Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 344 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #10291 of 10318 Old 01-26-2015, 02:30 PM - Thread Starter
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DV - the same review with the L/R patterns also said the JVC native contrast is 14.5k:1 which isn't accurate. but because it's published, many readers will think it's gospel.

will it be any different if PR states that the LS 10K is as good or better than the VW1100? A lot of the review info in general can be subjective, especially now that we are dealing with reality creation, super resolution, e-shift, etc. all sharpening techniques which could easily be overcooked for 1 person but look 'tack sharp' to another.

JC, I assure you the current JVC's are better than the RS40/45 series. At least with framed packed BD. SBS, all bets are off. At this point and time with the current 3D projectors, we still have 2 camps. DLP and Non-DLP. DLP = flawless x-talk, no flicker, so-so contrast. The non-DLP's have varying degrees of x-talk issues with tough content, varying degrees of flicker (Epson > Sony > JVC). They do beat up on the DLP's with overall contrast and low APL performance. We really have no 1 perfect projector solution just yet in this price category. The Epson 10000 is not likely going to be that solution. I expect the same degree of x-talk as we see on the Epson LCD's. Let's see the patterns, I will provide them to PC and Ron.

The lesson here for prospective buyers is to do your homework. Find out which reviewers (and end users) care about the features you're interesting in hearing about. 3D was never a strong focus in most reviews which is one of the reasons I started these threads a few years ago.
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post #10292 of 10318 Old 01-26-2015, 06:07 PM
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Up until recently, I really had no desire/need for 3D. Thought it may very well be a passing fad. We had a Mitsubishi HC4000 in our HT, and it had no 3D capability. I bought a JVC X500R just a year ago, and although it's 3D capable I didn't even give that a thought when I researched/bought it. We didn't have a 3D capable BR player in the HT anyway. I had another 3D capable TV in the house (LG Plasma) as well as a 3D LG BR player. Bought some closeout shutter glasses and watched Cars 2 3D for the first time at home. It was fun! Not that I want to watch 3D all the time-Our 2D presentation in our dedicated HT is quite satisfactory. I bought an Oppo 103D a few months ago for the HT, and then some of the Xpand Mits glasses on closeout. The 3D on my combo is decent. My wife who doesn't like 3D even enjoyed Frozen 3D and wants to know what other 3D we have and which one we're going to watch next. Not all that bright on the JVC mind you, but for mainly animated movies it's fine for the 5-10% of the time we'll use it. My point is, I really wasn't a 3D proponent, (Not a total basher like some people here) but after experiencing it first hand I have a whole different outlook and prediction for 3D's future.
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post #10293 of 10318 Old 01-26-2015, 06:37 PM
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I agree. It's fun on occasion. This is why I deem the JVC X500 sufficient for my needs with 3D. I personally don't watch much 3D and when I do I find the JVCs presentation more than satisfactory. Obviously with others they want better performance and that's fine as long as they're willing to pay for it. A good DLP with excellent contrast and brightness is expensive. These are the units from Sim2 and Runco. While Zombie and others love the Sharp 30k I suspect they want something even brighter and that's when things start to get expensive.
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post #10294 of 10318 Old 01-26-2015, 08:29 PM
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I've found the 3D on my JVC RS57 to be good to very good, in terms of how I experience it. I see some crosstalk sometimes, but a lot of the times I'm not aware of it. I've had some truly amazing 3D viewing. Godzilla blew my mind in 3D on my big screen. The 3D effect really enhanced the sensation of looking way up at real giant monsters.
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post #10295 of 10318 Old 01-26-2015, 09:25 PM
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LG has a 77" OLED -- I'll bet the 3D on that T.V. looks amazing. My kids won't let me demo one because they're afraid I'll spend their inheritance on one.
Honestly, I'm still so enamored of OLED that I think I'd replace my 110" screen in the main home theater with that 77" OLED. I'm told that will change, but after more than two months with the OLED in my bedroom system, I'm not inclined to believe it. OLED is abso-friggin-lutely awesome! Infinite contrast does even more to enhance the 3D experience than I would have believed possible. Also, as much as I've been a proponent of "bigger is better" for 2D and 3D, 3D depth is enhanced by the smaller 55" screen. At my viewing distance in the bedroom, it seems just about perfect for getting maximum "depth effect" with most 3D films. As one moves closer, or the screen size increases, 3D depth collapses. The large size makes it more immersive, but the smaller screen (surrounded by total darkness) and contrast pull me into the 3D experience thoroughly. But it's not just 3D that benefits; 2D looks so much better, too. Infinite contrast makes everything sparkle with new life.

