Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 368 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #11011 of 11027 Old Yesterday, 01:47 PM
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I don't know if Sony will continue the high end 1000/1100ES line and make a "1200ES". The $10000+ price home theater projector market is insanely niche and considering within the next year or two will bring many cheaper true UHD/4K projectors I don't know how much longer Sony can sustain selling a projector this expensive and have it remain profitable. They would have to make some serious improvements in on/off contrast, image processing (4K CFI as an example) and a high lumen output laser module to get people to bite at a projector this high in price when there'll be so much native 4K competition at drastically lower prices. Most consumers are not like us and deem the relatively small increase in overall subjective performance to not be worth the extra money. You saw this last round with 1080p projectors. It's the reason Marantz left the DLP market. They couldn't sell enough product to justify staying in the home theater projector market even though their single chip DLPs were by far and large a step above everything out at the time in many of the same areas this Sony is excellent in; lens quality, ANSI contrast, high quality video processing, incredible build quality, and high subjective image fidelity. Personally speaking, I'll be surprised if Sony comes out with an upgraded 1100ES. I think a smart move for them, financially, would be getting a head start in the sub $10000 home theater projector market. And they'll need something like the 350ES but with a dynamic iris to be competitive. They could down grade lens quality, lower lumen output, and create a lite version of their current video processor (remove the goddamn analog video inputs already!). There are plenty of ways to reduce cost to make a projector profitable in the sub $10000 market place.

With that said, I'm actually quite enjoying the Sony 1000ES right now. Though the X500 has a clear advantage with low APL scenes I may only end up keeping my X500 until I get my upgraded unit back. I can only see the X500 losing it's value considerably once a true 4K unit comes out this fall (along with most other 1080p units). I do plan on picking up a JVC UHD/4K projector if one is announced at CEDIA, but I'll be extremely disappointed if JVC doesn't deliver a few upgrades where the current JVCs need it the most. They NEED to boost ANSI contrast to at least where the 600ES is, they NEED to give us at least 300 more lumens of light output and I'd personally like to see their new 4K DiLA chip do better with motion. Right now the 1000ES I have is clearly better in all three of these areas and with everything but the darkest of scenes the 1000ES has a definite advantage in picture quality. Now that I've spent 4 days with the 1000ES (I've put about 16 hours on the unit so far ) it's clear to me why so many people love this projector. The only area where I feel the image is lacking is in it's absolute native black level. And the only major complaint I have with it's feature set is that you can't enable the dynamic iris (or even the manual iris) with 3D content.
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post #11012 of 11027 Old Yesterday, 01:50 PM
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Exactly! I don't think it would be a smart business move to release a full lineup of 4K only projectors this year...especially in such a niche market.
One thing to remember though, is JVCs entire lineup (except when the kept the previous years model as the entry model) are essentially the same machine. They're the same chassis, same chips, lamps, optics, light engine*. Very, very little changes, design wise, as you go up the line:
RS49 -> RS57: Gains you dual irises and some software features enabled
RS57 -> RS67: Gains you hand picked parts, but no functional/feature differences.

Given this, while there is sound logic that JVC will only release 2160p panels in a high end machine, it wouldn't be that surprising if they had their entire lineup switched over to some new architecture.

I mean if they have high enough yields on their 2160p panels to supply their whole line, and assuming laser light sources are not that expensive (Epson's got Laser light source in the ballpark of the 4910 this year), why wouldn't they just switch their whole lineup over and use economies of scale like they've used with lenses for years? I mean the 4910 is a far better projector than it should be for it's price, because it's basically their top end projector with a few small tweaks.

And just think of the sales if next year's RS49 equivalent is 2160p native at a similar price point. AVS will have to double their sales staff to handle it

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #11013 of 11027 Old Yesterday, 03:35 PM
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I'll be extremely disappointed if JVC doesn't deliver a few upgrades where the current JVCs need it the most. They NEED to boost ANSI contrast to at least where the 600ES is,
I thought it had been pretty well established here that there is no use raising any hopes on the JVCs improving ANSI to any significant degree. With LCoS (as I understand it) you can go either the Sony way with it and increase ANSI a bit while necessarily giving up some native contrast, or you can go the JVC way of D-ILA in which you get higher native contrast, but with pretty much hard limits on ANSI, which is why ANSI pretty much hasn't changed year after year in the JVC projectors. Apparently it's just a technical issue you can't get around, inherent to LCoS (at least the D-ILA version).

