Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 355 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #10621 of 11396 Old 03-15-2015, 08:35 AM - Thread Starter
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needs to spend more time with a VW1100, I don't think they looked at 3D or good 4K sources which looks remarkable on the 1100.

for your interests in 3D, what is the point of the LS10000? I've seen 2 pieces of info that tell enough for the 3D perfectionist, it's basically the same performance as every other non-DLP we've seen so far. Since 2011, these projectors went through only 2 '3D' phases so far.

phase 1 was the RS40/45/SonyVW90/Mitsubishi HC9000/HC5 where the 3D was below average, even for casual 3D viewing. obvious x-talk in many scenes.

phase 2, Sony HW55/VW1000/VW95/VW600/JVC RS46/4910/Epson 50x0 series/LS9600/10000 - all improvements over the phase 1 release models. Adjustable brightness modes can mask a good bit of high offending x-talk at the cost of light output. definitely good enough for most HT enthusiasts.

you mentioned 1 of your 3 DLP projector cannot handle the Teranex well, I believe it was the Panasonic? if this the case, the non-DLP's don't likely stand a chance.

Are you still using that multi projector setup with the passive glasses?
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post #10622 of 11396 Old 03-15-2015, 09:11 AM
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I'd LOVE to check out a Sim2 Nero 3 next. I have an affinity for DLP projectors, especially the higher end ones. There's just something so natural looking with a good DLP image that LCoS and LCD cannot recreate in my opinion. What's terrible however is that there are few DLP units that have relatively competitive contrast performance by today's standards. I would imagine the Nero 3 to have a competitive edge to some of the LCD-variant units out there. I don't need "best in class" just something that looks "good enough" with darker material. The Planar PD8150 and the new Runco clones are a good example of this. I'm just looking for something like those unit but with 3D and FI included. The Nero 3 could be the one.

The guy who originally owned the Lumis HOST before I had it (a member on this forum) told me he replaced the HOST with a 3D Lumis and it's 2D performance looked identical to the HOST.
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post #10623 of 11396 Old 03-15-2015, 10:26 AM - Thread Starter
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I wouldn't make any assumptions on N3, .65, completely different chassis than the lumis.

I'm curious to see how many 9600 and 10000's sell this year. I think it will remain a relatively niche projector given the somewhat limited distribution, price vs. competition, etc. only 6 months to go for hopefully some good news in the fall. but I still don't see any breakthroughs in non-DLP 3D or 3D DLP with better contrast than is what is currently available.

maybe if they switch over to that 2 panel process that has been discussed but can't see that in the near future.
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post #10624 of 11396 Old 03-18-2015, 07:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Runco LS-3 on ebay, someone is going to get it for a great price.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Runco-1080p-...-/321697842513

if anyone is looking for a great 2D projector with inexpensive OEM lamps still available, hurry up.

I can't bring myself to part with my custom DC4 Planar 8170™. Planar paid close attention to creating very good out of the box color performance, impressive for the time period this projector was released nearly 8 years ago. It's also nice to see a naturally sharp image without the need for reality creation, e-shift, etc. Although JVC has done a great job getting close to single panel sharpness without the need for image enhancement.

I prefer the Planar model with the gloss finish, this is a great looking projector.

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post #10625 of 11396 Old 03-19-2015, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
There's just something so natural looking with a good DLP image that LCoS and LCD cannot recreate in my opinion.
This has always intrigued since I've never really got a look at a good DLP and I've heard this before, but I've also heard LCoS looks more natural than DLP. lol

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post #10626 of 11396 Old 03-19-2015, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
This has always intrigued since I've never really got a look at a good DLP and I've heard this before, but I've also heard LCoS looks more natural than DLP. lol
There's no way to say this without sounding snobbish but I doubt people making those claims have seen as many DLP and LCoS projectors I have. The high end DLPs just have something about their image that looks so organic and natural. I've never seen that look recreated from an LCoS machine. But of course most LCoS projectors have their benefits with contrast and a "smooth" image look that DLP cannot achieve.
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post #10627 of 11396 Old 03-19-2015, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
There's no way to say this without sounding snobbish but I doubt people making those claims have seen as many DLP and LCoS projectors I have. The high end DLPs just have something about their image that looks so organic and natural. I've never seen that look recreated from an LCoS machine. But of course most LCoS projectors have their benefits with contrast and a "smooth" image look that DLP cannot achieve.
Just curious, what models and price range are in that DLP category?

