Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 352 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #10531 of 10577 Old 02-22-2015, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darrellh44 View Post
Deja,

I apologize if my posts about the LS10000 delay bothered you. I read the PC review, but I'm not a gamer so I usually skip the review sections on input lag. But when the delay is 100 msec beyond capability of my AVR to correct, I was surprised.

Also the Felston DD740 solution PC suggested is not ideal either. First it costs $250. Second it doesn't handle HDMI connections, so you lose the ability to include the better audio formats. Third the DD740 only has four SPDIF inputs, two less than the number of HDMI inputs on my AVR. Fourth when switching sources, you must also take the extra step of switching audio inputs on the DD740. Finally when changing the LS10000 processing mode, you must manually remember and dial in the delay needed to compensate (the DD740 only remembers different delays based on its inputs).
No problem. Here's your excuse to update your receiver and move up to one that handles the new "3D" sound effects from the ceiling. I need a second receiver so I'll probably go this route and I'll make sure the new one has 2 HDMI outs, two sub-woofer outs and lots of lip sync delay.
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post #10532 of 10577 Old 02-22-2015, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Why shouldn't he be concerned? the lag time is a good bit higher than any other projector we've discussed recently. I hope those who have the LS10000 open a ticket with Epson and let them figure out how to cut it down a bit. An $8,000 projector shouldn't require external sound processor or a new AVR. Especially when the $4,000 JVC can handle it's e-shift mode without such a large lag time.

Toe - the Hue apps are endless, Lava lamp mode, Disco modes (lights go the beat of the music), IFTTT support, etc.
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post #10533 of 10577 Old 02-22-2015, 02:12 PM
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Still enjoying FullHD on my Planar PD8150 with <20 ms input lag.
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post #10534 of 10577 Old 02-22-2015, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Toe - the Hue apps are endless, Lava lamp mode, Disco modes (lights go the beat of the music), IFTTT support, etc.
Thanks for all the info, and this is now on the to buy list. This looks like it would be a lot of fun for some music listening among other things.

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post #10535 of 10577 Old 02-22-2015, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Why shouldn't he be concerned? the lag time is a good bit higher than any other projector we've discussed recently. I hope those who have the LS10000 open a ticket with Epson and let them figure out how to cut it down a bit. An $8,000 projector shouldn't require external sound processor or a new AVR. Especially when the $4,000 JVC can handle it's e-shift mode without such a large lag time.
I never said consumers should not be concerned; however, if this was of particular interest then those set on purchasing this product certainly had an opportunity to read the reviews before buying it. If the lag time was an issue then buy something else. Everyone had an opportunity to check this out for themselves -- the information was readily available. I didn't buy a LS10000 but I was certainly cognizant of the long lag time.

If I'm interested in an item and I assume it will meet my needs and it turns out it doesn't and I could easily have determined that prior to buying (and the requisite information is readily available) then how much credibility do I have when I complain? I hope that Epson can lower the lag times; however, this lag issue should not have been a surprise to anyone -- just refer to the quotes I posted from the PC review -- this wasn't a secret but rather public information and anyone who was interested could have read it. If you make an assumption and you're wrong then I would argue that you should have checked out the information available for the product before making that assumption. Especially those spending $8,000! This is what my post stated.

I suspect that even if Epson had every purchaser sign an acknowledgement which stated that the customer knew that: the laser wasn't user replaceable; that the lag times could be as long as 230ms; the convergence of the panels may not be perfect; the electronic panel alignment doesn't operate for 3D; faux 4K doesn't work for 3D; many of the image enhancements can't be used in faux 4K mode; you may or may not see ghosting in 3D mode; and so on, there would still be many customers who would sign the acknowledgement without really paying attention to it and then complain that he or she wasn't aware of one or more of the issues noted in the acknowledgement. The bottom line is -- do your homework before buying and don't make assumptions. This strategy may save you a lot of grief. More expensive items should inspire more due diligence.
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post #10536 of 10577 Old 02-22-2015, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
I suspect that even if Epson had every purchaser sign an acknowledgement which stated that the customer knew that: the laser wasn't user replaceable; that the lag times could be as long as 230ms; the convergence of the panels may not be perfect; the electronic panel alignment doesn't operate for 3D; faux 4K doesn't work for 3D; many of the image enhancements can't be used in faux 4K mode; you may or may not see ghosting in 3D mode; and so on, there would still be many customers who would sign the acknowledgement without really paying attention to it and then complain that he or she wasn't aware of one or more of the issues noted in the acknowledgement. The bottom line is -- do your homework before buying and don't make assumptions. This strategy may save you a lot of grief. More expensive items should inspire more due diligence.
That's quite the list of things the Epson doesn't include or allow you to do. I was just looking through the LS10000's manual to see what's listed for image enhancement and/or other features that don't work in certain modes.

