Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 418 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!



Forum Jump: 
 2978Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #12511 of 15230 Old 12-11-2015, 09:17 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Kris Deering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Pacific Northwet
Posts: 8,400
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1344 Post(s)
Liked: 1970
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
I just finished watching a bunch of Exodus tonight on the RS600. It (and some other titles) looked so dynamic it had me thinking "who needs HDR?"
It may not even be a matter of needing it, the more I've talked with Darin and the Spectracal guys the less and less I think that we'll actually have any real benefit from HDR with projectors. Right now the only true benefit I could see is more of a technicality. If UHD Blu-ray does in fact make some kind of trapping where if you can't support HDR for titles released in that format you can't take advantage of the other benefits either (expanded gamut, higher bit depth, etc). With these projectors you can support HDR despite not being able to take advantage of pretty much ANY of the benefits it provides due to the limitations of light output, so you would get the benefits of the higher bit depth and gamut, which may be better than nothing. Again, this is hypothetical because we don't know what UHD Blu-ray will or won't allow you to do yet. Keep in mind though, we've already had more contrast capability with these projectors than HDR calls for, but we won't get any of the benefits the increased luminance will provide for colors and highlights, which is unfortunate as I think the color luminance is probably its biggest strength.
Hugo S and Manni01 like this.

My Home Theater
Technical Editor/Writer Sound and Vision Magazine
Kris Deering is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12512 of 15230 Old 12-11-2015, 09:20 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Kris Deering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Pacific Northwet
Posts: 8,400
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1344 Post(s)
Liked: 1970
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Careful with the Shield, I read it has issues when playing back 10bits videos. Can't find the link but will try. Looking forward to hearing the results, as unlike the Roku 4 the Shield is available here in the UK.

EDIT: looks like the Shield outputs RGB limited, which is a no no for HDR. Maybe it's changed, I'm sure the Spectracal guys have tested this. See:
https://forums.geforce.com/default/t...ycbcr-or-rgb-/
and:
https://forums.geforce.com/default/t...-evaluation/1/
EDIT2: Although apparently this isn't an issue anymore when connected to an HDMI 2.0a display like the JVCs as long as the HDMI UHD Color option is turned on. In that case, the Shield outputs 10-bit YCbCr 4:2:0 Rec-2020, which means it should be fine to send HDR content to the JVCs
See https://forums.geforce.com/default/t...43189/#4743189

Also some new videos allowing to compare the same footage in SDR and HDR have been posted in the HDR content thread here: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lc...l#post39649338

Some of these might get handy.



Hi Jason,

This looks good, but you should check the gamut too. This is where the Elite I tried was the most off. You might also want to check the absolute luminance, not just the RGB balance.

Looking forward to hearing about your experience with the new Autocal.

If it works as well as V5 with the X500, I think you'll be impressed

Please ask any question in the Autocal thread so that everyone can benefit.

I mentioned before that I couldn't get good results with HDR from the Roku 4. Last night I found the settings for enabling 10 bit output but this doesn't work with the Sony. I'm not sure what chroma resolution is from the Roku, but it would be 10 bit 60p, which I don't think the Sony supports. I think it is limited to 4:2:0 8 bit for 60p, so this could be an issue. I will see if the same issue persists tonight when hooked to the JVC, which has no issues with 10 bit 60p.

My Home Theater
Technical Editor/Writer Sound and Vision Magazine
Kris Deering is offline  
post #12513 of 15230 Old 12-11-2015, 09:33 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,687
Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2492 Post(s)
Liked: 1859
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
It may not even be a matter of needing it, the more I've talked with Darin and the Spectracal guys the less and less I think that we'll actually have any real benefit from HDR with projectors. Right now the only true benefit I could see is more of a technicality. If UHD Blu-ray does in fact make some kind of trapping where if you can't support HDR for titles released in that format you can't take advantage of the other benefits either (expanded gamut, higher bit depth, etc). With these projectors you can support HDR despite not being able to take advantage of pretty much ANY of the benefits it provides due to the limitations of light output, so you would get the benefits of the higher bit depth and gamut, which may be better than nothing. Again, this is hypothetical because we don't know what UHD Blu-ray will or won't allow you to do yet. Keep in mind though, we've already had more contrast capability with these projectors than HDR calls for, but we won't get any of the benefits the increased luminance will provide for colors and highlights, which is unfortunate as I think the color luminance is probably its biggest strength.