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post #10628 of 11396 Old 03-19-2015, 08:33 AM
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Many of them are not for sale anymore. But that list includes:

Sharp XV-Z20000
Marantz VP-11S1, VP-15S1, VP-11S2
Planar PD8150, PD8130
Runco LS-1, LS-3, LS-5
Runco Q750i, Q650i
Vivitek H9080FD
NuVision ProVu P2
Sim2 Mico50
TruVue Vango
Samsung SP-A800B, SPA900B
InFocus IN81, IN82, IN83

Almost any of the .95" single chip DLPs meet the mark.
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post #10629 of 11396 Old 03-19-2015, 08:36 AM
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I would be very curious just to try one out. What is the lower end price range on some of those and do they offer lens memories (I use CIH zoom with my RS4810 and 2:35 screen). Also, is there any risk of screen door effect sitting 10 feet back from a 9 feet wide screen with them?

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post #10630 of 11396 Old 03-19-2015, 08:39 AM
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None of them offer lens memories. Lens memory functionality is something we've only seen in the last few years and all of those models are much older than that. In fact, only the TruVue Vango and Sim2 Mico 50 offer motorized lens functions, but no memory feature. Only one DLP projector that I'm aware of in the under $10000 market offers it (and it's no longer for sale), the Sharp XV-Z30000. Here's a list I compiled of the projector models that offer lens memory functionality. As you'll see, it's not a long list:

List of Projectors with Lens Memory


SDE should be very low on all of these models. Pixel Fill Factor is 87% on these DLP models, which is pretty close to LCoS. You really only have issues with LCD models and SDE.
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post #10631 of 11396 Old 03-19-2015, 09:45 AM
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I would imagine it wouldn't be hard to just manually re-zoom for CIH if you have really small marks (maybe tape on the frame) where to stop for 1:78 and 1:85 movies when zooming. For 2:35 it would easy,of course. I don't use my projector as a TV, only Blu-ray movies too, so I wouldn't even have to do it each time as most movies I watch tend to be scope any way. Even when I switch to a different lens memory on my RS4810, I have to tweak it a bit manually to get it centered as it's always just a hair off.

However, it sounds like the Sharp XV-Z30000 would be right up my alley but is only a .65 chip. I imagine a lot better performance with the .95?

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post #10632 of 11396 Old 03-19-2015, 09:58 AM
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I think most of those don't even have the zoom range necessary for CIH. IIRC most DLPs top out at about 1.25-1.3x, not the required 1.33x.
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See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #10633 of 11396 Old 03-19-2015, 10:02 AM
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The Z30K is by far the best .65" DLP DMD projector I've seen and used. I think the larger DMD projectors offer a sharper image, offer higher native contrast and a more refined image all around, but then again, considering the original MSRP of the ones I've listed, one should expect better image quality. I'd keep an eye on the used market. It's unfortunate for the sellers, but good the buyers, that most of these models sell for less than $1500 on the used market these days. I think the issue surrounding this is uninformed consumers equate newer with better, but in the DLP world it's actually not true regarding units sold in the under $15000 market. Most of the newer units have actually gone backwards when it comes to overall picture quality (and build quality).
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post #10634 of 11396 Old 03-19-2015, 11:42 AM
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I think most of those don't even have the zoom range necessary for CIH. IIRC most DLPs top out at about 1.25-1.3x, not the required 1.33x.
Good to know.

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post #10635 of 11396 Old 03-19-2015, 11:56 AM
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I think most of those don't even have the zoom range necessary for CIH. IIRC most DLPs top out at about 1.25-1.3x, not the required 1.33x.
This is a very good point and there is a very good reason for this. The size of the DMD (.95") makes quite the difference in terms of lens size needed for a ton of zoom and lens shift. The size in which the lens needs to be to focus/zoom/shift upon is larger than that of the other 1080p and 4K consumer imagers out there currently. Sony's 1080p SXRD chip is .61", their 4K SXRD chip is 74", Epson's LCD and LCoQ chips are .74" and JVC's D-ILA panel is .70". Even against the larger imagers (.74") this .95" is still 22% larger in area. The cost of optics goes up exponentially as you increase their size. So it can be difficult to attain the same amount of zoom and lens shift that the other projectors with the smaller imagers can do at the same price point because the size of the optics would need to go up and in turn the cost would go up. This is one of the primary reasons we saw the introduction of a .65" DMD. It solves the issue of lens size and cost in relation to the amount of lens shift and zoom one can give in competition with other display technologies.
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post #10636 of 11396 Old 03-19-2015, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
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it's interesting looking at great BD sources like Skyfall and Oblivion on the various projectors in my setup. Despite the noticeably lower native contrast, there are certain types of scenes that can look better on the DC4 Planar vs the JVC.



