Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 340 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #10171 of 11215 Old 01-07-2015, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
seegs how many neurons can that monster rig handle? Were you able to see any difference with the higher neuron settings?
I'll test it out now. I'm not sure if MadVR takes advantage of SLI. I added MadVR under the 3D custom settings. I guess an easy way to tell would be to compare the render time of the scaling with and without SLI enabled.





I'll play around with the X500 but I think it would be better to use a native 4K projector, like the 1100ES, to try and see differences between 16 and 32 neurons.

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post #10172 of 11215 Old 01-07-2015, 11:15 PM
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seegs how many neurons can that monster rig handle? Were you able to see any difference with the higher neuron settings?
Okay so the key is keeping the rendering time below the frame interval. For 24/1001 content, like on blu-ray, this interval between frames is 41.71 ms. So to get no frame drops or repeated frames the render time has to be below 41.71 ms.

With the JINC scaler (and JINC chroma upscaling) with 3 taps enabled, for scaling 1080p blu-ray to UHD resolution we're at 16.7ms. This is obviously under 41.71 ms. If we enable NNEDI3 chroma upscaling at 16 neurons we're now at 24.05 ms. Still well under our target. 32 neurons enabled ups it to 26.3 ms. 64 neurons is 31.10 ms. 128 neurons is 40.45 which is close but still under our target. So this is the max my PC will do for chroma upscaling from 1080p to UHD. If we have NNEDI3 chroma upscaling at 32 neurons and then add in NNEDI3 luma image doubling at 16 neurons we reach 40.00 ms. This is close to the target but still under. So for this set up these are the max I'm going to be able to set things to achieve a stable image without any frame drops or repeated frames.

Now, I also have an ISCO IIIL so I'd like to be able to do 1080p --> UHD scaling and then enable vertical stretch/scaling to get rid of black bars on scope material. The max settings for this combination of scaling is chroma upscaling set to 64 neurons and disabling luma image doubling. Enabling luma image doubling set to 16 (lowest setting) is too much for this combination of scaling. We go over our target. Just the chroma scaling at 64 gives me 34.04 ms render time and is well under our target time. 128 goes over our target by about 2.5 ms so we'll get dropped and repeated frames. Not good. I suppose if I wanted to overclock my GPU I could get the render time fast enough, but I suspect this higher setting will be nearly impossible to see improvements in PQ over 64.

Oh and it looks like MadVR doesn't take advantage of SLI. Render times with and without SLI enabled were very close. Disabling SLI gave me render times slightly faster by about 1 to 2 ms. Not much, but good to know.

Now it's time to see if I can see visible differences between these modes. I'm sure at some point the benefits will be superfluous. I would imagine, at a normal seating distance in relation to screen size, 64 is probably the cut off for visible improvement in PQ.
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post #10173 of 11215 Old 01-08-2015, 01:36 AM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
Per my JVC contact, there is no change to MPC or CMD by firmware update or by sending it in to Mendtronix.
According to Steven Carter (former Product Specialist Manager in JVC) there is a difference and with side by side testing there is a major difference (the biggest difference is Enhancer) on the European model X500. We will call again to know if it is hardware or software based. The difference in the banding stripes is very small, mine is a little better than Dj Dee´s older model. But the difference in Enhancer is big, not that it is positive as you can only set the Enhancer much more agressive resulting in a overcooked image.

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post #10174 of 11215 Old 01-08-2015, 09:58 AM
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According to Steven Carter (former Product Specialist Manager in JVC) there is a difference and with side by side testing there is a major difference (the biggest difference is Enhancer) on the European model X500. We will call again to know if it is hardware or software based. The difference in the banding stripes is very small, mine is a little better than Dj Dee´s older model. But the difference in Enhancer is big, not that it is positive as you can only set the Enhancer much more agressive resulting in a overcooked image.
In an earlier update there was a change made to the range of MPC. That has been talked about in a few threads. Earlier MPC had too large a range, so it was reduced and this gives finer control. So if you were comparing the same setting on two different projectors, one with old firmware and another with newer firmware, then the MPC setting were not the same.

