Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 407 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12181 of 17901 Old 12-05-2015, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
J

Rich -- I met the product manager for JVC Canada (and his kids) and told him about your problems. He told me to tell you to contact JVC Canada directly. He wants to know about these issues and fix them -- apparently the projectors go through another inspection in North America before going to customers. JVC needs some feedback so it can revisit its quality control.
Thank you very much for that. It's very helpful. I don't expect perfection from any projector - I've never had it in any of mine (particularly convergence), but this case is something else. (Which I'm mostly going to discuss with my dealer at this point).

As others have expressed, I can hardly believe seeing you enthusiastic about 3D on a JVC projector! If it really does produce minimal ghosting for you, I bet you'll also appreciate what the JVC's contrast brings to the realism of 3D.

But...I'm confused here: you are talking about the 550 and 750 JVC projectors. Aren't those old models?
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post #12182 of 17901 Old 12-05-2015, 09:30 PM - Thread Starter
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reposting this from the JVC Owners thread, the X550 is the RS400.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMyers View Post
Let's add a thread name decoder ring...

"Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000)"

Starting with the RS600...

RS600 is the North America Reference ("custom install") unit, which is the same as the
X950R is the North America Procision ("retailer") unit, which is the same as the
X9000 is the European model (neither "reference" nor "procision")

And then for the RS500

RS500 is the North America Reference unit, which is the same as the
X750R is the North America Procision unit, which is the same as the
X7000 is the European model (neither "reference" nor "procision")
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post #12183 of 17901 Old 12-05-2015, 09:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Manni, hi I am reposting this here, the owners thread is going to be moving at 100 MPH and didn't want to miss this.

Thanks for the response. I'd really like to check this out on the new JVC's but sounds like we have some work to do to ensure it's going to display properly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Test content is easy to find (trailers of Exodus or Life of Pi in UHD HEVC HDR for exemple, there is even a dedicated thread on AVS with lots of links here http://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lc...ted-often.html) the problem is how to play them. I'll try with my HTPC but there is no guarantee that the players (MPC-BE with LAV and MadVR, PowerDVD 15) will be able to play them correctly. I mean, they play fine all washed out on the X500, just wondering if playing them on the new models in HDR mode with the correct gamma mode will be enough to get them to display properly.

The HD Fury Integral might help as it has a feature allowing to inject HDR metadata in the stream when the source isn't compatible, but I haven't experimented yet as I haven't had an HDR compatible display at hand.

Shame that Amazon for now only support HDR on the app integrated into some panels, but not in the Roku 4 or Fire TV. Really weird!

By the way, the source doesn't need to support HDMI 2.0a, but in that case you have to switch the display manually between SDR and HDR.

This is how Sony and JVC did their demos at IFA and Cedia, using a Sony 4K player (which doesn't support HDMI 2.0a) with some HDR content on it.

I'm hoping I'll find a way to get either the Roku 4 or my HTPC to be able to play these demo files.

I'm going to buy the Club3D Displayport 1.2 to HDMI 2.0 active adapter (http://club-3d.com/index.php/product...e-adapter.html) as soon as it's available (hopefully towards the end of this month) to convert my HD7870 to a proper HDMI 2.0 18gb/s GPU with HDCP 2.2, as buying the 960 would be a side step.

Hoping that Arctic Islands will show up before the end of 2016 for a proper GPU upgrade.
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post #12184 of 17901 Old 12-05-2015, 10:04 PM
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Ok zombie thanks. This alphabet soup is too hard to keep track of. Especially when they start re-using old model numbers for new models!
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post #12185 of 17901 Old 12-05-2015, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
quick D65 cal in low lamp - 1285 lumens @ 17 feet from my 142" 16:9
Nice numbers!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
That is really nice light output, especially since you are close to mid throw.
That's closer to wide open. 142" diagonal has a range of ~15' to 29'....so mid would be about 22'.

Here is my build thread:

---->Like a Boss Theater Build<----
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post #12186 of 17901 Old 12-06-2015, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Thank you very much for that. It's very helpful. I don't expect perfection from any projector - I've never had it in any of mine (particularly convergence), but this case is something else. (Which I'm mostly going to discuss with my dealer at this point).

