Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 367 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #10981 of 11372 Old 04-30-2015, 07:02 PM
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It sounds like the Sonys have a bit more accurate color than the JVCs at all saturation points.

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post #10982 of 11372 Old 04-30-2015, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atanuray View Post
Seegs, how is the 2D performance of Z17K? Especially after clamping down the manual iris?
I must have missed your post. It's a good performer for a DLP projector in it's current price range. It has a very sharp image and if you utilize the manual iris it will help quite a bit with contrast performance. 3D is where this unit really shines though.

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post #10983 of 11372 Old 04-30-2015, 10:17 PM - Thread Starter
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JVC in space?

This is interesting, screen innovations made a 65" slate screen for the ISS.

http://www.screeninnovations.com/new...reen-in-space/

http://news.yahoo.com/space-station-...164434029.html



Personally, I would have passed on Gravity and watched the original Alien, or Event Horizon...



the interesting part though is that it seems they are using the laser based JVC although they don't specifically state it.

some info that led me to believe this could be the case:

mentioned in the 1st link:

After the first prototype screen had been built, SI traveled to NASA’s mockup facilities in Houston, Texas. A projector manufacturer provided a new, 1080p laser projector for the project that uses a new laser light-source technology. Before the introduction of this new laser technology, the maximum lifetime of a projector’s bulb averaged about 3,000 hours. With a laser projector, a single bulb can produce zero image degradation for up to 30,000 hours, or about 3.4 years of constant use – truly stunning. As SI deployed the screen and attached its four corners to the ISS module to display a 65-inch image floating in mid-air, the excitement among those present was palpable. It was a glimpse of what would become the first man-cave in space – a remarkable achievement. The NASA team finally decided that using one of the mounting arms already in place for crewmembers’ laptops would work perfectly for placing the projector. This gave the screen plenty of throw distance, and securing the projector to the mount with one of NASA’s Velcro strips would be a piece of cake.

SI and JVC are partners at the various events

http://www.screeninnovations.com/new...-jvc-ces-2015/

We again partnered with JVC for CES 2015 providing them with a killer 120 inch Zero Edge Slate.



There are JVC's in the background of the video on how they were chosen by NASA to make the screen.



if this is the case though, it would seem odd that JVC wouldn't want their name written all over an event like this.
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post #10984 of 11372 Old 05-01-2015, 02:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
This is interesting, screen innovations made a 65" slate screen for the ISS.

http://www.screeninnovations.com/new...reen-in-space/

http://news.yahoo.com/space-station-...164434029.html



Personally, I would have passed on Gravity and watched the original Alien, or Event Horizon...



the interesting part though is that it seems they are using the laser based JVC although they don't specifically state it.

some info that led me to believe this could be the case:

mentioned in the 1st link:

After the first prototype screen had been built, SI traveled to NASA’s mockup facilities in Houston, Texas. A projector manufacturer provided a new, 1080p laser projector for the project that uses a new laser light-source technology. Before the introduction of this new laser technology, the maximum lifetime of a projector’s bulb averaged about 3,000 hours. With a laser projector, a single bulb can produce zero image degradation for up to 30,000 hours, or about 3.4 years of constant use – truly stunning. As SI deployed the screen and attached its four corners to the ISS module to display a 65-inch image floating in mid-air, the excitement among those present was palpable. It was a glimpse of what would become the first man-cave in space – a remarkable achievement. The NASA team finally decided that using one of the mounting arms already in place for crewmembers’ laptops would work perfectly for placing the projector. This gave the screen plenty of throw distance, and securing the projector to the mount with one of NASA’s Velcro strips would be a piece of cake.

SI and JVC are partners at the various events

http://www.screeninnovations.com/new...-jvc-ces-2015/

We again partnered with JVC for CES 2015 providing them with a killer 120 inch Zero Edge Slate.


There are JVC's in the background of the video on how they were chosen by NASA to make the screen.



if this is the case though, it would seem odd that JVC wouldn't want their name written all over an event like this.





