. All 3 have a small section of full white, and full black. The scenes differ in the apl of the rest of the picture, with one at low apl, one at medium, and one at high.

In a perfect black bat cave room, for each projector, what ratio of the white to black could you expect for these 3 scenes?
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post #10088 of 10293 Old 12-31-2014, 09:47 AM
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The 5 disc and 30th anniversary 3 disc sets are both still available. You can also get the final cut alone for about $10. Is that the best transfer when it comes right down to it?

I believe it is. I like the Final Cut. In fact, I think I'll do a Blade Runner / Dark City double feature this weekend !

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post #10089 of 10293 Old 12-31-2014, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Pecker View Post
I wonder if we're getting to a state where there's a race to the finish line.


DLP needs to sort out RBE, black levels, etc.


LCD-based needs to sort out motion handling.


If Sony can release a model with DLP-esque motion handling, or...well vice versa, you get the idea, I think all the cards will start to fall one way and, unless the other technology can respond almost immediately, I think maybe one of the technologies will die out.


Steve W

There's room for all these technologies, not to mention that most of them are sold as business projectors. Home theater is just a side line for these companies.

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post #10090 of 10293 Old 12-31-2014, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Pecker View Post
I wouldn't pay almost £5K for a projector like the X500 - the motion handling simply isn't good enough (for me).


I do understand though that, like RBE, it affects different people in different ways.


Steve W
The X500 is considerably more expensive where you are, I got mine for 4 a year ago with extra bulbs and a pair of 3D glasses along with emitter. Also the motion is great, I watch hockey with no motion issues. In fact with the interpolation on it is smoother then my Benq W7000 is for sports.

James Reid:D

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post #10091 of 10293 Old 12-31-2014, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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wow £5K converts to about $7800 US. i wouldn't pay that much for an X500 either. $4K US, definitely!

The HW40 he bought sells for about £1.8K, that would be around $2800 here. Closer to what we'd pay for an HW55 though. I saw HW40's here for under 2K US. I can see why folks outside the US have to be pickier with their purchases given the cost. Flipping is probably not easy when the forum classifieds are sometimes filled with good bargains from US sellers, Ebay, etc.
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post #10092 of 10293 Old 12-31-2014, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
wow £5K converts to about $7800 US. i wouldn't pay that much for an X500 either. $4K US, definitely!

The HW40 he bought sells for about £1.8K, that would be around $2800 here. Closer to what we'd pay for an HW55 though. I saw HW40's here for under 2K US. I can see why folks outside the US have to be pickier with their purchases given the cost. Flipping is probably not easy when the forum classifieds are sometimes filled with good bargains from US sellers, Ebay, etc.
As of 12/8/14 a gallon of gas in the UK is $7.12 US per gallon.. Taxes are a bit higher over the other side of the pond..
http://www.eia.gov/countries/prices/gasolinewithtax.cfm
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post #10093 of 10293 Old 12-31-2014, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by d.j. View Post
True, the Price here versus Theres a difference to Count in - its more like statements like this : " the laser light source, that dims at a fairly fast rate," .....fairly fast do you mean that after "only" 12000- 25000 hours it is dim like my lamp is after 1200 - 2500 hours ( so about 10 times longer ) is that fairly fast ??!!! + we know that bulbs lose most the first 200-500 hours, so he difference is probely bigger in real life - is that not a good reason too pay extra for ?


And your X500 cant put near 1000 lumen out, when its calibreted and optimized for CR etc. acording to Cine4..its more like 400- 600 lumen if yu want ad least 30K on/off


So if we then compare, the LS10000 will be brighter in middle mode ( 800 -900 lumens ) and have about 18000- 25000 hours to run - thats more then 10 times ( bulbs ) , and probely longer then you ever keep the projector ( + all the other good Things like less heat, noise, stability, color Space etc. ).


Actully eco mode would be he mode to compare with and then it looks even better for the LS10000.


