Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 448 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #13411 of 15230 Old 01-17-2016, 05:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
Well Zombie our Sharp 30000s have certainly appreciated in value -- what a great investment (I'm kidding)!

http://www.amazon.com/Sharp-XV-Z3000.../dp/B007RFCGLM

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Sharp-XV...-/301844802041


$1750 that was a pretty good guess. it's hard to believe people out there still know about this projector.
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post #13412 of 15230 Old 01-17-2016, 05:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Agreed! One of the first blu concerts I bought and still one of the best.
A friend and I watched the PG 'Back to Front' concert last night. -11 on the iris, it looked great. very intense light show from beginning to end. The sound is remarkable as well.

After it was over, we watched a number of the same songs from the 'Live in Athens 1987' concert. he still has the same voice after all these years. I had the volume just 2 clicks below take your breathe away.
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post #13413 of 15230 Old 01-17-2016, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
A friend and I watched the PG 'Back to Front' concert last night. -11 on the iris, it looked great. very intense light show from beginning to end. The sound is remarkable as well.

After it was over, we watched a number of the same songs from the 'Live in Athens 1987' concert. he still has the same voice after all these years. I had the volume just 2 clicks below take your breathe away.

Great to hear that 'Back to Front' is an excellent watch/listen. I have had a copy of that for a while, but have not got around to watching it yet. Looking forward to it!

I don't have the Athens show, but have almost picked it up a few times. Sounds like I need to grab it! The Secret World show is still one of my favorite blu ray concerts (and love my 'Growing Up' dvd as well) so I am curious to see these two.

Got my Alice in Chains Unplugged dvd and as soon as I get my surrounds I will give it a spin.
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post #13414 of 15230 Old 01-17-2016, 07:56 PM
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Over the last two years I have been extremely pleased with the beautiful, sharp, film-like images with great native contrast from my JVC projectors; I owned a pre-order RS4910 and then moved to a pre-order RS500. I watch on a modest 100-inch wide 2.35 screen and sit about 1x screen width away; the brightness of the RS4910 was good and the RS500 has been very impressive with the bright punchy image (even with the manual iris at -14/-13).

At my seating distance I found that the RS4910 needed CMD on low to improve the motion on many sources (albeit it smoothed a little too much) and now I have enjoyed the new Blur Reduction on the RS500 which seems to have taken the edge off; but I still found it disappointing that the RS500 CMD frame interpolation still has the vertical banding artifacts which are often visible in low-/mid-APL content -- thus making CMD still useless to me as the banding is so jarring that it pulls me out of the content.

The pink JVC elephant in the room for me is the flicker in high-APL image elements. I'm not referring to lamp flicker (AFAIK), nor am I referring to dynamic iris gamma flicker. The flicker is (also) present on high lamp, with dynamic iris disabled, all processing disabled (MPC, CMD, Clear Black), on both 24 & 60Hz content. I have used multiple sources, multiple HDMI cables, isolated the power using a UPS running off battery. The flicker is visible (although much less so) on the blue screen when no HDMI input is available. Not only can I see the flicker, my wife can see it, as can several friends, so it is clearly not only an individual sensitivity issue -- although it has only bothered me. My hypothesis here is that it is a combination of the low panel refresh rate (96Hz for 24Hz content and 120Hz for 60Hz content) and the high contrast nature of the panels; see this document of mine for a quantitive evaluation from January 2015: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5...pVanNYWUZ1blYw

The flicker is not noticeable to me in all content, particularly when I'm not looking for it -- the flicker is however quite noticeable when the image is of a fairly static scene (for example some of the nice bright desert panoramas in Lawrence of Arabia, but is also visible in almost any paused image with high APL content like overexposed windows). It is incredibly noticeable on the high-APL calibration image of the AVS709 disc for another example. The real problem is that not only is it often noticeable and jarring but that sometimes it is so strong that I feel physically affected by it -- like looking into a muted strobe light.

So I sold my RS4910 last fall because I felt the flicker must be a fault of my unit (despite the fact Mendtronix was able to discern the flicker but they were told by JVC that it is normal). Note I did disclose the flicker to the RS4910’s buyer, but I haven't heard back that it was bothersome to them. As I didn’t have a local dealer to demo other JVC unit samples to look for the flicker, I decided that I would give JVC another chance given the otherwise excellent image and so I pre-ordered the RS500.

