Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 433 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #12961 of 15500 Old 12-24-2015, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Darin thanks for the info. Do you think this needs to be fixed in a firmware update? I don't recall having to make these changes on the previous models.
I didn't see anything that I think needs fixing in firmware. Just something that needs to communicated so people know what settings work best this year. Of course, there is still more investigation to do, but I think that communication is the best way to go around here over trying to get a change, unless one of us finds a new issue with these settings.

If they change the behavior in the firmware at this point people would need to figure out what version they had before choosing settings (other than tweaking it by eye).

If people are really concerned about 17 not being bright enough I can understand wanting a fix for that, but not being able to see 17 has been an issue with projectors for years and at least in my case I can make it show up, although not from my seating position. I know it is extra money and complication, but with a Lumagen people could probably make 17 stand out.
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
can you go into further detail on the MF scene in Oblivion? How does this look on your OLED TV?
I thought it looked great on the OLED other than issues with uniformity right above black. It seems like LG is getting better there. The way I had the OLED setup I pretty much just saw MF and then black all around that, but I was probably crushing things slightly. On the OLEDs with uniformity issues just above black I think it is better to set them so they go off for blackouts. Otherwise even blackouts bring attention to themselves. I expect LG to make some progress in this area and it sounds like at least one person was able to get a repair that helped their uniformity in the grays just above black significantly. I think the Panasonic OLEDs may have this one mostly fixed, but at $10k.

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

Last edited by darinp2; 12-24-2015 at 01:18 PM.
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post #12962 of 15500 Old 12-24-2015, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Sittler27 View Post
I don't think it matters if you are at Brightness 5 or even 0 as I don't see it changing the fact that I can't see 17 and that I can still see 18.
Are 18 and the steps above just as bright both ways?

I can just barely see 17 this way while standing up by the screen and I have a very dark room.

Thanks,
Darin

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post #12963 of 15500 Old 12-24-2015, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by BruceJK View Post
I had a similar problem with my Sony blu-ray player (BDP-S790). It worked fine in straight 2D 1080P and also 2D 4K upscale but not in 3D. Try using the HDMI2 input and setting EDID mode to 'B' (for legacy devices) as I was able to get it to work with these settings.

My PS3 works fine in 3D regardless of EDID mode so it seems to be an isolated issue with HDMI 2.0 compatibility and certain source components.
thx for the reply,


I have not tried that yet,but when i set my output on the dune hd 3d base to 1080p-24hz it works!
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post #12964 of 15500 Old 12-24-2015, 01:48 PM
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By the way the 3d on this machine is indeed the best i have seen for a non dlp projector..


Great work on this JVC!


I am gonne further investigate this machine...
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post #12965 of 15500 Old 12-24-2015, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sittler27 View Post
I don't think it matters if you are at Brightness 5 or even 0 as I don't see it changing the fact that I can't see 17 and that I can still see 18.
Are 18 and the steps above just as bright both ways?

I can just barely see 17 this way while standing up by the screen and I have a very dark room.

Thanks,
Darin
No, 18 does get dimmer but still plenty viewable at my 12.5' viewing distance.
17 wasn't viewable at all unless I was close to the screen even with brightness at 4.
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post #12966 of 15500 Old 12-24-2015, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
not surprising on the CMS, it wasn't that useful in previous generations either.

have you tried adjusting picture tone up a few clicks, that should help the high end. Dark settings up a few clicks should bring down the low end.

also, is your ID3 calibrated? this is one of the nice bonuses from buying the kit from Chromapure. Tom will reference the meter against a known high end meter and create the correct offsets in the CP license.
I'll try picture tone to see if it helps. Dark level is already at 7

My i1 is not calibrated. I didn't buy it from Chromapure. Bought it off amazon just 2 months ago.

Was thinking of selling it and just buying a Spyder 4 or 5 Pro anyways.
Thoughts on that or should I keep it?
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post #12967 of 15500 Old 12-24-2015, 02:28 PM
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About seeing 17:

I don't seem to be having a problem seeing it like some here do. I'm using the "dynamic range low" flashing bars on S&M HD Benchmark BD Edition.

I had gamma at 2.3, dark level 2, and brightness at +2. But I also went in with my lumagen mini and raised the 0 ire from 0.0 to 0.2.

