Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 421 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 12-13-2015, 09:25 AM
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Darin's comment really underlines what an incredible bargain these new JVCs are, especially the RS400/RS500, for someone who wants not only fantastic Blu-Ray performance, but also wants to get a sizable advantage from 4K sources as well. This turned out to be an excellent move by JVC, to offer this broad a level of performance without adding a price premium. It becomes far harder to justify paying Sony native 4K prices at this point, which seems to be reflected in the purchasing decisions of quite a few people.

What will Sony's next move be, I wonder?
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Old 12-13-2015, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Darin's comment really underlines what an incredible bargain these new JVCs are, especially the RS400/RS500, for someone who wants not only fantastic Blu-Ray performance, but also wants to get a sizable advantage from 4K sources as well. This turned out to be an excellent move by JVC, to offer this broad a level of performance without adding a price premium. It becomes far harder to justify paying Sony native 4K prices at this point, which seems to be reflected in the purchasing decisions of quite a few people.

What will Sony's next move be, I wonder?
They'll have to fix their contrast issues and also increase contrast performance. If they want to beat JVC, who will most likely have a native 4K machine this time next year, will have to come a lot closer in contrast performance. They also need to include P3 support, higher bandwidth HDMI ports and up their 3D performance. I hope they can do it because without competition JVC isn't forced to innovate or bring us a product that excels substantially over the previous generation product.
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Old 12-13-2015, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Maybe I got lucky, but my RS600 is a very nice sample, I have no complaints about bright corners and the HP will make this stand out quite a bit if it's there.

I have about 20 hours of viewing time so far, I can say bar-none this is my favorite JVC to date. -13 on the iris in low lamp, the image has an almost 3D appearance, very dynamic picture quality. I spent hours last night going through Oblivion, Skyfall and some other 2D eye candy favorites after a 3D thrill ride from Ant-Man. I'm finally excited about front projection again after being desensitized by countless different projectors over the last few years.

not much has been said about eshift-4 yet but I was looking at this closely last night. I had approximately 6-7 different RS6710's here this year, the most recent a few weeks ago. Most know I wasn't a big fan of e-shift 2 and 3 but there is some redemption with e-shift 4 as I think it looks 'just right' so I'll give it the Goldilocks award after some tweaks using the p-analyzer. 4th time is a charm for both 3D and e-shift - go JVC!!

some may have missed this earlier - but I actually ended up watching Ant-Man 3D in LOW lamp. My eyes were strained with high lamp and I thought I could never get enough brightness in 3D to satisfy me. Wearing the RS600 as a 'helmut' (5-6 inches above eye level, near max gain on the 2.8HP) it looked remarkable in low lamp with my setup. I could have probably cranked down the iris a bit. the HP is dead.. long live the HP for 3D..
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Old 12-13-2015, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Both calibrated really well and required very little tweaking out of the box. Both were the same brightness after calibration (approx 1300 lumens or 30 fL in low lamp on my 1.0 gain 120" screen, aperture all the way open). The 600 had slightly better pixel focus but both were excellent in this regard. Convergence wasn't an issue with either projector. Both had some noticeable spires from white lettering on a black background. The 500 had really bad bright corners in two of its corners, probably the worst I've ever seen from a projector. The 600 was much better in this regard. They were still noticeable and higher than any JVC I've ever owned, but they weren't anywhere near as distracting as the 500.

On another note, we checked the P3 coverage in the "Reference" color setting. In low lamp they cover 98% of the gamut, in high lamp it was like 99.5%, so JVC nailed it. The guy from Spectracal that was there said that was better than a lot of the studio monitors they measure. For comparison the Sony 665 was like 86% I believe.
Thanks Kris.

So in regards to the RS500 and bright corners was it at all distracting with regular movie watching?

Also did you guys get a chance to compare the RS500 vs RS600 with Iris all way or almost all way down (with and without DI engaged) to check the black levels on each and how they compare (ie on black screen or dark content etc.) ?

Wondering in regards to black corners if one moves their pj back (ie using less lens) if black corner effect gets reduced?
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Old 12-13-2015, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post
Well, since Kris opened the door for discussion. I'll share my thoughts.
First, I hadn't been to Kris' place since he installed an Atmos sound system.
Wow. I'm sold.
Also, Steve brought a rum cake that his lovely wife made. I had 3 slabs. F'ing fantastic.
My impressions will focus mainly on the RS600 and VW665.
I'll be brief, to my eye it wasn't really much of a contest.
The RS600 will likely be my next projector even though I haven't ever spent that kind of coin on a display.
Combine the sharpness, contrast, ease of calibration, available brightness plus non-quantitatively the RS600 throws a stunning image and made me forget about waiting for 4k.
Throw in the price differential and fuggetaboutit.

