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Old 12-08-2015, 04:58 AM
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Has anyone tried the Nvidia Shield? I have one on order, since the price for this was much lower than the Sony player and we cannot buy the Roku where I live.

Hoping for a good UHD demo clip capability from this machine, while waiting for the first UHD BD player on the market!
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Old 12-08-2015, 05:58 AM
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This is great news, thanks Kris. Are you playing the file with the P3 filter on? It might be the reason for the green cast if that content is mastered in P3, which it should be as it's tagged as BT2020, not rec709. You might want to try using the cinema2 mode, I think that's the one that is calibrated for DCI/P3 and engages the P3 filter.
Yes, the material I'm looking at is in P3 but with the Roku 4 the greens are really bad. With the Sony player everything looks like it should. So I would stick to the Sony for now.
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Old 12-08-2015, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Yes, the material I'm looking at is in P3 but with the Roku 4 the greens are really bad. With the Sony player everything looks like it should. So I would stick to the Sony for now.

Thanks.


Wondering if it's the opposite then, maybe the Roku doesn't support 10bits output and it reverts to rec-709. Did you try to use a profile without the filter for the Roku?

Good to know that the Sony works well, although I'll be waiting for MadVR to support HDR myself.

Just ordered an AMD Fury to replace my aging HD7870, hoping that the hybrid HEVC acceleration will be good enough for now with demo content. I mostly have x264 content from bluray to playback anyway on the HTPC, so it's not really relevant for a while except for tests. As long as the Club3D adapter works as expected, I should be good to go until Artic Islands shows up.

I'm hoping my UHD Bluray player will handle Netflix and Amazon 4K streaming, otherwise I'll get a Roku 4 for streaming duties.
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Old 12-08-2015, 07:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Thx or the test, That looks good i think..Now i think i gonne sell my sony hw55.
By the way wich 3d glasses and emitter did u use?

Best regards
The glasses and transmitter are the Xpand 105. This kit below comes with the RF transmitter. It will work with all RF glasses with the exception of the Optoma / Monster Vision 3D RF which uses their own proprietary RF signal.

http://www.amazon.com/EX105BT-Shutte.../dp/B009ZW7SR2


JVC must have missed the memo that 3D is dead. There is thread around here somewhere that keeps going on how dead it is. Maybe after 2020?

http://pro.boxoffice.com/statistics/3d-release-calendar

The movie studios missed the memo too. Definitely looking forward to seeing some of these in 3D

Star Wars, Batman vs Superman, X-Men Apocalypse, Finding Dory, Resident Evil, Guardians of the Galaxy 2, Pirates of the Caribbean, Thor, Avengers Infinity War, Toy Story 4, The Incredibles 2 just to name a few.
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Old 12-08-2015, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by mikela View Post
Looking forward to your update.
I don't know yet if they will do anything about this confusing press release (see here: http://calman.spectracal.com/press-r...at-hdr-10.html), but Joel is clear that there is no support in Calman for any HDR10 consumer device. Excerpts from the thread I already linked:

"CalMAN doesn't create standards we implement them. Dolby Vision has a consumer playback standard. HDR10 does not."

"Every shipping HDR10 display has solved the problem in their own unique way. None of them want to disclose their remapping algorithm."

He even goes on comparing HDR10 to Betamax and HD-DVD, which is very confidence inspiring...

When I asked what to tell users like yourself wondering about this press release, he says: "I would tell them that HDR is really cool and if you are an early adopter that doesn't mind bumps in the road or being the guy that bought betamx and hd-dvd, that you can buy one and set it up. You can calibrate your white point. You can test it to see how it handles the remapping. CalMAN supports turning and setting all the HDR10 knobs in the spec."

So if I read between the lines, it means that at CES 2016 the industry will announce Dolby Vision as the HDR standard.

Or Joel is just in a facetious mood.

Anyway, forget that press release about HDR10 support in Calman, at best it only applies to professional monitors, as I initially said.

So as it stands, Calman doesn't support calibrating any HDR10 consumer device, and that includes the JVCs. Although if JVC was willing to share their remapping algorithm, it could change, as he adds when I ask him why they are not considering supporting the most popular displays like the new JVCs or the Sony 520/665ES: "If JVC wanted to share with us their idea we certainly could."

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Old 12-08-2015, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Thanks.


Wondering if it's the opposite then, maybe the Roku doesn't support 10bits output and it reverts to rec-709. Did you try to use a profile without the filter for the Roku?

Good to know that the Sony works well, although I'll be waiting for MadVR to support HDR myself.

