Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 397 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 10-21-2015, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
Do you mean because there are ways to reduce how bright the images are (like with a screen) or just because your personal taste is for brighter images.

I've told the story about the Pioneer plasma engineer who said part of the team had always been told to make the displays brighter, but nobody ever told them to stop. This engineer told me that he walked into a meeting, put a big piece of neutral density material over the front of a display and said, "Now, doesn't that look better." He said they agreed.

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Somewhat tongue in cheek...but I do actually mean both.

I like having the option of a closed iris for blacker blacks, or an ND filter that can be tuned as the bulb ages, or a larger screen. And I also think a traditionally "cinematic" image (35mm @ 15ftL, let's say) is inferior to a 12' wide plasma/OLED screen -- if such a thing existed.

It's true that plasma TVs eventually reached brightness levels that were unreasonable for a light controlled room. But nobody makes plasma anymore, and LCOS projectors are nowhere near that same point in their evolution, yet. Maybe when we can buy 5000 lumens for $5K, that Pioneer story will once again become relevant. Until then, more is more.
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Old 10-21-2015, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Richard Berg View Post
[
Maybe when we can buy 5000 lumens for $5K, that Pioneer story will once again become relevant. Until then, more is more.
For your tastes that is clearly true, For the person you were responding to (based on his description) and some others that is not true for the images themselves and the story is relevant.

--Darin
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Old 10-21-2015, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Richard Berg View Post
And I also think a traditionally "cinematic" image (35mm @ 15ftL, let's say) is inferior to a 12' wide plasma/OLED screen -- if such a thing existed.
To each his own.

I used to own a Panasonic VT60 plasma which was/is a reference quality display on par with the Kuro. I now own a Samsung 51" F5300B plasma today which is excellent.

I think my JVC image is better (taking size out of the equation) and all three were calibrated by Chad B. The film-like, natural image of the JVC and nature of projection gives something to my eyes I don't see with a panel.
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Old 10-21-2015, 01:29 PM
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To be clear, I do prefer the pixel fill and smoothness of LCOS projection over the nearly-artificial sharpness of most other digital display techs. And of course, I prefer 120" screens to 60" screens Just talking about brightness here.

My VT60 is very bright. My previous JVCs were bright too (thanks to undersized screens and/or HP material) -- not as bright as the plasma, but bright enough that their overall effect (including the "natural" texture and raw size) was better for movies.

The new JVCs will exceed both of the above. Yay progress.
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Old 10-21-2015, 01:42 PM
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I still manage to be regularly blown away by how sharp (and smooth) a good projected image can look. I'm often thinking "It just has no right to look this amazing at this size!"

Last edited by R Harkness; 10-21-2015 at 03:07 PM.
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Old 10-21-2015, 03:02 PM
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I'm still manage to be regularly blown away by how sharp (and smooth) a good projected image can look. I'm often thinking "It just has no right to look this amazing at this size!"
I am still surprised just how good front projection can look since getting my set-up done last year - it really surpassed my expectations by a lot.
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Old 10-21-2015, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Where do you have the manual iris set with your current projector? With the newer models, you will be able to close the manual iris down even more and get higher contrast. Or if you are in high lamp, you will be able to go to low lamp, getting longer lasting life out of lamp and quieter room.
when brand spanker 2.5 years ago it was on wide open out of box and found needed to be closed down to -8 for 14-16 fl. with still under 1000 hours on the pj am sitting with iris about half open. so still a bit up the sleeve. never had to run the lamp on anything but on low lamp output setting

be interested to see how the newer HDR pjs are in this regard

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Old 10-21-2015, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
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The blackout project I did over the last 2 years made a huge difference in the overall immersive feeling while watching a movie. It's great to see only the screen and nothing else around it. Better than just about any theater I've been in.



I know everyone is exciting for the new projectors (I am too) but the overall viewing experience is definitely the sum of the parts. I can fire up the 7 year old .95 Planar and it looks remarkable for the majority of content I have.


boy have we come a long way from this!!

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Old 10-21-2015, 04:33 PM
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Around 1980 or so, my parents bought an RCA 50" projection set like the one above. Everyone including the neighbors were just in awe with the size.