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post #10175 of 11215 Old 01-08-2015, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
In an earlier update there was a change made to the range of MPC. That has been talked about in a few threads. Earlier MPC had too large a range, so it was reduced and this gives finer control. So if you were comparing the same setting on two different projectors, one with old firmware and another with newer firmware, then the MPC setting were not the same.

I still say those dam sliders do nothing.lol

James Reid:D
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post #10176 of 11215 Old 01-08-2015, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
In an earlier update there was a change made to the range of MPC. That has been talked about in a few threads. Earlier MPC had too large a range, so it was reduced and this gives finer control. So if you were comparing the same setting on two different projectors, one with old firmware and another with newer firmware, then the MPC setting were not the same.
Both had the latest firmware, and the difference is oposite than what you say. The older has so fine control that is is almost not noiceable and the latest (even with the same firmware) has more agressive sliders (espessially Enhancer) This is now tested with 3 of the latest batch from EU against one from the first bach from EU. all with the same and latest firmware. This is on the EU models, maby it is different on the US models??

I remember in the beginning of the Xx00 treads the owners said that the MPC sliders did nothing so I find what you say to be strange.

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post #10177 of 11215 Old 01-08-2015, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
Both had the latest firmware, and the difference is oposite than what you say. The older has so fine control that is is almost not noiceable and the latest (even with the same firmware) has more agressive sliders (espessially Enhancer) This is now tested with 3 of the latest batch from EU against one from the first bach from EU. all with the same and latest firmware. This is on the EU models, maby it is different on the US models??

I remember in the beginning of the Xx00 treads the owners said that the MPC sliders did nothing so I find what you say to be strange.

That was me that said they do nothing. I have had mine since they came out, I pre ordered it. I have one update on it, the very first one. And I can not notice any difference playing with the MPC sliders.

James Reid:D
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post #10178 of 11215 Old 01-08-2015, 11:00 AM
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On my pre-order RS4910 with the latest firmware, the MPC controls do affect the image but it is still fairly subtle until I reach 75/100; the original firmware was even more subtle to my recollection.

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post #10179 of 11215 Old 01-09-2015, 06:09 PM
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I still say those dam sliders do nothing.lol
Hahaha, I agree! Our eyes must be terrible! The image still looks great to me and I always have more kills than deaths in COD, but I can't for the life of me seem to see a bit of difference while messing with those stupid sliders, LOL! And I have the latest and greatest firmware. Oh well, I'm still happy.
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post #10180 of 11215 Old 01-09-2015, 08:07 PM
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For those who haven't seen this review:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/sony...-review.htm?em
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post #10181 of 11215 Old 01-09-2015, 09:35 PM - Thread Starter
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~1400 lumens @ D65 is pretty good for a lower wattage lamp. The 600's i've had here were around 1600+ at mid throw and I've seen as high as 1800 from the 1100.

for reference on the lag time, the 600 now has a firmware update that will match the ~30 ms of the 350.
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post #10182 of 11215 Old 01-10-2015, 06:27 AM
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So, Zombie does 1080p upscaled to 4K on a 4K projector (VW1100) look significantly better than the same 1080p material shown on a really good 1080p projector? Both PC and Projector Reviews claim that it does. If so then your VW1100 must be getting a real workout.
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post #10183 of 11215 Old 01-10-2015, 08:54 AM - Thread Starter
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I have 4 projectors and HT is just 1 of my several time consuming hobbies, none of the projectors are getting a real workout.

I was a little taken back by Art's review of the VW1100. it is a great projector in many ways but it doesn't magically transform 1080P content into 4K. I do think the scaling is better than e-shift and would be surprised if the LS10000 was really any better in this regard vs. the JVC. I expect if I see it in person, i'll be looking at the results of the image processing and will likely turn it down where others will state 'sharpest picture ever' without looking closely at what artifacts are being left behind from aggressive processing. Epson's 'super resolution' processing on the 1080P models can overcook the image just as quickly as reality creation on the Sony 1080P models. hopefully it's toned down on a bit on the new models.