I don't know if JVC switching to laser sources could raise ANSI (I hope), but I *think* the limitations remain so long as they are using D-ILA. That's the gist of things I've put together reading discussions of the subject here over the years.
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post #11014 of 11027 Old Yesterday, 03:42 PM
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I thought it had been pretty well established here that there is no use raising any hopes on the JVCs improving ANSI to any significant degree. With LCoS (as I understand it) you can go either the Sony way with it and increase ANSI a bit while necessarily giving up some native contrast, or you can go the JVC way of D-ILA in which you get higher native contrast, but with pretty much hard limits on ANSI, which is why ANSI pretty much hasn't changed year after year in the JVC projectors. Apparently it's just a technical issue you can't get around, inherent to LCoS (at least the D-ILA version).

I don't know if JVC switching to laser sources could raise ANSI (I hope), but I *think* the limitations remain so long as they are using D-ILA. That's the gist of things I've put together reading discussions of the subject here over the years.
You're thinking of motion and on/off contrast. The two (motion/response times of the panel and potential on/off contrast) are highly effected by the thickness of the LCoS/LCD panel. The thicker you go, the higher potential on/off contrast, and the thinner you go, the better the response time of the panel. JVC and Sony try and find a happy median. You do have some light path optimizations to use to help on/off if you choose a thinner panel though. Higher quality wire grid polarizers will help raise on/off. I suspect this is what JVC has been doing with each new generation of DiLA panel they come out with. A few times they've claimed better motion/less smearing and better 3D performance. So when they did this they upgraded the wire grid polarizes (which was also indicated in their marketing sheets) and made more light path optimizations, manufactured flatter DiLA panels and most recently they increased pixel fill to increase on/off contrast.

ANSI contrast isn't dependent of the panel thickness and has more to do with the light engine itself (how well it picks up or how little stray/scattered light it produces) and the quality of the optics and the quality of the coatings on the optics. As seen with the Sony 4K units (and the Mitsubishi HC9000D and HC5) you can most definitely have high on/off 20000:1+ and high ANSI contrast 450:1+. It all comes down to design and the quality of the components you put in.

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post #11015 of 11027 Old Yesterday, 06:00 PM
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One thing to remember though, is JVCs entire lineup (except when the kept the previous years model as the entry model) are essentially the same machine. They're the same chassis, same chips, lamps, optics, light engine*. Very, very little changes, design wise, as you go up the line:
RS49 -> RS57: Gains you dual irises and some software features enabled
RS57 -> RS67: Gains you hand picked parts, but no functional/feature differences.

Given this, while there is sound logic that JVC will only release 2160p panels in a high end machine, it wouldn't be that surprising if they had their entire lineup switched over to some new architecture.

I mean if they have high enough yields on their 2160p panels to supply their whole line, and assuming laser light sources are not that expensive (Epson's got Laser light source in the ballpark of the 4910 this year), why wouldn't they just switch their whole lineup over and use economies of scale like they've used with lenses for years? I mean the 4910 is a far better projector than it should be for it's price, because it's basically their top end projector with a few small tweaks.

And just think of the sales if next year's RS49 equivalent is 2160p native at a similar price point. AVS will have to double their sales staff to handle it
I'm sure they will have an under $10K 4K projector. The problem is everyone is expecting them to out perform the 1000/1100es in every category and that will not come cheap. I hope they just keep there game plan the same and just add 4k panels. A X500 that is native 4K, should be under $10k. Things have to be cheaper to make by now also. I'm sure Sony will have an ungraded 600es and 1100es, so even if jvc doesn't satisfy everyone, Sony will
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post #11016 of 11027 Old Yesterday, 06:06 PM
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If all they have is the same projector except with native UHD panels I'll be very disappointed. I don't think this will be enough of an upgrade to purchase a unit like this over an X500 especially if the cost goes up dramatically. They'll need to offer more than just this to get my money. They need P3 color support and HDCP 2.2 as well, plus a few performance upgrades if they want to take away some sales from Sony.
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post #11017 of 11027 Old Yesterday, 09:16 PM - Thread Starter
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There are some good bargains on ebay once in a while

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JVC-DLA-X35B...-/181732825106

this fellow was trying to use the JVC in a room full of ambient light, relatively low hours.

members in the under 3K forum are often asking about the latest Budget Epson model, Optoma, BenQ, etc. For not much more, they can have the majority of what the current JVC's offer in overall PQ for a low price.

It's a shame they discontinued this model, it could have carried another year and competed directly in price with the HW55 and Epson 5030.
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post #11018 of 11027 Old Yesterday, 09:28 PM
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@zombie10k Hi there - what Philips HUE lights are you using to light up your screen for room lighting effects? What are the brightest HUE bulbs? I want to do all HUE in my room but having trouble understanding how this can be accomplished when their brightest lights I think are only 65w equivalents with 630 lumens...?
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post #11019 of 11027 Old Today, 07:41 AM - Thread Starter
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If anyone enjoys the various Imax 3D documentaries, I recommend checking out Island of Lemurs - Madagascar 3D BD.

http://www.amazon.com/Island-Lemurs-.../dp/B00TFSYSN8

https://www.imax.com/movies/m/island...rs-madagascar/

I watched this last night, it's only 40 minutes but definitely worth seeing. Narrated by Morgan Freeman, there is some great 3D in this documentary.