Thanks to Kris and everyone for an educational & enjoyable evening.
Just for the record, I'm not a fanboy of any company unless they provide the best value for my money.
I have purchased gear from both Sony and JVC and have been happy with both.
Thanks for taking the time to post your feedback!
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Old 12-13-2015, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Maybe I got lucky, but my RS600 is a very nice sample, I have no complaints about bright corners and the HP will make this stand out quite a bit if it's there.

I have about 20 hours of viewing time so far, I can say bar-none this is my favorite JVC to date. -13 on the iris in low lamp, the image has an almost 3D appearance, very dynamic picture quality. I spent hours last night going through Oblivion, Skyfall and some other 2D eye candy favorites after a 3D thrill ride from Ant-Man. I'm finally excited about front projection again after being desensitized by countless different projectors over the last few years.

not much has been said about eshift-4 yet but I was looking at this closely last night. I had approximately 6-7 different RS6710's here this year, the most recent a few weeks ago. Most know I wasn't a big fan of e-shift 2 and 3 but there is some redemption with e-shift 4 as I think it looks 'just right' so I'll give it the Goldilocks award after some tweaks using the p-analyzer. 4th time is a charm for both 3D and e-shift - go JVC!!

some may have missed this earlier - but I actually ended up watching Ant-Man 3D in LOW lamp. My eyes were strained with high lamp and I thought I could never get enough brightness in 3D to satisfy me. Wearing the RS600 as a 'helmut' (5-6 inches above eye level, near max gain on the 2.8HP) it looked remarkable in low lamp with my setup. I could have probably cranked down the iris a bit. the HP is dead.. long live the HP for 3D..
Patiently awaiting on my RS500!! No word as of yet on when my unit will arrive. It seems AVScience is getting first dibs at these units. Unfortunately for me, I live in New York (where AVScience is located) and I didn't want to have to pay 8% tax on it so I decided to go with a different dealer. I wanted to save some money and now I'm paying the price (pun intended) by having to wait.
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Old 12-13-2015, 10:14 AM
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You bet.
I know my feedback won't be specific enough or have enough numbers but I didn't take notes and Kris can provide the real specs that people here want.
I related what I look for in regards to the performance\price ratio and a qualitative POV.

I've seen every JVC that Kris has owned and some that he hasn't in his room.
Although every gen was a pretty good step up this time is a real nice time to buy if you're in the market.
I did hear some mention from the guys that the latest gen DI was far less aggressive than previous implementations almost to point of being a non-factor.

On the Sony, one very dark clip from Godzilla induced some very noticeable pumping from the DI.

They fed 4k material to the RS600 & the Sony and froze a particular frame. Although it was very close, the consensus was that the JVC was sharper on some details.
Several people were like 4" from the screen which isn't real-life but I was in the rear seating row and there were scenes where I could tell the difference and others where there were slight differences
but different doesn't mean better either way.
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Old 12-13-2015, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
They'll have to fix their contrast issues and also increase contrast performance. If they want to beat JVC, who will most likely have a native 4K machine this time next year, will have to come a lot closer in contrast performance. They also need to include P3 support, higher bandwidth HDMI ports and up their 3D performance. I hope they can do it because without competition JVC isn't forced to innovate or bring us a product that excels substantially over the previous generation product.
Agreed. I'm really hoping Epson steps up their game next year too with native 4K and improved contrast.


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Old 12-13-2015, 11:20 AM
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not much has been said about eshift-4 yet but I was looking at this closely last night. I had approximately 6-7 different RS6710's here this year, the most recent a few weeks ago. Most know I wasn't a big fan of e-shift 2 and 3 but there is some redemption with e-shift 4 as I think it looks 'just right' so I'll give it the Goldilocks award after some tweaks using the p-analyzer. 4th time is a charm for both 3D and e-shift - go JVC!
Manni and I have gone round and round multiple times about basically a position he took awhile ago about the RS400 being a downgrade product from the RS4910 and his continuing to find ways to make it look like he was right that the RS400 isn't an upgrade from the RS4910.

Anybody now want to consider the position I took a while ago that the RS400 might even be a better product overall than the RS6710?

