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post #13831 of 13849 Old Yesterday, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by nohjy View Post
All,


I am in the process of considering an upgrade from my trusty X70/RS55 to an X700/RS57. I am mainly interested in the 3D performance, which I believe will be substantially better, and the DI that will improve contrast. What other improvements might I expect? Are there any reasons not to consider the upgrade, is the RS70 better in some respects? Finally, what would be good used price for an X700/RS57?


Many thanks for your input!


John
If you are going to upgrade, I would skip the RS57 and upgrade to the RS400. 3D performance with RS400 will be much better, Projector is much brighter, motion is better, contrast will be close between then, unless you are using the 55 or 57 with the iris closed a fair amount. The 400 also allows you to play 4K BD. If we can help answer your questions, give us a call.

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post #13832 of 13849 Old Yesterday, 03:00 PM
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I just did a quick side by side test with the RS600 and the Sony VW520 and there was 5 people present at this 4 hour test. I calibrated both to rec.709 and a 2.35 power gamma just before the test started so both were showing their best. They were brightness matched at 16fl in both 16x9 mode and 2.35:1 mode and we only tested with BD material as there was no time to check out 4K. The RS600 had 30 hours on it and the Sony VW520 had about 20.

I also took some measurements and the Sony HW520 was quite good when it comes to on/off contrast and it measured about 15000:1 with the iris wide open and about 20000:1 with it closed down in Auto Full it measured 225000:1. It also was almost perfect out of the box with slight oversaturated colors and linear grayscale and gamma. I only did a lightning lut with Calman and an eeColor due to the limited time we had. I will follow this VW520 in the future and will take measurements every 100 hours to see if there is any contrast drop. I also measured the fl with the iris at full open and low lamp and the Sony measured 24 fl and the JVC 28fl and at this setting the JVC has 43000:1 on/off and the Sony 15000:1. Brightness matched at 16fl the JVC has an even greater advantage, I did not measure it (JVC) though. The Sony measured about 18000:1 and I guess the JVC is around 70000:1 at this iris position

First I must say that the iris in the 520 is not very good and it is pumping to much so we left it off during the test and only turned it on in the most dark scenes to see if it matched the JVC (witch we also left off except from the darkest scenes to see the difference). While the JVC iris can have some gamma fluctuations in some scenes that can make it quite annoying, the Sony iris to me is totally unwatchable. I hope Sony adresses this with a firmware update in the future.

Other than this the Sony is a very good machine and it is only very small differences when watching bright material and some scenes the Sony looks a bit better and some the JVC, so who comes out the winner is difficult to say. When it comes medium to dark scenes the Sony can match the JVC quite good in some scenes and in others the JVC looks much better and dark detailed objects in mixed scenes looks much better on the JVC with much more detail and dept and on the Sony it can look quite blurry and flat, this surprised me quite a bit. The JVC looks much more dynamic and shows much more depth in darker scenes, but the Sony alone does not look bad it is only when you see it side by side with the RS600 the 600 makes it look bad.

In the scene in the last Harry Potter movie when Hogwarts is attacked the JVC was so much better in some scenes it was almost silly, the same goes with Zero Dark Thirty when the soldiers attack the Bin Laden house. In some of these scenes the Sony iris got so confused it was pumping like crazy so we turned the iris off on both. This was expected as in scenes like this no projector can match the JVC models.

Even when it comes to sharpness and clarity the JVC is better than the Sony not by a big margin, but the difference is there. How some can see the RS600 as soft I have no idea, but those reporting about softness must have a bad JVC sample as I have seen the VW500 side by side with the VW1000 and the difference in sharpness was very small. I dont have access to a VW1000/1100 anymore, but I am 100% sure the difference would be very small when it comes to clarity and sharpness.

Native motion is slightly better on the Sony, but the difference is not big and the JVC handles motion very well. Fan noise on both in low mode is very good and they are both almost dead silent and I can not tell any difference, the same goes in high mode both are quite loud and there is not a big difference there either.