Our cats' back claws would scratch the screen over time climbing on top of it!
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Old 10-21-2015, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
The blackout project I did over the last 2 years made a huge difference in the overall immersive feeling while watching a movie. It's great to see only the screen and nothing else around it. Better than just about any theater I've been in.



I know everyone is exciting for the new projectors (I am too) but the overall viewing experience is definitely the sum of the parts. I can fire up the 7 year old .95 Planar and it looks remarkable for the majority of content I have.


boy have we come a long way from this!!

It was well ahead of it's time. I've yet to see a more impressive image from a single chip DLP unit.
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Old 10-21-2015, 04:55 PM
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That looks awesome Zombie! A dream movie-geek room.


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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I know everyone is exciting for the new projectors (I am too) but the overall viewing experience is definitely the sum of the parts. I can fire up the 7 year old .95 Planar and it looks remarkable for the majority of content I have.
Exactly how I feel. Everything I've done in my room has been to enhance the viewing experience as much as possible, which is why I ended up with masking and full room black out quite a while ago.

As I've said before, I would sooner give up my JVC projector for a lesser projector and keep my masking/room design, than the reverse. Before I gave my old first projector to my brother, the Panny AE900, after over a year using it in an untreated room I got to try it in my (almost) finished room with the masking. It was just astonishing how good it looked, how "at the cinema" it now felt. Similarly, I always sell my JVC projectors to my pal and we go to each other's place to watch movies. So I'm always seeing the difference between how they look in a semi-treated room (and no masking) compared to an all-out effort room, and it's almost like seeing a different projector at his place.
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Old 10-21-2015, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by alebonau View Post
when brand spanker 2.5 years ago it was on wide open out of box and found needed to be closed down to -8 for 14-16 fl. with still under 1000 hours on the pj am sitting with iris about half open. so still a bit up the sleeve. never had to run the lamp on anything but on low lamp output setting

be interested to see how the newer HDR pjs are in this regard
You will definitely get higher contrast out of the newer JVC's

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Old 10-21-2015, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
boy have we come a long way from this!!

That was my dream screen for years. Vutec was the only one making them till the middle part of the last decade. I was hoping to mate one to my CRT and achieve DLP level brightness.

Current projector - JVC RS25 and Marantz VP15S1
Future projector - pre-ordered new JVC from AVScience
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Old 10-22-2015, 01:49 AM
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You will definitely get higher contrast out of the newer JVC's
dont know. pretty sure zombie suggested all the subsequent models he's run up against the x35 it still holds up pretty well. unless you mean the just released 5000/7000/9000 series ?

havent seen them to comment

I just know as as you put money down and buy one of these new fake 4K wobulation ones and jvc will just as soon announce a native 4K unit

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Old 10-22-2015, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by alebonau View Post
dont know. pretty sure zombie suggested all the subsequent models he's run up against the x35 it still holds up pretty well. unless you mean the just released 5000/7000/9000 series ?

havent seen them to comment

I just know as as you put money down and buy one of these new fake 4K wobulation ones and jvc will just as soon announce a native 4K unit
Yes the conversation was about the newly announced JVC projectors. Since they are much brighter, you will be closing the iris down more and he will get higher contrast.

Say what you want, but my eyes did not lie to me. What I saw on a 14' wide screen looked very good. Also the JVC RS500/600 will do everything UHD BD will offer (except full resolution) over the next few years, while we wait for true 4K projectors prices to drop. If you are waiting until next year for that true 4K projector at 5k, then I am afraid you will be disappointed.
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Old 10-22-2015, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
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prior to the new 2016 models, the 2012-2015 JVC's were all roughly the same lumen output once calibrated. I generally run the RS46 @ -7 in low lamp but I also have a 2.8HP with the projectors near eye level.

Mike is correct, with a much brighter image it can be clamped down further and should increase the contrast.

I'm looking forward to hearing some info on 3D brightness. Every 3D capable projector drops the lumens in 3D vs. 2D (pre-glasses). With a higher starting brightness in 2D, it should be brighter in 3D than the current models.
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Old 10-22-2015, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I'm looking forward to hearing some info on 3D brightness. Every 3D capable projector drops the lumens in 3D vs. 2D (pre-glasses). With a higher starting brightness in 2D, it should be brighter in 3D than the current models.
Zombie, so you know by what percentage the JVC projectors drop brightness when watching 3D?