I think the Planar dithering is better when you look closely at the backgrounds.

The Sharp 30K is not quite as sharp as the .95 Planar but still a light year ahead of a projector like the HW50/55 without the reality creation. It's about the same as my X35/RS46.

3D on the 30K is remarkably clean and razor sharp. 2D is quite good as well, lamps are dirt cheap so I use it like a TV.
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post #10637 of 11396 Old 03-19-2015, 03:09 PM
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So, it sounds like a .95 isn't going to work for me?


Does the Sharp 30000 still offer a more film-like image compared to the JVC RS4810, Seegs and Zombie?

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post #10638 of 11396 Old 03-19-2015, 06:11 PM
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Between the two I'd pick the JVC for 2D viewing. The Sharp is excellent in it's own right, but it takes something quite special to look better than what these newer JVCs can produce for overall PQ. I do love a good DLP, but right now I'm using my X500 as my go-to projector for most content these days. I think the only worthy overall image to challenge the JVC (or Sony 4K's) would be the Planar PD8150 (or the Runco LS-5 as it's currently being sold as) or one of a handful of 3-chip DLPs (Sim2 Lumis, Runco LS-10i, DP Cine260HC). DLP is struggling to keep it's own right now in a market of high contrast, high brightness, low cost LCoS alternatives. Unless TI does something magical to revive the $3000+ DLP market we may be swimming in an LCoS only pool of projectors from here on out unless you're willing to pay $20000+ for something DLP.
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post #10639 of 11396 Old 03-19-2015, 07:08 PM
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How much are used Runco LS-5s going for? If I could pick up one of these .95 DLPs at a decent price, I would consider it...then it might not work with CIH zoom if not 1.33x? 2D is all I view.

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post #10640 of 11396 Old 03-19-2015, 07:18 PM
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This one sold for $790 last week. That is a steal! Though I'd say anything less than $1500 is a great deal on one. Remember the PD8150 is the same projector as the LS-5. Planar bought Runco in 2008 and moved the PD line of projectors over to the LS line. The only thing different is the chassis now matte black on the Runco models. Though you can't do CIH with the lens. It only offers 1.30x zoom. At the minimum you need 1.33x. To get it to work you'd need to use zoom and move the projector closer to the screen slightly.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/301556889581...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
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post #10641 of 11396 Old 03-19-2015, 07:19 PM
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There is an LS-3 for sale here:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Runco-1080p-...3D301556889581

The only difference is that it has a DC2 DMD vs DC3 on the LS-5. The DC3 DMD does make for a better contrast experience. If you're handy enough you could swap the DMD for a DC4 like Zombie and I did.
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post #10642 of 11396 Old 03-19-2015, 07:26 PM
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This one sold for $790 last week. That is a steal! Though I'd say anything less than $1500 is a great deal on one. Remember the PD8150 is the same projector as the LS-5. Planar bought Runco in 2008 and moved the PD line of projectors over to the LS line. The only thing different is the chassis now matte black on the Runco models. Though you can't do CIH with the lens. It only offers 1.30x zoom. At the minimum you need 1.33x. To get it to work you'd need to use zoom and move the projector closer to the screen slightly.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/301556889581...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I would still keep my RS4810, so I could use that for 1:85 (and scope, of course when I want) and maybe just use the .95 DLP for scope or that probably depends on the throw. If I don't like the Planar, I should be able to sell what I paid I would think.


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post #10643 of 11396 Old 03-19-2015, 07:32 PM - Thread Starter
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that was a fun project. Only 2 of these on planet earth. Well maybe a 3rd in an ex Planar engineers basement.

Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - link to the DC4 .95 DMD swap






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post #10644 of 11396 Old 03-20-2015, 04:22 AM
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it's interesting looking at great BD sources like Skyfall and Oblivion on the various projectors in my setup. Despite the noticeably lower native contrast, there are certain types of scenes that can look better on the DC4 Planar vs the JVC.



I think the Planar dithering is better when you look closely at the backgrounds.

The Sharp 30K is not quite as sharp as the .95 Planar but still a light year ahead of a projector like the HW50/55 without the reality creation. It's about the same as my X35/RS46.