As others have expressed, I can hardly believe seeing you enthusiastic about 3D on a JVC projector! If it really does produce minimal ghosting for you, I bet you'll also appreciate what the JVC's contrast brings to the realism of 3D.

But...I'm confused here: you are talking about the 550 and 750 JVC projectors. Aren't those old models?
JVC just has too many model numbers -- its hard to keep them straight.

I was going to buy the 950 (600) but decided that for an extra $500 I could buy the 750 (500) and the 550 (400). I don't get bragging rights but instead I got the 550 for $500! I have two rooms so it'll get used a lot and for the cost difference of a JVC lamp it seemed logical to me. Also, I like having a backup projector (insurance policy) just in case.

I have to say again just how impressed I am with the 550.
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post #12187 of 17901 Old 12-06-2015, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
To make a long story short I ordered a 750 and brought a 550 home with me for my screening room. Somebody's got to stop me from doing these things. My rationalization -- I was going to purchase the 78" Samsung (JS9500) on sale; however the two JVC's were very close to the same price. I sure hope my 550 looks as good as the uncalibrated one in the showroom.
Wait, You bought two JVC's or the X550 is temporary until the X750 arrives?

Update: I wrote this before reading your subsequent post. I have a second room as well and if it had better light control I might have considered a second projector as well.

Bruce K.

Last edited by BruceJK; 12-06-2015 at 07:48 AM.
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post #12188 of 17901 Old 12-06-2015, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

But...I'm confused here: you are talking about the 550 and 750 JVC projectors. Aren't those old models?
I think he means X550 and X750, not the older HD550 and HD750.

Bruce K.
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post #12189 of 17901 Old 12-06-2015, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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bumping this info again since the page rolled after the discussion last night.

1285 lumens 2D low lamp D65
@ 17 feet from my 142" 16:9

1820 lumens in 2D high lamp @ d65


for some reference, the new Sony HW65 at this same throw was ~1250 lumens in high lamp. This used to be a slight advantage for the 1080P Sony's over last gen, now seriously trumped once the JVC is in high lamp. Sony fan volume seems to have gone up a bit this year as well in high lamp.

For those just receiving your 2016 JVC's, I would recommend using the 'Custom1' color profile as a baseline. This is as close to R709 as it gets with very good saturation tracking @ 75/50/25.
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post #12190 of 17901 Old 12-06-2015, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
bumping this info again since the page rolled after the discussion last night.

1285 lumens 2D low lamp D65
@ 17 feet from my 142" 16:9

1820 lumens in 2D high lamp @ d65


for some reference, the new Sony HW65 at this same throw was ~1250 lumens in high lamp. This used to be a slight advantage for the 1080P Sony's over last gen, now seriously trumped once the JVC is in high lamp. Sony fan volume seems to have gone up a bit this year as well in high lamp.

For those just receiving your 2016 JVC's, I would recommend using the 'Custom1' color profile as a baseline. This is as close to R709 as it gets with very good saturation tracking @ 75/50/25.
Thanks Zombie! Really appreciate this info as I'm sure it will help tons of people when they get their projectors.

I'm not new the JVC lingo and UI, so I have a question. Custom1 comes from the factory with some settings that are different than the other "defaults"? From the manual I thought custom1 meant it was used to store modifications made by the user.

I'm probably confused by the various similar name "color profile", "picture mode". Are you referring to picture mode = "User X" with "color profile" set the custom 1?

Thanks!
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post #12191 of 17901 Old 12-06-2015, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
...apparently JVC Canada do an extra round of QC on the projectors, taking a bit longer to get them out.
Wow. The logistics of this seem frightening. Either a special on site QA for units shipped to Canada after the standard QA... Or all units are shipped to another Canadian specific site, opened, and additional QA is performed... Then they ship "non compliant" units back???
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post #12192 of 17901 Old 12-06-2015, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Edit: 12/13/2015 - adding screen adjustment mode table

edit: 12/14/2015 - added link to Manni's excellent primer on 2016 JVC Autocal software.

http://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/projector/screen/

JVC makes it hard to find the user manual - for those interested, here is a PDF of the full manual for the 2016 models.

http://hometheaterphotos.com/project...016_Manual.pdf

Basic settings / Menu options

The first option you choose when setting up the projector is the 'Picture Mode'. examples, film1, Thx, Natural, etc. I always go for 'User1' to start with because this becomes my '2D Low' setting (you can change the profile username unlike the Sony which is a PITA).

