Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 424 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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Old 12-14-2015, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
+1 - Every projector I have here has it's own it's unique issues, even the 25K VW1100.

when comparing the Sony and JVC brightness matched in low lamp, the native contrast difference becomes quite obvious in certain scenes. there are a number of FTB scenes in Oblivion and the JVC does a noticeably better job handling these than the Sony where the iris is bouncing around trying it's best to compete with the high native on the JVC. turn the iris off and clamp both projectors down to the same light level and the black floor on the JVC is much more convincing.

comparing 1080P content with RC vs. e-shift4 is an entire discussion into itself with some surprising results I'll be discussing in detail later.
This is the one I've been looking forward to, zombie - thanks in advance. Btw, how do bright scenes in your 600 look...still similar with previous models?
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Old 12-14-2015, 11:10 PM
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Zombie, how is the flicker situation in 3D with the 600? Previous JVC's gave me headache.
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Old 12-14-2015, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post
It must have been a looong day debugging Cobol code (my brain… she is mush!), but I literally read this post like five times when I was left with…
Sorry. Not sure if this will help.

Here is an article by SoulNight from here where it shows graphs where on/off CR is on the left edge, ANSI CR is on the right edge, and in between are a bunch of intra-image CRs for different patterns:

http://projectiondream.com/en/contra...r-environment/

The DI doesn't help ANSI CR because the ANSI CR test is a test of a 4x4 checkerboard of white and black, where the DI doesn't close.

The DI does help the CRs between say a 5% window and black (the intra-image CR between those 2) on a test pattern with just those 2 because the DI can close and the projector can modify the signal.

As a simple example, if a 5% window would be 0.1 nits and black 0.01 nits with the DI off (for 10:1 intra-image CR) the DI system could close the iris down so that half the light was blocked. This would take both to half their values, but the projector could just tell the chips to put out twice as much light for the 5% window so it was still at .1 nits off the screen, but the black would now be about 0.005 nits off the screen, for 20:1 intra-image CR.

The CR for a 5% window on black is most affected by the on/off CR with the projectors we normally discuss since 5% video should be about 1/500th of white. So, even if you had a great 500:1 ANSI CR, if that was also the on/off CR then the black floor would be where you would like to put the 5% video level. So, very little CR between 5% video level and black.

The JVCs can do 20:1 or higher with a checkerboard of 5% video and black because they have high on/off CR, not because they have high ANSI CR.

I measured a 5%/0% 4x4 checkerboard on a JVC RS400 tonight and with the iris open and DI disabled I got 23:1. Enabling the DI increased that to 67:1. Starting with the iris at -15 resulted in 33:1 and that wouldn't change with the DI enabled because the DI doesn't close any further for that pattern if the manual position is set to -15.

Did I confuse you even more?

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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Old 12-15-2015, 12:14 AM
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I hope Manni won't be mad at me for bringing the news instead of him, but Madshi has released a new madVR build with new HDR features http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...26#post1749826
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Old 12-15-2015, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Elix View Post
I hope Manni won't be mad at me for bringing the news instead of him, but Madshi has released a new madVR build with new HDR features http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...26#post1749826
Not mad, just busy. Note that this doesn't help to test the HDR mode of the new JVCs (or any HDR display), which is why I didn't mention it here. It converts HDR content and displays it on any display, SDR or HDR, using a standard gamma, not a PQ gamma. It has a max display luminance option which is very handy to get the best possible conversion from HDR10 content. Seems to be working fine if you want to see what HDR looks like with test files.

Of course it won't help to play UHD Bluray, at least until the AACS 2.0 encryption is broken. You also need a recent nightly build of LAV filters 0.67 to get it to work, and you need to be in FSE mode to get 10bits.

It's also useful to display the HDR information from the metadata in the file using CTRL-J, for example the Exodus and Life of Pi clips seem to have been mastered to 1200nits peak white.