I expect that much of what we are discussing here would apply to it too, but the brighter corners issue might be better, although with worse CR in at least the center of the screen. Of course it is missing P3, but I can't think of anything else where it is going to be worse. I know it doesn't have all the new wire grid polarizers (just one upgraded in the RS400 from the RS4910 from what I was told), but I'm not sure how much difference that is making.

With time I'm sure we'll getting a better handle on the differences when stepping up models this year, but if e-shift and/or HDR are the biggest improvements then it is nice that they come in all 3 models.

--Darin
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Old 12-13-2015, 11:27 AM
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Thanks Kris.

So in regards to the RS500 and bright corners was it at all distracting with regular movie watching?
With as bad as Kris described the bright corners on the 500 they had, I am wondering this as well. Like others have mentioned, I have had bright corners on all 3 (RS1, RS40, RS45) of the JVCs I have owned and have always considered them a complete and total non issue since I almost never (except a total fade to black which are very rare) see them watching real material.
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Old 12-13-2015, 11:31 AM
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I have an RS4810 and I have not tried the paper test yet (but will out of sheer curiosity), but I cannot see even a hint of bright corners with an all black image. Not a trace. My room is also painted/carpeted black with a Stewart ST100 screen.


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Old 12-13-2015, 11:36 AM - Thread Starter
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The DI is a double edge sword. I thought it was too aggressive last gen. This time it's less aggressive and i'm ok with that since the native contrast is a league above the best Sony can offer today.

let's put it like this. the JVC doesn't need the DI and the Sony definitely does to try and be competitive. But then the obvious pumping as it tries to figure out what to do with certain scenes.

with -13 on the iris last night while watching Oblivion, it's the first time I thought about skipping my masking project. black bars were dark enough not to be a distraction.

I'm still a little overwhelmed with the 3D - Maybe Gary B in the UK can help explain how they improved it so much this year. Sony and Epson are going to have to figure out how they did it too.
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Old 12-13-2015, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
I have an RS4810 and I have not tried the paper test yet (but will out of sheer curiosity), but I cannot see even a hint of bright corners with an all black image. Not a trace. My room is also painted/carpeted black with a Stewart ST100 screen.
I don't recall which projector this was from, likely my old RS50 or the first RS55 which I ended up swapping out.

remember what has been seen - cannot be un-seen..

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Old 12-13-2015, 11:43 AM
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So long as I could not see a hint of them from my viewing/seating position, I would not care - same goes for convergence and focus...actually, that is true for any artifact.
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Old 12-13-2015, 11:44 AM
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The DI is a double edge sword. I thought it was too aggressive last gen. This time it's less aggressive and i'm ok with that since the native contrast is a league above the best Sony can offer today.
The issue I have with the DI on the JVC this year is that last year people who were bothered by it could turn it off. Now the choices seem to be off and almost off.

Seems a little bit like if I ordered a bacon cheeseburger and it came out with the bacon a little uncooked, then when informed they just took the bacon off as if that fixed the problem.

I wish I could get a crack at the DI algorithms.

--Darin
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Old 12-13-2015, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
The issue I have with the DI on the JVC this year is that last year people who were bothered by it could turn it off. Now the choices seem to be off and almost off.

Seems a little bit like if I ordered a bacon cheeseburger and it came out with the bacon a little uncooked, then when informed they just took the bacon off as if that fixed the problem.

I wish I could get a crack at the DI algorithms.

--Darin
I wish there was some kind of open source program users could use and make alterations to if they want to update/change how the dynamic iris worked. I'm sure that a team effort of highly skilled people here on the forum could out program a dynamic iris a single person or small team could over at JVC, Sony, Runco, ect.
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Old 12-13-2015, 12:01 PM
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Some thoughts re above posts:

1. I would love it to be able to dispense with masking panels when I switch to the RS600, since I use a side panel for 16x9, and a bottom panel when zooming for 2.35. (Showing my laziness!)

2. Re bright corners: I sit quite close to a large HP2.4 screen, and sometimes I've felt that the corners were a bit dark, presumably because the HP's viewing cone is small. So having bright corners might be just what I need to have more uniform brightness over the whole screen.
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Old 12-13-2015, 12:14 PM
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2. Re bright corners: I sit quite close to a large HP2.4 screen, and sometimes I've felt that the corners were a bit dark, presumably because the HP's viewing cone is small. So having bright corners might be just what I need to have more uniform brightness over the whole screen.
The problem is that they are really only brighter like this compared to black. For instance, if one corner is 3 times brighter than the center in a full black image it will still be about the same as the center for 10% video level and above.