Jason,

I trust your judgement on how much better the newer JVCs are with 3D. When my RS40/45 did 3D well (usually during dark scenes, when JVCs always seem to excel), I maintained that it was the best 3D I'd ever seen. That was because of the great contrast, and it was a glimpse of what OLED now does even better. And OLED doesn't suffer from the horrible dark ghosting issues I experienced with my JVCs. It isn't perfect, but if the reports from CES are accurate, they've made strides this year to improve on the already very good ghosting performance.

OK, I'll stop now. But I'm still looking forward to the day when that 77" OLED (or even bigger) is at a saner price. Hopefully, that's no more than a couple of years away.

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post #10296 of 10318 Old Yesterday, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post
Honestly, I'm still so enamored of OLED that I think I'd replace my 110" screen in the main home theater with that 77" OLED. I'm told that will change, but after more than two months with the OLED in my bedroom system, I'm not inclined to believe it. OLED is abso-friggin-lutely awesome! Infinite contrast does even more to enhance the 3D experience than I would have believed possible. Also, as much as I've been a proponent of "bigger is better" for 2D and 3D, 3D depth is enhanced by the smaller 55" screen. At my viewing distance in the bedroom, it seems just about perfect for getting maximum "depth effect" with most 3D films. As one moves closer, or the screen size increases, 3D depth collapses. The large size makes it more immersive, but the smaller screen (surrounded by total darkness) and contrast pull me into the 3D experience thoroughly. But it's not just 3D that benefits; 2D looks so much better, too. Infinite contrast makes everything sparkle with new life.

Jason,

I trust your judgement on how much better the newer JVCs are with 3D. When my RS40/45 did 3D well (usually during dark scenes, when JVCs always seem to excel), I maintained that it was the best 3D I'd ever seen. That was because of the great contrast, and it was a glimpse of what OLED now does even better. And OLED doesn't suffer from the horrible dark ghosting issues I experienced with my JVCs. It isn't perfect, but if the reports from CES are accurate, they've made strides this year to improve on the already very good ghosting performance.

OK, I'll stop now. But I'm still looking forward to the day when that 77" OLED (or even bigger) is at a saner price. Hopefully, that's no more than a couple of years away.
Wow! Now that's some endorsement for OLED! I want one.

As I've said in the past -- if the JVC projectors could handle ghosting like the DLPs do I'd have one. What a bind -- I love 3D but only DLP can handle it without ghosting but DLP doesn't have great contrast. JVC and Epson (now) have the contrast but can't handle ghosting (I'm assuming the LS10000 can't handle ghosting like a DLP but I really need to see a L/R 3D test result from the LS10000 to confirm). 3D lovers seem cursed. Ignorance really is bliss -- thanks to you guys I know too much.
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post #10297 of 10318 Old Yesterday, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post
Honestly, I'm still so enamored of OLED that I think I'd replace my 110" screen in the main home theater with that 77" OLED. I'm told that will change, but after more than two months with the OLED in my bedroom system, I'm not inclined to believe it. OLED is abso-friggin-lutely awesome! Infinite contrast does even more to enhance the 3D experience than I would have believed possible. Also, as much as I've been a proponent of "bigger is better" for 2D and 3D, 3D depth is enhanced by the smaller 55" screen. At my viewing distance in the bedroom, it seems just about perfect for getting maximum "depth effect" with most 3D films. As one moves closer, or the screen size increases, 3D depth collapses. The large size makes it more immersive, but the smaller screen (surrounded by total darkness) and contrast pull me into the 3D experience thoroughly. But it's not just 3D that benefits; 2D looks so much better, too. Infinite contrast makes everything sparkle with new life.