The major standouts for the VW1100 is excellent out of the box color, gamma, etc. Brightness is impressive and it can torch the big HP with ~1800 lumens so it looks great with ambient light viewing when we have guests over. The final is true UHD / 4K. I get that people claim resolution by itself doesn't matter. I don't entirely agree. Check out some footage from the Sony 4K cameras or even a Gopro 4, the details are remarkable and there is a clear difference when looking at 1080P content from the same cameras on the 1080P projectors. I sit 1.25 sw from the 142" 16:9.

it sounds like PR is going to have a big 'reveal' where the LS10000 looks 'just as good' as the VW1100 for 1/3 the price using Sony's 4K media device as a source. imo, this isn't really the best method to use, there isn't a lot of top shelf content on the media player. None it compares to the raw 4K footage I've seen from the Sony 4K cameras. This should have been the source used if we really want to compare. I've tried this with the JVC's vs. VW1100 and e-shift will not convince me that it's true 4K vs how remarkable the Sony can look with a killer 4K source.

obviously most will not be watch footage from Sony 4K cameras or 4K Gopros, but it's still nice to see the real capabilities of the 4K panels vs. the image shift technology.
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post #10184 of 11215 Old 01-10-2015, 09:24 AM
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Zombie, thanks for your input; however, the real question for me (sorry I wasn't all that clear) is whether or not 1080p is obviously better on a 4K projector than a 1080p projector -- leaving aside brightness and concentrating on upscaled resolution only? In other words does upscaling 1080p to 4K make a substantial difference in image quality as claimed by the reviewers?

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post #10185 of 11215 Old 01-10-2015, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
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No, I wouldn't use the word substantial. Oblivion and Skyfall are 2 of the nicest 1080P BD sources I've seen in a while, there is not some day / night difference when compared with my JVC's or the .95 Planar.

I'd like to know more about the context though, how exactly was it stated.
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post #10186 of 11215 Old 01-10-2015, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
So, Zombie does 1080p upscaled to 4K on a 4K projector (VW1100) look significantly better than the same 1080p material shown on a really good 1080p projector? Both PC and Projector Reviews claim that it does. If so then your VW1100 must be getting a real workout.

Again - yes, it looks better, but not significantly better IMO ( depending on how you will describe "significantly" ) - you can see, its better, but not earth shattering better


Sorry I cant describe it better


dj
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post #10187 of 11215 Old 01-10-2015, 03:29 PM
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Here's what PC said about the VW350 (and 4K projectors in general):

The VW350ES's primary benefit, in our estimation, is that it makes existing DVD and Blu-ray movies look better than they ever have before. That is true regardless of the availability (or lack thereof) of 4K content.

Is this due to 4K by itself, the projector's processing or a combination of the two? After reading the 4K projector reviews I was left with the impression that these projectors take 1080p material to another level. However, I'm not sure that the owners are saying that (at least with respect to resolution).
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post #10188 of 11215 Old 01-10-2015, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
Here's what PC said about the VW350 (and 4K projectors in general:

The VW350ES's primary benefit, in our estimation, is that it makes existing DVD and Blu-ray movies look better than they ever have before. That is true regardless of the availability (or lack thereof) of 4K content.

Is this due to 4K by itself, the projector's processing or a combination of the two? After reading the 4K projector reviews I was left with the impression that these projectors take 1080p material to another level. However, I'm not sure that the owners are saying that (at least with respect to resolution).
A lot of it has to do with scaling. There are some nice benefits to scaling which include reduction of aliasing artifacts and a general "smoothing" effect that can make the source content appear more analog and "solid" in nature. The key to getting it to look like this is quality scaling. While the Sony doesn't offer the best scaling solution out there it's definitely high quality. I suspect PC is making these claims while also having RC enabled and set at a higher value than "0". For me, when looking at the VW1100ES at Mark's house, I wasn't a fan of RC turned up past the lowest setting of 0. This artificial sharpness can appear at first glance to improve the picture, but to the trained eye it actually ruins the integrity of the image by giving it an overly "digital" appearance which is the opposite of what we're usually looking for. This is why so many people, including PC, who reviewed the LS10000 gave it so much praise in terms of "sharpness". Their Super Resolution smart sharpening filter gives the appearance of highly increased sharpness, but again, it comes at a great cost. The image takes on an incredibly "cooked" appearance. You heard many people who saw it at CEDIA go "WTF?" after the demo because the presenters had it turned up so high and acting like "this is how you should be using it". Nothing looks natural anymore. This is one area where I'd like to praise JVC. They've realized that when giving a feature like this to consumers it needs to have fine controls. Used in moderation, it can give us just the right amount of sharpness and introduce minimal detrimental artifacts to the original source material. It seems RC and Super Resolution don't give us the fine control over the sharpening effect like other companies do. I use MPC on my X500 with only enhance enabled at set between 10 and 15. Past that, I'm not a huge fan of what it does to the image. I don't normally have Clear Black enabled.