Just recently, I experimented with gamma 2.4, dark level 3, and brightness at +1 (keeping the lumagen 0 ire at 0.2) and I still see 17. It isn't jumping out, but I can see it, and I can see it from viewing distance.

I'll experiment more later and report here, but I believe that even if I don't use the lumagen 0 ire trick, I'll still be able to see 17 but maybe need +2 on brightness and another click up on the gamma dark level.

It seems very odd hearing some report that they aren't seeing it even with such low gamma, high dark level and brightness settings. Something seems very old about that.

Last edited by seanbryan; 12-24-2015 at 08:14 PM.
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post #12968 of 15500 Old 12-24-2015, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanbryan View Post
About seeing 17:

I don't seem to be having a problem seeing it like some here do. I'm sing the "dynamic range low" flashing bars on S&M HD Benchmark BD Edition.

I had gamma at 2.3, dark level 2, and brightness at +2. But I also went in with my lumagen mini and raised the 0 ire from 0.0 to 0.2.

Just recently, I experimented with gamma 2.4, dark level 3, and brightness at +1 (keeping the lumagen 0 ire at 0.2) and I still see 17. It isn't jumping out, but I can see it, and I can see it from viewing distance.

I'll experiment more later and report here, but I believe that even if I don't use the lumagen 0 ire trick, I'll still be able to see 17 but maybe need +2 on brightness and another click up on the gamma dark level.

It seems very odd hearing some report that they aren't seeing it even with such low gamma, high dark level and brightness settings. Something seems very old about that.
What input level are you on? standard?
What is your source device? Mine is an Oppo 103D

Also what is your software version number?
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post #12969 of 15500 Old 12-24-2015, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
Are 18 and the steps above just as bright both ways?

I can just barely see 17 this way while standing up by the screen and I have a very dark room.

Thanks,
Darin
I don't think it's just a question of if 17 is visible. For codes 16-34, the change in brightness per code change is suppose to result in the same change in luminence value, i.e. linear until code 34. (for rec 709, L = (normalized v)/4.5, for v< 0.081).

So the question I have is: Can you get a good gray scale for all legal codes without black crush. And when you do, what will the resulting contrast ratio be? (e.g. say from code 235 to code 17)?
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post #12970 of 15500 Old 12-24-2015, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
I don't think it's just a question of if 17 is visible. For codes 16-34, the change in brightness per code change is suppose to result in the same change in luminence value, i.e. linear until code 34. (for rec 709, L = (normalized v)/4.5, for v< 0.081).
The equation for REC.709 does have a linear tail, but that is not for the display side. There has been a misconception among some in the industry that REC.709 defined the EOTF (the output curve), but for those who believed it did and didn't just rely on the natural curve of CRTs, when the same organization released BT.1886 they explicitly stated that REC.709 did not define an output curve, which is a major reason that BT.1886 was necessary.

There is a lot of history about this with Charles Poynton working for years to get the industry to define the output curve. He was involved in getting BT.1886 out.

If you have a low black floor like the JVCs are capable of then BT.1886 will call for video level 17 to be much darker than applying that REC.709 curve to the output display would result in. I believe with the REC.709 curve level 17 would be about 1/1000th of white. That is a huge jump of 50 times as bright as the black floor with 50k:1 on/off CR.

--Darin
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post #12971 of 15500 Old 12-24-2015, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
The equation for REC.709 does have a linear tail, but that is not for the display side. There has been a misconception among some in the industry that REC.709 defined the EOTF (the output curve), but for those who believed it did and didn't just rely on the natural curve of CRTs, when the same organization released BT.1886 they explicitly stated that REC.709 did not define an output curve, which is a major reason that BT.1886 was necessary.

There is a lot of history about this with Charles Poynton working for years to get the industry to define the output curve. He was involved in getting BT.1886 out.

If you have a low black floor like the JVCs are capable of then BT.1886 will call for video level 17 to be much darker than applying that REC.709 curve to the output display would result in. I believe with the REC.709 curve level 17 would be about 1/1000th of white. That is a huge jump of 50 times as bright as the black floor with 50k:1 on/off CR.

--Darin
Well I'm confused.