Maybe it was Epson !?
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post #10985 of 11372 Old 05-01-2015, 08:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by d.j. View Post
Maybe it was Epson !?
I knew someone was going to say that.

possible, but I think it's more likely that it's the laser based JVC's that are used in the simulator market. They can be mounted at any angle.

If my info above is correct, it's strange that they wouldn't want their name associated with NASA and the ISS. That is free advertising since this article was all over the various news sources.

1st man-cave in space... ! Now we need to do something about all that ambient light. Maybe some velvet on the next trip up there.

And sound? maybe some butt-kickers? I volunteer to go up there and give them a hand.
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post #10986 of 11372 Old 05-01-2015, 08:08 AM
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According to this article, it's a commercial laser unit. I don't think Epson makes commercial laser projectors:

Quote:
NASA paired SI's viewscreen with a commercial HD laser-light projector. The projector is held in place on the space station using Velcro and the same mounts the crew relies on to hold their laptops in place.

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post #10987 of 11372 Old 05-01-2015, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
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that's why I think it's the JVC laser discussed here, it already has a thumbs up from the FAA.

http://pro.jvc.com/pro/pr/2014/releases/blu-escent.html

The DLA-VS2500 and DLA-VS2300 represent the first three-chip laser hybrid projectors specifically designed for simulation, and have been designed to meet both FAA Level D and ICAO regulatory requirements.

so are the astronauts arguing over e-shift on or off? Do you hear the e-shift buzz noise in space? Can someone send them a Darbee on the next trip? And a movie better than Gravity?
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post #10988 of 11372 Old 05-01-2015, 01:28 PM
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Zombie, Have you done any head to head comparisons between the sony 350es and 600es? If so, what did you see as the main differences between the two? Any other PJ's in that space that are worth a look as well?

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post #10989 of 11372 Old 05-01-2015, 01:51 PM
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Between a newly manufactured 600ES (due to the new optical block being implemented) and a 350ES there should be no perceivable difference in image quality as long as you brightness match the two units with the manual iris on the 600ES. After all the two projectors are nearly identical hardware-wise, minus the dynamic/manual iris and higher lumen output bulb on the 600ES. But when you enabled the dynamic iris on the 600ES, this model will have a serious advantage in terms of on/off contrast performance. From what I hear, the street price difference between these two models is close enough were it makes sense to get the 600ES. The 350ES is lacking enough in the contrast department where, for many, it makes little sense to make such a large investment on something with poor contrast performance for a 2015 projector at it's price point.

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post #10990 of 11372 Old 05-01-2015, 02:35 PM
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What is the native contrast difference between the 600 and 1000/1100 Sonys?

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post #10991 of 11372 Old 05-01-2015, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Zombie, Have you done any head to head comparisons between the sony 350es and 600es? If so, what did you see as the main differences between the two? Any other PJ's in that space that are worth a look as well?
If you ask for a head to head comparison, as opposed to a general opinion, search for a post from Craig Peer I believe where they did compare the 600 with and w/o DI and the difference with real world material was - read it yourself. I do not feel paying 35% more in my case is worth the difference, but then I am of those who considers on/off as one of many picture qualities...
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post #10992 of 11372 Old 05-01-2015, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
that's why I think it's the JVC laser discussed here, it already has a thumbs up from the FAA.

http://pro.jvc.com/pro/pr/2014/releases/blu-escent.html

The DLA-VS2500 and DLA-VS2300 represent the first three-chip laser hybrid projectors specifically designed for simulation, and have been designed to meet both FAA Level D and ICAO regulatory requirements.

so are the astronauts arguing over e-shift on or off? Do you hear the e-shift buzz noise in space? Can someone send them a Darbee on the next trip? And a movie better than Gravity?

Sadly 900 ANSI lumen is not enought
http://jvcpro.co.uk/video/product/58...ogy-with-lens/


dj
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post #10993 of 11372 Old 05-01-2015, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
that's why I think it's the JVC laser discussed here, it already has a thumbs up from the FAA.

http://pro.jvc.com/pro/pr/2014/releases/blu-escent.html

The DLA-VS2500 and DLA-VS2300 represent the first three-chip laser hybrid projectors specifically designed for simulation, and have been designed to meet both FAA Level D and ICAO regulatory requirements.

so are the astronauts arguing over e-shift on or off? Do you hear the e-shift buzz noise in space? Can someone send them a Darbee on the next trip? And a movie better than Gravity?
Thanks for the link Jason. I foresee JVC releasing two or three lamp based models and one solid state model this year. Lets see if I'm right...