Just ordered an AMD Fury to replace my aging HD7870, hoping that the hybrid HEVC acceleration will be good enough for now with demo content. I mostly have x264 content from bluray to playback anyway on the HTPC, so it's not really relevant for a while except for tests. As long as the Club3D adapter works as expected, I should be good to go until Artic Islands shows up.

I'm hoping my UHD Bluray player will handle Netflix and Amazon 4K streaming, otherwise I'll get a Roku 4 for streaming duties.
Looking at the same content without the P3 mode looks okay but not nearly as good as it does with it on using the Sony player.
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Old 12-08-2015, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I don't know yet if they will do anything about this confusing press release (see here: http://calman.spectracal.com/press-r...at-hdr-10.html), but Joel is clear that there is no support in Calman for any HDR10 consumer device. Excerpts from the thread I already linked:

"CalMAN doesn't create standards we implement them. Dolby Vision has a consumer playback standard. HDR10 does not."

"Every shipping HDR10 display has solved the problem in their own unique way. None of them want to disclose their remapping algorithm."

He even goes on comparing HDR10 to Betamax and HD-DVD, which is very confidence inspiring...

When I asked what to tell users like yourself wondering about this press release, he says: "I would tell them that HDR is really cool and if you are an early adopter that doesn't mind bumps in the road or being the guy that bought betamx and hd-dvd, that you can buy one and set it up. You can calibrate your white point. You can test it to see how it handles the remapping. CalMAN supports turning and setting all the HDR10 knobs in the spec."

So if I read between the lines, it means that at CES 2016 the industry will announce Dolby Vision as the HDR standard.

Or Joel is just in a facetious mood.

Anyway, forget that press release about HDR10 support in Calman, at best it only applies to professional monitors, as I initially said.

So as it stands, Calman doesn't support calibrating any HDR10 consumer device, and that includes the JVCs. Although if JVC was willing to share their remapping algorithm, it could change, as he adds when I ask him why they are not considering supporting the most popular displays like the new JVCs or the Sony 520/665ES: "If JVC wanted to share with us their idea we certainly could."
HDR10 is becoming more and more of a worry for me, especially with lower brightness displays like these projectors. It is literally turn on the mode and hope for the best. As I understand it right now the PQ curve that JVC implements is based on the assumption that the content was mastered on a 10,000 nit display. They suggest using the gamma controls to adjust on a per content basis as obviously different content is mastered at different levels, hence supporting Joel's claim. Ideally the HDR content would have metadata attached that says exactly what the master was done at and the end display would adjust accordingly, but I have almost no faith at all that we'll ever see that. Remember when HDMI was supposed to be a simple one cord solution with all the baked in I/O support that would make everything work magically together? They couldn't even get simple back and forth communications for turning on the tv and setting the input correctly and now we want them to pass metadata back and forth telling them (correctly) what the display can do and what the content is. Yeah, hold your breath for that.

HDR is one of those things that sounds great and performs great in the best of circumstances but from what I've seen and the information I've look at it is not anywhere near ready for prime time if you want it implemented correctly. Sure we can get it to work and it looks alright, but we're a long way from true standards and calibrated viewing. I'd rather they just left it alone for a bit and focused on getting UHD out there without it. Once that dust is settled and you've had time to figure out how to PROPERLY implement HDR, whether it is HDR10 or Dolby or something else, then roll it out. I have a sneaking suspicion that HDR is going to throw a wrench in our overall enjoyment of UHD Blu-ray for some time to come.

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Old 12-08-2015, 09:42 AM
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Looking at the same content without the P3 mode looks okay but not nearly as good as it does with it on using the Sony player.
Kris, have you had any opportunity to A/B compare the same content (a good source) at rec 709 vs P3?


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Old 12-08-2015, 09:49 AM
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Roku 4 can output 10-bit, there is a setting specifically for that. Mine is set up 10-bit to my Sammy tv.
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Old 12-08-2015, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Looking at the same content without the P3 mode looks okay but not nearly as good as it does with it on using the Sony player.
Makes sense then, it looks like the Roku 4 is losing the wider gamut, and possibly the 10bits as well. That writes it off for now as an HDR content demo player.