I like the opening IMAX opening sequence - right in your face, you know you're in for a 3D treat.

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post #11020 of 11027 Old Today, 08:00 AM
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What is the best projector that last for 5 years?
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post #11021 of 11027 Old Today, 08:08 AM
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What is the best projector that last for 5 years?
The only projector that's out right now that is UHD blu-ray ready (which is what we'll be getting over the next five years) is the Sony VPL-VW1100ES. That's the only projector out right now that offers native 4K resolution, P3 color gamut support, panels that are at least 10bit (the panels are actually 12bit), and has an HDMI 2.0 port with HDCP 2.2.

You'll need to wait until CEDIA this fall to see what else is annouced that will be future proof for the next five years. My guess is we'll see 2 or 3 models with a similar feature set that the 1100ES has. One from JVC, one from Epson, and possibly another model from Sony or a very very high end 4K DLP projector from DP or Sim2.
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post #11022 of 11027 Old Today, 09:00 AM
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If all they have is the same projector except with native UHD panels I'll be very disappointed. I don't think this will be enough of an upgrade to purchase a unit like this over an X500 especially if the cost goes up dramatically. They'll need to offer more than just this to get my money. They need P3 color support and HDCP 2.2 as well, plus a few performance upgrades if they want to take away some sales from Sony.
If sure it should have P3 and HDCP 2.2. But I'll be all for that one for the right price. With the street prices, they are very affordable. Even the $12K JVC is much less at street price.
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post #11023 of 11027 Old Today, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Any projector can technically last 5 years.. He didn't say future proof.

even when UHD BD hits, I bet it will be years before we see a decent catalog. Look how long it took for regular BD to become pervasive vs. DVD. People still rent and buy DVD's today with no thought for higher quality 1080P BD's. Plenty of people today are watching streaming content on their tablets vs. watching it on a 'large' TV, I hear this all the time in a very large and diverse workplace.

Unless one has Verizon FIOS, most folks aren't seeing the best that broadcast TV can offer. Those that are seeking higher quality content is relatively niche and won't become widespread until 4K TV's, Projectors and the media itself is plentiful and as affordable as today's DVD's and BD's.

I'm not saying 4K BD will go the way of laserdisc since the costs will inevitably come down, but it's going to take longer than most here would likely want.

There is still some life left in BD. If a studio takes care to capture the content correctly and post process under a watchful eye, you can end up with remarkable quality as seen in Oblivion and Skyfall.

As Mark stated in another thread, is our viewing experience going to be fundamentally changed because a stop sign or school bus is 'more believable' to real life colors if P3 becomes standardized. Compared to what we had 10 years ago, I am thrilled with the display technology we have today.
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post #11024 of 11027 Old Today, 09:29 AM
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Any projector can technically last 5 years.. He didn't say future proof.
Then I suppose the question really is "what's the best projector?". Haha
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post #11025 of 11027 Old Today, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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it's a loaded question..

The best projector.... for which specific content might be a better topic. Last night I watched that Imax 3D documentary so the Sharp 30K is a no brainer for me on that particular disk. Dark sci-fi, probably still running for the JVC. Overall great PQ, Sony VW1100 and even the DC4 Planar which can still hold it's own with most content. Long TV marathons, the inexpensive LG PF1500.. use it like it's stolen. I had this running the other day for 12+ hours and it was barely warm to the touch - all the while sipping a low 70 watts of energy.

one of these days I hope we get the holy grail of projectors in 1 model.
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post #11026 of 11027 Old Today, 09:53 AM
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I'll have a very similar setup soon. I'm getting the upgrade through Mike sometime in the next week or two for the 1000ES. Then I'll have the JVC DLA-X500, Sharp XV-Z17000 for 3D and then a couple nice DLPs like the PD8150 and Marantz VP-15S1. I may end up selling the X500 once I get the upgrade on the 1000ES though. I can only see the X500 going down in price if JVC announces a UHD unit in a few months. Then come CEDIA pick up a new JVC unit. One can never have too many projectors.
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post #11027 of 11027 Old Today, 08:59 PM
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...one of these days I hope we get the holy grail of projectors in 1 model.
The PicoPro laser projector is a long, long way away from being a real contender as a critical home theater projector IMO. But that said, playing with it has given me a glimpse of our future with what a true laser projector (not laser light phosphorous wheel) projector will be able to do - absolutely insane intra-scene contrast. It will be a revolutionary step forward. In the meantime, our current day choices aren't too shabby either.
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