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Old 12-05-2015, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
Wow! Was I impressed with the 550 -- 2D and 3D. I only got a chance to play Christmas Carol (animated) in 3D. This is a tough test since it's fairly dark and there's lots of opportunity for some obvious ghosting. I didn't see any!
Wow, wasn't expecting that from you.

Now I wonder how Zombie will feel about the 3D here vs the Sharp 17k. I didn't think the JVC had much chance of dethroning the champ, but with the better CR I'm now wondering which he will prefer overall, if JVC really did reduce the ghosting a bunch.

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Old 12-05-2015, 01:41 PM
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Wow, wasn't expecting that from you.

Now I wonder how Zombie will feel about the 3D here vs the Sharp 17k. I didn't think the JVC had much chance of dethroning the champ, but with the better CR I'm now wondering which he will prefer overall, if JVC really did reduce the ghosting a bunch.

--Darin
Don't worry I'll have another go at it (looking for X-talk) latter today. When called for, the 550 was doing effortless fade to blacks, which really surprised me (no bright corners on the demo unit). I do like fade to blacks -- now to see if it will do this with my HP screen.
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Old 12-05-2015, 02:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Is this your first JVC that your buying? Are you sending them the 550 back when the 750 arrives?

regarding the QA, this might be a coincidence but Mike @ AVS and mine are from the same batch and both look to be good samples. That could be a bit of luck or perhaps someone at JVC is looking at these 600's first.

Monsters Vs. Aliens is a good 3D torture test, tons of high contrast scenes where x-talk can't hide and also a number of low APL scenes which looked great on the JVC from an earlier viewing. The thing for me will come down to the flicker. it's rock solid on the DLP, like watching a 2D movie, zero fatigue on my eyes during extended viewing. I'll calibrate the RS600 in 3D later tonight and do some 1/2 hour runs of my favorite 3D movies to see if i'm ok with it.

DV - what 3D kit are you using? For my quick tests earlier I was using the inexpensive Xpand kit that is available on amazon. It claims it's for Mitsubishi only but it's the same glasses as the Xpand 105. Also comes with this RF transmitter which is a great bargain for ~$25. I also have a set of the Sony RF glasses and Epson RF's here as well to check out.

let me know what content you're checking out.

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Old 12-05-2015, 02:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Darin, it's been a little while since HDR was discussed. Can you give some thoughts on how native contrast will affect the overall HDR experience? I'm thinking RS600 vs. VW665 as an example for comparison. When I had the VW600 here, the native was 'ok' but not really anything to write home about. low APL scenes were generally disappointing (for my preferences).

Did I read earlier than Kris was going to have one of these and possible the JVC RS500 at the same time?
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Old 12-05-2015, 02:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Looking over the horizon (at the bottom shot) why is detail lost compared to the RS45? not fully calibrated, i presume?
Correct on calibration - the other element is a smart phone vs. a Nikon SLR with very expensive lens. I have to charge the batteries on the Nikon for better 3D screenshots.

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Wow, great to know Zombie about the 3D performance. That's one of the things I wanted in the new JVCs. I'll have to hook up my 3D transmitter to the RS600 and give it a whirl.

So, if I want to adjust for the best 3D image, it's the "cross-talk" control I should be dialing in?
there really wasn't anything to dial in. I just ran MvA and looked at a number of known x-talk issue scenes + the L/R patterns with no other adjustments. Colors are completely overcooked in the default 3D mode, this needs the usually 3D calibration I like to do through the glasses. i'll post some 3D 'best practice' settings over the weekend.
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Old 12-05-2015, 05:40 PM
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after about an hour looking at 2D, I went in and checked a number of scenes on MvA and also the L/R patterns. I am not sure exactly how JVC did this, but x-talk control is better than any previous JVC and any Sony I've seen including the VW1000/1100, VW500/VW600, HW40/50/55/65 (by a long shot actually).

it even passed my infamous IMAX Grand Canyon scene where the dark tree cuts into the blue sky which is the achilles heal for non-DLP's. I need more time with this later tonight and will post a few screenshots through the glasses.