Jason,

I trust your judgement on how much better the newer JVCs are with 3D. When my RS40/45 did 3D well (usually during dark scenes, when JVCs always seem to excel), I maintained that it was the best 3D I'd ever seen. That was because of the great contrast, and it was a glimpse of what OLED now does even better. And OLED doesn't suffer from the horrible dark ghosting issues I experienced with my JVCs. It isn't perfect, but if the reports from CES are accurate, they've made strides this year to improve on the already very good ghosting performance.

OK, I'll stop now. But I'm still looking forward to the day when that 77" OLED (or even bigger) is at a saner price. Hopefully, that's no more than a couple of years away.
Yep, as soon as 100"+ 4K or 8K OLEDs are available and reasonably affordable, my projection system will be listed in the Classifieds.

Hell, I'll buy 4 of the biggest OLEDs available in a few years and stack'em if I have to.

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post #10298 of 10318 Old Yesterday, 10:06 PM - Thread Starter
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+1, I'm a fan of all of my gear that has an OLED screen. S4 phone, Gear 2 watch and the Sony HMZ-T1 goggles. The contrast is remarkable in comparison to the LCD counterparts. black is finally... black! no tricks, it's just pitch black when the image calls for it.

Why are we not seeing OLED PC monitors? I would love to have a 24-28" OLED monitor.
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post #10299 of 10318 Old Yesterday, 10:10 PM
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+1, I'm a fan of all of my gear that has an OLED screen. S4 phone, Gear 2 watch and the Sony HMZ-T1 goggles. The contrast is remarkable in comparison to the LCD counterparts. black is finally... black! no tricks, it's just pitch black when the image calls for it.

Why are we not seeing OLED PC monitors? I would love to have a 24-28" OLED monitor.
Good to hear I'm not the only geek here with a Gear 2.
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post #10300 of 10318 Old Yesterday, 10:19 PM
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Good to hear I'm not the only geek here with a Gear 2.
Had to give up my Gear 2 neo when I switched to a non-Galaxy phone but I really miss the OLED screens on both phone and watch...

But I do still have my HMZ t3.

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post #10301 of 10318 Old Yesterday, 10:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Good to hear I'm not the only geek here with a Gear 2.
The Matrix clock face always gets people going in meetings during the day. so many of the apple fans are disappointed once they find out it's not the 'new apple watch'.

This is a great watch and the OLED screen is the star of the show!



edit: robert, did you ever use the 1st Gen Sony glasses to compare against vs 3? I skipped 2 because it seemed too similar in overall size and weight.
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post #10302 of 10318 Old Yesterday, 11:04 PM
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The Matrix clock face always gets people going in meetings during the day. so many of the apple fans are disappointed once they find out it's not the 'new apple watch'.

This is a great watch and the OLED screen is the star of the show!



edit: robert, did you ever use the 1st Gen Sony glasses to compare against vs 3? I skipped 2 because it seemed too similar in overall size and weight.
Very cool! Where do you get the Matrix app?
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post #10303 of 10318 Old Yesterday, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
The Matrix clock face always gets people going in meetings during the day. so many of the apple fans are disappointed once they find out it's not the 'new apple watch'.

This is a great watch and the OLED screen is the star of the show!



edit: robert, did you ever use the 1st Gen Sony glasses to compare against vs 3? I skipped 2 because it seemed too similar in overall size and weight.

Yes, I've owned all three. The main difference between the three is that Sony got the focus better on each model. The T3 is much easier to get in focus, now if they could only put out a 1080p model. However after using the new Oculus Rift model at CES THAT is the future of entertainment.