So what equation does rec 709 define for ETOF, just a straight gamma?

EDIT: Thanks Darin for setting me straight. I had only looked at wiki for the equations and did not look at bt 1886. So if I am reading bt1886 correctly (which I may not be), the gamma is just 2.4 with a gain for the correct peak brightness, and a minimum output (limited by room brightness).

Last edited by rak306; 12-24-2015 at 06:39 PM.
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post #12972 of 15500 Old 12-24-2015, 07:41 PM
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I just want to wish everyone a VERY merry Christmas. I'm sure you'll all be very busy tomorrow and I hope many of you get to enjoy your theaters and impress some guests with your setups! I'm off to watch the 2009 version of A Christmas Carol in 3D on the Lumis 3D-S. Great 3D effects if I remember correctly!
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post #12973 of 15500 Old 12-24-2015, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sittler27 View Post
What input level are you on? standard?
What is your source device? Mine is an Oppo 103D

Also what is your software version number?

Here is my chain of equipment and settings:

Source:
Oppo 103D -outputting YCbCr 4:2:2- all picture settings untouched (0) except for Darbee processing at HD 25

Lumagen mini - currently using a memory with no changes to the CMS, grayscale, or gamma (with the exception of raising 0 ire from 0.0 to 0.2) - the lumagen is outputting 4:2:2

RS600:
Picture mode - User 1
Color profile - Standard
Color Temp - 6500K
Gamma - Custom 1 set at 2.3 and 2.4 (been going back and forth between these two) - dark level set to +3 for 2.4 and +2 for 2.3
MPC - 1,0,1,0
All motion settings off
Clear black off
Low lamp - iris @ -13 (auto 2 for regular use, manual looking at brightness patterns)

Input level - Super White - contrast set at 7 resolving to 240
Brightness +1

I just went into the lumagen and changed the 0 ire setting back to 0.0 to take that out of the equation. At that point I was still able to see 17 but I needed to bring the brightness up to +2 and raise the dark level one more click (2 to 3, 3 to 4).

My RS600 seems to be a bit better at resolving 17 than my RS57 was. Seems I need to be less aggressive with the lumagen trick and the dark level adjustments.

I'm waiting on an exchange because of the bright corners, but now I'm concerned that there is some sort of weird variation between units for how they resolve 17. I'm hoping it is just some type of source/setting combination that is causing this for those who report it and not a variation in how the low end gamma is preset between units.

Edit: forgot to add the software version. It is u83.1

Also, I changed the input level from Super White to Standard (taking the contrast down to 0) and it didn't have any impact with how 17 is resolved for me.

Last edited by seanbryan; 12-24-2015 at 08:29 PM. Reason: Forgot some stuff
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post #12974 of 15500 Old 12-24-2015, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanbryan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sittler27 View Post
What input level are you on? standard?
What is your source device? Mine is an Oppo 103D

Also what is your software version number?

Here is my chain of equipment and settings:

Source:
Oppo 103D -outputting YCbCr 4:2:2- all picture settings untouched (0) except for Darbee processing at HD 25

Lumagen mini - currently using a memory with no changes to the CMS, grayscale, or gamma (with the exception of raising 0 ire from 0.0 to 0.2) - the lumagen is outputting 4:2:2

RS600:
Picture mode - User 1
Color profile - Standard
Color Temp - 6500K
Gamma - Custom 1 set at 2.3 and 2.4 (been going back and forth between these two) - dark level set to +3 for 2.4 and +2 for 2.3
MPC - 1,0,1,0
All motion settings off
Clear black off
Low lamp - iris @ -13 (auto 2 for regular use, manual looking at brightness patterns)

Input level - Super White - contrast set at 7 resolving to 240
Brightness +1

I just went into the lumagen and changed the 0 ire setting back to 0.0 to take that out of the equation. At that point I was still able to see 17 but I needed to bring the brightness up to +2 and raise the dark level one more click (2 to 3, 3 to 4).

My RS600 seems to be a bit better at resolving 17 than my RS57 was. Seems I need to be less aggressive with the lumagen trick and the dark level adjustments.

I'm waiting on an exchange because of the bright corners, but now I'm concerned that there is some sort of weird variation between units for how they resolve 17. I'm hoping it is just some type of source/setting combination that is causing this for those who report it and not a variation in how the low end gamma is preset between units.