Once this is selected, you can then choose the 'Color Profile', 'Gamma Setting' and also the 'Color Temp'.

From there, you can set user adjustments for each selection. So for Color Profile in 2D low, I select 'Custom1' with the CMS turned off. This is as close as it gets to an R709 setting with good saturation tracking. For Gamma, I choose the user mode where you can set a specific baseline such as 2.3. For the color temp, also a user mode where you can set a baseline of 6500K which then allows specific adjustments to the gains and offsets.

So when I'm done calibrating the projector, I end up with 3 picture modes. 2D Low, 2D high and 3D high. When going into 3D, you must manually change the picture mode or it will be in 3D, but in either 2D low/high picture mode, depending on what you were watching in 2D.

Here are some example screenshots to follow from the description above:

Picture Mode



In this screen, you can see I renamed 'user 1' to '2D Low' - this makes it easier to identify which mode to select.



going into the picture mode menu, you will see the following options. If you would like to lower the iris, change the 'lens aperture' setting to manual - then adjust the iris to your liking - then turn 'auto2' back on. This will now use the dynamic iris, but only go as bright as your set iris level.



to understand what the 'Clear Black' setting does - look at the description and example below. I like to keep it on low or medium and iris set to 'Auto 2'



going back to the picture mode settings, here is what the 'Color Profile' setting looks like



Also for 'Color Temp' - you see I started with a 6500K baseline, this wasn't perfect out of the box and needed some adjustment as expected. I had to pull down some red and green for the gains and green and blue for the offsets. Greyscale tracking is good when adjusting 30/80 IRE but will need some help @ 5-20 with the help of the auto-cal software + meter.

Note: this is just for my specific JVC, most projectors will be different. Without calibration equipment, leave these settings at 0.



Gamma Setting - set it to 'Custom 1' and choose 2.3 as the baseline.



Details from JVC on the Picture Tone, Dark Level and Bright Level settings.

My recommendation - find a number of scenes in a movie you are familiar with and try the various adjustments. You'll quickly see what each setting does and can adjust to your liking.



This is obviously not a substitute for a full calibration, but a good general overview of how to get started - especially if you have never worked with the JVC menu system. If you have any questions, please post them in the thread for discussion.

** Please see this link for a detailed discussion on the JVC auto-cal software. Currently it requires a Spyder 4 Pro or Elite, Spyder 5 support will be added sometime in Q1/2016.

JVC Calibration Software V6 For 2015 Models (X9000,X7000,X5000,RS400,RS500,RS600)

enjoy your new JVC!

Last edited by zombie10k; 12-14-2015 at 10:17 AM. Reason: adding auto-cal primer
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post #12193 of 17901 Old 12-06-2015, 11:59 AM
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Toe -- this post is for you!

Giants of Patagonia

This is the "Mission Impossible" test for non-DLP 3D projectors. If DLPs get 10/10 for handling ghosting during this IMAX film then the new JVC gets a 9.5/10, which in my opinion is exceptional. My Epson 6010 and 6020 don't come close and they're considered to be some of the best non-DLPs when it comes to handling ghosting. With the high contrast and brightness (I now run 3D in low lamp, manual iris at -8 and it's still really bright on my 2.8 HP screen) the overall 3D image is the best I've witnessed so far -- I'm not sensitive to flicker, so I can't comment on that part of the 3D equation.

In his review of the 900 Kraine didn't mention 3D -- too bad because JVC now has one of the best (probably the best) non-DLPs for 3D! I'm becoming a JVC fanboy.
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post #12194 of 17901 Old 12-06-2015, 12:06 PM
 
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How does lumen output fare in 3D mode? Is there a big loss of light?

