Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 445 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 01-15-2016, 08:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
O.K. -- first, I haven't spent a great deal of time with the projector but I sure have looked at the things that are important to me -- perceived resolution; black levels; how the laser modulation functions; overall dynamics; and of course 3D. No doubt I'll find some issues but I'm very familiar with the video material I'm using and I've got a pretty good idea how my JVCs handles that material.

Let me first say that it's a real pleasure to have the RS400, RS500 and LS10000 all in my home -- these are wonderful projectors and all throw a fabulous image.

Now, with respect to the laser modulation -- it is active for both 2D and 3D, which of course is important to me. I have put it on high speed and will experiment with it on normal speed when I have some more time. With actual material I have not noticed it pumping at all and so far has worked flawlessly. When the projector is syncing the image will fluctuate from full black to its native contrast a few times; however, it works effectively with material and the full fade to blacks (if you appreciate that sort of thing, which I do) are quite stunning. I watched a cable show which had a white logo in the bottom right corner and during fades the projector was limited to its native contrast rather than shutting the laser off (due to the logo) and the projector's "black" looked very black, helped no doubt by the white logo.

The black levels to me look closer to the RS400 than the RS500 but watching actual content in my opinion is the acid test and the blacks and dynamic range of the projector are excellent -- I'm a black level fanatic and I'm very pleased with what the LS10000 can do. I should also add that my unit has excellent panel uniformity, convergence and no issue with streaking. Its very similar in this respect to my RS400 (the LS10000 does have better panel uniformity than my RS400 and much better panel uniformity than my RS500 -- in my opinion this is a big plus for the LS10000).

3D is interesting. I haven't watched enough to give a definitive answer about whether or not it can hold its own against this year's JVCs but from what I've seen so far I suspect it can. I did throw a couple of tough scenes its way and it handled them without issue -- in fact slightly better than my JVCs. It is quite possible that the JVCs will handle some tough 3D scenes (show no ghosting) better than the Epson while for other scenes the Epson may get the nod. One of the toughest scenes for the JVCs is the bridge (Golden Gate) scene near the beginning of the 3D (French version) of Upside Down. This is one of the few scenes that has caused problems for the S400 and RS500, even with engaging the cross-talk canceller. I'll run this scene with the Epson and report back.

I obviously have no experience with the LS10000 prior to firmware 1.30 being issued so I can't comment about how the 4K simulation worked at that time. I will say that so far it appears to me that Epson may have a slight edge on JVC in this area. I was a little taken aback about how sharp and detailed the image was -- there was some extra noise in the image so I went to the 4K section in the menu and as I thought it was set quite high at 4K3. I lowered it to 4K1 and went back for another look. Well, the image was still extremely sharp and detailed with little or no noise and I have to say I'm impressed. IMO it doesn't have that over cooked look but looks very smooth, sharp and detailed. I'll have to experiment a little more but so far I've noticed more "noise" in the image with the JVCs, which may be do to their added brightness -- speaking of -- the Epson is very bright in 2D mode on my 120" HP screen so I'm running it in econo mode with the manual iris at around -8 or -9 and I'm seeing a very bright, high contrast, and vivid image. For 3D the projector defaults to high brightness mode and is very bright on the HP and looks great (so far or until that picky part of me starts to see issues).

This projector is a beast -- it makes the JVCs look small. It reminds me of a Sim2 design, which isn't a bad thing. Build quality seems to be exceptional and the packaging for the beast was second to none. Epson spared no expense when it packaged the LS10000 -- I suspect the delivery service could toss it out of an airplane over your house and you'd get it without a scratch.

Those are my impressions for now -- to be cotinued….
Thanks for the great feedback so far. you have the crown now for most projectors in 1 location...
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Old 01-15-2016, 08:47 AM
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It's about double the street price.
Not necessarily.


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Old 01-15-2016, 08:54 AM
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Not necessarily.
The lowest I've seen the LS10000 is $6100. The lowest I've seen the RS400 is $3250. You're saying the LS10000 can be found for less than $6000?
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Old 01-15-2016, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
The mid-range (3-5k) DLP market disappeared a while ago. We were left with 8-10K DLP's and budget 1K and under. The Sharp 30K was something in between with excellent 3D capabilities and nice sharp 2D PQ. it also has a good DI. Full auto lens shift + focus (not found on any of the budget DLP's). Replacement OEM lamps are inexpensive so operation costs are low. I would still have paid $1500-1700 for it today.

