Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 451 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #13501 of 16290 Old 01-21-2016, 08:45 AM
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Mornin'! 2 questions for this epic and long running thread.

Zombie, are you still (hopefully) at some point going to display in detail with photos taken up close to the screen what you were seeing with 1080P and 4K sources when comparing the Sony 1100ES and the JVC RS600? I know you showed what was happening with the micro posterization going on in tiny groups of detail, or rather obscuring detail, with the Sony. That was an eye opener and might explain a lot of the apparent "sharpness" of that projector from seating distances. Anyway, it's always a treat and awesome when you do those visual expositions with your screen grab camera skills and knowledge of what you're describing.

Secondly, what is it exactly about 3D that "with a pristine source" such as Pacific Rim ..... that looks soooo damn "clear" and allowed me yesterday to sit less than 1 screen width back from my 2.8 HP 8'5" wide 16x9 screen?? I could never do that with a pristine source 2D bluray, either with this great iteration of eShift4 or with the razor sharp 1080P images I'm getting from my RS500, with my first experience with the newer even tinier pixel gaps. But my one limiting factor yesterday since my screen bottom is only 18" off the floor.... was my head starting to create a shadow. I think visually I might have been able to go another 1/2 foot closer or more. Which is one damn BIG 16x9 image. I have never waxed poetic as others do with movies and being drawn into them and losing myself in 2D in my theater. But with the absolutely clean images of that transfer and the tremendous 3D and things making their way out of the plane of the screen as well toward me, oh yeah Baby I was there. Could only imagine if seeing it for the first time. Same feeling a bit later under water with IMAX Under The Sea. It's like I was down there in the reef it was so "CLEAR". The Potato Cod .... holy crap his nose looked like real life just 12" from my nose being seated that close.

3D on these JVCs with the stunning dynamic range and 25-30 2D FL brightness off the HP screen instead of old school, dim ass 3D FL = mind blown for me
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post #13502 of 16290 Old 01-21-2016, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Where do you have your crosstalk cancel setting at? I've seen a bunch of people claim that they've increased the level on this to max or near max to get more 3D brightness but this also introduces a very noticeable amount of flicker. On my unit if I keep it at default or within about one to two clicks up, the flicker is all but gone.
I haven't touched any of the 3D related settings. I put in a 3D movie, the JVC switches automatically to a 3D setting (which puts it on high lamp) and off I go.

I plan to have my calibrator do a 3D setting this weekend.
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post #13503 of 16290 Old 01-21-2016, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
I haven't touched any of the 3D related settings. I put in a 3D movie, the JVC switches automatically to a 3D setting (which puts it on high lamp) and off I go.

I plan to have my calibrator do a 3D setting this weekend.
Good call. I evaluated all the 3D modes and none of them are even close to accurate when watching thru the glasses. The glasses really drown out the red and blue channels leaving a lot of excessive green that needs to be taken out (which also takes away brightness). I ended up doing a calibration using my Radiance Pro and its lightning LUT. I end up with a very accurate image. I'm still using low lamp though with the iris all the way open. I end up with about 9 fL through the glasses, which is double my previous brightness. Obviously I could get more in high lamp but I don't want the noise of the fan. I also RARELY watch 3D, probably about 1% of my overall viewing. We watched The Walk in 3D last night. Looked great, but still doesn't do anything for me as far as 3D.

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post #13504 of 16290 Old 01-21-2016, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Good call. I evaluated all the 3D modes and none of them are even close to accurate when watching thru the glasses. The glasses really drown out the red and blue channels leaving a lot of excessive green that needs to be taken out (which also takes away brightness). I ended up doing a calibration using my Radiance Pro and its lightning LUT. I end up with a very accurate image. I'm still using low lamp though with the iris all the way open. I end up with about 9 fL through the glasses, which is double my previous brightness. Obviously I could get more in high lamp but I don't want the noise of the fan. I also RARELY watch 3D, probably about 1% of my overall viewing. We watched The Walk in 3D last night. Looked great, but still doesn't do anything for me as far as 3D.

I am sure you posted it recently, but just to remind me, what size screen were you on when getting this end number?
Just curious for my own research....

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post #13505 of 16290 Old 01-21-2016, 09:01 AM
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I am sure you posted it recently, but just to remind me, what size screen were you on when getting this end number?
Just curious for my own research....
I have a 120" diagonal 16x9 Stewart Studiotek 100 (1.0 gain) screen.