This has always been my main reason for going with an HDR compatible projector. If I can get all the other goodies (10bits, wider gamut) without HDR, then I'll likely disable it. Of course the big question is whether HDR10 will be helpful not only on UHD Bluray (for exemple with Dolby Vision titles) but also with other sources, as it might depend on what the UHD Alliance defines as the standard in January at CES.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I mentioned before that I couldn't get good results with HDR from the Roku 4. Last night I found the settings for enabling 10 bit output but this doesn't work with the Sony. I'm not sure what chroma resolution is from the Roku, but it would be 10 bit 60p, which I don't think the Sony supports. I think it is limited to 4:2:0 8 bit for 60p, so this could be an issue. I will see if the same issue persists tonight when hooked to the JVC, which has no issues with 10 bit 60p.
Yes, sure, but I was talking about the NVidia Shield as this is what you said the Spectracal guys were bringing to your house, presumably to check HDR on the JVC .
Kris Deering likes this.
Manni01 is offline  
post #12514 of 15230 Old 12-11-2015, 09:36 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Kris Deering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Pacific Northwet
Posts: 8,400
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1344 Post(s)
Liked: 1970
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Yes, sure, but I was talking about the NVidia Shield as this is what you said the Spectracal guys were bringing to your house, presumably to check HDR on the JVC .

They are, but it made me think more about the Roku and its issue. I'm hoping the limitation there was because of the Sony, so I'll be sure to let you guys know. I still can't get those other clips to work with that Sony player though, which I find baffling.
Manni01 likes this.

My Home Theater
Technical Editor/Writer Sound and Vision Magazine
Kris Deering is offline  
post #12515 of 15230 Old 12-11-2015, 09:46 AM
Senior Member
 
flyguyjake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 409
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 163 Post(s)
Liked: 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
With these projectors you can support HDR despite not being able to take advantage of pretty much ANY of the benefits it provides due to the limitations of light output, so you would get the benefits of the higher bit depth and gamut, which may be better than nothing.
Projectors currently are not or would never be capable of HDR high light output?

flyguyjake is offline  
post #12516 of 15230 Old 12-11-2015, 09:54 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Kris Deering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Pacific Northwet
Posts: 8,400
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1344 Post(s)
Liked: 1970
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyguyjake View Post
Projectors currently are not or would never be capable of HDR high light output?

Currently no. We are achieving levels that are in the 100-300 nit range for the most part, with very few exceptions (and most the time at the lower end of that scale). Considering that SDR material is mastered at 100 nits, we are really getting to the point that we are just meeting that spec. And that also comes with the caveat that we are decreasing CR to get those kinds of levels. Will we get to the 800-1000 nit range one day, maybe, but that would probably take a modular laser device or a dual bulb light cannon and I don't know how practical that would be (and never mind the expense). Unfortunately, HDR is truly geared to the flat panel world and that is where you'll see the main benefits of it.
flyguyjake likes this.

My Home Theater
Technical Editor/Writer Sound and Vision Magazine
Kris Deering is offline  
post #12517 of 15230 Old 12-11-2015, 09:55 AM
AVS Special Member
 
RonF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Sunny SoCal
Posts: 2,061
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 250 Post(s)
Liked: 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Thanks Manni, I definitely have a few questions about the workflow and will post them in your thread.

The Sony media player should be here today so I'm anxious to look at some of those HDR clips that Kris was viewing.

Kris - when you get a chance, can you please post which clips you and Darrin will be viewing on the JVC/Sony? I'd like to look at the same content so we have a frame of reference for the discussion. thanks!!
Jason you guys have me inspired that it may be possible to see NOW excellent HDR clips on these new s.o.t.a. projectors. You said you got a nice one for $130 and I go to Amazon to see what they sell for and it's whoa!! ... $698 new with comments averaging in the 3s for ratings. Anyway I then look in Amazon's used section and got a supposedly nice condition player for $135.

This one below, right? Did I do good? Will I be able to download files to my Mac Pro and then copy them to whatever USB or other device connects to the Sony media player?


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...ilpage_o00_s00
RonF is offline  
post #12518 of 15230 Old 12-11-2015, 10:04 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
stanger89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 20,625
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2112 Post(s)
Liked: 972
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Currently no. We are achieving levels that are in the 100-300 nit range for the most part, with very few exceptions (and most the time at the lower end of that scale). Considering that SDR material is mastered at 100 nits, we are really getting to the point that we are just meeting that spec. And that also comes with the caveat that we are decreasing CR to get those kinds of levels. Will we get to the 800-1000 nit range one day, maybe, but that would probably take a modular laser device or a dual bulb light cannon and I don't know how practical that would be (and never mind the expense). Unfortunately, HDR is truly geared to the flat panel world and that is where you'll see the main benefits of it.
Is no one talking about projectors having an overall lower output? It seems everyone is talking about content being mastered for a flat-panel-esque 100 nit nominal white and 1000 nit (or greater) peak white. I haven't seen any formal talk acknowledging that projectors are, and should be lower for both of those, just focusing on the fact that projectors can only do 100 nits peak. Shouldn't an HDR projector show nominal white more like 50 nits (16fL), which would still leave a decent amount for peak white at double or more that?