This is great stuff, getting feedback from All you guys on the new models! Avs at its best
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Old 12-05-2015, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
Don't worry I'll have another go at it (looking for X-talk) latter today. When called for, the 550 was doing effortless fade to blacks, which really surprised me (no bright corners on the demo unit). I do like fade to blacks -- now to see if it will do this with my HP screen.
Congrats! Curious to hear how you feel about the ghosting after you run through some more material as you and Zombie are about the only ones I trust on this particular subject. Hoping Zombie will post the l/r 3d pattern as well at some point. Also curious to hear if flicker has been improved at all. Have fun and wish I was joining you guys this year!

EDIT: Just saw Zombies comments above.....VERY cool!!
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Old 12-05-2015, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
Just did a five hour road trip (there and back) to see the JVC 550 (the 750s are all sold but more by mid month).Wow! Was I impressed with the 550 -- 2D and 3D. I only got a chance to play Christmas Carol (animated) in 3D. This is a tough test since it's fairly dark and there's lots of opportunity for some obvious ghosting. I didn't see any!

To make a long story short I ordered a 750 and brought a 550 home with me for my screening room. Somebody's got to stop me from doing these things. My rationalization -- I was going to purchase the 78" Samsung (JS9500) on sale; however the two JVC's were very close to the same price. I sure hope my 550 looks as good as the uncalibrated one in the showroom.

Rich -- I met the product manager for JVC Canada (and his kids) and told him about your problems. He told me to tell you to contact JVC Canada directly. He wants to know about these issues and fix them -- apparently the projectors go through another inspection in North America before going to customers. JVC needs some feedback so it can revisit its quality control.

Wow, a JVC 3D endorsement from Daja Vu. Never thought I would ever see that.
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Old 12-05-2015, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
Just did a five hour road trip (there and back) to see the JVC 550 (the 750s are all sold but more by mid month).Wow! Was I impressed with the 550 -- 2D and 3D. I only got a chance to play Christmas Carol (animated) in 3D. This is a tough test since it's fairly dark and there's lots of opportunity for some obvious ghosting. I didn't see any!

To make a long story short I ordered a 750 and brought a 550 home with me for my screening room. Somebody's got to stop me from doing these things. My rationalization -- I was going to purchase the 78" Samsung (JS9500) on sale; however the two JVC's were very close to the same price. I sure hope my 550 looks as good as the uncalibrated one in the showroom.

Rich -- I met the product manager for JVC Canada (and his kids) and told him about your problems. He told me to tell you to contact JVC Canada directly. He wants to know about these issues and fix them -- apparently the projectors go through another inspection in North America before going to customers. JVC needs some feedback so it can revisit its quality control.
There you go Rich. Stop putting hours on that pig () and get ahold of this JVC product manager. He should be embarrassed to see how poor a copy of their "reference" machine made it out into the market to be bought by an unfortunate customer like yourself ....... and will make sure you have no problem getting a replacement. Maybe you could even talk him into having one looked at for QC before it gets to you in replacement? Tell him what a "black" performance junkie you are..... no bright corners and no horrendous streaking acceptable on a $10,000 MSRP projector.
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Old 12-05-2015, 07:40 PM
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Darin, it's been a little while since HDR was discussed. Can you give some thoughts on how native contrast will affect the overall HDR experience?
I'm going to go with a fairly extreme example for this purpose and then we could talk about the cases that start out better.

Here is one of my concerns with HDR and CR. Let's start with a 1000:1 on/off CR display I heard about which supports HDR and I don't believe has a dynamic iris type system.

With SDR I'll use 100 nits for white since that is basically standard even though most of us don't hit it and there is the whole projector vs flat panel thing.

If we use a standard gamma we can figure out approximately where things should lie along the curve in nits. For example if we just look at the bottom 1/5th of the encoding levels, the 20% video level should at about 3 nits from 0.20^2.2=0.03 and 3% of 100 nits is 3 nits.

From our 1000:1 on/off CR we know the black floor is 0.1 nits, from 1/1000th of 100 nits. So, the contrast ratio from a 20% video level object to black is limited to about 30:1 from 3 nits divided by 0.1 nits.