This week I watched the new National Lampoon Vacation on the RS500 with the wife and barely noticed any flicker; in fact I could barely see it when I looked for it -- except when I paused the movie for an intermission, but even then it was still only modestly obvious. However, I also watched an episode of Game of Thrones the same night and the flicker was quite distracting in the bright snowy scenes -- with no need to pause or intentionally look for it. Finally, I just received a replacement RS500 (due to an unrelated defect in the original RS500) but only fired it up last night for less than an hour because the same flicker was still present.

Due to the (occasional) physical discomfort, I will be returning the JVC RS500. I don’t see any similar kind of flicker on my Mitsubishi HC7900DW DLP. I recently stopped by a Sony dealer and did not see the flicker (on the same content) on either a VW600ES or a HW40ES -- presumably due to the 240Hz panels and/or the lower native contrast.

My current plan is to get an Epson LS10000. Between the stable laser light source and (up to) 480Hz panels, it seems to be the best option w.r.t. flicker and despite some comments here to the contrary seems to be the second best image to the JVC for the price range. The intent is for the projector to be flipped in 1-3 years for a 4K upgrade of some kind.

I suppose my only hesitation is UHD Blu-ray compatibility, specifically 10-bit and DCI-P3 color. Without HDR and REC2020 container support, it is still an open question as I understand whether I will be able to get DCI-P3 color in a P3 container from the initial (or any) UHD Blu-ray player to fully utilize the LS10k. Given this, I plan to suffer with my low contrast DLP a while until the new players are available in a month, maybe then some questions will be answered.

Any opinions on the flicker and on my choice as LS10000 as the next best option?
I was not personally aware of flicker on JVC's I demo'ed for 2D. I am not aware of any flicker issues 2D and 3D on the Epson either. I would strongly suggest you demo the Epson before buying just to test for flicker and put your own mind at rest.

The HDR conundrum is hard to read for projectors at present. The JVC's are certainly more future proofed in this regard, a point clearly made by Seegs earlier. Whether Epson are able to firmware adapt the LS10000 for some form of HDR compatibility is a case for conjecture. As is the issue of whether or not 10 bit Color will be bundled with HDR exclusively or available separately.

On this point I took some small comfort from an interview with a Panasonic Hollywood VP Ron Martin at CES where he suggested that 'legacy' TV's would be catered for and would able to utilise the best elements of an UBR signal. As I'm not in a bat cave but a lounge with the dreaded white walls Im effectively stuffed when it comes to HDR. My only option would be the Sony 5000 and that is completely out of my price range, mores the pity. But your suggestion to see what unfolds does sound sensible if you plan to hold onto the pj for any significant length of time.
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post #13415 of 15230 Old 01-18-2016, 06:20 AM
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I watched Everest 3D all the way through last night with the Epson and it was a mixed bag (spoiler alert). I have read most of the reviews of the Epson LS10000's 3D capabilities and all I can say about them is that IMO they're rubbish. They often claim that there is very little ghosting and if anyone sees much they're just hardcore extremely picky videophiles. I don't consider myself to be a videophile though I am picky when it comes to 3D. I don't often say this about what I post here but if you want the truth about the Epson's 3D performance then keep reading.

In the brighter scenes there's very little ghosting. These are very high contrast scenes and I would have expected to see ghosting here if it was to be seen at all (like Happy Feet 2 -- blue sky against a snowy landscape). Even black snow outfits against the snow are not a problem. It's in the darker scenes (during the storm near the end of the movie) that ghosting becomes problematic. From a 3D perspective these scenes are disappointing -- ghosting is easily visible, and for me at least, distracting. This is frustrating since the LS10000 does such a great job in all other aspects of its performance -- for example, at the end of the film individual photos of the actual individuals depicted in the movie are shown and then there's a couple second fade to black and then another photo. No digital projector I've seen handles this better than the Epson -- the integrity of these fades separates the Epson from just about all other digital projectors from my point of view and is something I've been searching to find since I've been purchasing digital projectors. So, for some scenes I feel like I've been slapped in the face and for other scenes I feel like I've been given a big warm hug. Now that's a mixed bag if there ever was one.