Another aspect of scaling is something called "ringing" and is sometimes introduced on purpose as the image goes through it's scaling implementation. Ringing can give the appearance of a sharper looking image. It targets contrast gradients around hard lines and emphasizes them. To our eyes this can appear "sharper" though it can have the same detrimental effect the smart sharpeners have when done in excess. This is because both of these do similar things to the image to achieve a similar effect. Scalers like those found in the Lumagen and MadVR, and even Sony's scaler offer little to no ringing introduced which should keep the image looking as "analog" and natural in appearance as possible as it's scaled.

If you want better scaling you can always look into a Lumagen or an HTPC. These PQ enhancements from scaling scale with the quality in which the image is processed. So you can expect the image from these 4K projectors to look even better than PC is claiming with one of these other devices. Though, like I said, Sony's internal scaler is no slouch. Some people like what these smart sharpeners and purposefully introduced ringing do to the image and that's fine but I like that there are at least some alternatives for those of us who don't like to see this forced upon us or those who just want to add in a small amount.

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post #10189 of 11215 Old 01-10-2015, 03:50 PM
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Hi,Andreas21


You are right about the enhancer from JVC X500,it is a big difference from 50 to 0 or 50 to 100.When i play with the slider i can see a difference even from 25 to 10.All sliders from MPC has an effect in overall sharpness of the picture.

I bought my X500 on 22 Dec and is the EU model.
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post #10190 of 11215 Old 01-10-2015, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
Is this due to 4K by itself, the projector's processing or a combination of the two? After reading the 4K projector reviews I was left with the impression that these projectors take 1080p material to another level. However, I'm not sure that the owners are saying that (at least with respect to resolution).
I would say it's impossible to say, there are just too many variables. The VW1100 has quite high native contrast, about the highest ANSI contrast outside DLP, an excellent DI algorithm, one of the best lenses available. In other words the VW1100 is just an excellent projector on the merits other than resolution, I'm sure the VW1100 would get rave reviews for quality even if it weren't 4K (though it would probably either get a lot of flak for the price or just be ignored like most Sim2s are). How much of the benefit of the VW1100 is from it having 8 million pixels vs 2 million, and how much is from the other attributes? I say there's no way to make that determination...

Except I know of one way perhaps. If you were to get two VW1100's calibrated identically, fire them at the same screen, but have one positioned so that only 1920x1080 of the pixels were used. If feed both the same signal and let one windowbox the image and let the other scale it. Assuming you brightness match them (via lamp mode and ND filters, not zooming or other settings), then you could probably make a determination about what the extra 6 million pixels (plus scaling) gets you.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #10191 of 11215 Old 01-10-2015, 07:46 PM - Thread Starter
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the close range Sony 4K projectors look bright with ambient light. The blended pair will only cost 110K.

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post #10192 of 11215 Old 01-10-2015, 08:50 PM - Thread Starter
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check out this LG led projector coming out soon. it claims 1400 lumens, 1080P. it's supposed to sell @ Best Buy for under a grand in Feb/March.

http://www.dday.it/redazione/15350/l...uner-integrato



this could be a decent projector for racking up hours watching TV. I still use my QUMI LED for this and have been looking for an inexpensive upgrade.
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post #10193 of 11215 Old 01-11-2015, 02:39 AM
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I would say it's impossible to say, there are just too many variables. The VW1100 has quite high native contrast, about the highest ANSI contrast outside DLP, an excellent DI algorithm, one of the best lenses available. In other words the VW1100 is just an excellent projector on the merits other than resolution, I'm sure the VW1100 would get rave reviews for quality even if it weren't 4K (though it would probably either get a lot of flak for the price or just be ignored like most Sim2s are). How much of the benefit of the VW1100 is from it having 8 million pixels vs 2 million, and how much is from the other attributes? I say there's no way to make that determination...