Short said: I dont thing your equation is fair and correct ! but only time will tell us .


Happy new year Segs108


dj
In the context of next generation light sources, yes it does dim fairly fast. This laser implementation dims four times faster than LEDs do when used at full brightness. Once my bulb based projector reaches 15000 hours, guess what? I can put another bulb in it and, poof, FULL BRIGHTNESS.

With the dynamic iris engaged I can get 950 lumens and 350000:1 dynamic contrast on the X500. The X700 can do 980 lumens at 31000:1 so if so for some reason I needed 30000:1 native and 1000 lumens, I'd just pick up an X700. I'm not sure why you even brought that point up anyways? Seems strange. If you look closer I could use the X500 at a farther throw and get 880 lumens and 30000:1 on the X500 according to cine4home, not 630 lumens like you were quoting.

Cine4home reports this:

Quote:
Color Corrects the LS10000 loses about a third of its luminosity, reaching around 1100 lumens maximum at a native contrast ratio of 17000: 1 and 27: 000: 1 . This too is still outstanding values ​​which are at a similar level reference such as a JVC X500.
Graphic Showing Cine4Home Edition Measurements:



Native contrast of the LS10000 is right in line with the X500, with the X700 being even better, and the LS10000 is about 150 lumens brighter in this mode. By 3500 hours (87.5 % of the claimed half life by Epson) you're down to where a JVC would be at with a new bulb and there's no going back to regain that extra brightness without replacing the laser module, then by 7000 hours or so, you'l be at 75% brightness (~825 lumens) and so on with no hope to get back that original brightness you once had unless you pay price to get a new laser module, which Epson still hasn't said is something that's available to do. I think for power users this is a little excessive. There a many people who use their projector like a TV so I think LED based projectors are better suited for them considering they dim much slower (4x slower at full brightness). I like the concept of lasers but the implementation that Epson has dims too fast for me in consideration that they want me to pay $4000 for it, and more money in other economies around the world.

Last edited by Seegs108; 12-31-2014 at 04:34 PM.
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post #10094 of 10293 Old 12-31-2014, 06:32 PM
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Happy New Year everyone, enjoy your selfs and get a cab or walk.

Time for my traditional New Years viewing of Lawrence of Arabia and Bridge over the River Kwai. Both of witch look stunning on my X500.lol

James Reid:D
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post #10095 of 10293 Old 12-31-2014, 09:30 PM
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I've seen what you're talking about but it seems like an odd phenomenon when you think about how the LED projectors work. Seeing how the light is created and combined before the integrator rod I don't see why this could happen. I think there's more to this issue than meets the eye so calling it "misconvergence" is probably incorrect.
I understand, but I think that also leads to the rather illogical case that if all 3 colors line up perfectly with a 3 chip projector then there is a good chance it actually has misconvergence (by that definition), since some misconvergence was required to offset another factor that made the 3 primaries colors not line up perfectly on-screen. In this case, 2 wrongs needed to make a right.

Could be a case where using the proper technical terminology actually leads to giving people the wrong answer for the question they asked. For example if somebody asks whether there is a convergence issue when they are really asking whether the colors line up properly coming off the screen and somebody tells them there is no misconvergence even though the colors don't line up properly off the screen.
Quote:
I've owned 5 different LED projectors and the one model I've seen it on, the issue couldn't be seen from a normal seating distance.
On those 4 good sets if you put up single white pixels (like on one of the AVS test discs) would all 3 colors line up perfectly on screen when checking from up close? I don't recall seeing that happen with any of the single chip DLPs I've looked at up close going back to many single chip models. Even if it was small it seemed like there was some offset or aberration either vertically or horizontally between at least 2 primary colors and my memory is this is even for the center of the screen.

One LED DLP was off by more than a full pixel IIRC. It was one of the first things we asked about since it was really bad, but never got an answer.