3D on the 30K is remarkably clean and razor sharp. 2D is quite good as well, lamps are dirt cheap so I use it like a TV.
zombie, an x-35 owner here, and have to say I for one quite amazed to see the x-35 hanging in there in your setup. perhaps I missed it but did you ever consider upgrading to one of the later ivc's x-500 or 700 equivalent you guys get.

or you hanging out for the true 4k jvcs. later this year 4k blu-ray lands, cant see jvc sitting by the wayside with no projector to do it justice.

I haven't seen a reason to upgrade my x-35 to be honest. the sharpness and pop, richness of colour/depth etc of the jvc has me transfixed ! haven't seen enough reason to upgrade myself. keen to hear your thoughts

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post #10645 of 11396 Old 03-20-2015, 06:30 AM
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I thought he had an RS55. It can't be an X35 because it has a motorized lens cover.
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post #10646 of 11396 Old 03-20-2015, 06:39 AM
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I thought he had an RS55. It can't be an X35 because it has a motorized lens cover.
He posted

"The Sharp 30K is not quite as sharp as the .95 Planar but still a light year ahead of a projector like the HW50/55 without the reality creation. It's about the same as my X35/RS46."

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post #10647 of 11396 Old 03-20-2015, 06:41 AM
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post #10648 of 11396 Old 03-20-2015, 07:26 AM - Thread Starter
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zombie, an x-35 owner here, and have to say I for one quite amazed to see the x-35 hanging in there in your setup. perhaps I missed it but did you ever consider upgrading to one of the later ivc's x-500 or 700 equivalent you guys get.

or you hanging out for the true 4k jvcs. later this year 4k blu-ray lands, cant see jvc sitting by the wayside with no projector to do it justice.

I haven't seen a reason to upgrade my x-35 to be honest. the sharpness and pop, richness of colour/depth etc of the jvc has me transfixed ! haven't seen enough reason to upgrade myself. keen to hear your thoughts
Hi, that is an older photo of my RS55. I've had an X35/RS46 for a while as well, it has excellent focus and convergence.

I've compared the base model many times to the 4910/X500 and RS57/X700 with a direct A/B split of the same source, both projectors calibrated, etc. I didn't see enough of a substantial improvement to upgrade this year. e-shift and the iris are nice but not entirely necessary for what the JVC already does well which is provide strong native contrast and a naturally sharp image.

I just watched Dracula Untold the other night on the JVC and it looked excellent. I also use it for many of stage concerts as well.

it's a shame JVC discontinued the base model, if they could have sold it at around 2500 street , it would make picking the 5030 or HW40/55 a more difficult choice.
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post #10649 of 11396 Old 03-20-2015, 12:49 PM
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Hi, that is an older photo of my RS55. I've had an X35/RS46 for a while as well, it has excellent focus and convergence.

I've compared the base model many times to the 4910/X500 and RS57/X700 with a direct A/B split of the same source, both projectors calibrated, etc. I didn't see enough of a substantial improvement to upgrade this year. e-shift and the iris are nice but not entirely necessary for what the JVC already does well which is provide strong native contrast and a naturally sharp image.

I just watched Dracula Untold the other night on the JVC and it looked excellent. I also use it for many of stage concerts as well.

it's a shame JVC discontinued the base model, if they could have sold it at around 2500 street , it would make picking the 5030 or HW40/55 a more difficult choice.

The eshift is nice but the DI is the main feature on the current models. I sold mines and picked up a RS35 for $800. I know it's an older model but I haven't really notice a difference between the two. I guess there are some if an A/B was being done but that's something I won't sweat over not doing.
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post #10650 of 11396 Old 03-20-2015, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Hi, that is an older photo of my RS55. I've had an X35/RS46 for a while as well, it has excellent focus and convergence.

I've compared the base model many times to the 4910/X500 and RS57/X700 with a direct A/B split of the same source, both projectors calibrated, etc. I didn't see enough of a substantial improvement to upgrade this year. e-shift and the iris are nice but not entirely necessary for what the JVC already does well which is provide strong native contrast and a naturally sharp image.

I just watched Dracula Untold the other night on the JVC and it looked excellent. I also use it for many of stage concerts as well.

it's a shame JVC discontinued the base model, if they could have sold it at around 2500 street , it would make picking the 5030 or HW40/55 a more difficult choice.
yes hit on the nail there I think on the strengths sharpness and native contrast. I too think pity they discontinued the x-35, with people having no choice but to buy the model up. great to hear thoughts on A/B comparisons.

this years models perhaps a gap fill, be interesting to see what comes next

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