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post #13506 of 16290 Old 01-21-2016, 09:01 AM
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I just keep playing off of zombie's original menu choices and settings, and created a second User 3D profile with High lamp. I go into them even with a couple of the CMS sliders, and certainly the rest of the sliders to see if a click or two or three this way or that for skin tones and color saturation and shadow detail and higlights can be improved. 3D to me now looks as calibrated as any projector I've ever had, and then running my new found lumens on my wonky lamp that just needed to burn in with some time on High I guess ..... set to minus 10 for Pacific Rim turns in those great shadow details and blacks. I can't even see a shadow puppet for 3 or 4 seconds with the DI on Auto 1 let alone the bright corners for a few more seconds (that are visible on the Hide function), after coming from 3D at higher FL, same as with 2D.
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post #13507 of 16290 Old 01-21-2016, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I have a 120" diagonal 16x9 Stewart Studiotek 100 (1.0 gain) screen.
Sweet, my calculator is more accurate on 3D than I even expected, guess what it calculated your 3D Lumens as...

9fL to 11fL depending on your mounting distance being mid-zoom or farthest throw (would be a bit higher at closest according to the calculator), not bad at all... Of course it is assuming high lamp, but if you are at mid-zoom it says 11 fL, so it is giving 25% more lumens, maybe off a tad by 15% or so.

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post #13508 of 16290 Old 01-21-2016, 09:12 AM
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Sweet, my calculator is more accurate on 3D than I even expected, guess what it calculated your 3D Lumens as...

9fL to 11fL depending on your mounting distance being mid-zoom or farthest throw (would be a bit higher at closest according to the calculator), not bad at all... Of course it is assuming high lamp, but if you are at mid-zoom it says 11 fL, so it is giving 25% more lumens, maybe off a tad by 15% or so.
I didn't measure brightness with high lamp for 3D. Without the calibration I could get about 12-13 fL in low lamp iris fully open in 3D mode, but you have to bring down green a lot to get an accurate calibration for 3D. Post calibration using the colorchecker in Spectracal (the big one, not the small one) I get a max dE of 2.1 for color and an average of .5. Grayscale/gamma (1886) is max 1.2 average of .3.

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post #13509 of 16290 Old 01-21-2016, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
We watched The Walk in 3D last night. Looked great, but still doesn't do anything for me as far as 3D.
Wow, if The Walk doesn't add 3D value for you, 3D isn't for you.

I found it added hugely to the sense of being there on that tightrope. My palms were sweating and I was more viscerally engaged than any movie I can remember. (I watched it at 116" wide FWIW).
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post #13510 of 16290 Old 01-21-2016, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I didn't measure brightness with high lamp for 3D. Without the calibration I could get about 12-13 fL in low lamp iris fully open in 3D mode, but you have to bring down green a lot to get an accurate calibration for 3D. Post calibration using the colorchecker in Spectracal (the big one, not the small one) I get a max dE of 2.1 for color and an average of .5. Grayscale/gamma (1886) is max 1.2 average of .3.
Good, the calculator is estimating as a calibrated 3D Lumens, there is a reason, even if people do not calibrate, it is better to estimate slightly on the low side than on the high, that way my error margins will often equate to their images being as bright or brighter than they expect, rather than the error reducing the brightness to end up dimmer than they expect.

Thing is, since people have hours on the lamp anyways, my estimate is really for 0-200 hours (let us say 100), and then it changes at 500 hours.

So the calculator is really telling people, 9fL to 12fL on Lamp High at 100 hours after calibrating 3D mode. The slight variance is likely due to may calculator assuming 65% loss in 3D brightness from the glasses, when for the JVC's it is closer to 50%, but it will vary on every PJ so I just get it relatively ballpark anyhow.

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post #13511 of 16290 Old 01-21-2016, 09:26 AM
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Wow, if The Walk doesn't add 3D value for you, 3D isn't for you.