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HDR10 is becoming more and more of a worry for me, especially with lower brightness displays like these projectors. It is literally turn on the mode and hope for the best. As I understand it right now the PQ curve that JVC implements is based on the assumption that the content was mastered on a 10,000 nit display. They suggest using the gamma controls to adjust on a per content basis as obviously different content is mastered at different levels, hence supporting Joel's claim. Ideally the HDR content would have metadata attached that says exactly what the master was done at and the end display would adjust accordingly, but I have almost no faith at all that we'll ever see that. Remember when HDMI was supposed to be a simple one cord solution with all the baked in I/O support that would make everything work magically together? They couldn't even get simple back and forth communications for turning on the tv and setting the input correctly and now we want them to pass metadata back and forth telling them (correctly) what the display can do and what the content is. Yeah, hold your breath for that.

HDR is one of those things that sounds great and performs great in the best of circumstances but from what I've seen and the information I've look at it is not anywhere near ready for prime time if you want it implemented correctly. Sure we can get it to work and it looks alright, but we're a long way from true standards and calibrated viewing. I'd rather they just left it alone for a bit and focused on getting UHD out there without it. Once that dust is settled and you've had time to figure out how to PROPERLY implement HDR, whether it is HDR10 or Dolby or something else, then roll it out. I have a sneaking suspicion that HDR is going to throw a wrench in our overall enjoyment of UHD Blu-ray for some time to come.
I totally agree with all of this and I have the same fears. What I don't understand is why Joel is so definitive about the fact that there is no HDR10 standard and that Calman can't support HDR10 consumer devices - I get that - and why they publish this press release claiming they support HDR10 calibration for televisions. If they were saying professional monitor, I would understand, but given that they say televisions, which implies consumer devices, the two are mutually exclusive. I'm going to discuss it further, but not with Joel as I don't think I can get anything else out of him.

One detail though, my understanding is that 10000nits is the theoretical maximum for a PQ gamma curve. Even the Dolby Vision HDR monitor maxes at 4000nits, so that's the absolute maximum any content can be calibrated to. In practice, they calibrate to around 700-1000nits for consumer devices (my understanding is 1000nits for UHD Bluray) and 100nits for commercial cinemas.

So the content in Exodus and Life of Pi should be mastered with a peak white at 1000nits, not 10000nits. Then each manufacturer's implementation remaps this to the actual (or expected) peak white for each display. Whether everything above say 150 nits for the JVCs is clipped, or whether content is actually remapped, I have no idea.

MadVR will do the conversion internally, so it can send the content more easily to the display with a standard gamma (power or BT1886) curve. That would be nice if it works. Hopefully there will also be an option to get the original PQ gamma info, along with metadata. I'm hoping to be able to beta test an early version for Madshi as soon as I get an X7000. I'll let you know how it goes.

By the way, this is for Jason, Madshi says that we can try to get the current version of MadVR to play the HDR demo files, and it might work provided we can switch the display to HDR mode manually. However, you'll need a 10bits data path (MadVR Full Exclusive Mode) and setting the GPU drive to RGB might not work, we might have to select YCB4:4:4 for best results. I'll do tests anyway when I get the X7000 and will report my findings here.
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Old 12-08-2015, 09:56 AM
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Roku 4 can output 10-bit, there is a setting specifically for that. Mine is set up 10-bit to my Sammy tv.

Thanks, the Roku 4 does support 10bits, but it doesn't support HDR officially, that's why it might lose the 10bits and revert to rec-709. Can you be more specific about this setting to help Kris?

Kris, make sure the Roku is set to 10bits if that's an optional setting. It can't work properly with the HDR demo files unless it's set to 10bits.
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Old 12-08-2015, 10:28 AM
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Kris, have you had any opportunity to A/B compare the same content (a good source) at rec 709 vs P3?
No, all of the content I am looking at is just short clips that were probably used for test cases or proof of concept/demos. I did get the chance to look at some P3 vs 709 last week at Spectracal, but the P3 content was also in Dolby Vision so it was not a fair comparison of color gamuts on their own due to the inclusion of HDR.
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Old 12-08-2015, 10:33 AM
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Makes sense then, it looks like the Roku 4 is losing the wider gamut, and possibly the 10bits as well. That writes it off for now as an HDR content demo player.



I totally agree with all of this and I have the same fears. What I don't understand is why Joel is so definitive about the fact that there is no HDR10 standard and that Calman can't support HDR10 consumer devices - I get that - and why they publish this press release claiming they support HDR10 calibration for televisions. If they were saying professional monitor, I would understand, but given that they say televisions, which implies consumer devices, the two are mutually exclusive. I'm going to discuss it further, but not with Joel as I don't think I can get anything else out of him.

