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post #11401 of 11424 Old 08-31-2015, 01:36 PM
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A barely on topic observation from my trip to the LG booth at the CNE (Canadian National Exhibition):

LG had their big 105" superwide 2:35:1 AR curved screen display set up. It was attracting lots of enthusiastic attention. Though
visitors didn't mention noticing it was a wider AR per se, the display seemed to have much more attention-getting impact I think because of it. Everyone was saying it looked like their dream display. Unfortunately it was only showing shots of Hong Kong, no movie content.

But I have to say as a projector owner it sure is hard to be impressed even with a display that size. I'm so used to widescreen images much larger in my home, and of as good or better image quality. Throw in the $130,000 CAD price tag and it sort of became chuckle-worthy. Fun to see, though.

Maybe if one day if OLED gets even bigger...
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post #11402 of 11424 Old 08-31-2015, 02:38 PM - Thread Starter
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LG seems focused these days on OLED so hopefully that benefits us in the future. I saw some pricing on the 55" and 65" 4K displays, it's just too expensive for me for such small screens.

The screen size dictates if you have a media room or a home theater.
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post #11403 of 11424 Old 08-31-2015, 02:49 PM
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post #11404 of 11424 Old 08-31-2015, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
A barely on topic observation from my trip to the LG booth at the CNE (Canadian National Exhibition):

LG had their big 105" superwide 2:35:1 AR curved screen display set up. It was attracting lots of enthusiastic attention. Though
visitors didn't mention noticing it was a wider AR per se, the display seemed to have much more attention-getting impact I think because of it. Everyone was saying it looked like their dream display. Unfortunately it was only showing shots of Hong Kong, no movie content.

But I have to say as a projector owner it sure is hard to be impressed even with a display that size. I'm so used to widescreen images much larger in my home, and of as good or better image quality. Throw in the $130,000 CAD price tag and it sort of became chuckle-worthy. Fun to see, though.

Maybe if one day if OLED gets even bigger...

Just think how big a screen you could have if you had a $ 130,000 projector / screen budget. " You're going to need a bigger house " !!

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post #11405 of 11424 Old 08-31-2015, 06:51 PM
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On a different note, I was at Best Buy Magnolia the other day just casually browsing and a sales guy came up to me and we started talking. We got on the topic of front projection and it was funny how clueless he was. I told him I had a JVC. "Oh, those projectors are really not that bad...," as he implied they were not good either. I didn't bother asking him what he thought was good. I sort of just humored him listening. I told him my scope screen was 9 feet wide and he responded, "Wow, isn't that like a 300" screen?" Funny stuff.
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post #11406 of 11424 Old 08-31-2015, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
On a different note, I was at Best Buy Magnolia the other day just casually browsing and a sales guy came up to me and we started talking. We got on the topic of front projection and it was funny how clueless he was. I told him I had a JVC. "Oh, those projectors are really not that bad...," as he implied they were not good either. I didn't bother asking him what he thought was good. I sort of just humored him listening. I told him my scope screen was 9 feet wide and he responded, "Wow, isn't that like a 300" screen?" Funny stuff.

Fact is most mortals have no idea just how good we have it. So many times I go to a dinner party of family event and they are bragging about there "massive" 65in LED. I can't imagine there are too many homes that can top a fully velveted room with a JVC or 4k Sony. Or even the avg projector setup for that matter, size means alot and the image quality of projectors is there as well.
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post #11407 of 11424 Old 08-31-2015, 07:54 PM
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I was watching Mission Impossible Ghost Protocol on my JVC RS57 last night and I started really noticing the DI. In some scenes with shots changing from dimmer to brighter shots, it looked really bad because it would take a while for the picture to dim down for a dark shot, then a while for it to swing back brighter for a bright shot. It was quite intrusive and I started wondering if my DI was starting to malfunction or something since I never notice it like this.

But then I realised I'd had the IRIS open all the way up because I was using a large image size and the bulb had enough time on it to be somewhat more dim, hence opening up the iris. And I remembered that if you have the iris set in the upper limits close to wide open, the
DI has wider swings to attempt and becomes more obvious. So I presume this is what was happening.

It made me realise that would be another benefit to the purportedly higher light output of the new JVCs coming out (again, if the rumors are true). Having some more horsepower for a bright image but at an iris setting that won't freak out the DI.

Last edited by R Harkness; 09-01-2015 at 06:33 AM. Reason: Mixed up the name of the mission impossible movie we had watched, which was actually Ghost Protocol
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post #11408 of 11424 Old 08-31-2015, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
I was watching Mission Impossible Rogue Nation on my JVC RS57 last night and I started really noticing the DI. In some scenes with shots changing from dimmer to brighter shots, it looked really bad because it would take a while for the picture to dim down for a dark shot, then a while for it to swing back brighter for a bright shot. It was quite intrusive and I started wondering if my DI was starting to malfunction or something since I never notice it like this.