There's also some excellent deals on low hour JVC's out there. $1350 for a low hour RS46 is a steal. I own this projector as well and it's surprising how well it keeps up with the newer model JVC's.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JVC-DLA-RS46...-/191775827911
Hey Zombie, what are the 2d advantages of the RS46 vs RS45? I Could sell my 45, grab the 46 and not be out much cash by the time its said and done if there is a significant difference between the two.
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Old 01-15-2016, 09:24 AM
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Hey Zombie, what are the 2d advantages of the RS46 vs RS45? I Could sell my 45, grab the 46 and not be out much cash by the time its said and done if there is a significant difference between the two.
+agreed, we both wish to see further info from his comparison or beliefs on this comparison+

You took the words right out of my brain. I was thinking the same thing, like I could be out $2000+ on an RS-400 (after selling existing JVC) and probably end up with an image way brighter than I needed anyways since I still have the 2.4HP screen, but in the middle of trying to buy a new screen anyhow...

OR

I could be out about $500 or less to get the RS-46

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Old 01-15-2016, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Let us not forget I think the Epson Ls10000 costs about double or even a bit more than that over the RS-400, right (or am I off)?
Where I live the LS10000 is exactly double the price of the RS-400. And Seegs has been right all along about the value proposition. If you're going to upgrade for an inexpensive 4K solution in a year or two the RS-400 is the way to go.

If you're looking for a longer term projector and the extra cost isn't an issue then I'd have to say the Epson is a very good option. The long term thing is a tough call since technology seems to change so quickly (HDR for example) and in a couple of years you will probably get more features for the same or less money.

I guess it all depends on how old you are and what's on your bucket list.
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Old 01-15-2016, 09:53 AM
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I haven't had the chance to see the LS10000 with the latest firmware update. Before that update, Epson's eshift implementation was visibly a step behind the JVCs gen 3 eshift as was the contrast performance when we had the X500's image next to the LS10000. E-shift on the Epson was soft and appeared to effect the image physically by altering the focus of the projector. It's nice to hear they were able to correct this via firmware. For people who are on the forum a lot we tend to upgrade far more frequently than the average user. In this case maybe the LS10000 is a better choice due to the laser/phosphor wheel light source. I still think the image of the RS400 is better. If we look at brightness, ANSI contrast, native on/off contrast, image sharpness, lens quality 3D performance and the price in which JVC asks for all of this compared to the Epson it's hard to choose the Epson over the JVC. They also offer in 18Gbps HDMI 2.0a/HDCP 2.2 ports with HDR (and full P3 support on the RS500 which is also cheaper than the LS10000). For me anyway, I think Epson's firmware upgrade to help offset some of the issues is too little too late. If they were to lessen the cost, then I'd say it'd be a viable option over the JVC if you wanted to gain the light source over the small deficit in image quality.
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Old 01-15-2016, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I haven't had the chance to see the LS10000 with the latest firmware update.
If you want your negative Epson comments to be taken seriously, you must at least see one with the latest firmware. Otherwise, you're spreading misinformation, i.e., information that doesn't pertain to the current LS10000's. Deja Vu's information is current, he has the JVC's as well, so IMO I would respect his opinion.
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Old 01-15-2016, 10:06 AM
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If you want your negative Epson comments to be taken seriously, you must at least see one with the latest firmware. Otherwise, you're spreading misinformation, i.e., information that doesn't pertain to the current LS10000's.
And when did I make a claim to the current performance of the LS10000? I was pretty straight forward with my words about how I haven't seen the LS10000 with a current firmware. How does that alter anything that I've said? The rest of the performance metrics of this unit remain the same. Can it do HDR? Does it have 18Gbps HDMI ports now? Did it somehow become brighter than the RS400/500? Does it somehow now have higher ANSI or native on/off contrast? Has the 3D performance level been raised about the practically ghost free status of the RS400/500? Is the lens quality somehow better now that it has a new firmware? Is the input lag now reduced (240ms) when eshift is engaged? No, the firmware didn't change any of that. It added a little extra brightness and fixed an issue with eshift that shouldn't have been there anyways. Like I said, I think it's too little too late. Maybe if this unit weren't so expensive I'd feel differently.

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Old 01-15-2016, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
+agreed, we both wish to see further info from his comparison or beliefs on this comparison+

You took the words right out of my brain. I was thinking the same thing, like I could be out $2000+ on an RS-400 (after selling existing JVC) and probably end up with an image way brighter than I needed anyways since I still have the 2.4HP screen, but in the middle of trying to buy a new screen anyhow...

OR

I could be out about $500 or less to get the RS-46
Great to see you posting again Coder!