One detail though, my understanding is that 10000nits is the theoretical maximum for a PQ gamma curve. Even the Dolby Vision HDR monitor maxes at 4000nits, so that's the absolute maximum any content can be calibrated to. In practice, they calibrate to around 700-1000nits for consumer devices (my understanding is 1000nits for UHD Bluray) and 100nits for commercial cinemas.

So the content in Exodus and Life of Pi should be mastered with a peak white at 1000nits, not 10000nits. Then each manufacturer's implementation remaps this to the actual (or expected) peak white for each display. Whether everything above say 150 nits for the JVCs is clipped, or whether content is actually remapped, I have no idea.

MadVR will do the conversion internally, so it can send the content more easily to the display with a standard gamma (power or BT1886) curve. That would be nice if it works. Hopefully there will also be an option to get the original PQ gamma info, along with metadata. I'm hoping to be able to beta test an early version for Madshi as soon as I get an X7000. I'll let you know how it goes.

By the way, this is for Jason, Madshi says that we can try to get the current version of MadVR to play the HDR demo files, and it might work provided we can switch the display to HDR mode manually. However, you'll need a 10bits data path (MadVR Full Exclusive Mode) and setting the GPU drive to RGB might not work, we might have to select YCB4:4:4 for best results. I'll do tests anyway when I get the X7000 and will report my findings here.
I think the reason Spectracal posted that is because they do in fact support it so long as the variables are known, which they probably would be in a mastering house or on a set. There are A LOT of televisions used for that kind of work. On the consumer side it isn't as easy because like he said, too many variables in place and no clear standard that applies across all displays.

I also agree that the JVC PQ curve based on a 10,000 nit source seems high. If I was just going to randomly pick a level to use for the default I would have used 1,000 nits as it is probably closer to what we'll actually see. JVC has already stated that there will probably be running updates for firmware in relation to HDR as things become more known and the dust settles. Which goes back to my comment about HDR not being ready for primetime. I appreciate it as a selling point and I can understand why Sony and JVC want it on their feature list, but people expecting a mature tech even in the vein of 3D are in for disappointment as the industry as a whole is clearly not ready to deliver a consistent experience.
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Old 12-08-2015, 10:34 AM
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Thanks, the Roku 4 does support 10bits, but it doesn't support HDR officially, that's why it might lose the 10bits and revert to rec-709. Can you be more specific about this setting to help Kris?

Kris, make sure the Roku is set to 10bits if that's an optional setting. It can't work properly with the HDR demo files unless it's set to 10bits.
I'll look at the settings tonight. I don't recall anything in the menus about this but I could have missed it. I've only played with it a couple times.

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Old 12-08-2015, 10:47 AM
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I think the reason Spectracal posted that is because they do in fact support it so long as the variables are known, which they probably would be in a mastering house or on a set. There are A LOT of televisions used for that kind of work. On the consumer side it isn't as easy because like he said, too many variables in place and no clear standard that applies across all displays.

I also agree that the JVC PQ curve based on a 10,000 nit source seems high. If I was just going to randomly pick a level to use for the default I would have used 1,000 nits as it is probably closer to what we'll actually see. JVC has already stated that there will probably be running updates for firmware in relation to HDR as things become more known and the dust settles. Which goes back to my comment about HDR not being ready for primetime. I appreciate it as a selling point and I can understand why Sony and JVC want it on their feature list, but people expecting a mature tech even in the vein of 3D are in for disappointment as the industry as a whole is clearly not ready to deliver a consistent experience.
There is no doubt that HDR is not ready for prime time, but if Spectracal want to help with consumer display calibration, at least until a proper standard is defined or chosen, they'd better get to work on the consumer side of HDR10 calibration, at least for the most popular displays, because almost ALL consumer content is mastered to HDR10 (only mandatory format in UHD Bluray, and virtually all the streaming content on offer, whether Amazon HDR, Ultrafix HDR, M-Go HDR etc) uses HDR10.

All the HDR consumer displays support HDR10 as well, and none support Dolby Vision, to the exception of one Vizio set AFAIK, at least in the UK. So overall, the consumer standard is HDR10, at least for this year. They can kick and scream, find it unfinished all they want, that's the one they need to be able to handle, even if that means getting a unit of each popular model/brand in house and figuring out what the best settings are. Dolby Vision is irrelevant in the consumer world in 2015/early 2016. It might be a mistake, and we might very well end up with a better, different format, but that's what we have to play with.

JVC owners are in a better situation thanks to the JVC Autocal, which should deliver a decent HDR and SDR calibration. With other displays, it's going to be painful if they don't find a way to handle it.