I found it added hugely to the sense of being there on that tightrope. My palms were sweating and I was more viscerally engaged than any movie I can remember. (I watched it at 116" wide FWIW).
I thought the 3D lended a lot to the movie, as it does with others I've seen as well (Hugo comes to mind), but while 3D will add something to a few choice scenes, it tends to bug me for the rest of the film or add nothing at all. Typically with 3D films I tend to eventually forget that I'm watching 3D as you adjust, and if that is the case I would rather not watch it as I would rather not have the glasses, the light and resolution loss and the side effects (ghosting, gimmicky 3D tricks). I understand why some people like it, it is just rarely something that I find value in compared to a really well done 2D image.
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post #13512 of 16290 Old 01-21-2016, 10:24 AM
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I thought the 3D lended a lot to the movie, as it does with others I've seen as well (Hugo comes to mind), but while 3D will add something to a few choice scenes, it tends to bug me for the rest of the film or add nothing at all. Typically with 3D films I tend to eventually forget that I'm watching 3D as you adjust, and if that is the case I would rather not watch it as I would rather not have the glasses, the light and resolution loss and the side effects (ghosting, gimmicky 3D tricks). I understand why some people like it, it is just rarely something that I find value in compared to a really well done 2D image.
I can definitely see that point of view. Even with the better 3D on the new JVCs, I still go back and forth between the 2D and 3D version of a movie as to which experience I prefer. In sheer PQ terms the 2D images have it over the 3D images. But I do enjoy the ability to experience two different versions of a movie. I also find 3D often untangles visual information in really densely populated shots.
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post #13513 of 16290 Old 01-21-2016, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I thought the 3D lended a lot to the movie, as it does with others I've seen as well (Hugo comes to mind), but while 3D will add something to a few choice scenes, it tends to bug me for the rest of the film or add nothing at all. Typically with 3D films I tend to eventually forget that I'm watching 3D as you adjust, and if that is the case I would rather not watch it as I would rather not have the glasses, the light and resolution loss and the side effects (ghosting, gimmicky 3D tricks). I understand why some people like it, it is just rarely something that I find value in compared to a really well done 2D image.
I feel similar to you. I get a headache watching it and so does my wife. I don't like wearing the glasses. When we watched Avatar in the theaters, I had to take the glasses off and eventually just left because I found it rather annoying. Another issue I have with 3D is that everything appears super artificial to me and detracts from the movie.

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post #13514 of 16290 Old 01-21-2016, 10:43 AM
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I haven't touched any of the 3D related settings. I put in a 3D movie, the JVC switches automatically to a 3D setting (which puts it on high lamp) and off I go.

I plan to have my calibrator do a 3D setting this weekend.
For some reason, my 600 does not automatically switch to 3D settings and high lamp mode like my 4810 did. I actually have to go into the menu and make all these settings myself.
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post #13515 of 16290 Old 01-21-2016, 10:45 AM
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I can definitely see that point of view. Even with the better 3D on the new JVCs, I still go back and forth between the 2D and 3D version of a movie as to which experience I prefer. In sheer PQ terms the 2D images have it over the 3D images. But I do enjoy the ability to experience two different versions of a movie. I also find 3D often untangles visual information in really densely populated shots.
2D high contrast scenes with the RS600 are looking more 3 dimensional to me than ever before. Much as I liked a few scenes of Gravity in 3D ( my wife started to get seasick when the camera started rotating ), I just don't find it that compelling. Plus I'd need $ 1200+ worth of 3D glasses, because you have to have enough for everybody, eh? I'd rather throw the cash at 4K upgrades for some really superior 2D images.

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post #13516 of 16290 Old 01-21-2016, 11:28 AM
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I can definitely see that point of view. Even with the better 3D on the new JVCs, I still go back and forth between the 2D and 3D version of a movie as to which experience I prefer. In sheer PQ terms the 2D images have it over the 3D images. But I do enjoy the ability to experience two different versions of a movie. I also find 3D often untangles visual information in really densely populated shots.
Well that would be most everyone's assumption including mine until I worked out a very nice high lamp 3D User setting yesterday and experienced what I did with Pacific Rim and IMAX Under the Sea 3D at less than a screen width's distance 16x9 screen at high FL. And knowing that my tweaking pulled from working sliders as if I was in Photo Shop with a RAW file, while really making me smile now .... probably is not in the same realm as what zombie is getting from one of his specific 3D calibrations with the lens of a pair of glasses factored in to help reach for the most accurate calibration possible. My question to what I bolded of what you said, and I asked it above as well, honestly, what then is going on with this ridiculous "clarity" I am seeing that allows me to sit that close, when with the s.o.t.a. 2D projection, a really sharp 1080P image and great eShift 4 technology for that kind of image.... I feel like I lose quality and sharpness in 2D until I am back 2-4 feet further depending on the transfer? Something is going on with the clarity of 3D on these machines. In a good way, it kind of has a glassy or pure glassy look to it. Have you tried 3D of say Pacific Rim, just for how freaking clean it is, I know you're not a fan of the movie per se) with your biggest 16x9 image on that amazing screen setup of yours with High lamp and 0 iris to try to get as bright an image as you can off your 1.3 Stewart, while seated (looks like pretty close viewing wise) in your comfortable arrangement?

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post #13517 of 16290 Old 01-21-2016, 11:37 AM
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Plus I'd need $ 1200+ worth of 3D glasses, because you have to have enough for everybody, eh?
Does your screen retain polarization? I got some Samsung 3D BT glasses for $20 and they seem good (although I need to do some experiments for reducging ghosting).