A SIM2 single chip LED DLP at a local store also had the colors not all lining up on the screen, but I don't recall how much. I seem to recall that it was more than I would have thought was okay with a 3 chip projector like a JVC. Maybe they've gotten better since then as these were early ones though.

I recall that when I was going to look at one single chip lamp based DLP model a rep for a competitor told me to look for the offset of one color vertically. I did and saw it, but on the single chip lamp based DLP from the company that rep worked for they also had some vertical offset, just with a different color. This may have depended on lens position, but it was there when I checked.

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

Last edited by darinp2; 12-31-2014 at 09:39 PM.
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post #10096 of 10293 Old 01-01-2015, 02:59 AM
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I understand, but I think that also leads to the rather illogical case that if all 3 colors line up perfectly with a 3 chip projector then there is a good chance it actually has misconvergence (by that definition), since some misconvergence was required to offset another factor that made the 3 primaries colors not line up perfectly on-screen. In this case, 2 wrongs needed to make a right.

Could be a case where using the proper technical terminology actually leads to giving people the wrong answer for the question they asked. For example if somebody asks whether there is a convergence issue when they are really asking whether the colors line up properly coming off the screen and somebody tells them there is no misconvergence even though the colors don't line up properly off the screen.
On those 4 good sets if you put up single white pixels (like on one of the AVS test discs) would all 3 colors line up perfectly on screen when checking from up close? I don't recall seeing that happen with any of the single chip DLPs I've looked at up close going back to many single chip models. Even if it was small it seemed like there was some offset or aberration either vertically or horizontally between at least 2 primary colors and my memory is this is even for the center of the screen.

One LED DLP was off by more than a full pixel IIRC. It was one of the first things we asked about since it was really bad, but never got an answer.

A SIM2 single chip LED DLP at a local store also had the colors not all lining up on the screen, but I don't recall how much. I seem to recall that it was more than I would have thought was okay with a 3 chip projector like a JVC. Maybe they've gotten better since then as these were early ones though.

I recall that when I was going to look at one single chip lamp based DLP model a rep for a competitor told me to look for the offset of one color vertically. I did and saw it, but on the single chip lamp based DLP from the company that rep worked for they also had some vertical offset, just with a different color. This may have depended on lens position, but it was there when I checked.

--Darin
I don't know what exactly causes the issue, but all I know is that defining it as a "convergence" issue seems incorrect to me because the word convergence has a connotation for something else. While it may be technically correct I think using it will confuse people. If the rod integrator shapes and directionalizes the light from all three LEDs how could we have this issue? Obviously it's there, as I've seen. I just don't understand how it's created. Do you have any insight?

To your second point, yes, I looked at test patterns and didn't notice any issues, but then again what you were seeing could have been chromatic aberrations and not an issue with individual colors lining up. Do you remember which models you were looking at? These LED projectors (the Delta and Chi-Lin OEM'ed ones) have very nice Japanese all glass lenses with ED glass elements and decent lens coatings. CA for the most part (other than perhaps the extreme edges) was non-existent.

Is it possible that the timing of the sequential color and the angle at which the mirrors reflect each color onto the screen is slightly off causing a problem with how each color layers itself onto a screen? I could see this creating a "convergence" issue. The LEDs do create sequential color much faster. Maybe the DMDs have a hard time keeping up or staying in sync? It's possible a slight error in timing could cause this issue. I don't know. Maybe someone can enlighten us?
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post #10097 of 10293 Old 01-01-2015, 09:45 AM
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Let me see if I understand the really great insights here on the usage of the word convergence started I think out of sheer boredom by Darin.


The colors displayed do not line up, they do not converge, therefore they are misconverged but this misconvergence is not caused by chip alignment if there is only one chip since one can not align oneself without having at least one other to align to. Now what can cause the colors displayed to not be aligned to one and other besides chip alignment? And assuming there are multiple causes, is it possible that the errors caused by each cause could negate themselves in some instances?