But that it's a big, ugly mess, I totally agree.
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Old 12-08-2015, 10:50 AM
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There is no doubt that HDR is not ready for prime time, but if Spectracal want to help with consumer display calibration, at least until a proper standard is defined or chosen, they'd better get to work on the consumer side of HDR10 calibration, at least for the most popular displays, because almost ALL consumer content is mastered to HDR10 (only mandatory format in UHD Bluray, and virtually all the streaming content on offer, whether Amazon HDR, Ultrafix HDR, M-Go HDR etc) uses HDR10.


All the HDR consumer displays support HDR10 as well, and none support Dolby Vision, to the exception of one Vizio set AFAIK, at least in the UK. So overall, the consumer standard is HDR10, at least for this year. They can kick and scream, find it unfinished all they want, that's the one they need to be able to handle, even if that means getting unit of each popular model/brand and figuring out what the best settings are. Dolby Vision is irrelevant in the consumer world in 2015/early 2016. It might be a mistake, and we might very well end up with a better, different format, but that's what we have to play with.

JVC owners are in a better situation thanks to the JVC Autocal, which should deliver a decent HDR and SDR calibration. With other displays, it's going to be painful if they don't find a way to handle it.

But that it's a big, ugly mess, I totally agree.
I'm lost here, why are JVC owners in a better situation? What good is the Auto calibration if you don't know what to calibrate it to? What Joel is saying is how do you setup a calibration if there is no known reference? The PQ curve is based on an assumption of a mastering monitor and what to do if you aren't the same as that monitor. So unless you know, and also know how to properly change that EOTF, what good is the autocal??

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Old 12-08-2015, 10:54 AM
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Kris, why did Calman quit supporting JVC? I know my calibrator, Chad B, was able to use a setting in Calman (not gamma or black level...cannot recall what it was) that does a great job getting better near black shadow detail on my RS4810. I don't own a video processor and this is a bit of a concern for me on a new JVC. I love the shadow detail I am getting today.


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Old 12-08-2015, 11:01 AM
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I'm lost here, why are JVC owners in a better situation? What good is the Auto calibration if you don't know what to calibrate it to? What Joel is saying is how do you setup a calibration if there is no known reference? The PQ curve is based on an assumption of a mastering monitor and what to do if you aren't the same as that monitor. So unless you know, and also know how to properly change that EOTF, what good is the autocal??
Joel is saying that what stops them from supporting HDR10 calibration in consumer displays is that manufacturers are not willing to share the relevant information with them (i.e. the way they remap the luminance data from say the 1000nits to which the content was mastered to the 150 nits it's able to produce). He even said that if JVC was sharing this, they would be happy to support them.

So my deduction is that JVC, having designed their own proprietary HDR10 implementation, have this missing information at hand and can use it to produce a decent calibration with the JVC Autocal software.

They know that they have to get from 1000nits (what the content was mastered to) to 100 or 150 nits, and they know how they remap the data internally.

Now if the HDR metadata doesn't convey what we need to know about what it was mastered to, then I agree there is no standard. But if it's as bad as that, then we can all pack up and go home.

That's not what Joel said though. He said the missing info was info from the manufacturer, related to the way the data is remapped. He never mentioned once the fact that the HDR10 metadata would not be available so that we wouldn't even know which target was used when mastering the content. Without that info, no calibration - and no accurate display of the content - is possible.

I think that the adjustments you can make to the gamma curve in the low and high end are only to adjust for the variations on the display itself (which mode is selected, iris setting, low or high lamp, etc). It can't be enough to adjust between content mastered to 500nits and content mastered to 10000nits.

So I'm hoping that the mastering metadata info which is part of the HDR10 standard does indeed reach the display, so that it can remap according to its capability. That's the whole point of making sure it's not discarding at some point by the source or the chain, and also why MadVR's option to do the conversion internally and output it as standard gamma is very clever (as there is no risk to lose the crucial info at some point in the chain). It might end up being the best implementation of HDR10 (display independent), and possibly Dolby Vision if it ends up being supported as well.

Anyway, that's pure speculation on my part, I would really need to get a unit to test to see things more clearly with actual content and a known capable source.

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Old 12-08-2015, 11:09 AM
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Joel is saying that what stops them from supporting HDR10 calibration in consumer displays is that manufacturers are not willing to share the relevant information with them (i.e. the way they remap the luminance data from say the 1000nits to which the content was mastered to the 150 nits it's able to produce). He even said that if JVC was sharing this, they would be happy to support them.

So my deduction is that JVC, having designed their own proprietary HDR10 implementation, have this missing information at hand and can use it to produce a decent calibration with the JVC Autocal software.