Quote:
You cannot use Super-resolution when converting 2D images to 3D images,when a computer image is displayed. When projecting 3D images, you can use Super-resolution only with 1080p/24 Hz/frame packing signals. You cannot use 4K Enhancement when projecting 3D images….[Super Resolution] Cannot be set when a 4K or computer image is selected.
Quote:
Note: When the projector is in 3D mode, the aspect ratio is automatically set to Normal.
So no "Super Resolution" with anything except 1080p 2D and frame packed 24p 3D. No eshift for 3D. No vertical stretch if you have an anamorphic lens in 3D (this is a killer for me). No panel alignment feature in 3D. Does the frame interpolation work in 3D mode?

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post #10537 of 10577 Old 02-23-2015, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
That's quite the list of things the Epson doesn't include or allow you to do. I was just looking through the LS10000's manual to see what's listed for image enhancement and/or other features that don't work in certain modes.


So no "Super Resolution" with anything except 1080p 2D and frame packed 24p 3D. No eshift for 3D. No vertical stretch if you have an anamorphic lens in 3D (this is a killer for me). No panel alignment feature in 3D. Does the frame interpolation work in 3D mode?
Yes, both FI and dynamic laser modulation work in 3D mode. Here's the problem, at least for me, when buying an Epson product -- the 5010 didn't have either FI or DI operational in 3D mode. A year later the DI was added to 3D mode (5020) and a year after that Epson added FI for 3D mode (5030). I suspect the same will happen with the missing image enhancements for the LS10000 -- expect some features to be added to the 3D mode over the next few years with the cost remaining the same. In my opinion it's better to wait a couple of years to get Epson's final product. The real LS10000 probably won't make an appearance for a couple of more years. Even some of the reviewers can't keep track of what features do or don't work in 3D mode.

Here's where it gets confusing: Art says in his review --

"When viewing 1080 resolution content, there’s still variation. If you put in a 3D movie on Blu-ray (24fps), the LS10000 allows you to use the Super-Resolution 4K settings (added -- not according to the owner's manual!) that use the pixel shifting. You can also use CFI at the same time as both of those.

Switch to 60fps content that I recorded off of HDTV, and the 3D works fine, but does not allow either CFI or Super-Resolution (meaning 4K enhancement?). As 3D is its own magic, I’m not overly concerned on the limitations of 60fps considering the limited HDTV in 3D.
"

PC contradicts Art's claims here:

"4K Enhancement, Frame Interpolation, and 3D: When displaying a 1080p source at 24 fps, the LS10000 offers the full range of options in both 4K enhancement and frame interpolation because the system has the time to engage both. So you can set 4K-5 and Frame Interpolation to High at the same time. However, if you have a source with frame rate faster than 24 fps, the projector will allow you to use one of these two processing technologies, but not both. With a 1080p/60 or 1080i/60 signal, if you activate frame interpolation, the menu option for 4K will be grayed out, and vice versa. Due to the same frame rate limitations, 4K enhancement is not an available option when viewing 3D."

What does the last sentence mean? I would assume that for 60fps content 4K enhancement is not available for 3D (what about CFI -- Art says it isn't available for this type of content and PC says you can activate either 4K enhancement or CFI but not both and then says you can't use 4K enhancement at all in 3D mode with any content (?)); however, for 24fps material 4K enhancement and CFI are available at the same time (?). Here's how I see it: Art says for 3D with 24fps content both 4K and CFI are available. PC seems to say that 4K enhancement isn't available for 3D no matter what the frame rate is.

Here's what the owner's manual says:

"When projecting 3D images, you can use Super-resolution only with 1080p/24 Hz/frame packing signals. You cannot use 4K Enhancement when projecting 3D images."

I think PC is correct and Art got mixed-up somehow. It really is confusing since Epson has both Super Resolution and 4K Super Resolution.

My attention has now turned to the Sim2 Nero 3 but it seems to have dropped off the radar.

Last edited by Deja Vu; 02-24-2015 at 09:29 AM.
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post #10538 of 10577 Old 02-23-2015, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
So no "Super Resolution" with anything except 1080p 2D and frame packed 24p 3D. No eshift for 3D. No vertical stretch if you have an anamorphic lens in 3D (this is a killer for me). No panel alignment feature in 3D. Does the frame interpolation work in 3D mode?
For my preferences, I'm glad Epson made compromises in 3D mode in support of making better 2D features. I'll probably never watch anything in 3D.
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post #10539 of 10577 Old 02-23-2015, 02:09 PM
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That doesn't follow, that is compromising 3D features to get better 2D features. It is highly likely that if the 3D were to have the 2D features, a much more expensive processor would have been required and 2d features would not be compromised in the slightest.