I'm just wondering because the only number I see in all these discussions is peak white, with seemingly no acknowledgement that the nominal white should be lower for projectors anyway. After all isn't the cinema standard for HDR 100 nits peak?
rak306 and Carbon Ft Print like this.
stanger89 is offline  
post #12519 of 15230 Old 12-11-2015, 10:08 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Kris Deering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Pacific Northwet
Posts: 8,400
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1344 Post(s)
Liked: 1970
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Is no one talking about projectors having an overall lower output? It seems everyone is talking about content being mastered for a flat-panel-esque 100 nit nominal white and 1000 nit (or greater) peak white. I haven't seen any formal talk acknowledging that projectors are, and should be lower for both of those, just focusing on the fact that projectors can only do 100 nits peak. Shouldn't an HDR projector show nominal white more like 50 nits (16fL), which would still leave a decent amount for peak white at double or more that?

I'm just wondering because the only number I see in all these discussions is peak white, with seemingly no acknowledgement that the nominal white should be lower for projectors anyway. After all isn't the cinema standard for HDR 100 nits peak?

I understand what you're saying, but that isn't how the content is created. It is made for displays that are brighter. Cinema HDR is graded FOR CINEMA PROJECTORS. We won't have that luxury.

My Home Theater
Technical Editor/Writer Sound and Vision Magazine
Kris Deering is offline  
post #12520 of 15230 Old 12-11-2015, 10:17 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
darinp2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,442
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1128 Post(s)
Liked: 1764
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyguyjake View Post
Projectors currently are not or would never be capable of HDR high light output?
They are if you are willing to make the image about 3' wide

There are projectors with much higher lumen levels, but they tend to have low on/off CR and as an HDR10 document makes clear, just making the images brighter doesn't make them HDR.

That is one of the problems with projectors since we don't have zones like some LCD TVs and can't make black be black with even a single white pixel like OLED can.

We are stuck with our on/off CRs for the whole screen, so even if you made the images 3' wide the black floor would go up too.

On the other hand, big images that fill our field of view don't necessarily need to be as bright. Dolby's own HDR projectors only got to 100 bits in their commercial theaters, but the content is mastered for that. Being a niche the odds of us getting HDR material mastered for projectors seems pretty slim, so we will do what we can with stuff mastered for much brighter.

I think the main advantage of HDR might be that the people mastering it will be looking at bright images with high CR and so might not leave as much garbage in our sources.

I also separate HDR out from 10 bit and WCG because DCI content has higher bit depth and WCG, but is SDR.

We should get plenty of content that is 10 bit and essentially P3, but not HDR. The reason being that there is plenty of material where that would not be modifying the content from its original intention like HDR is.

That is, converting older material to HDR is kind of like colorizing black and white movies, but making a version that is 10 bit and P3 from film and DCI content is not.

--Darin
Kris Deering, DavidHir and Manni01 like this.

Last edited by darinp2; 12-11-2015 at 10:31 AM.
darinp2 is offline  
post #12521 of 15230 Old 12-11-2015, 10:29 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
darinp2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,442
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1128 Post(s)
Liked: 1764
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Shouldn't an HDR projector show nominal white more like 50 nits (16fL), which would still leave a decent amount for peak white at double or more that?
We could do double, but I'm not sure how impressive that will end up being, since the standard for flat panels is a lot more than double, although I don't believe they actual define nominal white specifically and so it is more of a concept.

Current OLEDs only go to about 400 nits.

If we could go to 200 that might be impressive.

I was joking about having to go to 3' wide, but if a person could go to 8' wide, get 2.0 gain, and get 1500 lumens I calculate a white level of about 280 nits. I have a 92" wide 2.8 gain High Power that gives me maybe 2.2 to 2.4 gain to my main seating position. So looks like I could get over 300 nits if I calculated correctly.