They know that they have to get from 1000nits (what the content was mastered to) to 100 or 150 nits, and they know how they remap the data internally.

Now if the HDR metadata doesn't convey what we need to know about what it was mastered to, then I agree there is no standard. But if it's as bad as that, then we can all pack up and go home.

That's not what Joel said though. He said the missing info was info from the manufacturer, related to the way the data is remapped. He never mentioned once the fact that the HDR10 metadata would not be available so that we wouldn't even know which target was used when mastering the content. Without that info, no calibration - and no accurate display of the content - is possible.

I think that the adjustments you can make to the gamma curve in the low and high end are only to adjust for the variations on the display itself (which mode is selected, iris setting, low or high lamp, etc). It can't be enough to adjust between content mastered to 500nits and content mastered to 10000nits.

So I'm hoping that the mastering metadata info which is part of the HDR10 standard does indeed reach the display, so that it can remap according to its capability.

Anyway, that's pure speculation on my part, I would really need to get a unit to test to see things more clearly with actual content and a known capable source.
But I've already told you that JVC is assuming a mastering monitor of 10,000 nits for their PQ curve. Maybe over time this will change or get updated but as of right now you're using autocal to calibrate to a PQ curve that is centered on a display level that doesn't even exist. Again, this may change with time, but it is still an issue. And I do believe (based on the conversations I've had) that the HDR10 metadata is going to be as bad as you're hoping it won't be. Again, nothing that I've seen from history has given me any confidence that it won't be, and given the conversations I've had with insiders and industry folk, it could end up being a nightmare. But I'm trying not to be too negative and crossing my fingers that in the end we'll see something that works.

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Old 12-08-2015, 11:10 AM
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Kris, why did Calman quit supporting JVC? I know my calibrator, Chad B, was able to use a setting in Calman (not gamma or black level...cannot recall what it was) that does a great job getting better near black shadow detail on my RS4810. I don't own a video processor and this is a bit of a concern for me on a new JVC. I love the shadow detail I am getting today.
No idea. I could ask the Spectracal guys when they come over Friday though.
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Old 12-08-2015, 11:20 AM
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But I've already told you that JVC is assuming a mastering monitor of 10,000 nits for their PQ curve. Maybe over time this will change or get updated but as of right now you're using autocal to calibrate to a PQ curve that is centered on a display level that doesn't even exist. Again, this may change with time, but it is still an issue. And I do believe (based on the conversations I've had) that the HDR10 metadata is going to be as bad as you're hoping it won't be. Again, nothing that I've seen from history has given me any confidence that it won't be, and given the conversations I've had with insiders and industry folk, it could end up being a nightmare. But I'm trying not to be too negative and crossing my fingers that in the end we'll see something that works.
Then you should tell Joel, so that he doesn't blame the manufacturers' lack of information as the reason why Calman can't support HDR10 on consumer displays like the JVCs.

I quoted what he said. If JVC was willing to share the way they implemented their proprietary version of HDR10, they would be happy to support the JVCs in Calman. Nothing was said about missing the metadata info from the content. Do you have any link or reference substantiating that this information is missing? I'm not talking about the shot specific ST2086 information for gamut remapping, that's likely not going to happen, I'm talking about the ST2084 metadata to know at which peak white the HDR10 content was mastered to so that it's possible to remap this content to the capability of the display.

I think something got lost in Japanese/English translation with this 10000nits reference. Either it is the theoretical max, or the JVCs display something horribly wrong when displaying HDR.

If you display something that looks correct in HDR using the Sony player, then either JVC is correctly reading the ST2084 metadata and adjusting peak white to the value used to master the content, or everything should look horribly wrong and clipped.

Which is it?

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Old 12-08-2015, 11:20 AM
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No idea. I could ask the Spectracal guys when they come over Friday though.
Please do. It would be great if they started supporting JVC again.


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Old 12-08-2015, 11:24 AM
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Kris, why did Calman quit supporting JVC?
You've asked this before and I replied to your question. Easy to overlook, though. I recently started a thread at Spectracal's forum asking if they will try again this year, but haven't received a response yet.

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We have worked with JVC each year on the changing protocols. This year we asked for many changes and got them. But the reliability still was not there. Values written and values read did not always happen. I spent more time on this years models than previous years trying various workarounds. But in the end we "SpectraCal" are not able to make the protocol reliable. We can only work with what we are given. . . . It's simply the reliability of the communication protocol. We can't read and write the data from autocal without some of the data getting lost in the projector.
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Old 12-08-2015, 11:26 AM
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Then you should tell Joel, so that he doesn't blame the manufacturers' lack of information as the reason why Calman can't support HDR10.