As this was only a quick test we did not have the time to do this very detailed and the owner took the 520 with him when he left, but there is a small possibility we will do this again some time and maybe check out 4K HDR material also. All in all all 5 of us agreed on the JVC RS600 as the winner with 1080p material and the total difference in PQ the RS600 is the winner by some margin, most due to the superior dark capabilities. Even the VW520 owner agreed on that.

The Sony had RC on 5 and 0 and sharpness at 10, the JVC had MPC set to 3 1 0 0 and eShift off, clear black low both had Darbee at 20%

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post #13833 of 13849 Old Yesterday, 03:55 PM
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Andreas, nice review. How many hours did the Sony have on it?


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post #13834 of 13849 Old Yesterday, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
Andreas, nice review. How many hours did the Sony have on it?
He said the RS600 had 30 hours on it and the VW520 had 20 hours on it.

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post #13835 of 13849 Old Yesterday, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
I just did a quick side by side test with the RS600 and the Sony VW520 and there was 5 people present at this 4 hour test. I calibrated both to rec.709 and a 2.35 power gamma just before the test started so both were showing their best. They were brightness matched at 16fl in both 16x9 mode and 2.35:1 mode and we only tested with BD material as there was no time to check out 4K. The RS600 had 30 hours on it and the Sony VW520 had about 20.

I also took some measurements and the Sony HW520 was quite good when it comes to on/off contrast and it measured about 15000:1 with the iris wide open and about 20000:1 with it closed down in Auto Full it measured 225000:1. It also was almost perfect out of the box with slight oversaturated colors and linear grayscale and gamma. I only did a lightning lut with Calman and an eeColor due to the limited time we had. I will follow this VW520 in the future and will take measurements every 100 hours to see if there is any contrast drop. I also measured the fl with the iris at full open and low lamp and the Sony measured 24 fl and the JVC 28fl and at this setting the JVC has 43000:1 on/off and the Sony 15000:1. Brightness matched at 16fl the JVC has an even greater advantage, I did not measure it (JVC) though. The Sony measured about 18000:1 and I guess the JVC is around 70000:1 at this iris position

First I must say that the iris in the 520 is not very good and it is pumping to much so we left it off during the test and only turned it on in the most dark scenes to see if it matched the JVC (witch we also left off except from the darkest scenes to see the difference). While the JVC iris can have some gamma fluctuations in some scenes that can make it quite annoying, the Sony iris to me is totally unwatchable. I hope Sony adresses this with a firmware update in the future.

Other than this the Sony is a very good machine and it is only very small differences when watching bright material and some scenes the Sony looks a bit better and some the JVC, so who comes out the winner is difficult to say. When it comes medium to dark scenes the Sony can match the JVC quite good in some scenes and in others the JVC looks much better and dark detailed objects in mixed scenes looks much better on the JVC with much more detail and dept and on the Sony it can look quite blurry and flat, this surprised me quite a bit. The JVC looks much more dynamic and shows much more depth in darker scenes, but the Sony alone does not look bad it is only when you see it side by side with the RS600 the 600 makes it look bad.

In the scene in the last Harry Potter movie when Hogwarts is attacked the JVC was so much better in some scenes it was almost silly, the same goes with Zero Dark Thirty when the soldiers attack the Bin Laden house. In some of these scenes the Sony iris got so confused it was pumping like crazy so we turned the iris off on both. This was expected as in scenes like this no projector can match the JVC models.

Even when it comes to sharpness and clarity the JVC is better than the Sony not by a big margin, but the difference is there. How some can see the RS600 as soft I have no idea, but those reporting about softness must have a bad JVC sample as I have seen the VW500 side by side with the VW1000 and the difference in sharpness was very small. I dont have access to a VW1000/1100 anymore, but I am 100% sure the difference would be very small when it comes to clarity and sharpness.

Native motion is slightly better on the Sony, but the difference is not big and the JVC handles motion very well. Fan noise on both in low mode is very good and they are both almost dead silent and I can not tell any difference, the same goes in high mode both are quite loud and there is not a big difference there either.