Except I know of one way perhaps. If you were to get two VW1100's calibrated identically, fire them at the same screen, but have one positioned so that only 1920x1080 of the pixels were used. If feed both the same signal and let one windowbox the image and let the other scale it. Assuming you brightness match them (via lamp mode and ND filters, not zooming or other settings), then you could probably make a determination about what the extra 6 million pixels (plus scaling) gets you.
I willl say it is easy to say why the VW1100 throws such a nice picture and look better with 1080p than the best 1080p projectors it is a combination of all, good on/off, very good ansi, excelent lens, very good DI, excelent 4K chips, high brightness and so on. And of corse not only resolution alone, if you put 4K panels in a bad looking Optoma it would still look awful.

And I also think the VW1100 wold look almost as good as it does if you put good 1080p chips in it.

Regards
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post #10194 of 11215 Old 01-11-2015, 06:52 AM
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check out this LG led projector coming out soon. it claims 1400 lumens, 1080P. it's supposed to sell @ Best Buy for under a grand in Feb/March.

http://www.dday.it/redazione/15350/l...uner-integrato



this could be a decent projector for racking up hours watching TV. I still use my QUMI LED for this and have been looking for an inexpensive upgrade.

If it's gets a good 1000 lumens, that would be great, I'll pick up one.
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post #10195 of 11215 Old 01-11-2015, 09:04 AM - Thread Starter
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If it's gets a good 1000 lumens, that would be great, I'll pick up one.
that's what i'm hoping for. I'll likely pick one up when it's released to check it out. Since it's local retail, I can always return it if it turns out to be a dud.

My QUMI is coming on 3 years old and sometimes leave it running for 8-10+ hours. I still like this little projector, I take it with me on trips and use a very small netgear Miracast box (PTV3000) to watch content from my S4 and MS Surface, both support Miracast.

I'm glad to see LG in this specific market / price point with these LED models. The current models like the PF85U are pretty small, I wonder what 1080P DLP they are using. these claim 1000 but are closer to ~600+ calibrated. Hopefully the 1400 claim means these will be 900+ @ near D65.
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post #10196 of 11215 Old 01-11-2015, 10:01 AM
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that's what i'm hoping for. I'll likely pick one up when it's released to check it out. Since it's local retail, I can always return it if it turns out to be a dud.

My QUMI is coming on 3 years old and sometimes leave it running for 8-10+ hours. I still like this little projector, I take it with me on trips and use a very small netgear Miracast box (PTV3000) to watch content from my S4 and MS Surface, both support Miracast.

I'm glad to see LG in this specific market / price point with these LED models. The current models like the PF85U are pretty small, I wonder what 1080P DLP they are using. these claim 1000 but are closer to ~600+ calibrated. Hopefully the 1400 claim means these will be 900+ @ near D65.
Since I can grab it locally, its low risk for me too.
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post #10197 of 11215 Old 01-11-2015, 12:27 PM
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Here's what PC said about the VW350 (and 4K projectors in general):

The VW350ES's primary benefit, in our estimation, is that it makes existing DVD and Blu-ray movies look better than they ever have before. That is true regardless of the availability (or lack thereof) of 4K content.

Is this due to 4K by itself, the projector's processing or a combination of the two? After reading the 4K projector reviews I was left with the impression that these projectors take 1080p material to another level. However, I'm not sure that the owners are saying that (at least with respect to resolution).
,


DV
To be clear - the 4 K resolution and the RC in combination do take the 1080P to a higher level then the pure 1080P IMO, but not a "significantly" step ( like the real 4K materiel, which is a step higher in level again, compared to the processed 1080P/ "4K" materiael, as exspected and more will call "significantly" )


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post #10198 of 11215 Old 01-11-2015, 01:23 PM
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Okay so the key is keeping the rendering time below the frame interval. For 24/1001 content, like on blu-ray, this interval between frames is 41.71 ms. So to get no frame drops or repeated frames the render time has to be below 41.71 ms.