I also spent a few minutes with one of my favourite 2D movies -- New World (Korean with sub titles). The Epson, in my opinion, is simply amazing with 2D material. I set the 4K setting to 2 and let the film roll. The image had more detail (very stable) in it than I have seen from any other digital projector (and I saw no obtrusive noise). The image certainly looked better than 1080p and I have to say I am extremely impressed. I watched some 2D with the JVCs and I don't recall seeing 2D look this good -- very, very, good but not quite like this. To be fair I'll run these scenes past the JVC with various eshift settings and compare.

At this point I have to say that the JVC clearly handles 3D better than the Epson -- here's hoping Epson understands this and reverse engineers the JVC projectors to determine the magic used by JVC and then does one better. The Epson with DLP's (and I would settle with JVC-like 3D) lack of ghosting with adequate brightness to support HDR would be my dream projector -- close, yet so far. Here's hoping JVC adds a laser (with Epson's laser modulation including total fades to black) improves their eshift some more, adds more lumens to support its HDR feature and gives us 4K -- all without breaking the bank. Here's hoping Epson adds 4K, HDR with significantly more lumens to support it and ups its game with 3D. Surely that's not too much to ask?

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post #13416 of 15230 Old 01-18-2016, 08:29 AM
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I watched Everest 3D all the way through last night with the Epson and it was a mixed bag (spoiler alert). I have read most of the reviews of the Epson LS10000's 3D capabilities and all I can say about them is that IMO they're rubbish. They often claim that there is very little ghosting and if anyone sees much they're just hardcore extremely picky videophiles. I don't consider myself to be a videophile though I am picky when it comes to 3D. I don't often say this about what I post here but if you want the truth about the Epson's 3D performance then keep reading.

In the brighter scenes there's very little ghosting. These are very high contrast scenes and I would have expected to see ghosting here if it was to be seen at all (like Happy Feet 2 -- blue sky against a snowy landscape). Even black snow outfits against the snow are not a problem. It's in the darker scenes (during the storm near the end of the movie) that ghosting becomes problematic. From a 3D perspective these scenes are disappointing -- ghosting is easily visible, and for me at least, distracting. This is frustrating since the LS10000 does such a great job in all other aspects of its performance -- for example, at the end of the film individual photos of the actual individuals depicted in the movie are shown and then there's a couple second fade to black and then another photo. No digital projector I've seen handles this better than the Epson -- the integrity of these fades separates the Epson from just about all other digital projectors from my point of view and is something I've been searching to find since I've been purchasing digital projectors. So, for some scenes I feel like I've been slapped in the face and for other scenes I feel like I've been given a big warm hug. Now that's a mixed bag if there ever was one.

I also spent a few minutes with one of my favourite 2D movies -- New World (Korean with sub titles). The Epson, in my opinion, is simply amazing with 2D material. I set the 4K setting to 2 and let the film roll. The image had more detail (very stable) in it than I have seen from any other digital projector (and I saw no obtrusive noise). The image certainly looked better than 1080p and I have to say I am extremely impressed. I watched some 2D with the JVCs and I don't recall seeing 2D look this good -- very, very, good but not quite like this. To be fair I'll run these scenes past the JVC with various eshift settings and compare.

At this point I have to say that the JVC clearly handles 3D better than the Epson -- here's hoping Epson understands this and reverse engineers the JVC projectors to determine the magic used by JVC and then does one better. The Epson with DLP's (and I would settle with JVC-like 3D) lack of ghosting with adequate brightness to support HDR would be my dream projector -- close, yet so far. Here's hoping JVC adds a laser (with Epson's laser modulation including total fades to black) improves their eshift some more, adds more lumens to support its HDR feature and gives us 4K -- all without breaking the bank. Here's hoping Epson adds 4K, HDR with significantly more lumens to support it and ups its game with 3D. Surely that's not too much to ask?
Hello dejavu did you watch those ghosting 3d scenes also on the JVC?
And was the movie worth it to watch in 3d?


Best regards
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post #13417 of 15230 Old 01-18-2016, 08:48 AM
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Hello dejavu did you watch those ghosting 3d scenes also on the JVC?
And was the movie worth it to watch in 3d?


Best regards
Everest in 3D is definitely worth watching -- some great 3D shots of mountain scenery etc. I think it helps draw you into the story a little more.