But then I realised I'd had the IRIS open all the way up because I was using a large image size and the bulb had enough time on it to be somewhat more dim, hence opening up the iris. And I remembered that if you have the iris set in the upper limits close to wide open, the
DI has wider swings to attempt and becomes more obvious. So I presume this is what was happening.

It made me realise that would be another benefit to the purportedly higher light output of the new JVCs coming out (again, if the rumors are true). Having some more horsepower for a bright image but at an iris setting that won't freak out the DI.

This makes sense, I run my X500 with the iris wide open and find the DI can be really busy at times.

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post #11409 of 11424 Old 08-31-2015, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
It made me realise that would be another benefit to the purportedly higher light output of the new JVCs coming out (again, if the rumors are true). Having some more horsepower for a bright image but at an iris setting that won't freak out the DI.
You may recall that at last year's CEDIA the design of the DI for the new JVC projectors was such that if somebody enabled the DI the iris would go to full open to white. Some of us asked for the ability to pick the most open position whether using the iris in static mode or dynamic mode and were told that it was just too late for dynamic mode. I decided to still try to explain why this mattered so at the very least it would be considered for the future.

I ended up being impressed that JVC seemed to listen to some of us and got this feature in before release.

Now it would be nice if this year they added an option to pick the most closed position. Maybe those who are most sensitive to DI artifacts could find a good compromise, like a 3x-5x multiplier from static on/off CR to dynamic on/off CR and those who want a bigger range could choose that (or a person could choose based on material or mood).

I hope they improve the DI algorithms, but either way some kind of control for how closed to the iris goes would be a nice feature even if it just had a few choices.

--Darin

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post #11410 of 11424 Old 08-31-2015, 10:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I was trying to break the RS57 iris in this video - high paced techno concert with rapid APL changes, That iris is moving!

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post #11411 of 11424 Old 09-01-2015, 04:39 AM
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You should make that video with your Planar and compare

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post #11412 of 11424 Old 09-01-2015, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
You may recall that at last year's CEDIA the design of the DI for the new JVC projectors was such that if somebody enabled the DI the iris would go to full open to white. Some of us asked for the ability to pick the most open position whether using the iris in static mode or dynamic mode and were told that it was just too late for dynamic mode. I decided to still try to explain why this mattered so at the very least it would be considered for the future.

I ended up being impressed that JVC seemed to listen to some of us and got this feature in before release.

Now it would be nice if this year they added an option to pick the most closed position. Maybe those who are most sensitive to DI artifacts could find a good compromise, like a 3x-5x multiplier from static on/off CR to dynamic on/off CR and those who want a bigger range could choose that (or a person could choose based on material or mood).

I hope they improve the DI algorithms, but either way some kind of control for how closed to the iris goes would be a nice feature even if it just had a few choices.

--Darin
With JVC's high native contrast, that would be a really good feature. It would boost the contrast and yet make it very hard to tell that a dynamic iris was even being used.

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post #11413 of 11424 Old 09-01-2015, 06:54 AM
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I was trying to break the RS57 iris in this video - high paced techno concert with rapid APL changes, That iris is moving!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnTtqowCn_o
I'd consider Tiesto's earlier work to be more Trance than Techno. I saw him perform live at Tomorrowland in Belgium in July. The choreography of all the lights, lasers, fireworks and bracelet LEDs was astonishingly good. To see it live in person was amazing.


Mind you, there was over 100,000 people at the main stage during his set. It was packed.

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post #11414 of 11424 Old 09-01-2015, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
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in my day it started with house, then techno then the hypnotic trance. sounds like a great concert to see in person.

on a separate note, Mad Max is out today, get your copy!

http://www.amazon.com/Mad-Max-Fury-B...dp/B00XQ141W8/

it looks remarkable on a good 3D DLP. 1 impression part of the filming is the night scenes. They were smart how they did this - everything was a deep blue but still quite bright,. even in 3D mode.

The sound track will shake a house with the right setup. Butt Kickers were working overtime. I liked it more the 2nd time I watched it, big fan of the original series. definitely demo material when guests come over.