Details mostly OT here, so better to post in the Doom9 thread for any technical questions...
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Old 12-15-2015, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
I measured a 5%/0% 4x4 checkerboard on a JVC RS400 tonight and with the iris open and DI disabled I got 23:1. Enabling the DI increased that to 67:1. Starting with the iris at -15 resulted in 33:1 and that wouldn't change with the DI enabled because the DI doesn't close any further for that pattern if the manual position is set to -15.

--Darin
Darin,
Is this considered a good result? Have you had a chance to do the same measurement on you 500?

Thanks very interesting (as was the link you provided).
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Old 12-15-2015, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Maybe I got lucky, but my RS600 is a very nice sample, I have no complaints about bright corners and the HP will make this stand out quite a bit if it's there.
Not even visible in something like the Oblivion interrogation scene? In that case, I think most would be satisfied.
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Old 12-15-2015, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
I took the paper test to my RS4810 last night out of just sheer curiosity - and yes, the bright areas show on the paper. However, I cannot even see a hint of them on an all black image on my screen. And that's all that matters at the end of the day.
Can you share a picture? I'm trying to correlate how bad the paper test needs to be before we start seeing the problem on the screen. Unfortunately, I didn't take any pictures of the RS57 I had which failed paper test but was perfectly uniform on the screen - similar to your experience.
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Old 12-15-2015, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
I measured a 5%/0% 4x4 checkerboard on a JVC RS400 tonight and with the iris open and DI disabled I got 23:1. Enabling the DI increased that to 67:1. Starting with the iris at -15 resulted in 33:1 and that wouldn't change with the DI enabled because the DI doesn't close any further for that pattern if the manual position is set to -15.
How did the corners look and thoughts on the projector in general?
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Old 12-15-2015, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
Can you share a picture? I'm trying to correlate how bad the paper test needs to be before we start seeing the problem on the screen. Unfortunately, I didn't take any pictures of the RS57 I had which failed paper test but was perfectly uniform on the screen - similar to your experience.
First, you would have to correlate a standard for taking the test. These are both from my projector. Iris setting and distance makes a huge difference. One is with manual iris open and against the lens. The second is with manual iris closed all the way and paper 4" away from the lens. Both were done in low lamp. The second one is very close to how I use my projector, since I use it with a -12 setting. So what looks like bad bright corners when against the lens is mostly gone, by the time the image has traveled 4". I held the copy paper vertically, so the larger image is still pretty small, less than 8.5" wide.
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Old 12-15-2015, 08:11 AM
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Might I suggest that if you need to use paper to see bright corners, there really is no need to do the paper test.


I only ever noticed bright corners with my X500 when the OPPO screen saver was up. Never noticed in any real world content, including some seriously dark scenes in GOT and Oblivion.

It's always in the last place you look.
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Old 12-15-2015, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
Sorry. Not sure if this will help.

Here is an article by SoulNight from here where it shows graphs where on/off CR is on the left edge, ANSI CR is on the right edge, and in between are a bunch of intra-image CRs for different patterns:

http://projectiondream.com/en/contra...r-environment/

The DI doesn't help ANSI CR because the ANSI CR test is a test of a 4x4 checkerboard of white and black, where the DI doesn't close.

The DI does help the CRs between say a 5% window and black (the intra-image CR between those 2) on a test pattern with just those 2 because the DI can close and the projector can modify the signal.

As a simple example, if a 5% window would be 0.1 nits and black 0.01 nits with the DI off (for 10:1 intra-image CR) the DI system could close the iris down so that half the light was blocked. This would take both to half their values, but the projector could just tell the chips to put out twice as much light for the 5% window so it was still at .1 nits off the screen, but the black would now be about 0.005 nits off the screen, for 20:1 intra-image CR.

The CR for a 5% window on black is most affected by the on/off CR with the projectors we normally discuss since 5% video should be about 1/500th of white. So, even if you had a great 500:1 ANSI CR, if that was also the on/off CR then the black floor would be where you would like to put the 5% video level. So, very little CR between 5% video level and black.

The JVCs can do 20:1 or higher with a checkerboard of 5% video and black because they have high on/off CR, not because they have high ANSI CR.