I'm eagerly awaiting my RS500!
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post #12195 of 17901 Old 12-06-2015, 12:10 PM - Thread Starter
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I was looking all over last night for the 'HDR' setting... So it's 'Gamma D'



manni, I downloaded a number of the files from the link you posted:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lc...ted-often.html

When you play these back, they look blown out on the X500? You mentioned PowerDVD 15, do you see any issues playing back these files on my HTPC, it's a Core I7, 32GB with the older Nvidia GTX 780Ti.
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post #12196 of 17901 Old 12-06-2015, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
bumping this info again since the page rolled after the discussion last night.

1285 lumens 2D low lamp D65
@ 17 feet from my 142" 16:9

1820 lumens in 2D high lamp @ d65


for some reference, the new Sony HW65 at this same throw was ~1250 lumens in high lamp. This used to be a slight advantage for the 1080P Sony's over last gen, now seriously trumped once the JVC is in high lamp. Sony fan volume seems to have gone up a bit this year as well in high lamp.

For those just receiving your 2016 JVC's, I would recommend using the 'Custom1' color profile as a baseline. This is as close to R709 as it gets with very good saturation tracking @ 75/50/25.
Thanks for posting this Zombie...I'm waiting on a RS500...coming from a Sony 55ES. Bring on those lumens! And those blacks!
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post #12197 of 17901 Old 12-06-2015, 12:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
How does lumen output fare in 3D mode? Is there a big loss of light?

I'm eagerly awaiting my RS500!
Don't quote me on this yet, but I saw ~1200 lumens in 3D un-calibrated high lamp. I'll run it through the glasses tonight and see how much a D65 cal behind the glasses takes this down.
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post #12198 of 17901 Old 12-06-2015, 12:22 PM
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Thanks for posting this Zombie...I'm waiting on a RS500...coming from a Sony 55ES. Bring on those lumens! And those blacks!
The Savoy goes up another notch.
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post #12199 of 17901 Old 12-06-2015, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
Toe -- this post is for you!

Giants of Patagonia

This is the "Mission Impossible" test for non-DLP 3D projectors. If DLPs get 10/10 for handling ghosting during this IMAX film then the new JVC gets a 9.5/10, which in my opinion is exceptional. My Epson 6010 and 6020 don't come close and they're considered to be some of the best non-DLPs when it comes to handling ghosting. With the high contrast and brightness (I now run 3D in low lamp, manual iris at -8 and it's still really bright on my 2.8 HP screen) the overall 3D image is the best I've witnessed so far -- I'm not sensitive to flicker, so I can't comment on that part of the 3D equation.

In his review of the 900 Kraine didn't mention 3D -- too bad because JVC now has one of the best (probably the best) non-DLPs for 3D! I'm becoming a JVC fanboy.
So are you referencing your experience with the JVC projectors (3D) AFTER your demo?
You actually have one now?

If so, and the JVC is actually holding up in 3D in your own set-up, that's really exciting.
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post #12200 of 17901 Old 12-06-2015, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post
The Savoy goes up another notch.
Hope so....during the initial equipment selection I decided to spend the bulk of the budget on the audio side. Hoping the RS500 brings the video up to par with the audio. Sounds like it will be!
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post #12201 of 17901 Old 12-06-2015, 12:36 PM
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BTW...is anyone finding the HDMI handshaking s-l-o-w on these things? My RS600 seems to me to be spending significantly more time on blank screens and handshaking than my RS57, to the point of missing the beginnings of discs etc when images finally appear. (I thought this was one area touted as purportedly improved in the new models, but I have seen the Cine4home guys also admit the handshaking is slow as well).
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post #12202 of 17901 Old 12-06-2015, 01:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Rich my setup is pretty simple and all components are close to one another.

