Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 415 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 12-09-2015, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Citation4444 View Post
The new firmware v130 for the LS10000 changes lumens, native contrast, e-shift, etc., all in a positive way, so that any review or impressions of one without this firmware is obsolete in that it is not indicative of current performance. Also, I have over 900 hrs on mine, and it exhibits no gamut shrinkage, gamma change, or contast reduction from when new.
What were your contrast measurements before and after the firmware update? I'm going to measure contrast on this LS10000 when I do the shootout.

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Old 12-09-2015, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Sure enough with Eshift on, but with it off, it drops down substantially, where the JVC still stays relatively high (comparatively). not discounting the "fast mode" as a detriment to video quality, but for gaming, it's a really nice thing to have.
eshift being on is important for those looking to semi-future proof their investment. Say Sony or Microsoft or Nintendo decide release a new console that can do 4K gaming in 1-2 years you'll have to enable eshift to be able to take advantage of the higher resolution input. Or even if you wanted to view UHD BDs you'll have to enable it and as that link I posted suggests, not many AVRs can do 240ms of audio sync delay so it can pose an issue. I just don't think it's acceptable for a projector in it's price range. It's almost double what JVC has with eshift enabled.
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Old 12-09-2015, 03:46 PM
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Does anyone have both the JVC RS500 and the Sony VW665es? It would be great is someone did and could post side by side pictures (I know that there are issues with this) and then explanations under the pics explaining what they saw that was different.
Compare and Contrast these:
Contrast
Sharpness
Color accuracy
Brightness
HDR
3D
Other features and pros and cons of each.
And anything else that separates the two.
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Old 12-09-2015, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by lancenell View Post
I for one would be very interested in Kris's review.

Have you seen an LS10k? And also, how do you choose when they excel in different areas? Doesn't it then become quite subjective? However, if we can get a unanimous vote from videophiles (the more anal the better Ha!) that understand what they're looking for/at, I will be sold.
The LS10000 does not have anywhere near 80,000:1 native contrast. I do not propose subjective. I propose measured results. The RS500/600 has more brightness, better contrast, better sharpness with E-shift engaged on both machines, lower street price and the RS500/600 will have more features (HDR and 18Gbps). Also the 600 has two year longer warranty. Yes, I have seen the LS10000 many times. It is a very nice projector, but it gets beat out here by the JVC's.
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Old 12-09-2015, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by curtishd View Post
Does anyone have both the JVC RS500 and the Sony VW665es? It would be great is someone did and could post side by side pictures (I know that there are issues with this) and then explanations under the pics explaining what they saw that was different.
Compare and Contrast these:
Contrast
Sharpness
Color accuracy
Brightness
HDR
3D
Other features and pros and cons of each.
And anything else that separates the two.
I owned the VW600 for a couple years and currently own an RS600. I sold the VW600 before the RS600 was delivered. Craig has both the RS600 and VW600 in his room.

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Old 12-09-2015, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
The LS10000 does not have anywhere near 80,000:1 native contrast. I do not propose subjective. I propose measured results. The RS500/600 has more brightness, better contrast, better sharpness with E-shift engaged on both machines, lower street price and the RS500/600 will have more features (HDR and 18Gbps). Also the 600 has two year longer warranty. Yes, I have seen the LS10000 many times. It is a very nice projector, but it gets beat out here by the JVC's.
Fine fine fine. So, when you have some B-stocks, email me a price You have all my info already Haha
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Old 12-09-2015, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by curtishd View Post
Does anyone have both the JVC RS500 and the Sony VW665es? It would be great is someone did and could post side by side pictures (I know that there are issues with this) and then explanations under the pics explaining what they saw that was different.
Compare and Contrast these:
Contrast
Sharpness
Color accuracy
Brightness
HDR
3D
Other features and pros and cons of each.
And anything else that separates the two.
You say you know there are issues with the pictures. If you know this then why do you want them? You aren't going to be able to see most of the differences within the pictures taken. It makes more sense if someone posted a summary, in words, of the differences they saw. The only area up for grabs would be "sharpness" in my opinion. This is kind of an ambiguous term that most people don't really know how to describe properly. Do you want to know which lens is better? Or do you want to know which image appears sharper? But more to this is how the image appears sharper because both projectors have forms of digital enhancement that can make the image appear sharper. In my experience, Reality Creation, in general, is more aggressive than it needs to be when you're feeding one of the Sony's 4K projectors a 1080p image. RC is far less aggressive when fed a 4K signal. With 1080p content there will be no clear winner and a recent German shootout of these two projectors showed that people couldn't really see that much difference in image detail with a 4K image sent to both projectors. With that said the JVC will have more brightness, higher on/off contrast (by a lot), can be calibrated to the same color accuracy as the Sony (but also has the ability to do P3 color which the Sony lacks), subjectively has better HDR due to the higher brightness and higher contrast (which is coming from reports of people who demo'ed both at CEDIA), and from what Zombie10k has shown in this thread has, by far, the best non-DLP 3D he's ever seen.
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Old 12-09-2015, 04:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Kevin - thanks for the offer, I bought the import of the Art of Flight 3D back in April 2013. They did a nice job with the conversion!