I measured a 5%/0% 4x4 checkerboard on a JVC RS400 tonight and with the iris open and DI disabled I got 23:1. Enabling the DI increased that to 67:1. Starting with the iris at -15 resulted in 33:1 and that wouldn't change with the DI enabled because the DI doesn't close any further for that pattern if the manual position is set to -15.

Did I confuse you even more?

--Darin

Much better thanks! (not sure if it was my brain or your beanie spinning at too high a rate last night… but we'll go with mine!)

Kevin

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Old 12-15-2015, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
How did the corners look and thoughts on the projector in general?
You may be able to see a little bit of brighter green in the picture I attached, but it turned out to almost all be outside of the actual image area. When I measured just inside to try to get just the image area everything was within 10% of the center on black with the iris open, with one corner being dimmer than the center.

With the iris closed the brighter part measured about 40% higher than the center when trying to get just inside the image and not measure the border instead.

This one had pretty good convergence and no stuck on or dead pixels I could find. I saw more streaking than with my RS500 though.

It looked good, but we didn't compare directly to my RS500 since that is going back and I'm not putting any more time on it.

The blackout skewed toward blue as can be seen in the picture, although that looked gray off the screen due to our eyes mostly seeing gray when things are dim enough. Since blue does tend to raise the visibility of the black level I wonder if a color filter could help the black floor look even deeper, but it would depend on the color balance of white and whether the projector is natively far enough from D65 that a filter would help get it to D65 while helping the on/off CR.

I believe recent JVC's have been pretty color balanced for white, so a color filter may not be useful though.

--Darin
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Old 12-15-2015, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
Can you share a picture? I'm trying to correlate how bad the paper test needs to be before we start seeing the problem on the screen. Unfortunately, I didn't take any pictures of the RS57 I had which failed paper test but was perfectly uniform on the screen - similar to your experience.
Or take the opposite approach… if you don't see it on your screen, don't worry about the paper test.
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Old 12-15-2015, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
You may be able to see a little bit of brighter green in the picture I attached, but it turned out to almost all be outside of the actual image area. When I measured just inside to try to get just the image area everything was within 10% of the center on black with the iris open, with one corner being dimmer than the center.

With the iris closed the brighter part measured about 40% higher than the center when trying to get just inside the image and not measure the border instead.

This one had pretty good convergence and no stuck on or dead pixels I could find. I saw more streaking than with my RS500 though.

It looked good, but we didn't compare directly to my RS500 since that is going back and I'm not putting any more time on it.

The blackout skewed toward blue as can be seen in the picture, although that looked gray off the screen due to our eyes mostly seeing gray when things are dim enough. Since blue does tend to raise the visibility of the black level I wonder if a color filter could help the black floor look even deeper, but it would depend on the color balance of white and whether the projector is natively far enough from D65 that a filter would help get it to D65 while helping the on/off CR.

I believe recent JVC's have been pretty color balanced for white, so a color filter may not be useful though.

--Darin

That looks better than any previous JVC I've owned so if I get that level on my RS500… Daddy Happy!

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Old 12-15-2015, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Great, by the way, not my thread, just the JVC Autocal thread...
Where is this thread? I can't seem to find it.

-Tony
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Old 12-15-2015, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
First, you would have to correlate a standard for taking the test. These are both from my projector. Iris setting and distance makes a huge difference. One is with manual iris open and against the lens. The second is with manual iris closed all the way and paper 4" away from the lens. Both were done in low lamp. The second one is very close to how I use my projector, since I use it with a -12 setting. So what looks like bad bright corners when against the lens is mostly gone, by the time the image has traveled 4". I held the copy paper vertically, so the larger image is still pretty small, less than 8.5" wide.

The other factor here could be how long the exposure was on your camera. A longer exposure is going to make this look much worse. Your second image is pretty darn good for being a paper test at 4" even with the IRIS down to -12. Thats still pretty close to the PJ
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Old 12-15-2015, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
Sorry. Not sure if this will help.