Just a comment about 3D and the use of negative parallax -- Negative parallax is employed much more than most people think -- some complain that nothing protrudes from the screen. That's simply wrong -- we don't get a lot of things flying out from the screen and into our face; however, lots of things protrude beyond the screen. I've mentioned this before -- here's a little test you can do to determine where items are placed with respect to the plane of your screen. Just put your projector's menu on screen and leave it there for a few minutes. The menu will help you locate your screen and make it easier for you to determine where objects are placed in relation to the screen. You will now come to appreciate all the thought that goes into each 3D scene and just how that impacts the overall 3D. IMO the people who do the conversions and/or who wrote the software are very talented.

Just about everything 3D is post converted and it seems to me that it is now done so well that shooting in native 3D is not worth the extra effort and expense. I suspect that this trend will continue and we will see very few films shot in native 3D.

I'll take a look at the tough scenes in Everest with the JVC after I've given it some time to warm up.
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post #13418 of 15230 Old 01-18-2016, 08:52 AM
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Everest in 3D is definitely worth watching -- some great 3D shots of mountain scenery etc. I think it helps draw you into the story a little more.

Just a comment about 3D and the use of negative parallax -- Negative parallax is employed much more than most people think -- some complain that nothing protrudes from the screen. That's simply wrong -- we don't get a lot of things flying out from the screen and into our face; however, lots of things protrude beyond the screen. I've mentioned this before -- here's a little test you can do to determine where items are placed with respect to the plane of your screen. Just put your projector's menu on screen and leave it there for a few minutes. The menu will help you locate your screen and make it easier for you to determine where objects are placed in relation to the screen. You will now come to appreciate all the thought that goes into each 3D scene and just how that impacts the overall 3D. IMO the people who do the conversions and/or who wrote the software are very talented.

Just about everything 3D is post converted and it seems to me that it is now done so well that shooting in native 3D is not worth the extra effort and expense. I suspect that this trend will continue and we will see very few films shot in native 3D.

I'll take a look at the tough scenes in Everest with the JVC after I've given it some time to warm up.

Thx man,


i like to know how the JVC handles the scenes
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post #13419 of 15230 Old 01-18-2016, 08:59 AM
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Thx man,


i like to know how the JVC handles the scenes
Here's a review of Everest and some comments about its 3D (and yes, it is definitely worth watching in 3D):

https://www.avforums.com/review/ever...y-review.12297
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post #13420 of 15230 Old 01-18-2016, 09:19 AM
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Zombie,

What do you recommend for basic brightness/contrast calibration for 3D? Specifically, patterns I can use while using 3D glasses. I haven't seen a bluray with this...
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post #13421 of 15230 Old 01-18-2016, 10:20 AM
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I watched Everest 3D all the way through last night with the Epson and it was a mixed bag (spoiler alert). I have read most of the reviews of the Epson LS10000's 3D capabilities and all I can say about them is that IMO they're rubbish. They often claim that there is very little ghosting and if anyone sees much they're just hardcore extremely picky videophiles. I don't consider myself to be a videophile though I am picky when it comes to 3D. I don't often say this about what I post here but if you want the truth about the Epson's 3D performance then keep reading.
Hi Deja Vu, many thanks once again for the detailed and well written insight into the pro's and con's of the Epson. I am now dying to try out the two films that give the Epson 3D problems. Reading accounts of the JVC 3D performance by Zombie and others I have developed a strong impression that the JVC's probably do outclass the Epson in 3D mode. Due to flicker issues I never spent much time on the 3D with the JVC, something I regret now. Having said that, on the Epson I have tried stuff like the Hobbit trilogy, Insurgent (horrible pop out by the way), San Andreas (Dodgy film but great post production 3D) Mad Max Fury Road, Transformers ( I know but what can I say) Tangled, Inside Out, and Scrooge 3D and not really noticed any crosstalk nasties. All have seemed very clean. Oddly the only struggle I have currently is with Avatar. On the early scenes with humans in, I feel a strong pull to cross my eyes. I also do get some crosstalk issues creeping in and the scene were Jake is being pursued by the wolf monster feels almost unwatchable. Sigh.

Still, I'm hopeful the Epson will continue to provide a good 3D experience on many of the discs that interest me and I also agree with Deja Vu that improved 3D a/la JVC on future models will be mandatory.
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post #13422 of 15230 Old 01-18-2016, 10:39 AM
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Just about everything 3D is post converted and it seems to me that it is now done so well that shooting in native 3D is not worth the extra effort and expense. I suspect that this trend will continue and we will see very few films shot in native 3D.
We were watching The Walk in 3D on the JVC RS600 last night. I was really enjoying the 3D. It's not perfect, with a bit of a sense of double outlines or image break up in motion.