One advantage to the 3D on the OLED I bought is that I don't see flicker like with the JVC and 12 pair of glasses cost me $20 total.

I have mentioned before that I wonder as we get HDR content whether some people will prefer to move toward that and away from 3D, since it is likely to be hard to do both well.

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post #13518 of 16290 Old 01-21-2016, 12:00 PM
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Does your screen retain polarization? I got some Samsung 3D BT glasses for $20 and they seem good (although I need to do some experiments for reducging ghosting).

One advantage to the 3D on the OLED I bought is that I don't see flicker like with the JVC and 12 pair of glasses cost me $20 total.

I have mentioned before that I wonder as we get HDR content whether some people will prefer to move toward that and away from 3D, since it is likely to be hard to do both well.

--Darin
It really doesn't do enough for me, although $ 20.00 for 12 pairs of 3D glasses is nothing. Replacing Blu rays with 3D Blu Rays is where the cost would be. With 4K here, I'm putting resources in that direction. I'm always striving for the best 2D picture I can get in my theater. If I'm replacing a Blu ray, it will be with a 4K version at this point.

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post #13519 of 16290 Old 01-21-2016, 12:02 PM
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It really doesn't do enough for me, although $ 20.00 for 12 pairs of 3D glasses is nothing. Replacing Blu rays with 3D Blu Rays is where the cost would be. With 4K here, I'm putting resources in that direction. I'm always striving for the best 2D picture I can get in my theater. If I'm replacing a Blu ray, it will be with a 4K version at this point.
Make sense, but if people just want to try some things then for generally $8 people can rent 3D Blu-rays here:

http://www.store-3d-blurayrental.com/

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post #13520 of 16290 Old 01-21-2016, 12:54 PM
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For some reason, my 600 does not automatically switch to 3D settings and high lamp mode like my 4810 did. I actually have to go into the menu and make all these settings myself.
Ditto. I like the fact that JVC lets you choose low or high lamp for 3D. Epson doesn't.
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post #13521 of 16290 Old 01-21-2016, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
I haven't touched any of the 3D related settings. I put in a 3D movie, the JVC switches automatically to a 3D setting (which puts it on high lamp) and off I go.

I plan to have my calibrator do a 3D setting this weekend.
Well, as you are aware, there is no "off I go" with 3D until the motion processing bug is fixed. Do you have a good ISF calibrator? Anyhow, they may not be aware of the 3D bug.

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This Bug has not affected my projector. If I understand it correctly, it fires up a 3D signal in whatever picture mode you're in .... with CMD on Low whether it was last on that setting or not in that mode? Not happening here with a 500.
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post #13523 of 16290 Old 01-21-2016, 02:41 PM
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Question JVC RS600 vs Sony VPL-VW665ES for 4K

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
2D high contrast scenes with the RS600 are looking more 3 dimensional to me than ever before. Much as I liked a few scenes of Gravity in 3D ( my wife started to get seasick when the camera started rotating ), I just don't find it that compelling. Plus I'd need $ 1200+ worth of 3D glasses, because you have to have enough for everybody, eh? I'd rather throw the cash at 4K upgrades for some really superior 2D images.
Question so is the JVC RS600 is better than the Sony VPL-VW665ES when watching 4K sources?

With this on the horizon http://www.samsung.com/us/video/home-audio/UBD-K8500/ZA

JVC is still a 1080p projector
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post #13524 of 16290 Old 01-21-2016, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
Does your screen retain polarization? I got some Samsung 3D BT glasses for $20 and they seem good (although I need to do some experiments for reducging ghosting).

One advantage to the 3D on the OLED I bought is that I don't see flicker like with the JVC and 12 pair of glasses cost me $20 total.

I have mentioned before that I wonder as we get HDR content whether some people will prefer to move toward that and away from 3D, since it is likely to be hard to do both well.

--Darin
Darin, I'm really curious about your experience owning OLED and the JVC projector.

I don't watch enough TV (mostly movies) to get too excited about a flat panel TV. But of course I would LOVE to have a projector do what OLED can do for contrast/black levels.

So is living with the OLED spoiled you in that regard. Can you still look at your JVC and think "wow that's a great image?"
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post #13525 of 16290 Old 01-21-2016, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post
Question so is the JVC RS600 is better than the Sony VPL-VW665ES when watching 4K sources?