If the multiplier from center to corner was as high on a white screen as it is in some of the black screens it would be a very obvious artifact, like it is when putting a piece of paper in front of the projector and hitting hide.

On white it is probably more likely that the center is brighter than the corners.

--Darin
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Old 12-13-2015, 12:16 PM
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Darin,

Are you noticing your brighter corners on darker content?


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Old 12-13-2015, 12:25 PM
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Are you noticing your brighter corners on darker content?
Yes, but I'm staying under the 4 hours and was trying to characterize it, so only have so much time for real content.

Mine is bad enough that it is visible on a 4x4 checkerboard of 5% video on black, like on the 2nd edition of the Spears and Munsil disk.

I need to check the interrogation scene in Oblivion on my OLED to try to figure out how it is encoded and how it looks to my eyes there, since it looked like much of the outside of the image around Morgan Freeman was brighter than near him even on the RS600, where the brighter corners were better than this RS500.

For those with a 2.35:1 screen considering using an anamorphic lens or not, going without might help with this issue if you have it.

--Darin
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Old 12-13-2015, 12:27 PM
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Yes, but I'm staying under the 4 hours and was trying to characterize it, so only have so much time for real content. I need to check the interrogation scene in Oblivion on my OLED to try to figure out how it is encoded and how it looks to my eyes there, since it looked like much of the outside of the image around Morgan Freeman was brighter than near him even on the RS600, where the brighter corners were better than this RS500.

For those with a 2.35:1 screen considering using an anamorphic lens or not, going without might help with this issue if you have it.

--Darin
I have a 2:35 screen and zoom which I too would think would help, but with 16x9 content I wonder.


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Old 12-13-2015, 12:40 PM
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"not much has been said about eshift-4 yet but I was looking at this closely last night. I had approximately 6-7 different RS6710's here this year, the most recent a few weeks ago. Most know I wasn't a big fan of e-shift 2 and 3 but there is some redemption with e-shift 4 as I think it looks 'just right' so I'll give it the Goldilocks award after some tweaks using the p-analyzer. 4th time is a charm for both 3D and e-shift - go JVC!!"

Jason have you said yet where you are running each MPC slider so far...... before doing the P-Analyzer checks ...... In 2D and 3D? It's funny with my seating set up so different than most I too have one lowest and most comfortable seat where my head like yours is 6-8" below the lens which is centered itself on the 8'5" wide 16x9 2.8 HP. Woo hoo for the manual iris!
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Old 12-13-2015, 01:31 PM
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Flashlighting on an LCD tv is considered a flaw and points deducted on reviews. Many buyers would exchange the set. How is bright corners not considered a similar flaw since most non-jvc projectors don't have it. If bright corners is typical in JVC projectors, why did they not go out of their way to resolve the issue in these newest models?

Has JVC spoken directly on this issue? What is their position?

If the picture quality from the 665 and the RS600 is nearly identical, why would someone choose a projector with bright corners over one without?

Can the difference between an 8-bit image projected (665) and a 10-bit image projected (rs600) been seen from a seated viewing distance? Has anyone tested to verify if the RS600 is in fact projecting a 10-bit image?

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Old 12-13-2015, 01:32 PM
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Manni and I have gone round and round multiple times about basically a position he took awhile ago about the RS400 being a downgrade product from the RS4910 and his continuing to find ways to make it look like he was right that the RS400 isn't an upgrade from the RS4910.

Anybody now want to consider the position I took a while ago that the RS400 might even be a better product overall than the RS6710?

I expect that much of what we are discussing here would apply to it too, but the brighter corners issue might be better, although with worse CR in at least the center of the screen. Of course it is missing P3, but I can't think of anything else where it is going to be worse. I know it doesn't have all the new wire grid polarizers (just one upgraded in the RS400 from the RS4910 from what I was told), but I'm not sure how much difference that is making.

With time I'm sure we'll getting a better handle on the differences when stepping up models this year, but if e-shift and/or HDR are the biggest improvements then it is nice that they come in all 3 models.

--Darin
I suspect you may be right about the RS400 (550). I've had one in my HT for a week now and I'm very impressed with it. I've got a 500 (750) coming and I'll compare the two (I may switch the 750 out for a 950 if the bright conners thing seems to be a major issue with the 750, although it seems some of the 600s (950s) have that issue as well).