In the days of three tube CRT FPs, we use to stop movies in the middle in order to reconverge the projector. This was an art but drove the audience crazy. Honey don't. Honey. It will only take a minute. Yea right.


I once needed to discuss this urge of mine to spend two hours a night reconverging for every one hour of watching with AV shrink, Joe Kane. His advice? Watch in black and white but recalibrate to 5800K. Of course, he was kidding to just test me re the need to recalibrate.
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post #10098 of 10293 Old 01-01-2015, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
I have a question about contrast ratio for the various projectors including the sony 4ks, jvc eshifts, and both single chip and 3 chip DLPs.

Take 3 scene scenarios. All 3 have a small section of full white, and full black. The scenes differ in the apl of the rest of the picture, with one at low apl, one at medium, and one at high.

In a perfect black bat cave room, for each projector, what ratio of the white to black could you expect for these 3 scenes?
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post #10099 of 10293 Old 01-01-2015, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
The colors displayed do not line up, they do not converge, therefore they are misconverged but this misconvergence is not caused by chip alignment if there is only one chip since one can not align oneself without having at least one other to align to. Now what can cause the colors displayed to not be aligned to one and other besides chip alignment? And assuming there are multiple causes, is it possible that the errors caused by each cause could negate themselves in some instances?
Just to bring some more confusion to the topic, here are photos of the same projector (Planar PD8150 - single-chip DLP), same lens, but different lens orientation (PS. You may right-click->View Image to get 100% images):



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post #10100 of 10293 Old 01-01-2015, 06:25 PM
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This is chromatic aberration, different frequencies of light bend a different amount as they go through a lens. Different lens techniques minimize this but it is likely to be exaggerated if zooming to the limit of the lens (projector closer to the screen) and using lens shift to near its limits. So you can get this phenomenon even with single chip designs, actually 3 chips sometimes have an advantage if they have convergence controls to help correct for this. I think this I also the reason many single chip DLPs had relatively small zoom ranges and limited lens shift capabilities.


http://www.tutorial9.net/tutorials/p...ic-aberration/


https://photographylife.com/what-is-...tic-aberration
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post #10101 of 10293 Old 01-02-2015, 12:27 PM
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The easiest way to determine if the errors you are caused by chip alignment or chromatic aberrations caused by the lens itself which varies depending on image positioning in the lens are whether image errors vary across the screen. If the errors when the image is centered in the lens are uniform, you have panel or chip misconvergence. If the degree or error increases then you are seeing the effects of chromatic aberration which of course could be in addition to any panel or chip misconvergence errors.

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post #10102 of 10293 Old 01-03-2015, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
In the days of three tube CRT FPs, we use to stop movies in the middle in order to reconverge the projector. This was an art but drove the audience crazy. Honey don't. Honey. It will only take a minute. Yea right.