Then I put on Prometheus in 3D and it felt like another world of 3D quality. It literally seemed perfect - no ghosting that I could see, utterly smooth, and more naturally dimensional. I've never seen better 3D.

My take away was that "real" 3D still has it over conversions. Though, not being super familiar with the 3D process, I don't know if there are other variables making such a conclusion too hasty.
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post #13423 of 15230 Old 01-18-2016, 11:39 AM
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Hi Rich, San Andreas looks like real 3D and its post production. I must say after your Prometheus recommendation I know what I'm watching this evening
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post #13424 of 15230 Old 01-18-2016, 11:48 AM
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We were watching The Walk in 3D on the JVC RS600 last night. I was really enjoying the 3D. It's not perfect, with a bit of a sense of double outlines or image break up in motion.

Then I put on Prometheus in 3D and it felt like another world of 3D quality. It literally seemed perfect - no ghosting that I could see, utterly smooth, and more naturally dimensional. I've never seen better 3D.

My take away was that "real" 3D still has it over conversions. Though, not being super familiar with the 3D process, I don't know if there are other variables making such a conclusion too hasty.
Watch Pacific Rim in 3D -- that may change your mind. Mad Max is also a great post converted 3D movie. They've gotten so good at this that I can't tell the difference and some post converted 3D looks better to me than some 3D filmed with 3D cameras (the "real" thing).
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post #13425 of 15230 Old 01-18-2016, 12:42 PM
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What's the native contrast and the ansi contrast for the LS10000? I notice Epson is pulling a Sony 5000 move basically saying infinite contrast, but that doesn't help you know how intrascene contrast is.
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post #13426 of 15230 Old 01-18-2016, 12:50 PM
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What's the native contrast and the ansi contrast for the LS10000? I notice Epson is pulling a Sony 5000 move basically saying infinite contrast, but that doesn't help you know how intrascene contrast is.
Kris Deering recently reviewed one and found the maximum obtainable native contrast is 24000:1 (telephoto end of the lens and manual iris clamped down). Set up like this, however, and you're only outputting about 300 lumens according to cine4home. If you enable the dynamic laser dimming system you can extend it to ~80000:1 - 120000:1 dynamic contrast depending on how you have the lens and iris set up before the laser shuts off for true black. But at max brightness (max zoom and iris open) is around 14000:1. This is around 1000 lumens, though the new firmware update seems to increase light output. My guess is that this means we'll see these contrast numbers go down. More light in an otherwise unchanged light engine means reduced contrast. We see this with the JVC DLA-RS400. Same light engine as last year but a higher wattage bulb. We went from 27000:1 to 21000:1 with the increase in lumens on the X500 to the RS400. There's no reason not to expect a similar drop proportionate to the increase in lumens the Epson now has. ANSI contrast was measured by Kris at 210:1 and cine4home measured an average 230:1 on the units they calibrated.
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post #13427 of 15230 Old 01-18-2016, 12:57 PM
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Watch Pacific Rim in 3D -- that may change your mind. Mad Max is also a great post converted 3D movie. They've gotten so good at this that I can't tell the difference and some post converted 3D looks better to me than some 3D filmed with 3D cameras (the "real" thing).
Only non animated shots were post converted in Pacific rim
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post #13428 of 15230 Old 01-18-2016, 01:37 PM
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I'm half way through Prometheus on the Epson and I've got to agree with Rich H, the 3D is stunning. Its about the best I have ever seen, clean and clear with fantastic depth and wonderful colour. It does make me wonder if the artefacts Deja Vu has observed are as much a problem with the source 3D implementation as with the Epsons ability to render it. I know Deja is checking this out so he should be able to clarify soon.
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post #13429 of 15230 Old 01-18-2016, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by billqs View Post
What's the native contrast and the ansi contrast for the LS10000? I notice Epson is pulling a Sony 5000 move basically saying infinite contrast, but that doesn't help you know how intrascene contrast is.
Most of what you will hear is old data on early LS10000's. The new firmware improved them in many ways. For my updated LS10000, sequential contrast measured 17.7K at my mid-throw distance (17ft). This is in Natural mode, high power, calibrated to d65 rec709, mechanical iris at 0 (fully open), dynamic contrast off. In Dynamic mode it measured 24K under the same conditions. Note the iris was not closed down to obtain any of these measurements. I stated all this in my update post at 1000hrs Epson LS10000 1 year/1000 hrs Checkup
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post #13430 of 15230 Old 01-18-2016, 01:55 PM
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~18000:1 seems the be about right for the iris/zoom range in terms of what one would get if they were using the settings you just mentioned. Once I get my RS400 here, I'll be getting in contact with a member on the forum to do a comparison to the firmware updated LS10000. I'll be measuring lumen output and contrast. I'll also bring my Leo Bodnar input lag tester to see if the newest firmware has helped it in any way.
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post #13431 of 15230 Old 01-18-2016, 02:16 PM
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The black level on the laser driven LS10000 is nearly the same regardless of which power level is chosen: ECO, medium, or high power. This is because the minimum drive level on the lasers is the same. This is different from a lamp driven projector in that the lamp is always on and is burning brighter as power level selected is increased. It's understandable that black level would go up with power level on lamp based projectors. The contrast on my LS10000 measures higher now than it did when it was new, primarily due to the new firmware which increased the light output.
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post #13432 of 15230 Old 01-18-2016, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
More light in an otherwise unchanged light engine means reduced contrast.
That's not quite right. All else equal, shoving more light through a light engine, contrast remains the same. Just look at Cine4home's measurements of the RS49/X500:
https://translate.google.com/transla...tm&prev=search