Sheraz - my screen is a 2.8 gain HP, over the next few weeks i'm sure you'll get good feedback from those running the new JVC's on large, unity gain screens.

Curtishd - I believe Kris is going to have the 665 + the RS500 at the same time on friday. If so, i'm sure he'll give us some info here on the thread.


The Spyder4pro got here much quicker than I expected, I'll have to give the new autocal software a try over the next few days. I'm mainly looking to fix 5-25 greyscale.
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Old 12-09-2015, 05:18 PM
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wow 6 gain ! thats amazing ! never heard of any such thing...
That is the rating, but when I tested a sample of the Vutec Silverstar against at Da-Lite High Power with rated 2.8 gain the peak gain of the Silverstar was lower. The High Power actually maxed out at about 3 on angle (from close to the light source) and I don't recall how much lower the peak on the Silverstar was, but do recall it was lower.

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Old 12-09-2015, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
You say you know there are issues with the pictures. If you know this then why do you want them? You aren't going to be able to see most of the differences within the pictures taken. It makes more sense if someone posted a summary, in words, of the differences they saw. The only area up for grabs would be "sharpness" in my opinion. This is kind of an ambiguous term that most people don't really know how to describe properly. Do you want to know which lens is better? Or do you want to know which image appears sharper? But more to this is how the image appears sharper because both projectors have forms of digital enhancement that can make the image appear sharper. In my experience, Reality Creation, in general, is more aggressive than it needs to be when you're feeding one of the Sony's 4K projectors a 1080p image. RC is far less aggressive when fed a 4K signal. With 1080p content there will be no clear winner and a recent German shootout of these two projectors showed that people couldn't really see that much difference in image detail with a 4K image sent to both projectors. With that said the JVC will have more brightness, higher on/off contrast (by a lot), can be calibrated to the same color accuracy as the Sony (but also has the ability to do P3 color which the Sony lacks), subjectively has better HDR due to the higher brightness and higher contrast (which is coming from reports of people who demo'ed both at CEDIA), and from what Zombie10k has shown in this thread has, by far, the best non-DLP 3D he's ever seen.
While I know a pic on here isn't the best way to determine PQ, it does have some benefits. With side by side images projected on a screen and one photo taken there have been instances where you could see the difference in the pic so why not take a pic and let people see if they see anything obvious with their own eyes. Plus I like pictures
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Old 12-09-2015, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Citation4444 View Post
The new firmware v130 for the LS10000 changes lumens, native contrast, e-shift, etc., all in a positive way, so that any review or impressions of one without this firmware is obsolete in that it is not indicative of current performance. Also, I have over 900 hrs on mine, and it exhibits no gamut shrinkage, gamma change, or contast reduction from when new.
How can a firmware update increase lumens and increase native contrast on any projector?

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Old 12-09-2015, 06:25 PM
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Thank you. I get your point. I actually watched a fair amount of content on my Projector. I believe a review suggested that on the order of watching the LS10k 4 hours a day on eco mode (30,000 hours) is equivalent to 20 years. There's a good chance I would replace it before then. HA!! I appreciate that many are focused on what they would consider the best projector for the money, and willing to accept some additional PQ maintenance items. I'm sort of in that camp also. I'm not sure you were able to read the reviews of the RS600 & LS 10k I posted. The reviews actually show the 2 quite comparable, with only a slight edge to the RS600. I was hoping for more conclusive comparisons from others.
Just some perspective... That's about 1000 hours per year. At that rate you're looking at having to replace a JVC lamp maybe once every 3-4 years.