There is a forum thread called "Is 3D dead yet" - apparently it isn't. they keep coming out with these great looking 3D movies that at least some of us are enjoying in our HT setup. I get that genpop didn't embrace it in the home, but I also don't see genpop with 7.1 setups or Atmos. All future Marvel movies will be in 3D, still plenty of Animations to come, Avatar 2, Pacific Rim, etc. still some things in 3D to look forward to. 2009-2016+, not a bad run for 3D considered how short lived it was in the 50's and 80's./
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post #11415 of 11424 Old 09-01-2015, 10:49 AM
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I'm definitely going to check it out on the Z17K. Then on the 1100ES. Just curious is there's a huge difference in performance between the two when it comes to 3D.
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post #11416 of 11424 Old 09-01-2015, 01:36 PM
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There is a forum thread called "Is 3D dead yet" - apparently it isn't. they keep coming out with these great looking 3D movies that at least some of us are enjoying in our HT setup. I get that genpop didn't embrace it in the home, but I also don't see genpop with 7.1 setups or Atmos. All future Marvel movies will be in 3D, still plenty of Animations to come, Avatar 2, Pacific Rim, etc. still some things in 3D to look forward to. 2009-2016+, not a bad run for 3D considered how short lived it was in the 50's and 80's./
VR is coming and it's all about 3D. 3D is just getting started -- Why? Because when you finally get to see it the way it was meant to be seen you realize there's no going back. To quote Jack Nicholson -- "You want real? You can't handle real (Or something like that )."
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post #11417 of 11424 Old Yesterday, 04:53 AM
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So this is largely an academic exercise at this point (I have basically no budget for a projector now), but those of you who have seen a lot of projectors, especially the Planar 8150/Runco LS5, what would you say is the current "equivalent"? Now let me clarify, I don't mean projector that looks the same (that's obviously the LS5). I mean, the LS5 when it came out, was probably the most well rounded projector available. It could compete with the JVCs (RS1) on contrast, had average to above average brightness, low lag, great video processing, natural image, etc. Basically it didn't do anything wrong, heck IMO it still doesn't do anything wrong (that's different from, and I'm not saying there aren't areas for improvement).

I suspect the answer is, Sony, the VW350 or VW600? I know Seegs will rag on the VW350's contrast and lack of DI, but looking at Cine4Home's review it's in the ballpark of the RS1, it's got 3-5x the native contrast of my trusty Planar.

Maybe I need to start saving my pennies for the VW320 (VW370 here?).

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post #11418 of 11424 Old Yesterday, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
So this is largely an academic exercise at this point (I have basically no budget for a projector now), but those of you who have seen a lot of projectors, especially the Planar 8150/Runco LS5, what would you say is the current "equivalent"? Now let me clarify, I don't mean projector that looks the same (that's obviously the LS5). I mean, the LS5 when it came out, was probably the most well rounded projector available. It could compete with the JVCs (RS1) on contrast, had average to above average brightness, low lag, great video processing, natural image, etc. Basically it didn't do anything wrong, heck IMO it still doesn't do anything wrong (that's different from, and I'm not saying there aren't areas for improvement).

I suspect the answer is, Sony, the VW350 or VW600? I know Seegs will rag on the VW350's contrast and lack of DI, but looking at Cine4Home's review it's in the ballpark of the RS1, it's got 3-5x the native contrast of my trusty Planar.

Maybe I need to start saving my pennies for the VW320 (VW370 here?).
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post #11419 of 11424 Old Yesterday, 06:46 AM
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Unfortunately $15k ain't gonna happen, even $8k for a VW350 isn't happening any time soon. My immediate projector budget is maybe $1k plus whatever I could sell an RS4910 and Planar 8150 (for parts) for.

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post #11420 of 11424 Old Yesterday, 07:31 AM
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So this is largely an academic exercise at this point (I have basically no budget for a projector now), but those of you who have seen a lot of projectors, especially the Planar 8150/Runco LS5, what would you say is the current "equivalent"? Now let me clarify, I don't mean projector that looks the same (that's obviously the LS5). I mean, the LS5 when it came out, was probably the most well rounded projector available. It could compete with the JVCs (RS1) on contrast, had average to above average brightness, low lag, great video processing, natural image, etc. Basically it didn't do anything wrong, heck IMO it still doesn't do anything wrong (that's different from, and I'm not saying there aren't areas for improvement).

I suspect the answer is, Sony, the VW350 or VW600? I know Seegs will rag on the VW350's contrast and lack of DI, but looking at Cine4Home's review it's in the ballpark of the RS1, it's got 3-5x the native contrast of my trusty Planar.

Maybe I need to start saving my pennies for the VW320 (VW370 here?).

The 350ES is probably the closest in image quality to the PD8150. Though it is brighter so it may have an edge. I haven't directly compared them side by side so I'm really just going off of numbers and from what I've seen from the 600ES when I demo'ed it. But then again, it does cost quite a bit more and is above your budget. The PD8150 will still have the advantage with motion and have a more classic "DLP" look. It's very surprising to see that the PD8150 is still competitive in image quality considering how old the unit is.