Mede8ter media player -> Denon 4311 -> Mini 3D or Darbee -> RS600. I was moving around quite a bit last night between 1080P 60hz, 24hz and also 3D. I didn't see any issues during handshaking, it seemed relatively quick to me compared to previous models. I'm sure different components, length of HDMI cables will come into play here

I did try to get my Sony 4K 'Puck' to work on the JVC last night with no luck. There must be some other communication between the Sony devices that is preventing this from working. I get stuck in 480P mode with a blue screen. I tried both HDMI ports.


edit: DV bought TWO JVC's, the RS400 and the RS500. He has a number of other 2D/3D projectors, DLP's, LCD's and has a background with CRT's as well.
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post #12203 of 17901 Old 12-06-2015, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlbeck View Post
Hope so....during the initial equipment selection I decided to spend the bulk of the budget on the audio side. Hoping the RS500 brings the video up to par with the audio. Sounds like it will be!
I've got the same scenario and awaiting the RS500 and larger screen.
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post #12204 of 17901 Old 12-06-2015, 01:14 PM
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Thanks for that info Zombie. It's interesting that the handshaking in my case would seem slower, since I've actually bypassed
my VP and sending the signal straight from the Oppo Blu-Ray to the projector.

I'd be very interested in your assessment of the DI on the new models. There have been times that the DI looked like it works as Mozen first suggested in his shoot-out thread: that the DI essentially does nothing if there is any light at all on the screen.
Again, I haven't seen a bit of pumping on any credits with the DI on. Yet, at other times I seem to see the DI doing something similar to my RS57 DI - for instance the scene in Prometheus which starts with a virtually black tunnel and then the character's flashlights appear very far away. The RS600 DI seemed to clamp down on that, including as the flashlights appeared, since I could see similar brightness compression on the flashlights as on my RS57. Still scratching my head about this, but I don't want to put much time on my current unit.
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post #12205 of 17901 Old 12-06-2015, 01:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Rich, i'll take a closer look at it over the next few days. Once again I spent hours watching Oblivion last night - even though I have never actually watched this movie from beginning to end. I have all the great eye candy scenes memorized though.

@Manni01 - can you check my post from earlier on the HDR?
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post #12206 of 17901 Old 12-06-2015, 01:55 PM
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Rich, I also experience slow handshaking but I have an old 50' DVI cable with HDMI adaptors that sometimes won't even sync with the projector (replacing that now).
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post #12207 of 17901 Old 12-06-2015, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Rich, i'll take a closer look at it over the next few days. Once again I spent hours watching Oblivion last night - even though I have never actually watched this movie from beginning to end. I have all the great eye candy scenes memorized though.

@Manni01 - can you check my post from earlier on the HDR?
Have you been able to look at the DI on the RS600? I will probably not use it myself as I am sensitive to gamma/brightness changes, but curious none the less.
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post #12208 of 17901 Old 12-06-2015, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Thanks for that info Zombie. It's interesting that the handshaking in my case would seem slower, since I've actually bypassed
my VP and sending the signal straight from the Oppo Blu-Ray to the projector.
I would put the player in a forced mode, like 1080p, and not Auto. Sometime it is just the back and forth from that. When I talked to JVC at CEDIA they said the speed of locking onto a signal was about the same, no increase, but the stability of the connections was greatly improved.

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post #12209 of 17901 Old 12-06-2015, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
BTW...is anyone finding the HDMI handshaking s-l-o-w on these things? My RS600 seems to me to be spending significantly more time on blank screens and handshaking than my RS57, to the point of missing the beginnings of discs etc when images finally appear. (I thought this was one area touted as purportedly improved in the new models, but I have seen the Cine4home guys also admit the handshaking is slow as well).
Rich,

With an X750R using 35' HDMI run direct from both a Tivo and an Oppo 103D (not running video through AVR), it's fairly quick.

I'm using the Monoprice 18GBPS Cabernet cables .
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post #12210 of 17901 Old 12-06-2015, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
Have you been able to look at the DI on the RS600? I will probably not use it myself as I am sensitive to gamma/brightness changes, but curious none the less.
yes I was looking for the delayed black out and dynamic gamma flair up in Oblivion interrogation scene. It's pretty subtle with the iris clamped down to -11 but is a bit more obvious at wide open. The black out seems a bit quicker (switching to MF smoking the cigar in near pitch black) and the flair up (TC in the chair with the bright spotlight) appears to recover quicker than the previous models.
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