Edit: forgot to add the software version. It is u83.1

Also, I changed the input level from Super White to Standard (taking the contrast down to 0) and it didn't have any impact with how 17 is resolved for me.
The only other major difference from yours and mine that may affect things is u are at 4:2:2 and I'm at 4:4:4 (both on Oppo and on JVC)
Can u try 4:4:4 and keep it at Standard (not Superwhite)?

Also, what screen u using and what is your throw distance?

Also, keep in mind I'm using an x750r.
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post #12975 of 15500 Old 12-24-2015, 08:45 PM
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I just want to wish everyone a VERY merry Christmas... I hope many of you get to enjoy your theaters and impress some guests with your setups!
Funny thing is wife will know when we unwrap the 500 tomorrow, but not telling anyone else since I've never had a pj. Hope they like it
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post #12976 of 15500 Old 12-24-2015, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanbryan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sittler27 View Post
What input level are you on? standard?
What is your source device? Mine is an Oppo 103D

Also what is your software version number?

Here is my chain of equipment and settings:

Source:
Oppo 103D -outputting YCbCr 4:2:2- all picture settings untouched (0) except for Darbee processing at HD 25

Lumagen mini - currently using a memory with no changes to the CMS, grayscale, or gamma (with the exception of raising 0 ire from 0.0 to 0.2) - the lumagen is outputting 4:2:2

RS600:
Picture mode - User 1
Color profile - Standard
Color Temp - 6500K
Gamma - Custom 1 set at 2.3 and 2.4 (been going back and forth between these two) - dark level set to +3 for 2.4 and +2 for 2.3
MPC - 1,0,1,0
All motion settings off
Clear black off
Low lamp - iris @ -13 (auto 2 for regular use, manual looking at brightness patterns)

Input level - Super White - contrast set at 7 resolving to 240
Brightness +1

I just went into the lumagen and changed the 0 ire setting back to 0.0 to take that out of the equation. At that point I was still able to see 17 but I needed to bring the brightness up to +2 and raise the dark level one more click (2 to 3, 3 to 4).

My RS600 seems to be a bit better at resolving 17 than my RS57 was. Seems I need to be less aggressive with the lumagen trick and the dark level adjustments.

I'm waiting on an exchange because of the bright corners, but now I'm concerned that there is some sort of weird variation between units for how they resolve 17. I'm hoping it is just some type of source/setting combination that is causing this for those who report it and not a variation in how the low end gamma is preset between units.

Edit: forgot to add the software version. It is u83.1

Also, I changed the input level from Super White to Standard (taking the contrast down to 0) and it didn't have any impact with how 17 is resolved for me.
Just to confirm: you can see the darker than 17 bars too?
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post #12977 of 15500 Old 12-24-2015, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanbryan View Post
Here is my chain of equipment and settings:

Source:
Oppo 103D -outputting YCbCr 4:2:2- all picture settings untouched (0) except for Darbee processing at HD 25

Lumagen mini - currently using a memory with no changes to the CMS, grayscale, or gamma (with the exception of raising 0 ire from 0.0 to 0.2) - the lumagen is outputting 4:2:2

RS600:
Picture mode - User 1
Color profile - Standard
Color Temp - 6500K
Gamma - Custom 1 set at 2.3 and 2.4 (been going back and forth between these two) - dark level set to +3 for 2.4 and +2 for 2.3
MPC - 1,0,1,0
All motion settings off
Clear black off
Low lamp - iris @ -13 (auto 2 for regular use, manual looking at brightness patterns)

Input level - Super White - contrast set at 7 resolving to 240
Brightness +1

I just went into the lumagen and changed the 0 ire setting back to 0.0 to take that out of the equation. At that point I was still able to see 17 but I needed to bring the brightness up to +2 and raise the dark level one more click (2 to 3, 3 to 4).

My RS600 seems to be a bit better at resolving 17 than my RS57 was. Seems I need to be less aggressive with the lumagen trick and the dark level adjustments.

I'm waiting on an exchange because of the bright corners, but now I'm concerned that there is some sort of weird variation between units for how they resolve 17. I'm hoping it is just some type of source/setting combination that is causing this for those who report it and not a variation in how the low end gamma is preset between units.