I believe it will be another 2-3 years before JVC releases an "affordable" solid state native 4K home theater projector.

And yes, I like to always set my hopes really low, that way I'm never disappointed.

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Originally Posted by d.j. View Post
Sadly 900 ANSI lumen is not enought
http://jvcpro.co.uk/video/product/58...ogy-with-lens/

dj
I'm with ya there. JVC needs to up the lumen output to at least 1500 lumens this year.

And for the love of gaming, please bake in a game mode with <35ms of input lag!

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post #10994 of 11372 Old 05-01-2015, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
What is the native contrast difference between the 600 and 1000/1100 Sonys?



Acording to Cine4home:


Typic for the 600 is about 6.000:1 - 9.000:1
For the 1000/1100 is about 10.000:1 - 18.000:1


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post #10995 of 11372 Old 05-01-2015, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hatcher View Post
Thanks for the link Jason. I foresee JVC releasing two or three lamp based models and one solid state model this year. Lets see if I'm right...

I believe it will be another 2-3 years before JVC releases an "affordable" solid state native 4K home theater projector.

And yes, I like to always set my hopes really low, that way I'm never disappointed.



I'm with ya there. JVC needs to up the lumen output to at least 1500 lumens this year.

And for the love of gaming, please bake in a game mode with <35ms of input lag!


Look at the spec in the link ( ≤25ms Frame Delay )


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post #10996 of 11372 Old 05-01-2015, 04:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Zombie, Have you done any head to head comparisons between the sony 350es and 600es? If so, what did you see as the main differences between the two? Any other PJ's in that space that are worth a look as well?
The only real difference between the 350 and 600 is the iris, so the later will be a little more convincing in low APL scenes.

Do you need this much light output in your setup?
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post #10997 of 11372 Old 05-01-2015, 04:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hatcher View Post
Thanks for the link Jason. I foresee JVC releasing two or three lamp based models and one solid state model this year. Lets see if I'm right...

I believe it will be another 2-3 years before JVC releases an "affordable" solid state native 4K home theater projector.

And yes, I like to always set my hopes really low, that way I'm never disappointed.
that could be a good forecast. It wouldn't taken them much to put the iris in the e-shift simulator version and sell it as a home theater model. Add full HDMI 2.0 / HDCP 2.2 and I bet it will sell quicker than the Epson 10000.
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post #10998 of 11372 Old 05-01-2015, 05:14 PM
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Look at the spec in the link ( ≤25ms Frame Delay )

dj
Ah, nice! Glad the UK site lists this spec as I don't see it on the US site spec sheet. I sure hope that feature finds it's way to the consumer versions, and I don't know why it wouldn't.

1 Frame Delay = 33ms from what I've read online so less than 1 frame of delay would be outstanding coming from the almost 4 Frame Delay (~125ms) of my JVC X700R. I play a lot of Call of Duty online multiplayer and currently I lose a lot of battles when me and an opponent walk around a corner at the same hypothetical time. You can tell in the kill cam that they easily saw me before I saw them. That's pretty annoying, but I would rather live with that than to get a projector with worse PQ.

Also, the UK site lists the lumen output as "900 ANSI Lumens (minimum)" whereas the US site lists "Light Output: Minimum 1100 ANSI Lumens". So that's conflicting for the same model # DLA-VS2500ZG [see links below].

Exciting times though! Well, for technology but not for my bank account.

UK Site:
http://jvcpro.co.uk/video/product/58...ogy-with-lens/

US Site:
http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/f...l_id=MDL102324

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post #10999 of 11372 Old 05-01-2015, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
that could be a good forecast. It wouldn't taken them much to put the iris in the e-shift simulator version and sell it as a home theater model. Add full HDMI 2.0 / HDCP 2.2 and I bet it will sell quicker than the Epson 10000.
Exactly! I don't think it would be a smart business move to release a full lineup of 4K only projectors this year...especially in such a niche market.