With this on the horizon http://www.samsung.com/us/video/home-audio/UBD-K8500/ZA

JVC is still a 1080p projector
I may be totally out to lunch but from what I've seen here are my thoughts about 4K -- much to do about nothing. Yes, it can look really, really good but that's often 4K stills on a 4K T.V. Video can look pretty amazing but so can 1080p if popper attention is paid.

When I was in Tokyo last spring I saw a demo of 4K vs. 1080p. It was only when I got up close that I could distinctly make out the difference -- I don't sit that close and don't intend to sit that close. I think there's a good chance that physical 4K will have a very tough time in the market place just like SCAD and DVD audio -- there may not be enough demand and with 4K streaming making everything so simple it could be the final nail in 4K BDs coffin because streaming is "good enough". 4K streaming will also include HDR and a wider colour gamut so what's to stop it?

Sony seems to be supporting 4K streaming rather than 4K BD since it has yet to announce a 4K player. The internet seems to be killing everything physical from brick and mortar stores to physical media -- this isn't evolution it's a revolution and we have little choice but to go with the flow.
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post #13526 of 16290 Old 01-21-2016, 03:35 PM
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A discussion of the JVC RS-500 (X7000) is found in the link below, which is the latest AV Forums Podcast. The JVC is discussed around the 20:57 mark.

In the Podcast there is also some discussion about just how good projectors are now and I totally agree (especially after having spent some time with the JVC RS-400, RS-500 and Epson's LS10000). They also mention that the only thing CRT could do better than present day projectors was fade to black. They're simply wrong! The LS10000 does a fade to black every bit as good as my gamma corrected Sony CRT G90 projector did and I had to do back flips across the room to be able to get it to do this. They forget that total fades with a CRT crushed shadow detail and therefore required some fine tuning of gamma. These guys are so biased against DIs that I don't believe they gave the Epson's laser modulation a fair shake -- it's probably one of the best, if not the best, implementation of a DI type device currently in production.

Edit: they also talk about the JVC's light corners and yes they saw them but they claim they don't affect actual content. Yes, they do! At least the light corners of my RS-500 do. Albeit it's only in the darkest scenes and fades but I can definitely see the corners occasionally and it does annoy me -- so close yet so far. These guys should qualify their statements -- they may not see light corners with content but that does not mean that every person won't see light corners with content.

https://www.avforums.com/podcast/avf...ary-2016.12299
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Last edited by nucky; 01-22-2016 at 01:35 PM.
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post #13527 of 16290 Old 01-21-2016, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post
Question so is the JVC RS600 is better than the Sony VPL-VW665ES when watching 4K sources?

With this on the horizon http://www.samsung.com/us/video/home-audio/UBD-K8500/ZA

JVC is still a 1080p projector
Ask Kris Deering. He would know better than me. When I get my Samsung 4K player and the 3 movies I ordered, I'll do a comparison between the RS600 and my VW600 ( sorry - I don't have a VW665 ). Probably 6 - 8 weeks from now. Depending on if everybody hits their ship dates.

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post #13528 of 16290 Old 01-22-2016, 08:56 AM
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Well, as you are aware, there is no "off I go" with 3D until the motion processing bug is fixed. Do you have a good ISF calibrator? Anyhow, they may not be aware of the 3D bug.
I haven't had a single instance of motion processing issues with 3D, though I've seen others report it. I have the issue with CMD being "ON" despite the menu saying otherwise with 4K sources, but not a single hiccup with 3D.

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post #13529 of 16290 Old 01-22-2016, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post
Question so is the JVC RS600 is better than the Sony VPL-VW665ES when watching 4K sources?

With this on the horizon http://www.samsung.com/us/video/home-audio/UBD-K8500/ZA

JVC is still a 1080p projector
I would unquestionably say YES after doing direct side by side comparisons of both projectors with native 4K content. The JVC always matched or exceeded the picture quality of the 665 with native 4K content and on top of that supports full HDMI 2.0A spec and full P3 gamut, neither of which the Sony can do. People can play the numbers game all day, I've compared them both calibrated side by side and the JVC won the day, and there were at least 4 others in the room that said the same thing.

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post #13530 of 16290 Old 01-22-2016, 09:08 AM
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I haven't had a single instance of motion processing issues with 3D, though I've seen others report it. I have the issue with CMD being "ON" despite the menu saying otherwise with 4K sources, but not a single hiccup with 3D.
Yeah, the CMD thing is what I was referring to. Gotta disable it for each viewing.

As for 3D in general, do you or others who aren't into it for a whole film simply switch the glasses to 2D mode? I like that feature. I wonder if properly calibrated 3D when using glasses in 2D mode can look very similar to the 2D blu version?
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