Edit: forgot to add the software version. It is u83.1

Also, I changed the input level from Super White to Standard (taking the contrast down to 0) and it didn't have any impact with how 17 is resolved for me.
Have you tried the enhanced input level at all? So far with standard or super white input level I do not get below black and above white (i do not see the below black bar on the pluge pattern) but with enhanced I do. Currently Sony blu Ray player to XMC-1 preamp and then into my Lumgen XS and then into my RS500.
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post #12978 of 15500 Old 12-24-2015, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank D View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanbryan View Post
Here is my chain of equipment and settings:

Source:
Oppo 103D -outputting YCbCr 4:2:2- all picture settings untouched (0) except for Darbee processing at HD 25

Lumagen mini - currently using a memory with no changes to the CMS, grayscale, or gamma (with the exception of raising 0 ire from 0.0 to 0.2) - the lumagen is outputting 4:2:2

RS600:
Picture mode - User 1
Color profile - Standard
Color Temp - 6500K
Gamma - Custom 1 set at 2.3 and 2.4 (been going back and forth between these two) - dark level set to +3 for 2.4 and +2 for 2.3
MPC - 1,0,1,0
All motion settings off
Clear black off
Low lamp - iris @ -13 (auto 2 for regular use, manual looking at brightness patterns)

Input level - Super White - contrast set at 7 resolving to 240
Brightness +1

I just went into the lumagen and changed the 0 ire setting back to 0.0 to take that out of the equation. At that point I was still able to see 17 but I needed to bring the brightness up to +2 and raise the dark level one more click (2 to 3, 3 to 4).

My RS600 seems to be a bit better at resolving 17 than my RS57 was. Seems I need to be less aggressive with the lumagen trick and the dark level adjustments.

I'm waiting on an exchange because of the bright corners, but now I'm concerned that there is some sort of weird variation between units for how they resolve 17. I'm hoping it is just some type of source/setting combination that is causing this for those who report it and not a variation in how the low end gamma is preset between units.

Edit: forgot to add the software version. It is u83.1

Also, I changed the input level from Super White to Standard (taking the contrast down to 0) and it didn't have any impact with how 17 is resolved for me.
Have you tried the enhanced input level at all? So far with standard or super white input level I do not get below black and above white (i do not see the below black bar on the pluge pattern) but with enhanced I do. Currently Sony blu Ray player to XMC-1 preamp and then into my Lumgen XS and then into my RS500.
Yes. I do too with enhanced. But I need to set Brightness at -50 calibrate to the pattern and only see 17 and up. Doesn't seem right.
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post #12979 of 15500 Old 12-24-2015, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sittler27 View Post
The only other major difference from yours and mine that may affect things is u are at 4:2:2 and I'm at 4:4:4 (both on Oppo and on JVC)
Can u try 4:4:4 and keep it at Standard (not Superwhite)?

Also, what screen u using and what is your throw distance?

Also, keep in mind I'm using an x750r.
I'm using a 106" diagonal DaLite Da-Mat screen at about 12 feet (I'd need to measure).

Sorry, I just shut things down for the night and won't be able to look at it again until Sunday night. I'll check the 4:4:4 then and let you know.

Last edited by seanbryan; 12-24-2015 at 11:21 PM.
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post #12980 of 15500 Old 12-24-2015, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sittler27 View Post
Just to confirm: you can see the darker than 17 bars too?
Not as I have things currently set. I can just make out 17.

Initially, I had the lumagen 0 ire increased to 0.4, and I found that I was able to see 16. But that raised a flag for me since 16 is black and we don't want to see it. When I looked closer at the lumagen 0 ire tweaks I found that anything over 0.2 was raising the black floor.

Of course, if I the input level to enhanced I can see all the bars, but I have had no need to use enhanced.
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post #12981 of 15500 Old 12-24-2015, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Frank D View Post
Have you tried the enhanced input level at all? So far with standard or super white input level I do not get below black and above white (i do not see the below black bar on the pluge pattern) but with enhanced I do. Currently Sony blu Ray player to XMC-1 preamp and then into my Lumgen XS and then into my RS500.
I have tried enhanced out of curiosity. It shows all of the bars, I think all the way down to 0.