I once needed to discuss this urge of mine to spend two hours a night reconverging for every one hour of watching with AV shrink, Joe Kane. His advice? Watch in black and white but recalibrate to 5800K. Of course, he was kidding to just test me re the need to recalibrate.
I had an automated mandatory 1 hour warm up on my stack. "Dad when can we watch a movie?" " How about now?" "Now?" "Now!?"
But I'm over that now-well not really but I'm working on it
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post #10103 of 10293 Old 01-04-2015, 11:45 AM
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Picture of the problem.
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post #10104 of 10293 Old 01-04-2015, 11:53 AM
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I have a question but I hope somebody couldn't give me an answer to.
When I use the CMD on my X500 I get some rare vertical lines but looks like some sort of banding or motion artifact,with the same distance apart in all of the picture. I also see this in different movies but not all the time it appears and disappears. Very visible is in zero dark 30. In the chapter canaries when the choppers have just reached The sky and the girl agents Watch the choppers fly away.
This is just one scene that I see this very clearly and not possible to adjust away.
If you turn the CMD off the problem is totally gone.
I have also watched different X 500 and they have it to, but much less visible than what I have.
Does anybody know what this is and how to remove it or fix it.
I have now tried everything,every possible adjustments,different color spaces different MPC levels and everything possible on the JVC to reduce this as much as possible but with no luck.
Any hints?
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post #10105 of 10293 Old 01-04-2015, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post
I have a question but I hope somebody couldn't give me an answer to.
When I use the CMD on my X500 I get some rare vertical lines but looks like some sort of banding or motion artifact,with the same distance apart in all of the picture. I also see this in different movies but not all the time it appears and disappears. Very visible is in zero dark 30. In the chapter canaries when the choppers have just reached The sky and the girl agents Watch the choppers fly away.
This is just one scene that I see this very clearly and not possible to adjust away.
If you turn the CMD off the problem is totally gone.
I have also watched different X 500 and they have it to, but much less visible than what I have.
Does anybody know what this is and how to remove it or fix it.
I have now tried everything,every possible adjustments,different color spaces different MPC levels and everything possible on the JVC to reduce this as much as possible but with no luck.
Any hints?
Impossible to completely avoid I'm afraid short of disabling CMD. Here is what I've done to mitigate it, in part as discovered by others:

Turn off Clear Black. Input a 10- or 12-bit deep color HDMI signal. Lastly, use the JVC autocal to calibrate the gamma.

These three things in order from least to most effective have greatly mitigated the CMD banding. Also simply calibrating the brightness & contrast settings may help this but I haven't A-B tested that.

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post #10106 of 10293 Old 01-04-2015, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by jjcook View Post
Impossible to completely avoid I'm afraid short of disabling CMD. Here is what I've done to mitigate it, in part as discovered by others:

Turn off Clear Black. Input a 10- or 12-bit deep color HDMI signal. Lastly, use the JVC autocal to calibrate the gamma.

These three things in order from least to most effective have greatly mitigated the CMD banding. Also simply calibrating the brightness & contrast settings may help this but I haven't A-B tested that.
This projector is calibrated full cmd and to a power gamma 2.35 and brightness and contrast adjusted 100% correctly. Clear black does not help if he turned off. I have tried 10 and 12 it's deep color on the oppo but does not help one bit.
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post #10107 of 10293 Old 01-04-2015, 01:21 PM
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This projector is calibrated full cmd and to a power gamma 2.35 and brightness and contrast adjusted 100% correctly. Clear black does not help if he turned off. I have tried 10 and 12 it's deep color on the oppo but does not help one bit.
My experience is the opposite with the Oppo 10- 12-bit color helping to smooth out the transition (but not eliminate it). What seriously helped was whatever internal tables were adjusted using the JVC autocal software. Simply calibrating with the onboard CMS was not what I was referring to. I don't know if an outboard CMS ala Lumagen would help with this, I truly think the gamma/other internal tables need to be updated as their values seem to affect the CMD processing.

Regardless the banding is still there, but some test inputs like a particular Hobbit scene with the Eagles the banding has disappeared, whereas for say Oblivion the banding is simply less noticeable.

Do keep us updated if you find any other ways to mitigate, short of buying a Sony

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post #10108 of 10293 Old 01-04-2015, 02:03 PM
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Banding with CMD on is a known problem. It must be an issue internally when creating the new frames. I suspect poor dithering which is why we're seeing banding. I hope they address this next year.
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post #10109 of 10293 Old 01-04-2015, 02:41 PM
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I have not turned CMD off of high since I got my X500 and never see banding, guess I won the lottery, or my eyes are no good.lol

James Reid:D
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post #10110 of 10293 Old 01-04-2015, 02:44 PM
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I have not turned CMD off of high since I got my X500 and never see banding, guess I won the lottery, or my eyes are no good.lol
The banding is only on the newly introduced "low" mode that came out with these newest generation models. So using CMD on high shouldn't result in any banding issues.
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