Quote:
I do understand that the RS600 is basically the RS500 with higher quality parts, and thought I read that it also has an improved lens which can account for many increased benefits. In many cases I believe that the better parts basically make the better machine, all else being equal. However for the cost differential, the RS500 is quite compelling.
They are the same projector, same design, the higher specs and quality come from having hand picked parts (which presumably all come off the same assembly line). The reality of the RS600 (and every flagship JVC projector since they started offering different models) is the price premium you pay for the top model is largely for piece of mind. The spec difference between the RS500 and RS600 are within the margin of error or unit-to-unit variance. You could well get an RS500 that outperforms an RS600, though it's most likely they'd just be indistinguishable. I guess what I'm trying to say is don't confuse what JVC does with it's models with other manufacturers. Every model from Sony is a different design or different feature set. The VW665 has different features (notably the dynamic iris) that make it superior to the VW365. This is not the case with JVC, who's top model is only separated from it's little brother by a bit of extra quality control, which doesn't guarantee better performance, just increases the odds of getting a great unit.

Now that's not discounting the value of the extra warranty on the RS600, or the value of piece of mind knowing you probably have a top performing machine, and if someone makes that choice, no problem. Just make sure you make that choice knowing that you're buying better QC, not a "better" machine.

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Originally Posted by lancenell View Post
And there lies the dilemma. I'm in Spokane, WA and I'm not aware of anywhere to view these projectors in person. I only bring up the LS10k because an Epson rep came to Huppins to demostrate it. The sales guys (some which are tenured 20+ years) said it was one of the best projection systems they've ever seen. What does that really mean?
It's probably true, these are all great machines, it's really hard to buy a bad machine these days, but guy you talked to probably hasn't seen a JVC (almost certainly hasn't seen one of the new ones). I don't really have a problem with the Epson, other than they seem to want, based on the level of performance, basically a 100% price premium for the luxury of a laser light source. When I look at the equation, laser has benefits, but not $4000 worth of benefits. If you're going to "settle" (relatively) for the performance of the Epson, you can get that at a much lower cost than what Epson wants for it. And if you're willing to pay the price Epson wants, you can do a good deal better, especially now with the 2016 JVCs, which sound like about the biggest performance jump in JVCs line since maybe the original RS1.
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Old 12-09-2015, 06:27 PM
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How can a firmware update increase lumens and increase native contrast on any projector?
The brightness could be increased if they allowed the laser to output more power to the phosphor wheel, but I have serious doubts they've increased native contrast performance within the same light engine and micro-displays used before the firmware update. A great example of this is the new RS400 from JVC. They're using the same light engine as last year and they've increased the brightness. What happened? Native contrast went down. They had to make a new light engine with better wire grid polarizers to get better contrast performance while also increasing brightness.
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Old 12-09-2015, 06:51 PM
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On a semi-unrelated note, my Samsung Gear VR shipped today! Should arriving tomorrow for use with my Samsung Galaxy Note 5 smartphone. This should be fun to check out and I hope will hold me over until I get my RS500
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Old 12-09-2015, 07:04 PM
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zombie10k, what's the gain of your HP screen? I"m trying to compare and see what it'd look like if I were to get RS600 on a 145" 2.35 1.0 gain AT screen.
i ordered one for my 2.35 142" WIDE 1.0 gain screen and my math says it should be good. Craig made a very good suggestion that i invest $40 in the Dr. Meter light meter and measure what i have today. based on that and what everyone seems to be getting from their RS600s i think it is safe to say i will have more light. worth noting that i SHOULD have less light but once i measured what i really had i found that is was lower than what others had gotten from my projector. seems clear to me that my pj has developed issues. a few years ago i changed the bulb and it just never seemed to be as bright again but i figured it must be my imagination. now i suspect i developed a power supply issue and didnt know it.

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Old 12-09-2015, 07:40 PM
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How can a firmware update increase lumens and increase native contrast on any projector?
I guess one way is to drive the lasers harder at 100% and the same as before at 0%.
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Old 12-09-2015, 08:16 PM
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How can a firmware update increase lumens and increase native contrast on any projector?
I guess one way is to drive the lasers harder at 100% and the same as before at 0%.
That wouldn't be native on/off CR though.

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Old 12-09-2015, 08:17 PM
 
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i ordered one for my 2.35 142" WIDE 1.0 gain screen and my math says it should be good. Craig made a very good suggestion that i invest $40 in the Dr. Meter light meter and measure what i have today. based on that and what everyone seems to be getting from their RS600s i think it is safe to say i will have more light. worth noting that i SHOULD have less light but once i measured what i really had i found that is was lower than what others had gotten from my projector. seems clear to me that my pj has developed issues. a few years ago i changed the bulb and it just never seemed to be as bright again but i figured it must be my imagination. now i suspect i developed a power supply issue and didnt know it.

greg
Which one did you order? Link plz? I think its a good idea.
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Old 12-09-2015, 09:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Old 12-09-2015, 10:00 PM
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brand new for $75, not bad. hopefully it's a good one!
Based on what I've seen out there, that's an amazing deal (a steal!). Congrats… now go put it to good use!