I'm sticking with my X700 until an affordable native 4K, solid-state, low input lag(</=35ms), same or better contrast and black levels, and hopefully a little brighter projector is released. The sooner the better, but I'm not getting my hopes up for this year.

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post #11000 of 11372 Old 05-01-2015, 06:23 PM
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The only real difference between the 350 and 600 is the iris, so the later will be a little more convincing in low APL scenes.

Do you need this much light output in your setup?
I would certainly welcome it. I went from a w7000 that was a cannon to the 4910 which has a MUCH better picture, but near as potent with lights on. I host a lot of sporting events where the lights on (Batcave otherwise) are a requirement but for movies, I am full-on dark mode in the room. I would love the capability of more lumens on the screen at 138" 16:9 with 16ft throw distance. The 4910 isn't lacking really anyways, but with lights on I do lose a decent amount....... Maybe some darker carpet is a good idea instead? Definitely much cheaper! Hahha..... wouldn't help the lag situation at all though.

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post #11001 of 11372 Old 05-01-2015, 07:06 PM
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I would certainly welcome it. I went from a w7000 that was a cannon to the 4910 which has a MUCH better picture, but near as potent with lights on. I host a lot of sporting events where the lights on (Batcave otherwise) are a requirement but for movies, I am full-on dark mode in the room. I would love the capability of more lumens on the screen at 138" 16:9 with 16ft throw distance. The 4910 isn't lacking really anyways, but with lights on I do lose a decent amount....... Maybe some darker carpet is a good idea instead? Definitely much cheaper! Hahha..... wouldn't help the lag situation at all though.
You could just get a cheaper secondary projector for sports, gaming, and general lights on viewing such as the Optoma HD141X. It fits the bill well...unless you have to have 4K. It has long lamp life, ~17ms input lag for gaming which is excellent, and 3D. All for $600, can't beat that! The only real downside is placement flexibility.

Personally, it's too early in the game to go 4K unless you just have the $$$ to burn and want to help fuel the revolution. But by the time there's enough content available to warrant picking one up, there will be better performing and cheaper alternatives on the market. A cheap 1080p light canon placeholder would be my recommendation for the next couple years.

Cheers!

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post #11002 of 11372 Old 05-01-2015, 07:18 PM
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Does anyone think the Optoma HD91+ will be any better than the previous iterations? The only real differences I see are that it has 1500 lumens and 600,000:1 full on/off contrast. So quite a bit brighter than the last two which should account for the increase in on/off contrast.

I just like the fact that they use individual RGB LEDs instead of all these other manufacturers using a single LED hitting a phosphor and splitting the beam and hitting a color wheel. Just seems like it would be a lot more efficient.

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post #11003 of 11372 Old 05-01-2015, 07:18 PM
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You could just get a cheaper secondary projector for sports, gaming, and general lights on viewing such as the Optoma HD141X. It fits the bill well...unless you have to have 4K. It has long lamp life, ~17ms input lag for gaming which is excellent, and 3D. All for $600, can't beat that! The only real downside is placement flexibility.

Personally, it's too early in the game to go 4K unless you just have the $$$ to burn and want to help fuel the revolution. But by the time there's enough content available to warrant picking one up, there will be better performing and cheaper alternatives on the market. A cheap 1080p light canon placeholder would be my recommendation for the next couple years.

Cheers!
Yea I considered that, but I really only have space for a single PJ. I could make room for another, but I am really looking for an all-in-one that doesn't require switching and such. The 55es is the economical consideration, but the 350/600 piqued my interest from an upscaling standpoint. I have really been enjoying the e-shift that the 4910 offers.

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post #11004 of 11372 Old 05-01-2015, 07:36 PM
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Yea I considered that, but I really only have space for a single PJ. I could make room for another, but I am really looking for an all-in-one that doesn't require switching and such. The 55es is the economical consideration, but the 350/600 piqued my interest from an upscaling standpoint. I have really been enjoying the e-shift that the 4910 offers.
Yeah, I feel your pain. Unfortunately, we're at a difficult decision making point in time for display tech. We're on the cusp of 4K, HDR, new standards being written and constantly updated, etc...