--Darin

Last edited by darinp2; 12-11-2015 at 10:33 AM.
darinp2 is offline  
post #12522 of 15230 Old 12-11-2015, 10:45 AM
Senior Member
 
flyguyjake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 409
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 163 Post(s)
Liked: 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
We could do double, but I'm not sure how impressive that will end up being, since the standard for flat panels is a lot more than double, although I don't believe they actual define nominal white specifically and so it is more of a concept.

Current OLEDs only go to about 400 nits.

If we could go to 200 that might be impressive.

I was joking about having to go to 3' wide, but if a person could go to 8' wide, get 2.0 gain, and get 1500 lumens I calculate a white level of about 280 nits. I have a 92" wide 2.8 gain High Power that gives me maybe 2.2 to 2.4 gain to my main seating position. So looks like I could get over 300 nits if I calculated correctly.

--Darin
So would getting a higher gain screen maximize the projectors HDR potential or would this still be not applicable due to the mastering for flat panels exclusively? High gain screens introduce shimmering? I have a 135" Cima Neve 1.1 screen.

flyguyjake is offline  
post #12523 of 15230 Old 12-11-2015, 10:48 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
stanger89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 20,625
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2112 Post(s)
Liked: 972
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I understand what you're saying, but that isn't how the content is created. It is made for displays that are brighter. Cinema HDR is graded FOR CINEMA PROJECTORS. We won't have that luxury.
Oh, I understand that, my question was... Well actually maybe my new first question is then, what happens with HDR content on a projector? One interpretation of what I'm hearing is that content will be twice or more as bright with HDR as SR, just in general. Since it's mastered with nominal white at 100nit (30fL), that's twice as bright (or more) than how I've got my projector calibrated currently.

Back to my original question, shouldn't it be the case that you calibrate your projector, for HDR, so that normal white is still at 14-16fL (~50nits), thus basically compressing the whole range lower? This would have the side effect of opening up headroom for highlights on projectors.

I don't think I want nominal white to be 100nits/30fL. The scene from LOTR:TT where the exit Moria onto the snow-capped peaks would be painful at 30fL.

Which I guess comes back to my original question from when we first heard UHD would have HDR, how do you calibrate? Can you enter the peak white your setup is capable of somewhere? Can you lie and tell it it's brighter than it is, thus reducing the overall brightness so normal scenes don't require us to wear welding goggles?
lancenell likes this.
stanger89 is offline  
post #12524 of 15230 Old 12-11-2015, 10:48 AM
AVS Special Member
 
RonF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Sunny SoCal
Posts: 2,061
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 250 Post(s)
Liked: 251
I have a 500 coming with the projector module dead center in split level seating shooting to a recessed 8'5" wide 16x9 2.8 HP with multiple seats in that 2.8 area below, alongside and right above. One prime location like 8 inches directly below the lens.

Any ball park guesses in those 2.6-2.8 gain areas how many calibrated NITS will be available low and high lamp at D65? To use the raw horsepower of this screen with HDR as best processed and calibrated for these JVC's, is a HP owner still better off with HDR calibrated programming sacrificing lumens from high to low lamp, or open manual iris to more closed positions? Complete light control with dark surfaces.

Last edited by RonF; 12-11-2015 at 11:11 AM.
RonF is offline  
post #12525 of 15230 Old 12-11-2015, 11:04 AM
AVS Special Member
 
tigerfan33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,658
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 346 Post(s)
Liked: 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I mentioned before that I couldn't get good results with HDR from the Roku 4. Last night I found the settings for enabling 10 bit output but this doesn't work with the Sony. I'm not sure what chroma resolution is from the Roku, but it would be 10 bit 60p, which I don't think the Sony supports. I think it is limited to 4:2:0 8 bit for 60p, so this could be an issue. I will see if the same issue persists tonight when hooked to the JVC, which has no issues with 10 bit 60p.

I have a Sammy UHDTV 10 bit but the Roku 4 does not recognize it as 10 bit.
It does recognize 4K option.
Seems it is hit and miss as I've seen others report this as well.
tigerfan33 is offline  
post #12526 of 15230 Old 12-11-2015, 11:04 AM
AVS Special Member
 
d.j.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Denmark
Posts: 1,500
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 156 Post(s)
Liked: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
JVC and Sony are the only games in town.



The new models add full HDMI 2.0a and HDCP 2.2, and a DCI P3 filter, so they are ready for UHD Blu-ray.



No, NONE JVC is 4K. ( for now ).
d.j. is offline  
post #12527 of 15230 Old 12-11-2015, 11:06 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
darinp2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,442
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1128 Post(s)
Liked: 1764
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Back to my original question, shouldn't it be the case that you calibrate your projector, for HDR, so that normal white is still at 14-16fL (~50nits), thus basically compressing the whole range lower?
We could, but to do the ratios in that HDR properly peak white should probably be about 500 nits. That is assuming 1000 but content where the "nominal white" was about 100 nits.