Also, as an aside Zombie, I'd like to say thanks for all you've contributed to this forum with this thread, cheers.

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post #10304 of 10318 Old Today, 05:40 AM
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Yep, as soon as 100"+ 4K or 8K OLEDs are available and reasonably affordable, my projection system will be listed in the Classifieds.
They'll have to be rollable, 2.35:1 and accoustically trasnparent, or they're not going in my HT. I physically couldn't get my screen in or out assembled.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #10305 of 10318 Old Today, 07:34 AM
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They'll have to be rollable, 2.35:1 and accoustically trasnparent, or they're not going in my HT. I physically couldn't get my screen in or out assembled.
It will come in kit form. They will send you the roll up panel and an awl. I am in the same boat. After going AT, I don't see myself going back to a solid screen.

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post #10306 of 10318 Old Today, 07:47 AM
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AT might be negotiable, but for me scope is not. Only possibility is if they have OLED" wallpaper" and I could just "permanently" mask off the top/bottom and make my own scope setup.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #10307 of 10318 Unread Today, 08:25 AM
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I'm very envious and desirous of OLED's contrast and picture quality.

However, in terms of replacing my projection set up I've become very used to, and appreciative of, a viewing system that I can't see a flat screen duplicating any time soon, if ever (i.e. variable size system with 4 way masking, allowing for altering the image size to adjust every source for optimal image quality, and allowing wide variations in immersion - going to image sizes no flat screen is likely to offer in anything like the near future).

One reason I haven't upgraded my old Panasonic plasma is because all my critical viewing is done in the projector room anyway. If I put an OLED in place of the plasma, it wouldn't be for viewing movies since I want the big screen experience. All I'd end up with is a superior reference for contrast and black levels vs my projection, and it's probably best I don't have that.
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post #10308 of 10318 Unread Today, 09:48 AM
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I'm very envious and desirous of OLED's contrast and picture quality.

However, in terms of replacing my projection set up I've become very used to, and appreciative of, a viewing system that I can't see a flat screen duplicating any time soon, if ever (i.e. variable size system with 4 way masking, allowing for altering the image size to adjust every source for optimal image quality, and allowing wide variations in immersion - going to image sizes no flat screen is likely to offer in anything like the near future).

One reason I haven't upgraded my old Panasonic plasma is because all my critical viewing is done in the projector room anyway. If I put an OLED in place of the plasma, it wouldn't be for viewing movies since I want the big screen experience. All I'd end up with is a superior reference for contrast and black levels vs my projection, and it's probably best I don't have that.

I don't really need " superior reference for contrast and black levels " to watch the evening news - which is more or less all I use our regular flat screen TV for.

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I don't really need " superior reference for contrast and black levels " to watch the evening news - which is more or less all I use our regular flat screen TV for.
Yes, that's essentially why I can't get excited for flat panels. I only use mine for non-critical stuff like the news, and the occasional TV show.

I certainly don't feel any need for a higher contrast flat panel display due to this minor usage. Thought I'd still be seeing amazing contrast from the OLED even if used for that. Plus, I know I couldn't resist throwing on some Blu-Rays just to see what they look like and it might be too deflating to see the type of contrast that I'm never likely to experience from projection.

But, again, the pluses of projection thus far outweigh the allure of even OLED flat screens. (I also find the current 1080p OLEDs from LG to have too coarse pixel structure. That should get better with their 4K units, but looking through the flat panel forum it seems even with 4K the fill percentage between pixels is particularly large with the LG OLED process, which leaves the possibility of still perceiving pixel structure when you are in an immersive viewing distance from the display. Unlike my JVC which has for all practical purposes no visible pixel structure with E-shift).
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post #10310 of 10318 Unread Today, 02:32 PM
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While we're on the subject of comparing large TV's that are smaller than most projector screens, I've been trying to decide for a while now on what can replace my 15 year old 64" Pioneer Elite Pro-710HD rear projection CRT TV. While the picture is not as sharp as today's TV's, I think the blacks and the motion is better. Please comment on my thoughts/choices below:

1) 85" TV, like the Samsung 85HU8550, for example. My wife like's this choice. It's simple, and it doesn't involve equipment hanging from the ceiling. The TV does look nice in the store - just not sure how it would look at home.