It's a gamble. Do I get something nice now, or a placeholder for a couple years? Trust me, I'm in the same boat. I want a brighter projector for daytime/lights on viewing that has low input lag for gaming, but I don't want to sacrifice the black levels and contrast that my JVC has. I sold my Sony HW55ES just for that reason alone. It was great for gaming, but to me dark room viewing was terrible. The black levels quite frankly sucked on it and that ruined the whole experience for me, being able to see that grey box with borders on the wall in dark scenes. It was nice for gaming though (~35ms lag). But still wasn't bright enough for daytime/lights on viewing. Calibrated, the Sony HW55ES only has ~200 more lumens than the new JVCs. You really need 2000+ lumens and/or a screen with a lot of gain for dealing with indirect ambient light if you want to get a good image with saturated colors.

So yeah, there really isn't one projector/screen combo on the market that does everything we want right now.

As astronaut theorists would say, hopefully JVC will hear our cries and release the unicorn we've all been chasing within the next couple years. Pun intended!

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post #11005 of 11372 Old 05-01-2015, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hatcher View Post
Yeah, I feel your pain. Unfortunately, we're at a difficult decision making point in time for display tech. We're on the cusp of 4K, HDR, new standards being written and constantly updated, etc...

It's a gamble. Do I get something nice now, or a placeholder for a couple years? Trust me, I'm in the same boat. I want a brighter projector for daytime/lights on viewing that has low input lag for gaming, but I don't want to sacrifice the black levels and contrast that my JVC has. I sold my Sony HW55ES just for that reason alone. It was great for gaming, but to me dark room viewing was terrible. The black levels quite frankly sucked on it and that ruined the whole experience for me, being able to see that grey box with borders on the wall in dark scenes. It was nice for gaming though (~35ms lag). But still wasn't bright enough for daytime/lights on viewing. Calibrated, the Sony HW55ES only has ~200 more lumens than the new JVCs. You really need 2000+ lumens and/or a screen with a lot of gain for dealing with indirect ambient light if you want to get a good image with saturated colors.

So yeah, there really isn't one projector/screen combo on the market that does everything we want right now.

As astronaut theorists would say, hopefully JVC will hear our cries and release the unicorn we've all been chasing within the next couple years. Pun intended!
Your thoughts are basically all that is running through my mind at this point. Honestly i spend 99% of my time obsessing over the audio standpoint of HT reproduction. It is where I am capable of discerning the minute details on any given movie or music track and constantly strive to improve the experience. I have to admit, I have never once calibrated a single PJ I have owned, nor have I really been that discerning over the pic quality of the "Out of the box" presets. I know this is blasphemous in this particular thread but there just isn't enough time in a day to obsess over both and not make a living doing it . While the blacks on the JVC are unreal, I honestly don't know if I would miss it all that much. I have seen the 55es in action in a friend's space and thought it was a good enough picture for me, but all things considered, a two PJ system would obviously be the best of both worlds, but once again, not really in the cards.

Like most things in my HT space, nothing lasts much longer than a year, so an "Interim" replacement doesn't make me feel too bad I guess......Everything is essentially interim in my room, haha.

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post #11006 of 11372 Old 05-01-2015, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Your thoughts are basically all that is running through my mind at this point. Honestly i spend 99% of my time obsessing over the audio standpoint of HT reproduction. It is where I am capable of discerning the minute details on any given movie or music track and constantly strive to improve the experience. I have to admit, I have never once calibrated a single PJ I have owned, nor have I really been that discerning over the pic quality of the "Out of the box" presets. I know this is blasphemous in this particular thread but there just isn't enough time in a day to obsess over both and not make a living doing it . While the blacks on the JVC are unreal, I honestly don't know if I would miss it all that much. I have seen the 55es in action in a friend's space and thought it was a good enough picture for me, but all things considered, a two PJ system would obviously be the best of both worlds, but once again, not really in the cards.

