Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 411 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 12-07-2015, 03:28 PM
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I am going to test the Roku 4 with the HDR clips I have tonight. I'm not a fan at all of the Sony player, but it is what Sony provided for the review with the clips. I'm hoping the Roku works. The Sony player's menus and general interface are poor and I've had nothing but issues trying to download their content.
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Old 12-07-2015, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post
Thanks for the clarification Manni!

I just picked one up for $100 (OEM refurbished + $30 for 2yr SquareTrade warranty), on the bay. Figured it was worth the risk and if Kris says Kaput then I can always use it for Netflix 4K (or a really big coaster in the theater, like Jason must be doing with his Puck!).
That's a great price, well done.

I'd buy one at that price
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Old 12-07-2015, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I am going to test the Roku 4 with the HDR clips I have tonight. I'm not a fan at all of the Sony player, but it is what Sony provided for the review with the clips. I'm hoping the Roku works. The Sony player's menus and general interface are poor and I've had nothing but issues trying to download their content.
I hope the Roku 4 works too
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Old 12-07-2015, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Not the same model.

Jason tried the old puck (the X1). That's the one people put in a bin before being able to get any interesting content on. Jason just happens to be the only one who kept his, but it's little more than a door stop

Kris has the new model (the X10). Not the puck, the brick. That's the one that can play HDR content and was used by Sony and JVC to demo HDR on their projectors at IFA / Cedia.
I got the X1 puck to show image, but no sound on my RS600. I was using HD Fury Integral feeding through AV7702.
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Old 12-07-2015, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
I got the X1 puck to show image, but no sound on my RS600. I was using HD Fury Integral feeding through AV7702.
Have you upgraded the HD Fury Integral f/w and GUI to select the correct EDID parameters as discussed? You probably need to do this to get sound.
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Old 12-07-2015, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
only support Dolby Vision with Calman.
Hmmm...Not sure this is accurate, I thought they recently announced support for HDR-10.
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Old 12-07-2015, 04:03 PM
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Calman supports HDR10. Stacey and Tyler from Spectracal are coming over to my place on Friday. I will be talking with them about the calibration stuff, but it sounds like it isn't nearly as cut and dry as one would hope. I'll update as I learn more.
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Old 12-07-2015, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by mikela View Post
Hmmm...Not sure this is accurate, I thought they recently announced support for HDR-10.


Link?

They recently announced support for Dolby Vision, and according to them that's the only HDR format they can support on consumer displays (they can support HDR10 on pro mastering monitors, but that won't help us here).

I started a thread at Spectracal forums a few weeks ago asking about HDR10 support specifically for the JVCs and Joel (Calman's lead developer) said it was not possible as it was not a standard and each consumer implementation was proprietary to each manufacturer.

Here is the link: http://www.spectracal.com/forum/view...hp?f=92&t=5859

For those who are not registered, here are Joel's main points:

"HDR10 content has meta data content describing the mastering monitor peak brightness and native gamut.

How that get maps down to the target device is undefined and up to each manufacturer to implement. This is where Dolby Vision is widly more thought out. Flat panels where much brighter than projector, how does that get mapped? How is gamut remapping handled? Nobody except an internal JVC employee could tell you how that projector is suppose to work with HDR. HDR10 has no guidence at all for consumer calibration.

Oh well the white point should be D65, that's about the only thing we know for sure."

and then, as I still had some hope and tried a bit more, mentioning the elusive peak brightness setting that I'm sure I saw on some pre-prod units:

"There is literally no guidance.

How should a 100nit projector roll off a 1000 nit master?

100 nits means clipping at bit 512, 1000 nits is bit 750ish. Should you clip at 512, no you shouldn't.

So what EOTF gracefully maps bit 750 into bit 512. How do you handle the chromaticity shifts with rolling off so much light?

There literally is no standard and no information. HDR10 is an incomplete standard and has ZERO guidance for consumer viewing. While I understand that it's much more widely available, all the manufacturers are doing their own thing for consumer viewing so it's basically the wild west.

That said, we have full HDR10 support for mastering content, and setting all the metadata to test HDR10. You just can't do a consumer calibration, because right now consumer calibration is an imaginary concept for HDR10."

That reads like a no to me.

This is why I had some hope that the JVCs would have a setting to specify peak white, as it would have made support more realistic, but it looks like it's gone MIA. So right now, I'm not counting on Calman to calibrate the JVCs to HDR. I hope it will change because I LOVE Calman (I own Calman 5 Ultimate and Lightspace HC but prefer Calman to calibrate the JVCs and work with MadVR).

Last edited by Manni01; 12-07-2015 at 04:15 PM.
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Old 12-07-2015, 04:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Mike, can you try hooking it directly to the RS600 to see if you get the same results? (480P blue screen on both ports?)