I can't see any of this years JVCs being a step backwards -- the 3D for this year is a major improvement (which you forgot to mention in your post) and these things are now very bright with best in class on/off contrast. I'm watching my 400 (550) in 3D on low lamp with the manual iris at -11, which is unheard of with any of my other projectors (this on my 9' wide HP screen). If, as you have stated, I won't be able to tell the difference when shown 4K on the Sony (true 4K panels) and the JVC (e-shift 4K) from six feet or more out from the screen then I don't care -- I don't and wouldn't want to sit this close.

I should add -- I had a short discussion with JVC's Canadian product manager about when we could expect both laser and 4k panels in JVC products. He basically said that JVC can do this, but if they do, it will put their products out of the reach of most consumers price wise. JVC wants to make the best affordable projectors on the market. It's actually pretty amazing that Epson has such a good laser projector for $8,000. If you want laser you have to be prepared to pay a high premium for it, whether it's an Epson, a future JVC or a Sony.
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Old 12-13-2015, 01:35 PM
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If the picture quality from the 665 and the RS600 is nearly identical, why would someone choose a projector with bright corners over one without?
Well, the RS600 has 4-6 times the native contrast of the 665, is half the price, does full P3, and doesn't have contrast that degrades significantly over time. Not a bad reason, huh?
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Old 12-13-2015, 01:39 PM
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Can the difference between an 8-bit image projected (665) and a 10-bit image projected (rs600) been seen from a seated viewing distance? Has anyone tested to verify if the RS600 is in fact projecting a 10-bit image?

RS500/600 are 12 bit confirmed by Kris.
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Old 12-13-2015, 01:42 PM
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Flashlighting on an LCD tv is considered a flaw and points deducted on reviews. Many buyers would exchange the set. How is bright corners not considered a similar flaw since most non-jvc projectors don't have it. If bright corners is typical in JVC projectors, why did they not go out of their way to resolve the issue in these newest models?

Has JVC spoken directly on this issue? What is their position?

If the picture quality from the 665 and the RS600 is nearly identical, why would someone choose a projector with bright corners over one without?
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Well, the RS600 has 4-6 times the native contrast of the 665, is half the price, does full P3, and doesn't have contrast that degrades significantly over time. Not a bad reason, huh?
Sony's 4K projectors also have bright corners. But because of their deficit in contrast (compared to a JVC) they aren't as easily visible. Has Sony commented directly on the issue either?

As I've already stated several times now in this and other threads, bright corners are not some type of pitfall that only effects JVC DiLA panels, but ALL lcos panels. They are caused by slightly bowed corners during manufacturing. It is extremely difficult to make the panels perfectly flat and this is what causes the slight non-uniformity at the corners and as such "bright" corners are seen.
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Old 12-13-2015, 01:45 PM
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Sony's 4K projectors also have bright corners. But because of their deficit in contrast (compared to a JVC) they aren't as easily visible. Has Sony commented directly on the issue either?
I don't suspect Sony will comment on the issue, Seegs. It took a class action lawsuit to get them to comment on the SXRD RPTV panel degradation.

As I mentioned before, I cannot see any bright cornering on my 4810. I am going to try the paper test later, but perhaps it's since my unit doesn't have the native contrast of the RS500/600. Anecdotal so far, but it seems they are worse on the RS500 from the reports.


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Old 12-13-2015, 01:49 PM
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I don't suspect Sony will comment on the issue, Seegs. It took a class action lawsuit to get them to comment on the SXRD RPTV panel degradation.

As I mentioned before, I cannot see any bright cornering on my 4810. I am going to try the paper test later, but perhaps it's since my unit doesn't have the native contrast of the RS500/600. Anecdotal so far, but it seems they are worse on the RS500 from the reports.
That was kind of my point. Neither will comment on it. I don't understand why there's all of a sudden been interest in bright corners? This has been an issue on literally every single LCoS projector. Why do people have their panties in a collective bunch all of a sudden? Do they they think this is a new issue or something?
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Old 12-13-2015, 01:56 PM
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That was kind of my point. Neither will comment on it. I don't understand why there's all of a sudden been interest in bright corners? This has been an issue on literally every single LCoS projector. Why do people have their panties in a collective bunch all of a sudden? Do they they think this is a new issue or something?
I suspect maybe it's because they were never noticeable with content before and in some cases now they are. I wonder if the new light engine in the RS500/600 plays any factor in this?
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