2) Ambient light screen + projector (Sony HW55ES or JVC X500) - a little tougher to watch in the day time.

3) Same as #2 , but add a second projector that is not quite as good, but has more lumens to help with daytime use. Of course two projectors will impact the WAF.

4) 75" TV + projector + motorized ambient light screen. Expensive...


It's been hard for me to walk away from my current TV. Thoughts??

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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
+1, I'm a fan of all of my gear that has an OLED screen. S4 phone, Gear 2 watch and the Sony HMZ-T1 goggles. The contrast is remarkable in comparison to the LCD counterparts. black is finally... black! no tricks, it's just pitch black when the image calls for it.

Why are we not seeing OLED PC monitors? I would love to have a 24-28" OLED monitor.
I know right!!! Ever since I first saw the Sony XEL-1 (11" OLED display) back in 2008, I was hooked. Going forward, I refuse to purchase any devices that don't have infinite contrast ratios, be it cell phone, laptop, TV, you name it. Hell, even my 7" screen in my vehicle should be OLED.

Maybe OLED burn-in is still more of an issue than consumers are being led to believe? Supply could be too low for them to be able to afford to put them in every device as well. But hell, even my e-Cig has an OLED display (granted it's tiny, but still...).

I'm all-in for the OLED revolution! Once you go black, you never go back, LOL!

Respectfully,
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post #10312 of 10318 Unread Today, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
They'll have to be rollable, 2.35:1 and accoustically trasnparent, or they're not going in my HT. I physically couldn't get my screen in or out assembled.
Well, it looks like you're going to be stuck with projection then...for a longggggg time...which is solid if you have a dedicated room. For folks like myself who have multi-purpose rooms, giant OLED is going to be the tits! 120" screen easily fits through my front door or back door right to where I need to hang it on the wall.

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post #10313 of 10318 Unread Today, 03:45 PM
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Yeah, multipurpose room, I'd be all over OLED, assuming it's cheap enough. But not for an HT until they solve the issues I mentioned.
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See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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Originally Posted by thezaks View Post
While we're on the subject of comparing large TV's that are smaller than most projector screens, I've been trying to decide for a while now on what can replace my 15 year old 64" Pioneer Elite Pro-710HD rear projection CRT TV. While the picture is not as sharp as today's TV's, I think the blacks and the motion is better. Please comment on my thoughts/choices below:

1) 85" TV, like the Samsung 85HU8550, for example. My wife like's this choice. It's simple, and it doesn't involve equipment hanging from the ceiling. The TV does look nice in the store - just not sure how it would look at home.

2) Ambient light screen + projector (Sony HW55ES or JVC X500) - a little tougher to watch in the day time.

3) Same as #2 , but add a second projector that is not quite as good, but has more lumens to help with daytime use. Of course two projectors will impact the WAF.

4) 75" TV + projector + motorized ambient light screen. Expensive...


It's been hard for me to walk away from my current TV. Thoughts??

Dave
Since there is no "affordable" display in 100"+ sizes, I would have to go with 100" DNP 08-85 screen & Epson 6030, or 100" DNP 23-23 screen & JVC X500. I have a 120" DNP 23-23 & JVC X700 and it's a really great combo. Even 3D is nice and bright with excellent contrast.

Well, there is this Panasonic TH103PF12U 103" plasma on sale on Amazon for $20,000 which isn't half bad. I've seen this in a restaurant here in Tallahassee and it's pretty sweet I must admit. But you can get a 90" Sharp for $6000 so $14,000 for 13" more is a tough pill to swallow. And it weighs almost 450lbs.