I can certainly see the brightness drop subjectively, but I'm not sure what kind of brightness difference numbers between 2D and 3D to put into the Accupel Screen Set Up Calculator. I'm calculating the the brightness differences I'd get with a new JVC projector for 2D and 3D.

Thanks (or thanks to anyone else who can answer the question).
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Old 10-22-2015, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
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it's a little tricky since I may be one of the few that actually calibrates the 3D modes behind the glasses which definitely drops the lumens more so than the default 3D modes.

I recently had an RS6710 here and it was about 900 lumens @ D65 in 2D mode - 17 feet from my 142" 16:9. After the 3D cal, it dropped to ~ 650 to give you some perspective.

If these new JVC's could hit 1000 lumens in 3D mode, that would be excellent.

Unfortunately there is no way to predict this until it's measured. The VW1000 is 1700+ in 2D mode but drops to about 800 in 3D mode so it's not a given that the extra 2D will definitely results in brighter 3D.

Since no one really cares about discussing 3D on the projectors these days, we'll likely have to wait until I can get my hands on one and give it a full 3D cal + measurements. I believe Kris mentioned he would look into this as well once he gets the new JVC's.
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Old 10-22-2015, 10:33 AM - Thread Starter
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it's a bit of a rig, but it definitely works. I haven't seen a 3D projector yet that has 'great' color in 3D. A 3D color cal makes a big different imo.



CA agrees. This was through the glasses on an HW55 I did a while back.

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Old 10-22-2015, 10:39 AM
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That's very helpful Zombie!

I'm sort of a late-comer to 3D, having only started enjoying it on my current RS57 projector. (It was crap on my RS55). Last night I was watching scenes from the new Jurassic World Blu-Ray, both in 2D and 3D and the 3D really added an impressive amount to a number of the scenes. I don't get out to the movies nearly as often as I wish and I'd often choose the 3D for a movie when I do so. Being able to do 3D at home is a thrill for me (and it's too bad it was abandoned in the new UHD Blu-Ray format).

(My calibrator did a 3D calibration and I think it was through the glasses. Still, the color isn't as rich with 3D, that's one of the most obvious differences aside from brightness from the 2D images. At the same time the 3D images remain impressively sharp and I often find the image actually more detailed, in terms of what my brain picks up in the picture, in 3D, due to how details separate and gain not only contrast separation, but spacial separation).

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Old 10-22-2015, 10:46 AM
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Hm, I tried to watch Avengers in 3D last weekend, and ended up giving up a few minutes in, it was just disappointing/annoying. For some reason on my 4910 it just seems to take away more than it adds. Maybe my 4910 just isn't bright enough.
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Old 10-22-2015, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
prior to the new 2016 models, the 2012-2015 JVC's were all roughly the same lumen output once calibrated. I generally run the RS46 @ -7 in low lamp but I also have a 2.8HP with the projectors near eye level.

Mike is correct, with a much brighter image it can be clamped down further and should increase the contrast.

I'm looking forward to hearing some info on 3D brightness. Every 3D capable projector drops the lumens in 3D vs. 2D (pre-glasses). With a higher starting brightness in 2D, it should be brighter in 3D than the current models.
I will most likely be sending you my RS600 for a couple weeks for review.
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Old 10-22-2015, 11:01 AM
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I have to agree with my fellow velvet lovers. The combination of a solid screen fully velvet room and my X500 still blows me away,until I see better it is the best image I have seen by a long shot. My only urge to upgrade comes from the usual just because, well maybe the increased brightness of the JVC units has something to do with it as well. lol But my point is the total sum of my room has created an image that consistently impresses me even a few years and 4000 plus hrs later.
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Old 10-22-2015, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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that's great Mike, thank you! There is so much excitement for the new JVC's, they have clearly been hard at work for the last 2 years.

Rich, good to hear you are enjoying some of the recent 3D titles. if you get a chance, check out San Andreas 3D - very immersive the way they filmed the 3D (lots of POV, over the should shots for impact and depth).