So, most people will probably need to compress the rand between that nominal white and peak white, although as I mentioned I don't believe the standard defines a nominal white, just a curve up to the peak white.

As far as how we will calibrate them for the best trade offs I am thinking with the JVC calibration software. I'm thinking that a lot of time will be spent coming up with the best looking output curves.

--Darin
darinp2 is offline  
post #12528 of 15230 Old 12-11-2015, 11:14 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
darinp2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,442
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1128 Post(s)
Liked: 1764
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonF View Post
I have a 500 coming with the projector module dead center in split level seating shooting to a recessed 8'5" wide 16x9 2.8 HP with multiple seats in that 2.8 area below, alongside and right above. One prime location like 8 inches directly below the lens.

Any ball park guesses in those 2.6-2.8 gain areas how many calibrated NITS will be available low and high lamp at D65?
I'm not sure where low lamp is, but I'll just use 1200 lumens.

8.5' wide is about 38 square feet in 16:9.
1200 lumens divided be 38 square feet is about 31 ft-lamberts before gain
31 ftL time last 2.6 gain is about 82 ftL
82 divided by .292 is about 280 nits
Quote:
To use the raw horsepower of this screen with HDR as best processed and calibrated for these JVC's, is a HP owner still better off with HDR calibrated programming sacrificing lumens from high to low lamp, or open manual iris to more closed positions?
Not sure. It is going to be about trade offs. I'm concerned about going too bright and giving a lot of headroom for highlights making bright corners obvious in more scenes since doing that will raise the black floor for average images without making the rest of the pixels in those images brighter.

--Darin
RonF and Kris Deering like this.
darinp2 is offline  
post #12529 of 15230 Old 12-11-2015, 11:15 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Kris Deering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Pacific Northwet
Posts: 8,400
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1344 Post(s)
Liked: 1970
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Oh, I understand that, my question was... Well actually maybe my new first question is then, what happens with HDR content on a projector? One interpretation of what I'm hearing is that content will be twice or more as bright with HDR as SR, just in general. Since it's mastered with nominal white at 100nit (30fL), that's twice as bright (or more) than how I've got my projector calibrated currently.

Back to my original question, shouldn't it be the case that you calibrate your projector, for HDR, so that normal white is still at 14-16fL (~50nits), thus basically compressing the whole range lower? This would have the side effect of opening up headroom for highlights on projectors.

I don't think I want nominal white to be 100nits/30fL. The scene from LOTR:TT where the exit Moria onto the snow-capped peaks would be painful at 30fL.

Which I guess comes back to my original question from when we first heard UHD would have HDR, how do you calibrate? Can you enter the peak white your setup is capable of somewhere? Can you lie and tell it it's brighter than it is, thus reducing the overall brightness so normal scenes don't require us to wear welding goggles?

HDR isn't brighter than SDR. SDR is ALREADY mastered with a reference white at 100 nit, so you're already doing what you're alluding to.


When I went to Spectracal last week we had a demo with two Vizio 65" reference displays. The one on the left was calibrated to the Dolby Vision gold reference and came in at around 600 nits (or 800, I can't remember which one). They were showing Dolby Vision content on it. The one on the right was the same display but calibrated for SDR/709 at 100 nits (the standard). They would have the same content playing but from a Blu-ray (so Movie X in Dolby Vision 4K on the HDR screen and movie X in Blu-ray on the SDR screen). Immediately one would think the comparison wouldn't be fair because the HDR screen is calibrated to 600 nits, so of course it will look better, but the reality was the APL looked nearly identical. What wasn't identical was the luminance levels of the color in the image and the highlights. What HDR allows you to do is have more luminance in colors in the same APL range. You can't do that with SDR or projectors that support HDR because they don't have that overhead. So again, it makes it hard to realize any real benefits to HDR for projectors (even Stacey at Spectracal commented on the same thing and his concerns for it as he's a projector guy as well).


I suppose if it could map itself intelligently to your displays capability, even with the reduced range from projectors, there is a chance that you'd have a very small benefit, but remember light isn't linear, it is logarithmic. So the amount of overhead you have, even with the new brightness levels of the JVC, is still pretty tiny, especially when we're talking about color luminance.
henrich3, d.j. and Manni01 like this.