Now let's consider HDR with this same setup. With HDR many parts of many images are likely to be encoded at levels that result in approximately the same nit levels as for their SDR counterpart versions when both are run at their correct white levels. The main differences as far as this are likely to be some really bright scenes and some scenes with little highlights.

For this case I'll take the extreme of using this display at 1000 nits for HDR, where it still has the same 1000:1, so now the black floor is 1 nit (from 1000/1000).

For the scenes that are encoded with everything bright this has some similarity to playing SDR at 1000 nits. In both cases the black floor would be 1 nit and all the objects in the scenes would be bright anyway.

For the scenes that are encoded mostly like SDR except for some highlights, doing those highlights bright means moving the white level up and the black level up. In this case we've moved the peak white from 100 nits to 1000 and the black floor from 0.1 nits to 1 nit.

Now if we consider an object that is 20% video level in SDR and is supposed to be at about 3 nits out of 100 is now encoded at a lower level on the curve in order to end up at 3 nits out of 1000. However, that means it only has a ratio of 3:1 from the black floor now instead of 30:1, which is the kind of thing human vision can see if there is not a lot of other light in the scene to bias our eyes.

It we consider the scenes that are basically not HDR (as in encoded like their SDR counterparts for nit levels) then the fact that the display had to be able to do 1000 nit whites for some scenes means that the black floor for these SDR scenes just went up 10x and the ratio between the 100 nits and the black floor went down by 10x.

A dynamic iris could help, but for one thing we are already using a dynamic iris to improve many scenes and we don't want them to become more noticeable. I'm also concerned about what happens with an HDR highlight toggles and off. A small highlight isn't likely to bias the eye much and you don't want the rest of the image jumping around so much that we see pumping.

The Sony case is of course far from this extreme example both because it has more on/off CR and we aren't going to go for a 10x multiplier from SDR peak to HDR peak, so shouldn't have as many problems, but I expect the basic issue to be there at times. If the encoding was done with a dynamic iris in mind that might help the situation, which is something they could do for digital cinema if they haven't already since they know what they are playing.

If we decide to run SDR and HDR at exactly the same peak nits (say 100) then the issue I have is that we now need to roll off the detail that is above 100 nits in the HDR version. We only have 1000:1 to work with in my extreme example case and if we rob some of that to keep from clipping at 100 nits we need to then we leave less CR for the range from somewhat below white to black. This is an option, but then you aren't really doing the highlights that HDR is supposed to provide. We could just go with a 2x multiplier for highlights and save the nits from 100 to 50 for everything encoded at 100 nits and above in the HDR version, but now that 20% video level object has about 15:1 instead of 30:1 to black if it is encoded at the same nits in SDR as HDR and we've moved all those lower end things down 50% to make room for the highlights.

Not sure if that is clear at all.

--Darin

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Old 12-05-2015, 07:43 PM
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There you go Rich. Stop putting hours on that pig () and get ahold of this JVC product manager. He should be embarrassed to see how poor a copy of their "reference" machine made it out into the market to be bought by an unfortunate customer like yourself ....... and will make sure you have no problem getting a replacement. Maybe you could even talk him into having one looked at for QC before it gets to you in replacement? Tell him what a "black" performance junkie you are..... no bright corners and no horrendous streaking acceptable on a $10,000 MSRP projector.
Ron, things happen. Could have even been damaged in shipment. Heck, I was concerned about mine, since the styrofoam packing was all broken up, but my sample is excellent.

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Old 12-05-2015, 07:47 PM
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Ron, things happen. Could have even been damaged in shipment. Heck, I was concerned about mine, since the styrofoam packing was all broken up, but my sample is excellent.
Sure, I understand that. Not meaning it as an indictment of JVC. But it also sounds like the ones coming into the US are getting looked at before they go out. I just want to see Rich with a properly performing reference JVC. Faint bright corners hard to see on a screen (forget the white paper test) are one thing but in your face bright corners, terrible streaking and mediocre convergence is the trifecta of bad luck with that unit.
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Old 12-05-2015, 07:53 PM
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Wow, a JVC 3D endorsement from Daja Vu. Never thought I would ever see that.
I've said for awhile now that if JVC could get 3D right I'd buy one. They got it right from what I've seen so far so I bought two!