Stanger89 - I know many here have relatively low gain screens, dim 3D vs. it's brighter 2D counterpart has been a topic for a while. I know you would get a kick out of my Sharp 3D DLP on the 2.8HP. It's quite bright even through the glasses. If the new JVC's are brighter in 3D, I think this will be a great benefit for many who may want to re-visit 3D a second time.
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Old 10-22-2015, 11:24 AM
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If I can get myself interested enough in the movie I might check out San Andreas, thanks. (I mostly gave up buying "demo-only" material quite a while ago, so I generally have to want to watch the content to buy it these days).

My calibrator did a higher gamma for my calibrated 3D setting (I think maybe 2.2 for 3D vs the 2.4 I use for 2D). But I find I tend to end up using my 2D calibration with the lower 2.4 gamma even for 3D. The brightness differences is minor, but the perception of image depth and deep black levels improves substantially. I understand that many 3D enthusiasts want the most cross-talk-free projection they can find, and that the JVCs don't provide that. But on the other hand the high native contrast of the JVCs I think is still beneficial in aiding the believably of 3D images as 2D images.
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Old 10-22-2015, 01:00 PM
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If I can get myself interested enough in the movie I might check out San Andreas, thanks. (I mostly gave up buying "demo-only" material quite a while ago, so I generally have to want to watch the content to buy it these days).
San Andreas is worth the purchase alone to see the girl in it, Alexandra Daddario. She is eye candy.

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Old 10-22-2015, 03:04 PM
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Zombie, I'm pretty excited for the new Samsung Gear VR to go on sale next month. I just got a Note 5 last month as my new phone. For $99 it should pair well with the relatively high resolution OLED screen on the phone. This will be the first VR unit that I'll have here. I did get to check out the Sony units a few years back, but those were only 720p.
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Old 10-22-2015, 08:25 PM
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Yes the conversation was about the newly announced JVC projectors. Since they are much brighter, you will be closing the iris down more and he will get higher contrast.

Say what you want, but my eyes did not lie to me. What I saw on a 14' wide screen looked very good. Also the JVC RS500/600 will do everything UHD BD will offer (except full resolution) over the next few years, while we wait for true 4K projectors prices to drop. If you are waiting until next year for that true 4K projector at 5k, then I am afraid you will be disappointed.
ah good your talking about the newly announced in which case, a book for me yet unopened

true 4k at 5k I like the sound of that, but yeah no pre conceptions thats going to happen. but what might happen is the minute you invest in one of these UHD fake 4K ones next year a true 4K one will come along...which will dig a bit deep in heart and mind !

and very true re looks very good. my x35 does as it is ...and thats partly the conundrum I suspect many will face...give up on something that looks very good....for ....

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Old 10-22-2015, 08:27 PM
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that's great Mike, thank you! There is so much excitement for the new JVC's, they have clearly been hard at work for the last 2 years.

Rich, good to hear you are enjoying some of the recent 3D titles. if you get a chance, check out San Andreas 3D - very immersive the way they filmed the 3D (lots of POV, over the should shots for impact and depth).

Stanger89 - I know many here have relatively low gain screens, dim 3D vs. it's brighter 2D counterpart has been a topic for a while. I know you would get a kick out of my Sharp 3D DLP on the 2.8HP. It's quite bright even through the glasses. If the new JVC's are brighter in 3D, I think this will be a great benefit for many who may want to re-visit 3D a second time.

its good to hear they have been hard at work. will keep a look out for some feedback on how they stand up vs the previous beauties

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Old 10-22-2015, 10:20 PM
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ah good your talking about the newly announced in which case, a book for me yet unopened

true 4k at 5k I like the sound of that, but yeah no pre conceptions thats going to happen. but what might happen is the minute you invest in one of these UHD fake 4K ones next year a true 4K one will come along...which will dig a bit deep in heart and mind !

and very true re looks very good. my x35 does as it is ...and thats partly the conundrum I suspect many will face...give up on something that looks very good....for ....
I'm fine with getting either the RS500 or RS600 with the added brightness, HDR support, P3 support, and of course UHD support as a true 4K JVC, when it debuts, is going to be much higher in cost so maybe I will have a few years until a laser 4k version is affordable as a replacement.

Mike
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