I've had no need to use it though, since I'm able to resolve 17 using either standard or super white.
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post #12982 of 15500 Old 12-24-2015, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Sittler27 View Post
Yes. I do too with enhanced. But I need to set Brightness at -50 calibrate to the pattern and only see 17 and up. Doesn't seem right.

Woah, yeah that doesn't seem right. On Sunday night when I check the 4:4:4 I'll also throw it in enhanced and see what brightness I need to hit to get it to only show 17 and up. I'm definitely not expecting it to be -50, but I'll confirm.
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post #12983 of 15500 Old 12-25-2015, 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Sittler27 View Post
Yes. I do too with enhanced. But I need to set Brightness at -50 calibrate to the pattern and only see 17 and up. Doesn't seem right.
Yes I believe that I had to also reduce the brightness by a large amount too when I set the JVC to enhanced. So that seemed unnatural.

Wondering if anyone is getting the below back and above white with JVC set to standard input level (and using a blu ray player to send the signal to JVC)?

I think it may be the JVC projector controlling these levels (vs my blu ray player) as standard input level per JVC manual page 46 says dynamic range is 16-235 for standard input level. So no 0 - 16 or 236 to 255.

For enhanced JVC manual says 0 - 255 but than you must be feeding the JVC a PC input level and not video. Most blu ray players probably can only output a video signal and not PC so probably not a good idea to use this with a blu ray player outputting a video level signal as there would be a mis-match. I am wondering if I can get my Lumagen XS to convert the blu ray player video level signal to PC level and if that would create any issues.

For Super White JVC manual says 16 - 255. So you can at least get above whites.
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post #12984 of 15500 Old 12-25-2015, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
different topic - Is anyone playing around with the Sony 4K media player on the new JVC's?
Where can I find other 4k sources to feed the 500? and when is the 4k BD player coming out? I'd like to start a new 4k collection. Thanks
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post #12985 of 15500 Old 12-25-2015, 02:54 AM
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Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
EDIT: Thanks Darin for setting me straight. I had only looked at wiki for the equations and did not look at bt 1886. So if I am reading bt1886 correctly (which I may not be), the gamma is just 2.4 with a gain for the correct peak brightness, and a minimum output (limited by room brightness).
That sounds right to me. I think of BT.1886 as a 2.4 gamma with a roll-off for the error caused by having a non-perfect black level.

When there is a deviation from standard or correct in general the best way to deal with that error is to distribute it somewhat. In other words, roll it off, as opposed to clipping it.

In this case of raised black level this means distributing the error by raising all levels except for white up some to account for this error. In the case of running P3 content on a REC.709 the error caused by smoothing the error out in colors near color primaries at least. In the case of HDR shown on a monitor with a lower peak white than the HDR content calls for this means smoothing there error out near white instead of just clipping at whatever white is on the display. For example, if content is mastered for 1000 nit peaks and the display can only do 100 nits, instead of clipping all content that is supposed to be above 100 nits, compress this detail below 100 nits so that the detail doesn't completely disappear, but doesn't have the separation the content called for.

So, I view BT.1886 as an ideal 2.4 gamma curve, except with distribution of the error across the gamma curve due to real world setups most often not being able to do black correctly (zero light).

I hope that makes sense.

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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post #12986 of 15500 Old 12-25-2015, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by seanbryan View Post
Not as I have things currently set. I can just make out 17.

Initially, I had the lumagen 0 ire increased to 0.4, and I found that I was able to see 16. But that raised a flag for me since 16 is black and we don't want to see it. When I looked closer at the lumagen 0 ire tweaks I found that anything over 0.2 was raising the black floor.

Of course, if I the input level to enhanced I can see all the bars, but I have had no need to use enhanced.
Ok, so in summary I think this is where we are both aligned on the following points:

Enhanced shows all black bars, but requires a very low Brightness level (for me it's close to -50)
Super white & Standard doesn't show below 16, and when Brightness level is at about 8 or above (for me) I can just barely make out 17 when standing 1' from the screen, however 18 is viewable at seating distance.
However, since when I put a 0 IRE pattern up and hit Hide I can see a shift happen, I need to lower Brightness to 4 to not have the shift happen.
Finally, since lowering Brightness further to 0 doesn't make 18 disappear completely at my seating distance, I set Brightness at 0 just to be able to say that I didn't need to move it...albeit, between 0 and 4 it doesn't seem to make a difference.