Here is an article by SoulNight from here where it shows graphs where on/off CR is on the left edge, ANSI CR is on the right edge, and in between are a bunch of intra-image CRs for different patterns:

http://projectiondream.com/en/contra...r-environment/

The DI doesn't help ANSI CR because the ANSI CR test is a test of a 4x4 checkerboard of white and black, where the DI doesn't close.

The DI does help the CRs between say a 5% window and black (the intra-image CR between those 2) on a test pattern with just those 2 because the DI can close and the projector can modify the signal.

As a simple example, if a 5% window would be 0.1 nits and black 0.01 nits with the DI off (for 10:1 intra-image CR) the DI system could close the iris down so that half the light was blocked. This would take both to half their values, but the projector could just tell the chips to put out twice as much light for the 5% window so it was still at .1 nits off the screen, but the black would now be about 0.005 nits off the screen, for 20:1 intra-image CR.

The CR for a 5% window on black is most affected by the on/off CR with the projectors we normally discuss since 5% video should be about 1/500th of white. So, even if you had a great 500:1 ANSI CR, if that was also the on/off CR then the black floor would be where you would like to put the 5% video level. So, very little CR between 5% video level and black.

The JVCs can do 20:1 or higher with a checkerboard of 5% video and black because they have high on/off CR, not because they have high ANSI CR.

I measured a 5%/0% 4x4 checkerboard on a JVC RS400 tonight and with the iris open and DI disabled I got 23:1. Enabling the DI increased that to 67:1. Starting with the iris at -15 resulted in 33:1 and that wouldn't change with the DI enabled because the DI doesn't close any further for that pattern if the manual position is set to -15.

Did I confuse you even more?

--Darin

Am I correct that where you get a boost in ANSI is by just closing down the aperture manually? I have been running the IRIS full open and letting the DI help with contrast in lower APL scenes so I still get higher light output. However I have been thinking about closing the IRIS down and targeting maybe 12Ftl and still using the DI to get a boost in both ANSI and on/off but I'd give up some brightness. I have a 4910, so I don't have a TON of light to spare, but some.

I can say I would really miss the full fade to black if it can no longer close down as far.

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Old 12-15-2015, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by atanuray View Post
Zombie, how is the flicker situation in 3D with the 600? Previous JVC's gave me headache.

I like this to know as well
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Old 12-15-2015, 11:11 AM
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I like this to know as well
I did not see flicker myself in the 3D tests I did with Joe C. I'm not a " 3D guy " though.
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Old 12-15-2015, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by atanuray View Post
Zombie, how is the flicker situation in 3D with the 600? Previous JVC's gave me headache.
In a previous post Zombie referred to the flicker as mild which is encouraging as the projectors are much brighter this time round and could have accentuated flicker for those sensitive to it.
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Old 12-15-2015, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curlyjive View Post
The other factor here could be how long the exposure was on your camera. A longer exposure is going to make this look much worse. Your second image is pretty darn good for being a paper test at 4" even with the IRIS down to -12. Thats still pretty close to the PJ
I just used an iphone 6 on auto with no flash.

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Old 12-15-2015, 11:55 AM - Thread Starter
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the flicker is not as solid as DLP (none of the non-DLP's are..) but it does appear they improved it since the last generation. I could barely get through 1/3 a movie on the RS6710 I had here recently but had no issues watching Antman 3D from beginning to end.

I will measure the 3D lumen output for solid #'s but there is no doubt it's brighter in 3D than any previous JVC. Running low lamp in 3D is usually considered sacrilege for me but it was just a bit too bright in high lamp with my 2.8HP.
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Old 12-15-2015, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
the flicker is not as solid as DLP (none of the non-DLP's are..) but it does appear they improved it since the last generation. I could barely get through 1/3 a movie on the RS6710 I had here recently but had no issues watching Antman 3D from beginning to end.

I will measure the 3D lumen output for solid #'s but there is no doubt it's brighter in 3D than any previous JVC. Running low lamp in 3D is usually considered sacrilege for me but it was just a bit too bright in high lamp with my 2.8HP.