Like most things in my HT space, nothing lasts much longer than a year, so an "Interim" replacement doesn't make me feel too bad I guess......Everything is essentially interim in my room, haha.
Well even though you liked the picture the Sony 55ES threw on the screen, like I said, the brightness advantage over your JVC is minimal so I would not recommend going that route if you value lights on viewing for game days...unless you get a high gain ALR screen. Then it could work quite well.

Digital Projection makes some nice bright projectors. But I doubt there's any real data on them in regards to input lag for gaming.

Good luck on your quest, I know it's a difficult one. But if you're upgrading every year anyways, then just get whatever caters to the most important aspect of watching TV for you (gaming, 2D lights off, 2D lights on, 3D, etc...). 2D lights off with superb black levels and contrast was the most important aspect for me, so I had no choice but JVC. But I do have a DNP Supernova 2.3 gain screen that does look pretty good with the projector in high lamp with some ambient light in the room, but it could always be better.

Gaming is tough due to the lag, but I still do good, and it's more challenging. I feel like once I get a projector with really low input lag I'm going to be so good that it will get boring, LOL! Currently, I feel like a boss when I finish in first place because I know I'm probably playing on a display with the worst input lag out of everyone else that was playing.

But again, good luck and be sure to let us know what route you take.

Respectfully,
Mr. Hatcher

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post #11007 of 11372 Old 05-01-2015, 09:31 PM
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If you ask for a head to head comparison, as opposed to a general opinion, search for a post from Craig Peer I believe where they did compare the 600 with and w/o DI and the difference with real world material was - read it yourself. I do not feel paying 35% more in my case is worth the difference, but then I am of those who considers on/off as one of many picture qualities...
Craig did not do a head to head with the 350 and the 600. Craig told people that if they wanted to see what the 350 looked like, he could turn the dynamic iris off on his 600.

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post #11008 of 11372 Old 05-02-2015, 03:46 AM
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The only real difference between the 350 and 600 is the iris, so the later will be a little more convincing in low APL scenes.

Do you need this much light output in your setup?



And the memory presets - so if he have or going to have a cinemascope sceen or play with different aspect ratio´s a lot , only the 600 will do.


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post #11009 of 11372 Old 05-02-2015, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
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And the memory presets - so if he have or going to have a cinemascope sceen or play with different aspect ratio´s a lot , only the 600 will do.

dj
good reminder, between the iris and the zoom, you can see why some folks were upset at taking these features away from the VW500/600 to create this model. Ideally they would have just lowered the price of the 500/600 in preparation to compete with the next model year projectors.

Sony has the 4K and the brightness advantage vs. the JVC but even the entry model X35/RS46 is more convincing in low APL scenes.

If JVC can do 4K, brighter at around 1200-1300 D65 lumens and keep their native contrast, that is going to be a heck of a projector war in the fall. Sony needs to work on improving the native contrast in the next generation of their projectors.
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post #11010 of 11372 Old 05-02-2015, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
good reminder, between the iris and the zoom, you can see why some folks were upset at taking these features away from the VW500/600 to create this model. Ideally they would have just lowered the price of the 500/600 in preparation to compete with the next model year projectors.

Sony has the 4K and the brightness advantage vs. the JVC but even the entry model X35/RS46 is more convincing in low APL scenes.

If JVC can do 4K, brighter at around 1200-1300 D65 lumens and keep their native contrast, that is going to be a heck of a projector war in the fall. Sony needs to work on improving the native contrast in the next generation of their projectors.

I agree
( and dust-proof the 1000/1100 design, especially if they will make a "1200" on the same chassie ).


And if Epson maybe increase the lumens a Little more too , and get native 4K + CFI ( I like that ) and keep the laser and native CR, they too will have a "Winner" IMO - but I think that will probely not happen before next year , but good if we could get three brands to choose from




JVC should get HDCP 2.2 and ad least DCI expanded colorspace too ! ( and lower input lag ? not that I care about that - not a gamer and has a delay in the pre-amp, for up to about 300ms, that covers allmost every projector for now, even the Epson )


dj




BTW. Z10K - didnt you recieve my PM ?

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