Are you planning on taking your first white balance reads from the iD3 then comparing to the Spy4 to determine how good or bad (pretty cool I see you no longer have to go into the SM to set WB… couldn't stand that UP, DWN,LFT,RGHT… repeat 20 times till you get it right!! )?

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Old 12-09-2015, 10:19 PM - Thread Starter
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yes I definitely want to compare it first before using it. it's too late to dive into this tonight, I'll get an earlier start tomorrow night.
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Old 12-10-2015, 01:20 AM
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On a semi-unrelated note, my Samsung Gear VR shipped today! Should arriving tomorrow for use with my Samsung Galaxy Note 5 smartphone. This should be fun to check out and I hope will hold me over until I get my RS500
Please do comment on that, and which software or 360 / spherical live footage capture.
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Old 12-10-2015, 05:15 AM
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Which one did you order? Link plz? I think its a good idea.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005A0ETXY/...words=dr+light

i have an infocus 777 (going for the award for oldest pj to upgrade to an rs600) and it is rated at 3000lm and folks on the forum have had it calibrated to 1500 at d65 but when i called craig he said to get a meter and he would be surprised if i am getting what i think i have. said his lumis was low as i remember. so i got the meter and i was around 600. at least i know im not going blind.

a few years ago i noticed my vision was seeming blurry and decided i needed reading glasses so i went to the doc and he tested me and said it was really minor but he would get me a set for my computer. helped a little but still just wasnt good. then one day my wife comes in my office, sits at my desk and says "wow, how can you read these screens. they are so blurry". that was the last set of crt monitors i ever owned.

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http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005A0ETXY/...words=dr+light

i have an infocus 777 (going for the award for oldest pj to upgrade to an rs600) and it is rated at 3000lm and folks on the forum have had it calibrated to 1500 at d65 but when i called craig he said to get a meter and he would be surprised if i am getting what i think i have. said his lumis was low as i remember. so i got the meter and i was around 600. at least i know im not going blind.

a few years ago i noticed my vision was seeming blurry and decided i needed reading glasses so i went to the doc and he tested me and said it was really minor but he would get me a set for my computer. helped a little but still just wasnt good. then one day my wife comes in my office, sits at my desk and says "wow, how can you read these screens. they are so blurry". that was the last set of crt monitors i ever owned.

greg
Thx greg
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Old 12-10-2015, 07:09 AM
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Zombie, maybe I missed this but did you ever post the results of the 3D L/R ghosting test for your new JVC? I'd love to see it.

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Old 12-10-2015, 07:50 AM
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Kevin - thanks for the offer, I bought the import of the Art of Flight 3D back in April 2013. They did a nice job with the conversion!

Sheraz - my screen is a 2.8 gain HP, over the next few weeks i'm sure you'll get good feedback from those running the new JVC's on large, unity gain screens.

Curtishd - I believe Kris is going to have the 665 + the RS500 at the same time on friday. If so, i'm sure he'll give us some info here on the thread.


The Spyder4pro got here much quicker than I expected, I'll have to give the new autocal software a try over the next few days. I'm mainly looking to fix 5-25 greyscale.
Any reason you didn't go for the spyder 5 pro? It seems to me they are actually going cheaper than the spy4 at this point.
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Old 12-10-2015, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Any reason you didn't go for the spyder 5 pro? It seems to me they are actually going cheaper than the spy4 at this point.
Because it won't be supported for months, one would think

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Old 12-10-2015, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
I forgot about this movie. I just watched about 20 minutes skipping throughout the entire movie. It looks remarkable - the Sony has no chance against the JVC with this movie.

This is one of the most difficult 3D blurays for x-talk - the black against the white background is the hardest kind of x-talk to avoid.

I want to know how JVC did this. Sony would have to make a major change to compete with this kind of x-talk performance.




left eye through the glasses


Wow that looks great but i hope that the jvc x5000(so the cheapest model rom JVC this year) has the same great 3d.
I hope some can look in to this..
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Old 12-10-2015, 12:18 PM
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All of this talk of great 3D performance on the RS600, has made me go buy an RF emitter for my JVC. I have the IR emitter, but only two pair of IR glasses, but I have six pair of the RF glasses.
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Old 12-10-2015, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
All of this talk of 3D has made me go buy an RF emitter for my JVC. I have the IR emitter, but only two pair of IR glasses, but I have six pair of the RF glasses.
you need to stay away from these forums
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