I was thinking along similar lines as you. My 45 has about 1500 hours and the lamp has developed a random flicker in both low and high at times. I have another bulb on deck, but if I can get a better machine for not much out of pocket, I would consider that as well.
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Old 01-15-2016, 11:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey Zombie, what are the 2d advantages of the RS46 vs RS45? I Could sell my 45, grab the 46 and not be out much cash by the time its said and done if there is a significant difference between the two.
It's been a while since i've seen the RS45. if I recall, it's a bit brighter and the R709 default settings had better saturation tracking. The main advantage was the new lamp that seems to do very well and also the better 3D which makes 3D watchable whereas it was just terrible on the RS40/45/55.

The reason I kept this specific RS46 is because it's one of the best sample JVC's i've seen yet. The convergence and lens are golden sample quality and it helps the projector look better than it should for a base model. I had this stacked with 1/2 dozen different RS6710's last year and had no real motivation to consider an upgrade at the time.

edit: this is also the last JVC with somewhat respectable lag time, ~ 40-45ms.
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Old 01-15-2016, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
It's been a while since i've seen the RS45. if I recall, it's a bit brighter and the R709 default settings had better saturation tracking. The main advantage was the new lamp that seems to do very well and also the better 3D which makes 3D watchable whereas it was just terrible on the RS40/45/55.

The reason I kept this specific RS46 is because it's one of the best sample JVC's i've seen yet. The convergence and lens are golden sample quality and it helps the projector look better than it should for a base model. I had this stacked with 1/2 dozen different RS6710's last year and had no real motivation to consider an upgrade at the time.

edit: this is also the last JVC with somewhat respectable lag time, ~ 40-45ms.
Thanks for your thoughts. 40-45ms of lag? That is a big improvement over the 45 (and even a bit better than the 50ms on my benq 7000) which has around 80-90 if I remember right. Didn't realize the 46 was that much better! I haven't gamed in a few years, but was considering a PS4 maybe at some point.
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Old 01-15-2016, 12:47 PM
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Yah, the RS-45 was 80-90ms as I recall too, I was about to post the same thing. I have also not gamed much in a few years, though there are a couple exceptions now and then. Meaning to try the flying out in Just Cause 3, but that will probably get boring after a day. $50 for one day of fun :P
I did enjoy looking at the graphics in GTA V, but didn't really "play" it much, as I just cannot get into games the same way as when I was much younger, guess it happens...

The comparison I am most interested in is the RS-46 vs. RS-400, though I'm kind of leaning on just keeping the RS-45 another year or so, but I'm not sure. It does most everything I need it to, biggest complaint is the gamut over-enforcing that slight yellow skin tone look in some scenes, but it isn't always noticeable. I guess that and the lamp issues, if the issues are even as bad with v3 lamps as they once were (not sure, maybe)...

It's very hard to judge lamp issues in this forum on the RS-45 and similar, because most people seemed to have upgrade in the forums already, not that many people still even using RS-45's.

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Old 01-15-2016, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post
Thanks for your thoughts. 40-45ms of lag? That is a big improvement over the 45 (and even a bit better than the 50ms on my benq 7000) which has around 80-90 if I remember right. Didn't realize the 46 was that much better! I haven't gamed in a few years, but was considering a PS4 maybe at some point.
David Mackenzie did a great review on it here. He covers OOTB color gamut saturation tracking and also 3D color calibration which is a rarity for a review. He posted ~45ms

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/jvc-x35-201302052614.htm

it also has exceptional grey field uniformity. better than some of the later models I've seen recently (RS4910/57/6710).

A few weeks ago I watched the Martian in 2D. Once on the DC4 Planar and a second time on the RS46. The JVC killed in the low APL scenes.

Plus I really miss these granular gamma controls, gone after this model.



someone will get a great deal if it sells for only $1350
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Old 01-15-2016, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Yah, the RS-45 was 80-90ms as I recall too, I was about to post the same thing. I have also not gamed much in a few years, though there are a couple exceptions now and then. Meaning to try the flying out in Just Cause 3, but that will probably get boring after a day. $50 for one day of fun :P
I did enjoy looking at the graphics in GTA V, but didn't really "play" it much, as I just cannot get into games the same way as when I was much younger, guess it happens...

The comparison I am most interested in is the RS-46 vs. RS-400, though I'm kind of leaning on just keeping the RS-45 another year or so, but I'm not sure. It does most everything I need it to, biggest complaint is the gamut over-enforcing that slight yellow skin tone look in some scenes, but it isn't always noticeable. I guess that and the lamp issues, if the issues are even as bad with v3 lamps as they once were (not sure, maybe)...