With the JINC scaler (and JINC chroma upscaling) with 3 taps enabled, for scaling 1080p blu-ray to UHD resolution we're at 16.7ms. This is obviously under 41.71 ms. If we enable NNEDI3 chroma upscaling at 16 neurons we're now at 24.05 ms. Still well under our target. 32 neurons enabled ups it to 26.3 ms. 64 neurons is 31.10 ms. 128 neurons is 40.45 which is close but still under our target. So this is the max my PC will do for chroma upscaling from 1080p to UHD. If we have NNEDI3 chroma upscaling at 32 neurons and then add in NNEDI3 luma image doubling at 16 neurons we reach 40.00 ms. This is close to the target but still under. So for this set up these are the max I'm going to be able to set things to achieve a stable image without any frame drops or repeated frames.

Now, I also have an ISCO IIIL so I'd like to be able to do 1080p --> UHD scaling and then enable vertical stretch/scaling to get rid of black bars on scope material. The max settings for this combination of scaling is chroma upscaling set to 64 neurons and disabling luma image doubling. Enabling luma image doubling set to 16 (lowest setting) is too much for this combination of scaling. We go over our target. Just the chroma scaling at 64 gives me 34.04 ms render time and is well under our target time. 128 goes over our target by about 2.5 ms so we'll get dropped and repeated frames. Not good. I suppose if I wanted to overclock my GPU I could get the render time fast enough, but I suspect this higher setting will be nearly impossible to see improvements in PQ over 64.

Oh and it looks like MadVR doesn't take advantage of SLI. Render times with and without SLI enabled were very close. Disabling SLI gave me render times slightly faster by about 1 to 2 ms. Not much, but good to know.

Now it's time to see if I can see visible differences between these modes. I'm sure at some point the benefits will be superfluous. I would imagine, at a normal seating distance in relation to screen size, 64 is probably the cut off for visible improvement in PQ.
So after playing around last night for a couple hours with a few different settings with NNEDI3, it was hard to see a major difference between some of the processing modes. Past 32 neurons I couldn't really tell a difference. 16 --> 32 I could see visible differences in the overall quality to the image. Though, from what I've read, NNEDI3's end result is highly dependent on the type of material you're looking to scale. Anime, for instance, is really where it will shine because of the hard lines it typically has. Here's the difference NNEDI3 can make over JINC:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/65513

With more fluid and soft/grain type of material that we typically see with live action film the differences between JINC and NNEID3 are less stark but there is still a definite difference. I also threw in JVCs internal scaler into the mix and I was pleasantly surprised to see it also did an excellent job in terms of scaling.

All of this really should be done on a true 4K device because e-shift most likely takes away some of the quality of the scaling being done as it can't show the same fine detail and finesse a true 4K projector with a decent lens can.
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post #10199 of 11215 Old 01-12-2015, 01:45 PM
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A lot of it has to do with scaling. There are some nice benefits to scaling which include reduction of aliasing artifacts and a general "smoothing" effect that can make the source content appear more analog and "solid" in nature. The key to getting it to look like this is quality scaling. While the Sony doesn't offer the best scaling solution out there it's definitely high quality. I suspect PC is making these claims while also having RC enabled and set at a higher value than "0".
This is not the case.

I specifically did this test once with all edge enhancement, reality creation, super resolution, etc. turned off (or as low as it would go) on both projectors to eliminate this from consideration.

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post #10200 of 11215 Old 01-12-2015, 01:48 PM
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This is not the case.

I specifically did this test once with all edge enhancement, reality creation, super resolution, etc. turned off (or as low as it would go) on both projectors to eliminate this from consideration.
You don't want RC off you just want it set to 0. There's a difference and if you turned it off then you missed out on a much better PQ experience the Sony could have given. How did you have this set? Off or zero? Options to do both are available in the menus on the Sony.

Last edited by Seegs108; 01-12-2015 at 01:58 PM.
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