And I'll just throw it out there. I do have one for sale with a DC4 DMD. So if you're looking to keep the same image, let me know. I had someone in France set on buying it but I haven't heard from him in a few days so as far as I'm concerned it's up for grabs again.
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post #11421 of 11424 Old Yesterday, 07:44 AM
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That thought had crossed my mind, but even though $2k is a good price IMO for what it is, I'm not sure I can swing that now. I've still got to call RVI about my Planar but I'm assuming they're going to tell me ~$1k minimum. I'm just not sure that makes sense, though I suppose that's still roughly the cost of a cheapo DLP and the result is way better.

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post #11422 of 11424 Old Yesterday, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
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If the company that Planar recommends for repairs will fix it for $900, I would still consider this option since none of the budget replacements are going to match it's 2D PQ.

considering how well calibrated this projector is out of the box, there must not have been much to do back in the day of it's popularity other than to plug it in and enjoy it. It took some of the other manufacturers years to catch up to this, the RS46 is the first imo from JVC that did this well without needing a major cal.
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post #11423 of 11424 Old Yesterday, 01:35 PM
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If the company that Planar recommends for repairs will fix it for $900, I would still consider this option since none of the budget replacements are going to match it's 2D PQ.
Yeah, that's kind of what I'm thinking. Though the question is, do I tear it apart first to see if I can find something obvious with the PSU or just send it. For a while my brain was locked in this "$900, that's crazy money for a repair, I can get a brand new projector for less than that". But as you say, there's really nothing under $2k that can match it. And I'm not that interested in 3D that that's a factor (a W1070 would get me 3D).

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considering how well calibrated this projector is out of the box, there must not have been much to do back in the day of it's popularity other than to plug it in and enjoy it. It took some of the other manufacturers years to catch up to this, the RS46 is the first imo from JVC that did this well without needing a major cal.
All the DLPs I've had have been remarkably stable, calibration wise. Though Planar did do a great job dialing it in at the factory, you can tell they individually calibrated them all. It must be something with the degradation/change of liquid crystal panels that causes them to need more maintenance. Makes sense if you think about it, the odds of 3 panels degrading, changing at the same rate in the same way is probably tiny. Though that doesn't really explain why so many were so far off out of the box, other than other companies just don't calibrate each machine off the line.

DLP in comparison has an array of mirrors, nothing to degrade there until the point of total failure of a pixel. And the colorwheel just spins so it gets a relatively constant amount of wear, though the spinning probably helps mitigate that since no color is in the light/heat all the time.

Here's hoping DLP will make a comeback. I'm not like some of you, I don't need it to have cutting edge contrast, if they can just get competitive again, on both contrast and price, that will be great.

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[B]so I wanted to take a closer look at some iris torture scenes now that Manni pointed out the 29:00 marker in the original spiderman.

Taking a look at Oblivion starting at the 54:00 timeline. This is when he is captured and interrogated by Morgan Freeman's character. For illustration, these are BD screen grabs, not screenshots of either projector.

Let start with this.. Auto iris 1 *will* crush the details in this scene, there is little you can do about it with the built in settings. Auto iris 2 is much better and you can clearly see his faintly lit hand. iris position is identical in both iris modes, this is obliviously a difference in the dynamic gamma setting



I know some of us like to use this scene for checking out DIs and can also be used to look for shadow detail differences. However, it can be hard to know exactly how much shadow detail we are supposed to see, but I read something interesting from somebody who worked on Oblivion. This was about the announced Panasonic OLED TV.

https://www.avforums.com/review/pana...d-review.11860

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Mike Sowa (pictured above with the CZ950) who is best known for his work on films such as Oblivion and Insurgent, has been drafted in to help tune the CZ950 to the industry standards for Rec.709 (and 90% of DCI) playback and especially for the capabilities of High Dynamic Range (HDR) material.
...
The final side-by-side had us looking at an image area I feel too many people misunderstand and that is shadow detail and what you should be able to see in a given scene. Sowa highlighted this with Morgan Freeman’s introduction in Oblivion, where he lights a cigar and then his face disappears into the darkness. You should just make out the very left edge of his face and his eyes. Everything else should be in complete black.

The LG was showing too much of this scene where we could actually see the back wall behind Freeman. Just because that data might be in the image when mastered and brought out with incorrect gamma or panel brightness, it doesn’t mean you are supposed to see that detail.
It would be interesting to know the light levels for the steps near black in the case Mike felt was correct vs incorrect and whether the right settings for Oblivion would be the wrong settings for some different material. Coming out of black too fast can be a problem, but I lean toward believing that if the background was supposed to be as black as the display could do from the Blu-ray disk then the person encoding it should have checked the levels and made sure it was encoded at level 16 or extremely close (like some dithered 16s and 17s).

I wonder if anybody knows how the background is encoded in the first shots with Morgan Freeman lighting up in the dark.

Thanks,
Darin

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