It's very hard to judge lamp issues in this forum on the RS-45 and similar, because most people seemed to have upgrade in the forums already, not that many people still even using RS-45's.
I'm not sure how I missed the 46 being 40-45ms in lag when it was released, but that is good to know and might be the tipping point to me switching out.
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Old 01-15-2016, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
David Mackenzie did a great review on it here. He covers OOTB color gamut saturation tracking and also 3D color calibration which is a rarity for a review. He posted ~45ms

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/jvc-x35-201302052614.htm

it also has exceptional grey field uniformity. better than some of the later models I've seen recently (RS4910/57/6710).

A few weeks ago I watched the Martian in 2D. Once on the DC4 Planar and a second time on the RS46. The JVC killed in the low APL scenes.

Plus I really miss these granular gamma controls, gone after this model.



someone will get a great deal if it sells for only $1350
Thanks again and great info. Did you calibrate quite a few of these when they hit and if so, did they seem fairly consistent as far as the good OOTB settings?
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Old 01-15-2016, 01:57 PM
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I'm not sure how I missed the 46 being 40-45ms in lag when it was released, but that is good to know and might be the tipping point to me switching out.

Wow i wish the JVC rs400 had that kind off lag..


But i still enjoy playing rainbowsix siege on the JVC rs400 even with the high lag .


Because at my age i am not so fast anymore with games lol..
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Old 01-15-2016, 03:09 PM
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Hello dejavu and zombie and ofcourse everbody else,


I did mention it before but if you like 3d go watch Lichtmond III 3d.
This is a musical 3d trip from 50 minutes that you will never forget.


Sorry but it is true.
This was a amazing trip on the JVC(maybe you could watch it on the epson also dejavu?)


I promise you guys if you like 3d and relaxing music go watch this and turn the volume on 11!!


And the last second of the movie you will love your JVC i promise you that!
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Old 01-15-2016, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Yah, the RS-45 was 80-90ms as I recall too, I was about to post the same thing. I have also not gamed much in a few years, though there are a couple exceptions now and then. Meaning to try the flying out in Just Cause 3, but that will probably get boring after a day. $50 for one day of fun :P
I did enjoy looking at the graphics in GTA V, but didn't really "play" it much, as I just cannot get into games the same way as when I was much younger, guess it happens...

The comparison I am most interested in is the RS-46 vs. RS-400, though I'm kind of leaning on just keeping the RS-45 another year or so, but I'm not sure. It does most everything I need it to, biggest complaint is the gamut over-enforcing that slight yellow skin tone look in some scenes, but it isn't always noticeable. I guess that and the lamp issues, if the issues are even as bad with v3 lamps as they once were (not sure, maybe)...

It's very hard to judge lamp issues in this forum on the RS-45 and similar, because most people seemed to have upgrade in the forums already, not that many people still even using RS-45's.
Running RS45 in my family room. Use probably 4 times a week. The 45 does throw a nice image.

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Old 01-15-2016, 06:16 PM
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Wow i wish the JVC rs400 had that kind off lag..


But i still enjoy playing rainbowsix siege on the JVC rs400 even with the high lag .


Because at my age i am not so fast anymore with games lol..
Is the lag that bad? I play that on my 4k samsung, but going to try it on my RS500.
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Old 01-15-2016, 10:52 PM - Thread Starter
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So when are you changing your Avatar?

I know.... tough to do with the slick look of that Sony bad boy ..... back to an RS JVC that has looked the same for the past 4 years or more.
done. The JVC's with the high native contrast are the best fit for my blacked out room and the specific content I like to watch. This is one area i'm hoping Sony can improve in the future models. There is only so much the DI can do in low APL scenes. this wasn't as apparent until I really darkened the room. Both the RS46 and RS600 look great @ -11 iris on the big 142" HP.
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Old 01-16-2016, 12:30 AM
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What are the 3D lumens in 3D mode before the glasses?
About 1500 mid-throw/zoom?

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Old 01-16-2016, 04:40 AM
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Hi all,

I have a question. As a huge 3D freak, I want the best possible 3D image (however Infitec is not an option in my setup).

I currently own a Sony VW665 with which I'm generally happy. High native contrast (though not as high as JVC), in combination with very good ANSI contrast (about 420:1) makes a very fine 4k upscaled picture in my optimized room on my 130 inch 2.4:1 screen (Gain 1.0). 3D is practically crosstalk free and also profits from high native sharpness as well as the good ANSI contrast. However I only get about 170-180 lumen max behind the 3D glasses (even in brightest glass mode with the brightest 'Custom 5' color temp) which give me only about 3.5 foot Lambert... I now heard that the JVCs are very bright in 3D. However, i probably would not want to give up on that clean, sharp, cross-talk free picture of my VW520 for only a little more brightness.