So hats off to JVC -- this is the best 3D I've seen so far -- I've been looking for ghosting and I think I might have seen a little (but I would't swear to it -- probably my imagination) and the ghost-free image coupled with great contrast and clarity makes for very compelling 3D. I've put it through a few torture tests and so far so good -- this is close to DLP (I'm keeping my fingers crossed). I'm running the 550 in low lamp mode, manual iris at -5 and auto 1 or 2 (I'm experimenting) and getting a bright 3D image on my 120" HP screen. No fades to blacks as in the showroom (but a much brighter image on the screen) but very close. I'm really impressed. My 550 is pretty much flawless (no convergence issues, streaking or bright corners).
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Old 12-05-2015, 07:54 PM
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Sure, I understand that. Not meaning it as an indictment of JVC. But it also sounds like the ones coming into the US are getting looked at before they go out. I just want to see Rich with a properly performing reference JVC. Faint bright corners hard to see on a screen (forget the white paper test) are one thing but in your face bright corners, terrible streaking and mediocre convergence is the trifecta of bad luck with that unit.
I bet JVC will take care of him, they just have to be given a chance to do so.

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Old 12-05-2015, 08:01 PM
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I'd think it likely just going back to his dealer and telling him what he has in that unit, that JVC would make it right for the dealer and Rich as well. But this is extra nice with Deja Vu having the ear of the JVC Canada Product Mgr already for him.
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Old 12-05-2015, 08:04 PM
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I've said for awhile now that if JVC could get 3D right I'd buy one. They got it right from what I've seen so far so I bought two!

So hats off to JVC -- this is the best 3D I've seen so far -- I've been looking for ghosting and I think I might have seen a little (but I would't swear to it -- probably my imagination) and the ghost-free image coupled with great contrast and clarity makes for very compelling 3D. I've put it through a few torture tests and so far so good -- this is close to DLP (I'm keeping my fingers crossed). I'm running the 550 in low lamp mode, manual iris at -5 and auto 1 or 2 (I'm experimenting) and getting a bright 3D image on my 120" HP screen. No fades to blacks as in the showroom (but a much brighter image on the screen) but very close. I'm really impressed. My 550 is pretty much flawless (no convergence issues, streaking or bright corners).
Just curious if you're running the crosstalk reduction at all or is this set to '0'? Any comments on flicker?
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Old 12-05-2015, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by RonF View Post
I'd think it likely just going back to his dealer and telling him what he has in that unit, that JVC would make it right for the dealer and Rich as well. But this is extra nice with Deja Vu having the ear of the JVC Canada Product Mgr already for him.
Basically what I am saying, I fully expected Rich to be taken care of, just had to let his dealer know, so that the dealer can contact JVC about the issues.

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Old 12-05-2015, 08:21 PM
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Just curious if you're running the crosstalk reduction at all or is this set to '0'? Any comments on flicker?
I saw the crosstalk canceller in the menu but I haven't felt the need to touch it. I'm not sensitive to flicker but saw a little when I was running it in normal (high) lamp mode on my 2.8 gain HP screen -- really bright. It wasn't a problem for me but I suspect Zombie will be bothered by it some. I haven't seen any flicker since putting the JVC in low lamp mode, which works great for 3D with my HP screen.

BTW I asked the product manager for JVC Canada about 4K panels and laser light sources for their products. He said that JVC wants to keep quality up and the price within reason -- native 4K panels and lasers right now are going to put their products out of many enthusiasts' reach from a cost perspective (JVC already has 4K and lasers in some of their non-HT products) -- JVC could lower the overall quality and do this but they have made a decision to make the best affordable projectors they can and I think they've done that.