High lamp vs low lamp (30% difference in light), exactly the same contrast. Now black level does go up, but that's because more light, everything goes up.

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We see this with the JVC DLA-RS400. Same light engine as last year but a higher wattage bulb. We went from 27000:1 to 21000:1 with the increase in lumens on the X500 to the RS400.
We should be careful here. The RS400 didn't get the new Wire Grid Polarizers of the new models, but I don't think anyone's said it's "exactly the same". It seems most logical that JVC tweaked something, probably put a more open static iris in to let more light through. I don't think a 15% increase in lamp power alone explains a 30%+ increase in brightness.

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There's no reason not to expect a similar drop proportionate to the increase in lumens the Epson now has.
If Epson is just running the lasers harder, there's no reason to expect contrast to drop, it shouldn't.

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Originally Posted by Citation4444 View Post
The black level on the laser driven LS10000 is nearly the same regardless of which power level is chosen: ECO, medium, or high power. This is because the minimum drive level on the lasers is the same. This is different from a lamp driven projector in that the lamp is always on and is burning brighter as power level selected is increased. It's understandable that black level would go up with power level on lamp based projectors. The contrast on my LS10000 measures higher now than it did when it was new, primarily due to the new firmware which increased the light output.
Dynamic laser modulation turned off, the black level is a function of the LCoQ panels. Native contrast should not have changed with a laser power boost. Though if you're talking with the Dynamic Laser Modulation enabled, then that makes sense since the minimum
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post #13433 of 15230 Old 01-18-2016, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I'll be getting in contact with a member on the forum to do a comparison to the firmware updated LS10000. I'll be measuring lumen output and contrast. I'll also bring my Leo Bodnar input lag tester to see if the newest firmware has helped it in any way.
I'm looking forward to your results for the LS10000, particularly for short throw the lumens and contrast for both rec709 and P3 at various iris/DI positions and also the lag especially if they have brought the 1080p e-shift down below 200ms so that my AVR can fully compensate.
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post #13434 of 15230 Old 01-18-2016, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
I'm seriously considering the same thing as you - trying the Epson. Please post here if you end up buying it as I'm interested in opinions from others who are also bothered by this JVC flicker. I would rate it as equivalent to DLP RBE on the discomfort scale.

As I posted before, the older RS40-RS45 generation JVC did not have this issue. But their lamps were garbage so not a real option. I will try to get some high-speed footage of the new JVC models to see what they are doing when refreshing the panel.
Yes I'll keep you (and the forum) posted. I'll likely wait until mid-February to order a unit to see what is announced at ISE and see how initial UHD players support non-HDR displays with P3/10-bit. Until then I'll be using the manual lens method (Navitar SSW08 conversion lens) for my Mits HC7900DW to mostly fill my screen for scope content.