My Home Theater
Technical Editor/Writer Sound and Vision Magazine
Kris Deering is offline  
post #12530 of 15230 Old 12-11-2015, 11:31 AM
AVS Special Member
 
krichter1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chicagoland (Naperville)
Posts: 4,264
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1217 Post(s)
Liked: 1419
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
I ran a quick test with the Spyder 4 Pro vs. the D3 pro calibrated by Tom @ CP. I used the Spyder 4 software on a Thinkpad T510 laptop and let the software do it's thing to calibrated the screen to D65.

The software has a toggle to allow a before and after view. Once completed, I used the D3 pro to measure the calibrated screen. Results are in the 2nd photo which is quite good.


I have a few more tests to do but may give the auto-cal a shot and see how it does. i'm looking to tune 5-20 IRE which I can see by eye - don't need the meter to see red is a bit hot in this low range even though it's near perfect @ 30.

How far off was the Spy4 from the iD3?

Kevin

You only live once, but if you live it right, once is enough.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


==> The Richter Family 4K/3D Theater
krichter1 is online now  
post #12531 of 15230 Old 12-11-2015, 11:39 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,687
Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2492 Post(s)
Liked: 1859
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
HDR isn't brighter than SDR. SDR is ALREADY mastered with a reference white at 100 nit, so you're already doing what you're alluding to.


When I went to Spectracal last week we had a demo with two Vizio 65" reference displays. The one on the left was calibrated to the Dolby Vision gold reference and came in at around 600 nits (or 800, I can't remember which one). They were showing Dolby Vision content on it. The one on the right was the same display but calibrated for SDR/709 at 100 nits (the standard). They would have the same content playing but from a Blu-ray (so Movie X in Dolby Vision 4K on the HDR screen and movie X in Blu-ray on the SDR screen). Immediately one would think the comparison wouldn't be fair because the HDR screen is calibrated to 600 nits, so of course it will look better, but the reality was the APL looked nearly identical. What wasn't identical was the luminance levels of the color in the image and the highlights. What HDR allows you to do is have more luminance in colors in the same APL range. You can't do that with SDR or projectors that support HDR because they don't have that overhead. So again, it makes it hard to realize any real benefits to HDR for projectors (even Stacey at Spectracal commented on the same thing and his concerns for it as he's a projector guy as well).


I suppose if it could map itself intelligently to your displays capability, even with the reduced range from projectors, there is a chance that you'd have a very small benefit, but remember light isn't linear, it is logarithmic. So the amount of overhead you have, even with the new brightness levels of the JVC, is still pretty tiny, especially when we're talking about color luminance.

I agree.

This graph (which comes from the excellent SMPTE document linked in the Sound&Vision article I recently mentioned) might help to illustrate the difference between SDR and HDR depending on the target for peak white.

Also, it might help picture the difference between 1000nits and 10000nits, as discussed earlier. It won't be much. The highest curve is for 4000nits (the max for the Dolby Vision Pro Monitor that can be used for grading Dolby Vision content), so we have to extrapolate the 10000nits one.

It's a shame we (projector owners in dedicated, fully light controlled rooms) didn't get on UHD Bluray the 50nits reference 100nits peak white of commercial cinema for HDR, but that wouldn't have made any sense for the industry as it would have made zero difference for 90% of the market which is using flat panels in a living room already calibrated to 100nits (the standard for bluray), and not to 50nits as we do with projectors.

Again, HDR on projectors is likely at best a possible safety net in case all the other goodies are attached to HDR. If we can get 10bits + WCG without HDR, I'll certainly be testing this, as we might be able to get a higher dynamic range than with HDR on our projectors (just like resolving to 235 instead of 255 as per THX gives us a higher dynamic range / better contrast) with 99% of the content we watch vs elusive specular highlights.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	HDR Curves.JPG
Views:	126
Size:	46.6 KB
ID:	1113306  
Kris Deering likes this.

Last edited by Manni01; 12-11-2015 at 11:43 AM.
Manni01 is offline  
post #12532 of 15230 Old 12-11-2015, 11:41 AM
AVS Special Member
 
krichter1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chicagoland (Naperville)
Posts: 4,264
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1217 Post(s)
Liked: 1419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbon Ft Print View Post
Super White mode darkens the picture ... no matter what blu ray is watched. It's blu rays that are THX "certified" that are designed to show image detail in the luminance range 236 -255 ... that's why Super White is turned on with THX.


I see some calibrate by clipping white at 240 rather than 235 which is a compromise ... assuming blu rays show image content above 235.