Kris - Hurry on the Roku, I have 56 minutes to have one overnighted for tomorrow if it works...

damn - make that 55 minutes now.
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Old 12-07-2015, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Link?

They recently announced support for Dolby Vision, and according to them that's the only HDR format they can support on consumer displays (they can support HDR10 on pro mastering monitors, but that won't help us here).
This is from an email I received:

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

SPECTRACAL RELEASES SUPPORT FOR HIGH DYNAMIC RANGE FORMAT HDR-10.


CCW, New York City – November 11, 2015. SpectraCal, Inc. announced support for High Dynamic Range standard HDR-10 in a new version of its flagship monitor calibration software CalMAN today.

CalMAN Version 5.6.1 creates the HDR-10 metadata information to test, measure, and calibrate currently shipping HDR-10 televisions.

Maybe they were just kidding
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Old 12-07-2015, 04:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post
It'll be interesting to see what Kris finds out (I assume you confirmed it's the same model?… any potential for firmware updates to consider?), as I'd love to pick one up if we can confirm functionality!

I know it could be your camera (which I know is excellent stuff), but the shadow detail looks excellent IMO.

OT - Did you ever pick up the sequel to this very cute and well done movie (Sammy II - I bought it a while bcd but haven't watched it yet)?
It's been a while since I had the puck updated, maybe i'll try that to see if I can get it working.

the Sammy sequel is so bad, I refuse to play it, even for demo's. Some other studio must have got a hold of it and butchered the story + characters for a quick cash grab on the original.

2 great recent 3D animations I like are 'Home' and 'Big Hero 6' plenty of 3D eye candy + nice color
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Old 12-07-2015, 04:33 PM
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Why didn't JVC leave the 12 pt gamma in the regular cal settings? Why did they make it only available with a Spyder of all meters?


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Old 12-07-2015, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikela View Post
This is from an email I received:

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

SPECTRACAL RELEASES SUPPORT FOR HIGH DYNAMIC RANGE FORMAT HDR-10.


CCW, New York City – November 11, 2015. SpectraCal, Inc. announced support for High Dynamic Range standard HDR-10 in a new version of its flagship monitor calibration software CalMAN today.

CalMAN Version 5.6.1 creates the HDR-10 metadata information to test, measure, and calibrate currently shipping HDR-10 televisions.

Maybe they were just kidding
That's funny, maybe Joel didn't get the memo?


Seriously, unless they were speaking about pro monitors in the release (which doesn't seem to be the case as they are talking about televisions) in the release, that doesn't make any sense.

My exchange with Joel is from the 23rd of November, so way after that release. And it wasn't a maybe, it was a clear "no".

Maybe they only do TVs and not projectors because of the 1000nits mastering and have no way to know what a PJ will deliver, while they might be able to get reasonably close with a TV aiming for 1000nits?

I'll try to get to the bottom of this and I'll get back to you.
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Old 12-07-2015, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Have you upgraded the HD Fury Integral f/w and GUI to select the correct EDID parameters as discussed? You probably need to do this to get sound.
Have not even had time to turn my projector back on and I would much rather do that.

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Old 12-07-2015, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Calman supports HDR10. Stacey and Tyler from Spectracal are coming over to my place on Friday. I will be talking with them about the calibration stuff, but it sounds like it isn't nearly as cut and dry as one would hope. I'll update as I learn more.
Looking forward to your update.
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Old 12-07-2015, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
It's been a while since I had the puck updated, maybe i'll try that to see if I can get it working.

the Sammy sequel is so bad, I refuse to play it, even for demo's. Some other studio must have got a hold of it and butchered the story + characters for a quick cash grab on the original.

2 great recent 3D animations I like are 'Home' and 'Big Hero 6' plenty of 3D eye candy + nice color
I Loved BigHero6 (didn't expect it to be that good and in fact the last 3D I watched on the RS57 so it'll be exciting to see on the new RS500!).
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Old 12-07-2015, 06:48 PM
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If the two most devout DLP 3D members on the forum give these new JVCs their seal of approval, I'm sold.
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Old 12-07-2015, 07:52 PM
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If the two most devout DLP 3D members on the forum give these new JVCs their seal of approval, I'm sold.
This has gotta be killin' Todd knowing he already spent the wad that was left in his replacement wallet (his first one was stolen!).
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Old 12-07-2015, 08:05 PM
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Just an update. The Roku 4 does allow playback of the HDR content as long as you can force the HDR mode, which the JVC and Sony can do. I've noticed a bit of a green cast to the image though. I am going to look and see if the same thing is there with the Sony player looking at the same content.
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Old 12-07-2015, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Calman supports HDR10. Stacey and Tyler from Spectracal are coming over to my place on Friday. I will be talking with them about the calibration stuff, but it sounds like it isn't nearly as cut and dry as one would hope. I'll update as I learn more.
I recall a forum member alluding how easy this would be, but I had a feeling this was not going to be the case. Looking forward to your feedback.