I just hope as JVC ups their game to 4K in the coming years that they don't continue to use the same panel refresh rate/method.
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post #13435 of 15230 Old 01-18-2016, 03:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MadMyers View Post
Zombie,

What do you recommend for basic brightness/contrast calibration for 3D? Specifically, patterns I can use while using 3D glasses. I haven't seen a bluray with this...
basically the same adjustments that you are making in 2D would work fine in 3D mode. i'm at -1 contrast and +5 brightness for my setup.

The main part of the 3D calibration is adjusting the greyscale settings to compensate for the glasses. This is my 3D kryptonite like xtalk is to DV. Color has to look good in 3D.
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post #13436 of 15230 Old 01-18-2016, 04:16 PM
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I'm watching Interstellar right now on the RS500. I've never seen it look this good, even on the Sony 1100ES. No DI or any extra processing is on (eshift, sharpening, ect). I just have the manual iris clamped down. Space is black and bright scenes are bright! Motion looks excellent as well. Best overall image I've had here. It's so impressive what these new JVCs can do "natively". The image is stable like you'd get at a commercial cinema. No fluctuations in brightness or color shifts due to a dynamic iris or dynamic gamma occur. The image is natively sharp enough where it looks naturally sharp and needs no help from extra processing and thus nothing looks unnaturally oversharpened. The more projectors I have here the more I appreciate qualities that a projector has natively. There's something about the image being stable the entire time that is impressive to me. You're never taken out of the experience by something odd happening in the picture. You can simply sit back and consume the content with all of your attention. That's what a JVC can offer you; the best native performance out of any projector out there today. If JVC can bring this level of performance (or better) to a native 4K unit, I honestly can't see a reason anyone would go with another projector if their main use was movie or TV show watching.
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post #13437 of 15230 Old 01-18-2016, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
KWe see this with the JVC DLA-RS400. Same light engine as last year but a higher wattage bulb. We went from 27000:1 to 21000:1 with the increase in lumens on the X500 to the RS400. There's no reason not to expect a similar drop proportionate to the increase in lumens the Epson now has. ANSI contrast was measured by Kris at 210:1 and cine4home measured an average 230:1 on the units they calibrated.
I've seen you state this several times before, but it should also be known there are many applications where the RS400 will have notably more contrast than the X500.


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post #13438 of 15230 Old 01-18-2016, 04:21 PM
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Has anyone tried using the Oppo 103D to upscale Blu-rays to UHD along with e-shift4 and what are your thoughts compared to just native 1080p on the projector?


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post #13439 of 15230 Old 01-18-2016, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
I've seen you state this several times before, but it should also be known there are many applications where the RS400 will have notably more contrast than the X500.
To that same point there are many applications where the X500 can have notably more contrast than a RS400. The lowest amount of lumen output we can get with the RS400 is 700 lumens according to cine4home. This yields 40000:1 contrast. The benefit of the X500 is that it can do 50000:1 and still have about 400 lumens. The X500 can also have a noticeably darker black level if that's what you're after. I'd argue it this way; with the higher amounts of light output that can match the X500, the RS400 has more contrast within the image, but lower than 700 lumens of output the X500 has more contrast. It all depends on how you set it up and/or what your needs are for lumen output.
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post #13440 of 15230 Old 01-18-2016, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
~18000:1 seems the be about right for the iris/zoom range in terms of what one would get if they were using the settings you just mentioned. Once I get my RS400 here, I'll be getting in contact with a member on the forum to do a comparison to the firmware updated LS10000. I'll be measuring lumen output and contrast. I'll also bring my Leo Bodnar input lag tester to see if the newest firmware has helped it in any way.
Don't remember if you already posted, but have you measured on/off (and ANSI) on your RS500? Since the Cine4Home review seems to be MIA, I'm looking for some others to confirm the final production numbers. I tried to measure an RS600 last weekend but got very low numbers. Around 50K:1. The unit had pretty bad bright corners so I wonder if that raised the black floor and killed contrast. I used the same meter, method, and room to measure an RS57 (with no bright corners) and got over 100K:1. I usually position the meter as close as possible to the lens and move it around randomly to get the highest light reading before it overwhelms the maximum range. This gives the highest lux reading for the black floor to minimize error. Once I find the best position I lock the tripod and measure white/black ratio.

Zombie, have you measured contrast on your RS600? Is your method similar to mine or is there a better way to position the meter?
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