EDIT: So the question is how important is it to see image content above 235? If you look at a 3D graph of the rec709 color space and look at what the colors look like above 235, colors look really, really washed out. I personally would like to see a brighter picture with a projector than to see washed out image detail above 235



JJ

Wow… I gotta say… I never knew that about THX certified discs!

Learm something new everyday (thanks JJ!).

Kevin

You only live once, but if you live it right, once is enough.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


==> The Richter Family 4K/3D Theater
krichter1 is online now  
post #12533 of 15230 Old 12-11-2015, 11:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Kris Deering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Pacific Northwet
Posts: 8,400
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1344 Post(s)
Liked: 1970
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbon Ft Print View Post
Super White mode darkens the picture ... no matter what blu ray is watched. It's blu rays that are THX "certified" that are designed to show image detail in the luminance range 236 -255 ... that's why Super White is turned on with THX.


I see some calibrate by clipping white at 240 rather than 235 which is a compromise ... assuming blu rays show image content above 235.

EDIT: So the question is how important is it to see image content above 235? If you look at a 3D graph of the rec709 color space and look at what the colors look like above 235, colors look really, really washed out. I personally would like to see a brighter picture with a projector than to see washed out image detail above 235



JJ

Where are you getting this info that THX certified discs have information above 235?? The reason THX certified displays (and their THX mode) doesn't clip at 235 is because the THX calibration program (and ISF) both stress that they will not clip any information. Other than some random test cases (think test patterns) I am not aware of any movies that have content above digital 235 except overshoots. I even went to a post-production mastering house and asked them about this and they said EVERY effort is made to keep all information at or below digital 235 (100 IRE and appropriately labeled REFERENCE white) and that anything above that would have been junk. So THX mastered discs shouldn't have anything above 235 either, and I would refute anyone who told you otherwise.


Now as for actually setting contrast on a display so it clips at digital 235, that is a bit tricky. The problem is that while white may be clipping at digital 235, your chroma channels may be clipping before that to achieve that white. So when I set my white point I look at an advanced pattern that shows you the clip points for all the primaries and secondaries to ensure no clipping in those channels. The Blu-ray test disc that Ted made is very good for this. I've seen some displays that are fine with clipping white at 235 for this but others have needed you to clip white at up to 240 for the same result.
d.j., Manni01 and ConnecTEDDD like this.

My Home Theater
Technical Editor/Writer Sound and Vision Magazine
Kris Deering is offline  
post #12534 of 15230 Old 12-11-2015, 12:04 PM
Member
 
lancenell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Spokane
Posts: 160
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 126 Post(s)
Liked: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

I suppose if it could map itself intelligently to your displays capability, even with the reduced range from projectors, there is a chance that you'd have a very small benefit, but remember light isn't linear, it is logarithmic. So the amount of overhead you have, even with the new brightness levels of the JVC, is still pretty tiny, especially when we're talking about color luminance.
Kris, The Epson LS10k has a spec of 1,500 Color Lumen output. They make a really big deal about this capability. Is it indeed a big deal & does it improve color performance, especially with higher color gamut 4K UHD material? I haven't noticed any other manufacturers present this spec. My question is whether this spec speaks to increased color luminance (you mentioned above) that is perhaps higher than other comparably price projectors, or whether it's just some sort of marketing ploy?
lancenell is offline  
post #12535 of 15230 Old 12-11-2015, 12:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
krichter1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chicagoland (Naperville)
Posts: 4,264
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1217 Post(s)
Liked: 1419
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonF View Post
Jason you guys have me inspired that it may be possible to see NOW excellent HDR clips on these new s.o.t.a. projectors. You said you got a nice one for $130 and I go to Amazon to see what they sell for and it's whoa!! ... $698 new with comments averaging in the 3s for ratings. Anyway I then look in Amazon's used section and got a supposedly nice condition player for $135.

This one below, right? Did I do good? Will I be able to download files to my Mac Pro and then copy them to whatever USB or other device connects to the Sony media player?


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...ilpage_o00_s00
That's the old one Ron (the puck which is essentially a paper weight now). I got my refurb'd OEM for $100 + 2 year SquareTrade extwarr for $30 (how Jason got his new for $130… like he got his Spy4 new for $75… behooves me! ).

Here's the one you want (but look on the Bay as well).

RonF likes this.

Kevin

You only live once, but if you live it right, once is enough.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


==> The Richter Family 4K/3D Theater
krichter1 is online now  
post #12536 of 15230 Old 12-11-2015, 12:40 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
DavidHir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 13,036
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1480 Post(s)
Liked: 1115
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
They are if you are willing to make the image about 3' wide

There are projectors with much higher lumen levels, but they tend to have low on/off CR and as an HDR10 document makes clear, just making the images brighter doesn't make them HDR.