Are you still as satisfied with its 3d performance as you were in the beginning with this new JVC?
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Old 12-15-2015, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curlyjive View Post
Am I correct that where you get a boost in ANSI is by just closing down the aperture manually?
I'm not sure about the current models, but in the past I believe closing the iris actually decreased measured ANSI CR values.

With the DI off I measured almost 50% higher intra-image CR for a 4x4 checkerboard of 0% and 5% when going to -15 from 0. That is due to the higher on/off CR though and could still happen even if ANSI CR went down.

--Darin
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Old 12-15-2015, 12:36 PM
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Hi Zombie10K,

thank you for your valuable inputs for the 3D behavior of this projector.

I am using an Epson EH-TW9200 because until now it was for me the best compromise between:
- ghosting (better than HW55ES)
- flicker (120hz refresh is easy on the eyes, unlike Sony and JVC until now stuck with 96hz)
- contrast (ON-OFF a lot higher that the usuals DLP and give some more 3D to the picture).
- good frame interpolation in 3D
- relative good brightness
- still a very good 2D projector

It seems that the new JVCs will be taking the crown for this compromise! And I am excited at this idea. However, I cannot think that flicker did improve in comparison to past JVCs without moving from 96hz to 120hz refresh. Did JVC move in that direction? Would be great!

96hz can be very uneasy on the eyes...and the following headaches...

Cheers!
Soulnight
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Old 12-15-2015, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
the flicker is not as solid as DLP (none of the non-DLP's are..) but it does appear they improved it since the last generation. I could barely get through 1/3 a movie on the RS6710 I had here recently but had no issues watching Antman 3D from beginning to end.

This is very encouraging indeed. I have never been able to get through 1/4 of a movie in a non-DLP!! This could be the elusive single projector setup I was searching.
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Old 12-15-2015, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
I'm not sure about the current models, but in the past I believe closing the iris actually decreased measured ANSI CR values.

With the DI off I measured almost 50% higher intra-image CR for a 4x4 checkerboard of 0% and 5% when going to -15 from 0. That is due to the higher on/off CR though and could still happen even if ANSI CR went down.
--Darin
I think I remember a post by you a while ago saying this and talking about running the IRIS Full Open at 0 and using the DI. This is how i have been running my 4910. at 300 hours I still have 14ftL in low lamp mode calibrated. Fade to black is "I can't see my hand in front of my face!"
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Old 12-15-2015, 01:23 PM
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I get a little bit of 3D flicker on my RS500 for very bright scenes (eg. cloudy skies, snow) but not as distracting as earlier JVC models and most of the time its not noticeable. Overall the 3D is significantly improved over my previous RS56 (contrast, brightness, clarity and especially motion).
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Old 12-15-2015, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
You may be able to see a little bit of brighter green in the picture I attached, but it turned out to almost all be outside of the actual image area. When I measured just inside to try to get just the image area everything was within 10% of the center on black with the iris open, with one corner being dimmer than the center.

With the iris closed the brighter part measured about 40% higher than the center when trying to get just inside the image and not measure the border instead.

This one had pretty good convergence and no stuck on or dead pixels I could find. I saw more streaking than with my RS500 though.

It looked good, but we didn't compare directly to my RS500 since that is going back and I'm not putting any more time on it.

The blackout skewed toward blue as can be seen in the picture, although that looked gray off the screen due to our eyes mostly seeing gray when things are dim enough. Since blue does tend to raise the visibility of the black level I wonder if a color filter could help the black floor look even deeper, but it would depend on the color balance of white and whether the projector is natively far enough from D65 that a filter would help get it to D65 while helping the on/off CR.

I believe recent JVC's have been pretty color balanced for white, so a color filter may not be useful though.

--Darin
We already know the contrast will be much worse on the edges. I wonder if these discolorations visible in the paper test also affect color temperature/gamma across the screen? One would need to run a grayscale calibration with meter at the center of the screen and then repeat with the meter positioned somewhere off to the sides.

Slightly off-topic, I saw that you picked up an OLED TV. Which model? Do you find the near-black OLED uniformity issues to be less or more distracting compared to the non-uniformity of black on the JVC?
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