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Old 12-07-2015, 08:16 PM
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So the clips don't have the bizarre green push when played back through the Sony player so I think the Roku 4 may not be ideal at the moment. Content looks considerably better thru the Sony. But, for some reason the Sony doesn't recognize all the clips I have on the USB stick. Only about half despite being the same format (MP4).
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Old 12-07-2015, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post
This has gotta be killin' Todd knowing he already spent the wad that was left in his replacement wallet (his first one was stolen!).

It hurts! That first wallet is LONG gone as you know Kevin! It's MUCH, MUCH more fun being in the game this time of year vs a bench seat, but I'm happy for you guys and living vicariously through you all. While I would LOVE a new JVC this year, I am happy with what I blew the wad on at least. I'll be back in the starting lineup next year as long as you save me a spot!
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Old 12-07-2015, 08:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Kris, did the Exodus trailer play on both devices?

What kind of controls do you have access to on the Sony? Similar to the JVC picture tone, etc?
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Old 12-07-2015, 08:50 PM
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It hurts! That first wallet is LONG gone as you know Kevin! It's MUCH, MUCH more fun being in the game this time of year vs a bench seat, but I'm happy for you guys and living vicariously through you all. While I would LOVE a new JVC this year, I am happy with what I blew the wad on at least. I'll be back in the starting lineup next year as long as you save me a spot!

I bet, but yo stuff ain't be slouchin' either so I'm sure your covered till the time is right! Hope that new wallet brings you a LOT more joy than that old beat up version my friend!
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Old 12-07-2015, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Kris, did the Exodus trailer play on both devices?

What kind of controls do you have access to on the Sony? Similar to the JVC picture tone, etc?
No, the Exodus trailer doesn't show up when plugged into the Song for some reason. When you go into HDR mode on the Sony there are no adjustments for the EOTF. But then again there isn't any for normal gamma either other than presets.
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Old 12-07-2015, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Kevin, I tried the original Sony puck and had no luck getting it to work with the JVC. Tried both HDMI ports and all I got was a blue 480P screen. There must be some other sync going on between the unit and the projector besides HDMI 2.0 / HDCP 2.2.

a fellow member looking to move from the HW55 to the new JVC asked me to check Sammy's Adventures, one of the toughest 3D movies out there. Extreme parallax in pretty much every scene. it's hard to believe how well it does with this content.

I do still see the mild flicker I'm accustomed to seeing with the previous JVC's but will give it some time to see if I can get used to it. The caveat of having a very good 3D DLP as well which is flawless here, but lacking native contrast by a good margin.



left eye through the glasses

Thx or the test, That looks good i think..Now i think i gonne sell my sony hw55.
By the way wich 3d glasses and emitter did u use?


Best regards
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Old 12-07-2015, 09:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
No, the Exodus trailer doesn't show up when plugged into the Song for some reason. When you go into HDR mode on the Sony there are no adjustments for the EOTF. But then again there isn't any for normal gamma either other than presets.
Thanks Kris. I wonder if there is something in the file name that is preventing the player from seeing it?

I just found one of these new for $130 so I picked it up just to experiment with the JVC. thanks for all your input so far!
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Old 12-08-2015, 02:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Calman supports HDR10. Stacey and Tyler from Spectracal are coming over to my place on Friday. I will be talking with them about the calibration stuff, but it sounds like it isn't nearly as cut and dry as one would hope. I'll update as I learn more.
That's still not what Tyler said in the thread I opened, they need to be clearer in their communication.

I posted a link to their PR asking what the situation was and Tyler still said Calman couldn't support HDR10.
Note that my thread is specific to the JVCs.

If it's maybe, why say no the way they do, and yet send out a PR announcing support?
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Old 12-08-2015, 02:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Just an update. The Roku 4 does allow playback of the HDR content as long as you can force the HDR mode, which the JVC and Sony can do. I've noticed a bit of a green cast to the image though. I am going to look and see if the same thing is there with the Sony player looking at the same content.

This is great news, thanks Kris. Are you playing the file with the P3 filter on? It might be the reason for the green cast if that content is mastered in P3, which it should be as it's tagged as BT2020, not rec709. You might want to try using the cinema2 mode, I think that's the one that is calibrated for DCI/P3 and engages the P3 filter.
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Old 12-08-2015, 04:50 AM
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Kris or Zombie.
I saw where cine4home in one of his demos showed some WCG material to some spectators. Would you guys be able to look at this? Will be interested the brightness drop and your opinion in this material on the JVC.
Really good info on HDR you guys are putting out there along with Manni.
Thanks
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