That is one of the problems with projectors since we don't have zones like some LCD TVs and can't make black be black with even a single white pixel like OLED can.

We are stuck with our on/off CRs for the whole screen, so even if you made the images 3' wide the black floor would go up too.

On the other hand, big images that fill our field of view don't necessarily need to be as bright. Dolby's own HDR projectors only got to 100 bits in their commercial theaters, but the content is mastered for that. Being a niche the odds of us getting HDR material mastered for projectors seems pretty slim, so we will do what we can with stuff mastered for much brighter.

I think the main advantage of HDR might be that the people mastering it will be looking at bright images with high CR and so might not leave as much garbage in our sources.

I also separate HDR out from 10 bit and WCG because DCI content has higher bit depth and WCG, but is SDR.

We should get plenty of content that is 10 bit and essentially P3, but not HDR. The reason being that there is plenty of material where that would not be modifying the content from its original intention like HDR is.

That is, converting older material to HDR is kind of like colorizing black and white movies, but making a version that is 10 bit and P3 from film and DCI content is not.

--Darin
I've heard arguments that analog film (includes older movies) has much more dynamic range than we are seeing today and that HDR would simply being capturing that and not necessarily "remaking" it. Any thoughts on that? I've always been skeptical and I guess it might depend on just how it's done or accomplished.


DavidHir is online now  
post #12537 of 15230 Old 12-11-2015, 12:45 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
DavidHir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 13,036
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1480 Post(s)
Liked: 1115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I'll get to see the JVC tomorrow. Darin is bringing his RS500 and someone else is bringing a RS600. I changed the file name on the Exodus clip with no luck. The Sony doesn't even show it there. Tyler is bringing an Nvidia Shield so hoping that may work.
Great, I'd like to hear what the true contrast differences are between the RS500 and RS600.


DavidHir is online now  
post #12538 of 15230 Old 12-11-2015, 12:55 PM
Member
 
lancenell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Spokane
Posts: 160
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 126 Post(s)
Liked: 49
....and the visual contrast difference compared to the LS10000
lancenell is offline  
post #12539 of 15230 Old 12-11-2015, 01:00 PM
Advanced Member
 
rak306's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Syracuse NY
Posts: 694
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 364 Post(s)
Liked: 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Back to my original question, shouldn't it be the case that you calibrate your projector, for HDR, so that normal white is still at 14-16fL (~50nits), thus basically compressing the whole range lower? This would have the side effect of opening up headroom for highlights on projectors.
I totally agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
I don't think I want nominal white to be 100nits/30fL. The scene from LOTR:TT where the exit Moria onto the snow-capped peaks would be painful at 30fL.
LOTR:TT was painful enough without HDR.
beastaudio likes this.
rak306 is offline  
post #12540 of 15230 Old 12-11-2015, 01:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
gonzalc3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Bethesda, MD
Posts: 1,445
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 157 Post(s)
Liked: 141
Jason,


Have you been able to do some more testing with JVC's autocal?


Thanks,

Chris. My DVD UHD Blu Ray and Blu Ray collection
JVC DLA-X750R (calibrated with calman 5 and c6 hdr meter), ST 100 (100") screen, B&W 803D2s mains, B&W HTM2D2 center channel, B&W 805D2 surrounds, B&W CCMM682s in-ceiling speakers (4), B&W DB1 subwoofer, Marantz AV8802A preamp, Parasound Halo A51+(2xA21)+(2xA23) amps, Oppo BDP 103D player, Panasonic DMP-UB900 player, and Harmony Elite remote.
gonzalc3 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

Tags
Benq W7000 Home Projection System , Jvc Dla Rs55 Bundle , Jvc Dla Rs45 Home Theater Projector 1080p Hdmi , Epson V11h502020 Powerlite Home Cinema 3020e 2d And 3d 1080p Wireless Home Theater Projector , Sony Vpl Hw50es 3d Projector , Epson 5010 Powerlite Home Cinema 3d Front Projector , Epson Powerlite Home Cinema 3010 2d And 3d Projector V11h421020 , Panasonic Ptae8000u Hd Projector , Mitsubishi Hc7900dw Home Theater 3d Projector , Mitsubishi Hc8000dbl Dlp 3d Home Theater Projector With Spare Lamp 1300 Ansi 12 6 Lbs , Darbeevision Darblet Hdmi Video Processor , Epson 5020ub Powerlite Home Cinema 3d Front Projector
Gear in this thread

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off