Respectfully,
Mr. Hatcher

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Originally Posted by thezaks View Post
While we're on the subject of comparing large TV's that are smaller than most projector screens, I've been trying to decide for a while now on what can replace my 15 year old 64" Pioneer Elite Pro-710HD rear projection CRT TV. While the picture is not as sharp as today's TV's, I think the blacks and the motion is better. Please comment on my thoughts/choices below:

1) 85" TV, like the Samsung 85HU8550, for example. My wife like's this choice. It's simple, and it doesn't involve equipment hanging from the ceiling. The TV does look nice in the store - just not sure how it would look at home.

2) Ambient light screen + projector (Sony HW55ES or JVC X500) - a little tougher to watch in the day time.

3) Same as #2 , but add a second projector that is not quite as good, but has more lumens to help with daytime use. Of course two projectors will impact the WAF.

4) 75" TV + projector + motorized ambient light screen. Expensive...


It's been hard for me to walk away from my current TV. Thoughts??

Dave
Is there any way you could darken the room more to go with #2 ? I don't think the 85" Samsung LED is worth that kind of money even for its size - although perhaps by the Nov/Dec holidays they will take larger price drops. I'm not big on the other two choices.

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Yes, that's essentially why I can't get excited for flat panels. I only use mine for non-critical stuff like the news, and the occasional TV show.

I certainly don't feel any need for a higher contrast flat panel display due to this minor usage. Thought I'd still be seeing amazing contrast from the OLED even if used for that. Plus, I know I couldn't resist throwing on some Blu-Rays just to see what they look like and it might be too deflating to see the type of contrast that I'm never likely to experience from projection.

But, again, the pluses of projection thus far outweigh the allure of even OLED flat screens. (I also find the current 1080p OLEDs from LG to have too coarse pixel structure. That should get better with their 4K units, but looking through the flat panel forum it seems even with 4K the fill percentage between pixels is particularly large with the LG OLED process, which leaves the possibility of still perceiving pixel structure when you are in an immersive viewing distance from the display. Unlike my JVC which has for all practical purposes no visible pixel structure with E-shift).
I've mentioned this several times in the past, but front projection with the right technology (using RS4810 here) and a high quality screen just gives a very analog, film-like look to a well mastered Blu-ray. I watch a lot of catalog titles and sometimes it feels like watching a new 35mm print. I've never seen any flat panel (even coming from a Panasonic VT60) or OLED that can capture this "look".

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Good suggestions and questions! I'm thinking that, for my multi-purpose room (which I forgot to mention), option #4 would work the best. It's just a bit costly. Plus, the projector screen I want to get (Elite Prime Vision Darkstar 1.4) is not yet available in a motorized version. You're right, that Samsung 85" is expensive, but if ever gets down to the $6K-7K range... I like Mr. Hatcher's suggestions for option #2 . You really can't go wrong with the DNP screens. However, I've always wanted a DNP option somewhere between the .85 and the 2.3 - something like a 1.2-1.4. The Darkstar fits the bill there, which is why it's my favorite - it's like a 1.4 DNP - it's that good.

Dave

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Since there is no "affordable" display in 100"+ sizes, I would have to go with 100" DNP 08-85 screen & Epson 6030, or 100" DNP 23-23 screen & JVC X500. I have a 120" DNP 23-23 & JVC X700 and it's a really great combo. Even 3D is nice and bright with excellent contrast.

Well, there is this Panasonic TH103PF12U 103" plasma on sale on Amazon for $20,000 which isn't half bad. I've seen this in a restaurant here in Tallahassee and it's pretty sweet I must admit. But you can get a 90" Sharp for $6000 so $14,000 for 13" more is a tough pill to swallow. And it weighs almost 450lbs.

For $20K you can get a Sony VW600 and a 120" - 135" screen. And have a better set up IMO.

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