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Old 12-05-2015, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
I saw the crosstalk canceller in the menu but I haven't felt the need to touch it. I'm not sensitive to flicker but saw a little when I was running it in normal (high) lamp mode on my 2.8 gain HP screen -- really bright. It wasn't a problem for me but I suspect Zombie will be bothered by it some. I haven't seen any flicker since putting the JVC in low lamp mode, which works great for 3D with my HP screen.

BTW I asked the product manager for JVC Canada about 4K panels and laser light sources for their products. He said that JVC wants to keep quality up and the price within reason -- native 4K panels and lasers right now are going to put their products out of many enthusiasts reach from a cost perspective -- JVC could lower the overall quality and do this but they have made a decision to make the best affordable projectors they can and I think they've done that.
That matches up with what we reported, after talking with JVC USA and it makes sense. Who is going to pay an extra $2,000 for laser, especially when you can get a 4,500 hour rated lamp.
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Old 12-05-2015, 08:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
I've said for awhile now that if JVC could get 3D right I'd buy one. They got it right from what I've seen so far so I bought two!

So hats off to JVC -- this is the best 3D I've seen so far -- I've been looking for ghosting and I think I might have seen a little (but I would't swear to it -- probably my imagination) and the ghost-free image coupled with great contrast and clarity makes for very compelling 3D. I've put it through a few torture tests and so far so good -- this is close to DLP (I'm keeping my fingers crossed). I'm running the 550 in low lamp mode, manual iris at -5 and auto 1 or 2 (I'm experimenting) and getting a bright 3D image on my 120" HP screen. No fades to blacks as in the showroom (but a much brighter image on the screen) but very close. I'm really impressed. My 550 is pretty much flawless (no convergence issues, streaking or bright corners).
Heads are exploding across the AV universe.. DV with a JVC for 3D - how did this happen?!

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Old 12-05-2015, 08:40 PM
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Screw the laser for now. Even if they only bring one native UHD model out next year at around $10000 they will sell like hotcakes. They can still make eshift units for those who don't want to spend a lot.
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Old 12-05-2015, 08:53 PM
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I think the delta was larger than $2k at least as far as JVC is concerned. If the new bulbs live up to expectation, then laser becomes less of a want.

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Old 12-05-2015, 09:06 PM
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I think the delta was larger than $2k at least as far as JVC is concerned. If the new bulbs live up to expectation, then laser becomes less of a want.
I just picked 2k at random. But even at 2K I think most people would balk at the price difference.
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Old 12-05-2015, 09:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Old 12-05-2015, 09:15 PM
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quick D65 cal in low lamp - 1285 lumens @ 17 feet from my 142" 16:9

That is really nice light output, especially since you are close to mid throw.

mjgarrett100@gmail.com

My Baffle wall LCR build: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...-tpl-150h.html
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Old 12-05-2015, 09:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Old 12-05-2015, 09:31 PM
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Heads are exploding across the AV universe.. DV with a JVC for 3D - how did this happen?!

Oh! I forgot about that movie. I wonder if the blu-ray is high quality and I can watch it and be impressed using the RS500...
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Old 12-05-2015, 09:32 PM
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Wow. Good job JVC.
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Old 12-05-2015, 09:48 PM
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Wow. Good job JVC.
This really makes the manual iris a great feature to have to dial down the brightness as needed.
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Old 12-05-2015, 10:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Darin thanks for feedback on the HDR topic - hopefully you and Kris can see it on the VW665 and the RS500.

MadMyers - I just watched about 10 minutes of the Mars Attacks blueray - very nice transfer considering it was filmed nearly 20 years ago. This is one of my favorite campy movies with the best line 'they blew up congress'! low APL scenes look amazing in a way that your HW30 would never be able to reproduce as well as the JVC. get the movie and check it out!



A quick check on the color space - I am using Custom1 with no CMS changes and dE's are very low with very good saturation tracking. largest dE was blue @ 50% about 1.8 dE.

as with the previous generation, greyscale tracking is a bit off at 5-20 IRE, red is a little hot here even though it's perfect at 25/30 IRE. I will pick up the Spyder 4 next week and play around with the new autocal software. it should be easy to fix this.
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