So, if anyone of you has seen 3D on both projectors and could give me an objective honest opinion on how the 3D compares between those projectors, Id be very thankful. Its primarily about brightness, so the central question would be how many brightness behind the 3D glasses is there on a new JVC with comparable, meaning a practically cross-talk free picture? Has anyone measured this?

Thanks a lot
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Old 01-16-2016, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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The VW600 and VW665 should be the same with the 3D performance / light output. You would likely see ~300-400 lumen difference in 3D output (pre-glasses) comparing the 2016 JVC's to this model. It does have the ability to increase it's 3D light output even further with the use of the crosstalk controls which ships at a 0 setting. Increasing from 1-6 will also noticeably increase the brightness with the possibility of introducing more x-talk. I found the +3 setting to be a good balance and it's very bright in 3D on my 2.8HP screen.

With your setup, have you considered looking for a good used Dalite HP screen? perhaps a drop down model to go in front of your 130" 2.4:1 1.0 gain screen. The HP screens are an excellent companion for 3D. When you have to squint in bright scenes (with the glasses on) then the 3D is finally bright enough.

coder - the output isn't quit that high. I'll check it later tonight.
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Old 01-16-2016, 10:01 AM
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The VW600 and VW665 should be the same with the 3D performance / light output. You would likely see ~300-400 lumen difference in 3D output (pre-glasses) comparing the 2016 JVC's to this model. It does have the ability to increase it's 3D light output even further with the use of the crosstalk controls which ships at a 0 setting. Increasing from 1-6 will also noticeably increase the brightness with the possibility of introducing more x-talk. I found the +3 setting to be a good balance and it's very bright in 3D on my 2.8HP screen.

With your setup, have you considered looking for a good used Dalite HP screen? perhaps a drop down model to go in front of your 130" 2.4:1 1.0 gain screen. The HP screens are an excellent companion for 3D. When you have to squint in bright scenes (with the glasses on) then the 3D is finally bright enough.

coder - the output isn't quit that high. I'll check it later tonight.
Thanks a lot. What I measured on my VW665 in 3D mode before the glasses is only 900 lumen (half of max output in 2D). I find that strange (but it reminds me of DLP 3D modes). Maybe there is some kind of blank frame insertion in 3D mode to decrease crosstalk. Would it be possible for you to measure light output behind the glasses? Its difficult for me to translate those 300-400 lumens more pre-glasses into what finally arrives behind the glasses...

I have to check for the HP screen, but it seems hard to get here in Switzerland. I also dont like that fact of viewing angle dependent brightness (when watching with friends). Besides that its a nice possibility for sure.
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Old 01-16-2016, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
The VW600 and VW665 should be the same with the 3D performance / light output. You would likely see ~300-400 lumen difference in 3D output (pre-glasses) comparing the 2016 JVC's to this model.
Until I see more measurements, I have the vw600 / vw665 set to 1200 lumens for 3D mode, whereas the new JVC's are set to 1500 lumens. The Sony vw300/vw365 is set to 1100 in 3D mode. I have very little info right now though, so it's my best estimate based on the little info I have.

Just updated the calculator, updated all Sony numbers and mounting info, corrected the Sharp projectors placement info, etc... Still have to update all the Epsons and Benqs (lot of work)...

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Old 01-16-2016, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Mustang84 View Post
Thanks a lot. What I measured on my VW665 in 3D mode before the glasses is only 900 lumen (half of max output in 2D). I find that strange (but it reminds me of DLP 3D modes).
You measured the max 2D mode, and that mode was equal to the expected brightness?
3D only 900 lumens, that is surprising...

EDIT:
One thing I noticed (at least according to Art @ PJ-Reviews), is that these Sony's are losing around 30 percent of their brightness from closest to farthest throw. The old JVC's lose about 25%, I don't know how much the new JVC's lose yet, but assuming the same until I see otherwise.

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Last edited by coderguy; 01-16-2016 at 10:15 AM.
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Old 01-16-2016, 10:12 AM
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You measured the max 2D mode, and that mode was equal to the expected brightness?
3D only 900 lumens, that is surprising...
Yes, max 2D was somewhere between 1700 and 1800 lumen. And 3D max only around half of that. I would have to measure again for the exact numbers and to check that Im correct.

I was measuring somwhere at middle zoom, towards max zoom
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Old 01-16-2016, 10:14 AM
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What throw position are you measuring from, near mid-zoom / mid-throw?

**New Projector Calculator Released**
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Old 01-16-2016, 10:26 AM
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Somewhere between mid-zoom to max-zoom
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