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post #10540 of 10577 Old 02-23-2015, 03:20 PM
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That doesn't follow, that is compromising 3D features to get better 2D features. It is highly likely that if the 3D were to have the 2D features, a much more expensive processor would have been required and 2d features would not be compromised in the slightest.
And from what's being said about the high input lag with 4K enhancement enabled it doesn't sound like the processor they went with, let alone this theoretical one, is an expensive one.

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post #10541 of 10577 Old 02-23-2015, 04:45 PM
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That doesn't follow, that is compromising 3D features to get better 2D features. It is highly likely that if the 3D were to have the 2D features, a much more expensive processor would have been required and 2d features would not be compromised in the slightest.
I thought that's what I said. If not, that's what I meant. I'm glad I don't to pay extra for full monty 3D features (although the LS10000 does come with a pair of 3D glasses).
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post #10542 of 10577 Old 02-23-2015, 04:51 PM
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I thought that's what I said. If not, that's what I meant. I'm glad I don't to pay extra for full monty 3D features (although the LS10000 does come with a pair of 3D glasses).
Why should you have to pay more when other models costing half or lower the cost of the LS10000 include the same 2D "full monty" features in 3D as well. I think this is a bit embarrassing for Epson. It almost seems intentional so next year when they release a projector they can tout how "upgraded" everything is. Whether or not this was done intentional should be beside the point considering their lower cost 3LCD unit includes many of these features in 3D mode and projectors from other companies costing the same or less also include these features in 3D mode (and can be done with dramatically lower input lag).

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post #10543 of 10577 Old 02-24-2015, 09:50 AM
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Is the Benq W7000 the cheapest DLP 3D with lens shift?
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post #10544 of 10577 Old 02-24-2015, 10:23 AM
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I think the W1070 has lens shift.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #10545 of 10577 Old 02-24-2015, 02:38 PM
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It has a very small amount of vertical lens shift.

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post #10546 of 10577 Old 02-24-2015, 03:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Is the Benq W7000 the cheapest DLP 3D with lens shift?
besides the Sharp 30K, it's the only other lower cost model that has enough shift to work dead center on the HP. Do you still have an HP or did you swap it out a while ago?
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post #10547 of 10577 Old 02-24-2015, 03:37 PM
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besides the Sharp 30K, it's the only other lower cost model that has enough shift to work dead center on the HP. Do you still have an HP or did you swap it out a while ago?
I still have mines, going back to it.
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post #10548 of 10577 Old 02-24-2015, 03:38 PM
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I think the W1070 has lens shift.
I had it before. Basically none. Especially not for shelf mounting
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post #10549 of 10577 Old 02-24-2015, 08:20 PM
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Zombie, do you have the German Art of Flight 3d blu ray or something else? Another poster is reporting the German 3d blu ray played in his region A PS3 and PS4 and was wondering if you could confirm this will play in a region A player if you have the German disc? I would LOVE to import this 3d disc, but always assumed it was region locked which does not seem to be the case with the German edition if this report is accurate.

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post #10550 of 10577 Old 02-24-2015, 09:04 PM - Thread Starter
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I just looked at the disc case, it claims region ABC but I dusted off my old Pioneer BDP-05FD and the disc claims it needs to be in a region B player. I can check the PS4 tomorrow just to be certain.

For these import disks, I usually pull the image to the network storage and use the Mede8ter for playback, it can play back just about anything. Maybe pick up an inexpensive 3D BD player that can be region hacked? Big Hero 6 is due for release outside the US in March, that movie has to be seen in 3D.

I'm about to check out the other 3D disk tonight
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post #10551 of 10577 Old 02-24-2015, 09:09 PM
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Thanks for checking. I should just grab the region free mod kit for my Oppo which is under $100 from what I've read.

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post #10552 of 10577 Old 02-25-2015, 07:57 PM
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Holy hell!!

Got the disc today (Lichtmond 1 3d) and first off it plays perfectly in my region A Oppo 93 and has a 7.1 DTS-HD-MA 96/24 track. I have only listened to the first 10 minutes at a low volume, but even in that 10 minutes there are some crazy panning effects and movement around the 7 channels. You can tell this audio track means business! Cant wait to really turn it up.