Finally, my setup specifics:
15.5' throw to 138" diag 2.35 screen (but calibrating on a ~110" 16:9 image on it)
Screen is Dalite JKP HD Progressive 1.3 Gain (measured at about 1.28 gain)
Aperture = -10
Seating distance = 12.5'
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post #12987 of 15500 Old 12-25-2015, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Sittler27 View Post
Ok, so in summary I think this is where we are both aligned on the following points:

Enhanced shows all black bars, but requires a very low Brightness level (for me it's close to -50)
Super white & Standard doesn't show below 16, and when Brightness level is at about 8 or above (for me) I can just barely make out 17 when standing 1' from the screen, however 18 is viewable at seating distance.
However, since when I put a 0 IRE pattern up and hit Hide I can see a shift happen, I need to lower Brightness to 4 to not have the shift happen.
Finally, since lowering Brightness further to 0 doesn't make 18 disappear completely at my seating distance, I set Brightness at 0 just to be able to say that I didn't need to move it...albeit, between 0 and 4 it doesn't seem to make a difference.

Finally, my setup specifics:
15.5' throw to 138" diag 2.35 screen (but calibrating on a ~110" 16:9 image on it)
Screen is Dalite JKP HD Progressive 1.3 Gain (measured at about 1.28 gain)
Aperture = -10
Seating distance = 12.5'
So you have to raise brightness to 8 or more to barely be able to resolve 17 when viewing close up to the screen? Yeah, that doesn't sound right. I wonder how the low end gamma is tracking on your unit out of the box. Have you been able to measure that yet?
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post #12988 of 15500 Old 12-25-2015, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by seanbryan View Post
So you have to raise brightness to 8 or more to barely be able to resolve 17 when viewing close up to the screen? Yeah, that doesn't sound right. I wonder how the low end gamma is tracking on your unit out of the box. Have you been able to measure that yet?
@seanbryan , how or what is the process you are following to do the "lumagen 0 ire tweaks"? I am at the moment barely resolving 17 (more like a faint 18 squinty 17) but if the lumagen could help willing to try once. I tried searching in this section but cant seem to find the process.

In search of video bliss...
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post #12989 of 15500 Old 12-25-2015, 10:01 AM
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So you have to raise brightness to 8 or more to barely be able to resolve 17 when viewing close up to the screen? Yeah, that doesn't sound right. I wonder how the low end gamma is tracking on your unit out of the box. Have you been able to measure that yet?
See post 12952 for my gamma curve.

Low end gamma is tracking 2.6 or so, so that may be it, but for the life of me I cannot get a flat gamma measurement.
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post #12990 of 15500 Old 12-25-2015, 10:08 AM
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@seanbryan , how or what is the process you are following to do the "lumagen 0 ire tweaks"? I am at the moment barely resolving 17 (more like a faint 18 squinty 17) but if the lumagen could help willing to try once. I tried searching in this section but cant seem to find the process.
I'm just going from memory here:

First you need to enter the service mode. For the lumagen mini you hit "menu 0910", I don't know if that varies for other models if you don't have the mini.

Then from the menu you select, I think, output. Then CMS (color management systems), then grayscale/gamma. Then select the 21 point gamma adjustment. I may be missing a step or so in there, but that is the basic path.

Then on the left hand side of the grayscale/gamma adjustment menu bar it lists the ire that can be adjusted, 21 points from 100 to 0 ire. 100 is the first one displayed. You can arrow down all the way to 0, or more simply, arrow up once to 0 ire.

Then arrow over to the luma. It should be 0.0 by default. You can then raise that up a few clicks and this will help resolve 17 better.

Just be sure that you aren't raising the black floor. For me, raising it two clicks to 0.2 doesn't visibly raise the black floor, but it does at 0.3. To check, put up a 0 ire field and hit the hide button. You shouldn't see any difference between 0 and hide. If hide is darker, then you've raised the black floor and should back down until you don't.

Thanks to Manni for this technique!
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