I quoted what he said. If JVC was willing to share the way they implemented their proprietary version of HDR10, they would be happy to support the JVCs in Calman. Nothing was said about missing the metadata info from the content. Do you have any link or reference substantiating that this information is missing? I'm not talking about the shot specific ST2086 information for gamut remapping, that's likely not going to happen, I'm talking about the ST2084 metadata to know at which peak white the HDR10 content was mastered to so that it's possible to remap this content to the capability of the display.


I think something got lost in Japanese/English translation with this 10000nits reference. Either it is the theoretical max, or the JVCs display something horribly wrong when displaying HDR.


If you display something that looks correct in HDR using the Sony player, then either JVC is correctly reading the ST2084 metadata and adjusting peak white to the value used to master the content, or everything should look horribly wrong and clipped.


Which is it?
So Spectracal should have a different workflow for every display?? That is what you're implying by saying they can adapt to what manufacturers are doing. I don't think that makes a lot of sense.

We haven't seen the HDR10 metadata as it isn't out there. I'm saying when that time comes, I'm skeptical (at best) that it will work as intended. We're already seeing how cavalier everyone is being with HDR10, I don't expect it to get much better.

As for the "looking correct with the Sony player", I am not looking at a JVC, I am looking at a Sony projector. I don't have a new JVC yet. I don't know what Sony is using for their PQ curve, but it definitely DOES NOT look at metadata. You are just forcing their HDR mode to ON. At some point I think we will see firmware updates to HDMI based components that will allow for HDR metadata (Marantz has implied this, which is what I'm using). Right now you are just getting content and forcing whatever PQ solution the display manufacturer decided on to it and hoping for the best. Again, welcome to the wild west!

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Old 12-08-2015, 11:38 AM
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So Spectracal should have a different workflow for every display?? That is what you're implying by saying they can adapt to what manufacturers are doing. I don't think that makes a lot of sense.

We haven't seen the HDR10 metadata as it isn't out there. I'm saying when that time comes, I'm skeptical (at best) that it will work as intended. We're already seeing how cavalier everyone is being with HDR10, I don't expect it to get much better.

As for the "looking correct with the Sony player", I am not looking at a JVC, I am looking at a Sony projector. I don't have a new JVC yet. I don't know what Sony is using for their PQ curve, but it definitely DOES NOT look at metadata. You are just forcing their HDR mode to ON. At some point I think we will see firmware updates to HDMI based components that will allow for HDR metadata (Marantz has implied this, which is what I'm using). Right now you are just getting content and forcing whatever PQ solution the display manufacturer decided on to it and hoping for the best. Again, welcome to the wild west!
I'm only quoting Joel. Yes I think they should add support for the most popular HDR10 displays, and he agreed with that. He even said that if JVC was willing to share the missing information, they would be happy - and therefore able - to support the JVCs. They did that for their Autocal, supporting the JVCs, the Panasonic and a few other popular displays, why wouldn't they do the same for HDR calibration?

Please read the thread I linked to if you want to read the whole exchange.

What do you mean by the HDR10 metadata not being there yet? It's present with each file containing HDR content, including the Exodus and Life of Pi demo trailers, otherwise they couldn't be reproduced properly.

My understanding is that you have to switch the display to HDR manually because the source doesn't support the HDMI 2.0a profile, which allows the automatic handshake between the source and the display to switch automatically between SDR and HDR.

If it means that the HDR metadata information is stripped and doesn't reach the display, then it's worse than the wild west and the only reason why you would get HDR to display vaguely correctly would be if the manufacturer is banking on the most likely for consumer content - 1000nits, not 10000nits - otherwise what you'll see will be, again, horribly wrong.

Given that using the Sony player both Sony and JVC were able to do HDR demos, and given that most people having seen both agree that the JVCs were much better at displaying HDR, again I challenge your 10000nits default. That cannot be right, especially if the HDR metadata doesn't reach the display.

They can only get something vaguely right (allowing minor adjustments with their gamma curve) if they default to the most likely target for peak white for consumer content, which has to be between 700-1000nits, as they have current HDR capable flat panels in mind. Anything else doesn't make any sense, so I would double and triple check this information from JVC.

If when you try the rs600 in HDR with the Sony player you get something decent, then clearly that's not what they are using as a practical (not theoretical) target, even if it's an assumption as they can't get the actual metadata.