Now, what really blew me away in the first 10 minutes was the 3d which might be the best 3d I have EVER seen. Right from the opening frame, this one lets you know it means business as there are stars flying out of the screen into the room. There is more pop out in just the first 10 minutes of this disc than most discs I have seen. There is a scene with a fish that rivals the potato cod from Under the Sea. To top it off, depth is absolutely incredible. Again, this is just after watching 10 minutes. I cant wait to crank this up and watch/listen to the whole thing! The 3d is VERY, VERY aggressive and I can only imagine this one is going to give non single chip DLPs fits for ghosting/crosstalk.

I am ordering the other 2 from Amazon.de. These are NO BRAINERS for any big 3d fan and/or multichannel music fan!

Zombie, did you watch part 2? I don't get real excited about most 3d I watch these days as most of it is a bit too conservative for me, but that is NOT the case here. This is the type of 3d I love. VERY aggressive and consistently great. New demo disc for me!

Edit: The real fun comes with pairing your own music with these IMO. I am a huge Dead/Phish fan and pairing some nice long improv type jams to these tripped out visuals is fantastic!

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post #10553 of 10577 Old 02-26-2015, 12:41 AM - Thread Starter
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I just watched the first 20 minutes, that is very intense 3D, possibly the most aggressive i've seen as well. I'll finish watching it this weekend. that is definitely some good demo material.
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post #10554 of 10577 Old 02-26-2015, 05:06 PM
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A little off topic. I saw a 4K demo today and a demo of a LG 1080p OLED T.V. I liked 1080p on the OLED better than 4K with the other T.V.s. (that's not to say the 4K demo wasn't good -- it was very impressive). 1080p OLED is spectacular -- I suspect 4K OLED will be really amazing although I find it hard to believe it could look much better than the 1080p set I saw today.
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A little off topic. I saw a 4K demo today and a demo of a LG 1080p OLED T.V. I liked 1080p on the OLED better than 4K with the other T.V.s. (that's not to say the 4K demo wasn't good -- it was very impressive). 1080p OLED is spectacular -- I suspect 4K OLED will be really amazing although I find it hard to believe it could look much better than the 1080p set I saw today.
Yeah, I bet that LG 77" 4K OLED is the tits! OLED rocks!

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post #10557 of 10577 Old 02-26-2015, 05:22 PM - Thread Starter
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On the volume 2 disk I just watched last night, the 3D is constantly in your face, there is no ignoring it. I barely got through Sammy's 2, they killed the story on this one imo.

The intense music and heavy 3D CGI effects + rotating Hue lights in my room is quite a trip... You have to buy at least 1 of these disks to check out.
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post #10558 of 10577 Old 02-26-2015, 05:41 PM
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On the volume 2 disk I just watched last night, the 3D is constantly in your face, there is no ignoring it. I barely got through Sammy's 2, they killed the story on this one imo.

The intense music and heavy 3D CGI effects + rotating Hue lights in my room is quite a trip... You have to buy at least 1 of these disks to check out.
You have truly created the ultimate bachelor pad, LOL!

But yeah, it looks like I'm going to have to check these disks out.

Micro Monsters 3D was pretty AWESOME!

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post #10559 of 10577 Old 02-26-2015, 06:11 PM
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A little off topic. I saw a 4K demo today and a demo of a LG 1080p OLED T.V. I liked 1080p on the OLED better than 4K with the other T.V.s. (that's not to say the 4K demo wasn't good -- it was very impressive). 1080p OLED is spectacular -- I suspect 4K OLED will be really amazing although I find it hard to believe it could look much better than the 1080p set I saw today.
OLED rules! I have an LG 1080p OLED, and it's crazy good - without a doubt, hands down, bar none, indubitably the best display I've ever owned. It's spoiled me rotten. Nothing else I've had comes even close. 4K OLED is on my radar, but I'm waiting until the prices come down - hopefully by the end of the year. But I keep taking those Best Buy surveys that promise a $5,000 shopping spree. If I win, a 65" 4K OLED is going on my wall.
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post #10560 of 10577 Old 02-26-2015, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post
OLED rules! I have an LG 1080p OLED, and it's crazy good - without a doubt, hands down, bar none, indubitably the best display I've ever owned. It's spoiled me rotten. Nothing else I've had comes even close. 4K OLED is on my radar, but I'm waiting until the prices come down - hopefully by the end of the year. But I keep taking those Best Buy surveys that promise a $5,000 shopping spree. If I win, a 65" 4K OLED is going on my wall.
Now, if the 77" LG OLED was priced within reason (which would surprise me) I'd be all over it and I doubt front projection would hold much appeal for me in comparison -- heresy I know.
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