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Old 12-08-2015, 11:41 AM
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I'm not sure what JVC means by assuming 10k nits. I know that seems like a big difference from 1000 nits, but the number of levels above 1000 bits isn't that high. My understanding is that even if you wanted a 10k not curve but only had a 1k not display for mastering you would just clip the signals above 1k.

The consumer calibration should be different because we are consuming the source and so should roll the error off some instead of clipping.

Once you are only displaying say 100 bits I'm not sure the images would differ much whether assuming the source came from 1k nits mastering or 10k nits mastering. I would need to understand more about what their curve looks like.

It seems to me that one advantage of having a bunch of JVC owners around here is that people can share information about the brmest way to play these things back. For instance, during HDR's infancy we may find that we each want to set up multiple curves and then people can say which category they felt a particular source fell into when displayed with one of the new JVCs.

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Old 12-08-2015, 11:50 AM
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I'm not sure what JVC means by assuming 10k nits. I know that seems like a big difference from 1000 nits, but the number of levels above 1000 bits isn't that high. My understanding is that even if you wanted a 10k not curve but only had a 1k not display for mastering you would just clip the signals above 1k.

The consumer calibration should be different because we are consuming the source and so should roll the error off some instead of clipping.

Once you are only displaying say 100 bits I'm not sure the images would differ much whether assuming the source came from 1k nits mastering or 10k nits mastering. I would need to understand more about what their curve looks like.

It seems to me that one advantage of having a bunch of JVC owners around here is that people can share information about the brmest way to play these things back. For instance, during HDR's infancy we may find that we each want to set up multiple curves and then people can say which category they felt a particular source fell into when displayed with one of the new JVCs.

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I agree and this is one more reason to say that the issue regarding HDR calibration isn't on the metadata side but rather on the playback - display capability - side, and how each manufacturer remaps the original PQ curve from 1000nits (or 10000nits) down to 100-150nits. This is what Dolby Vision provides them, and what HDR10 doesn't.

Again, this is the information that Joel said was missing to support the JVCs for HDR calibration. He never mentioned once the lack of metadata on the content side.

I guess Kris should discuss this with Tyler and Stacey when he sees them, and try to get something that makes sense out of them.

By the way, if they don't need information regarding the display, why would they go to Kris to see how HDR10 is implemented on the JVC or the Sony?
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Old 12-08-2015, 11:59 AM
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Kris haven't read all of the latest pages on HDR, but 10K nits is the level the Dolby PQ as adopted in SMPTE 2084 is designed for. Without some tweaking there is a small error if you limit peak brightness below that. Fixed curve will perform well to relatively low peak levels, so at 1000 nits there is no real need for a dynamic metadata based variable curve eotf, even at 2000 nits. At for instance 4000 nits (the Sim2 HD HDR LCD) or more it would be different is what I heared from Philips that has developed such a dynamic metadata system. Philips has been designing for 5000 nits, but it also performs to higher values like Dolby has been working to.
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Old 12-08-2015, 12:00 PM
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My understanding is that you have to switch the display to HDR manually because the source doesn't support the HDMI 2.0a profile, which allows the automatic handshake between the source and the display to switch automatically between SDR and HDR.

If it means that the HDR metadata information is stripped and doesn't reach the display, then it's worse than the wild west and the only reason why you would get HDR to display vaguely correctly would be if the manufacturer is banking on the most likely for consumer content - 1000nits, not 10000nits - otherwise what you'll see will be, again, horribly wrong.
How is that metadata going to get there if both source and display don't support HDMI 2.0a? Having to switch manually says to me that one or both (probably the source in Kris's case) don't support HDMI 2.0a and thus the metadata is getting lost.
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Old 12-08-2015, 12:02 PM
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Kris haven't read all of the latest pages on HDR, but 10K nits is the level the Dolby PQ as adopted in SMPTE 2084 is designed for. Without some tweaking there is a small error if you limit peak brightness below that. Fixed curve will perform well to relatively low peak levels, so at 1000 nits there is no real need for a dynamic metadata based variable curve eotf, even at 2000 nits. At for instance 4000 nits (the Sim2 HD HDR LCD) or more it would be different is what I heared from Philips that has developed such a dynamic metadata system. Philips has been designing for 5000 nits, but it also performs to higher values like Dolby has been working to.
Thanks, that solves the lack of metadata side of the problem.

Now we can concentrate on cracking the manufacturer's secret sauce for Calman, and that confirms that the JVC Autocal should be a decent solution for JVC users, as unlike Spectracal, JVC know how they implemented the remapping in their display.
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