As this was only a quick test we did not have the time to do this very detailed and the owner took the 520 with him when he left, but there is a small possibility we will do this again some time and maybe check out 4K HDR material also. All in all all 5 of us agreed on the JVC RS600 as the winner with 1080p material and the total difference in PQ the RS600 is the winner by some margin, most due to the superior dark capabilities. Even the VW520 owner agreed on that.

The Sony had RC on 5 and 0 and sharpness at 10, the JVC had MPC set to 3 1 0 0 and eShift off, clear black low both had Darbee at 20%
Like you, I could not see a difference in sharpness, between the VW600 and the VW1000, when watching content. Had them both in my room for a couple months. Now I could easily tell the difference in black level and contrast.

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post #13836 of 13849 Old Yesterday, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
He said the RS600 had 30 hours on it and the VW520 had 20 hours on it.
Thanks - read through too fast.


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post #13837 of 13849 Old Yesterday, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
Thanks - read through too fast.
No problem. I miss things too at times.

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post #13838 of 13849 Old Yesterday, 08:58 PM
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[QUOTE=Andreas21;41263481]Even when it comes to sharpness and clarity the JVC is better than the Sony not by a big margin, but the difference is there. How some can see the RS600 as soft I have no idea, but those reporting about softness must have a bad JVC sample as I have seen the VW500 side by side with the VW1000 and the difference in sharpness was very small. I dont have access to a VW1000/1100 anymore, but I am 100% sure the difference would be very small when it comes to clarity and sharpness.[QUOTE]

Thanks for the review. I agree with you on the sharpness of the JVC. The RS600 has a nice lens and is the sharpest projector I've owned to date.
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post #13839 of 13849 Unread Today, 03:48 AM
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Here are some closeups taken with an iPhone 6 by my friend Didrik to show the sharpness difference between the RS600 and VW520, bot were adjusted to perfect focus with TED´s Lightspace Disc´s incredible sharpness testpattern and you could see the pixels of the Sony, but the iphone could not pick it up. This is representable of what we saw on screen and I was quite surprised that the 1080p JVC was sharper and more defined than the 4K Sony. The picture with the Warning sign is with e-Shift on on the JVC and it is to show that even with e-Shift on the JVC looked sharper and more defined.

The iris was on when these pictures was taken and that is why the part of the space ship in Avatar is dimmer, because the iris if the Sony did something. The Sony was actually half a fl brighter than the JVC. This was the first clip we saw and we turned off the iris on both after this because the iris on the Sony was unwatchable.

The image noise people are talking about in the JVC vs the Sony is only there with e-Shift engaged, and with this years e-Shift the noise levels have gone down and is is not a big difference between the Sony and JVC in this regard.
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The Sony will be processing any 1080P content whereas the JVC can have e-shift disabled. I'm not sure if Lumagen has a 4K processor yet, but perhaps that combo will take the Sony performance up quite a bit?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jh901 View Post
The Sony will be processing any 1080P content whereas the JVC can have e-shift disabled. I'm not sure if Lumagen has a 4K processor yet, but perhaps that combo will take the Sony performance up quite a bit?
A Lumagen prosessor will not make the Sony look sharper. And we where not testing external prosessors here, but how they look with 1080p content.

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If you want a JVC with better 3D performance, I think you should be looking at one of the new line (RS400/500/600), I've been pretty disappointed by the 3D on my RS4910.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
A Lumagen prosessor will not make the Sony look sharper. And we where not testing external prosessors here, but how they look with 1080p content.
Why wouldn't a high-end external video processor improve natural sharpness of 1080P content on a 4K display? I do get your point (on JVC v. Sony), but since many forum members want a processor anyhow (for calibration, etc), then it's important to keep in mind that Sony's processing may not be nearly as good as the Lumagen offering.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jh901 View Post
Why wouldn't a high-end external video processor improve natural sharpness of 1080P content on a 4K display? I do get your point (on JVC v. Sony), but since many forum members want a processor anyhow (for calibration, etc), then it's important to keep in mind that Sony's processing may not be nearly as good as the Lumagen offering.
The Lumagen processing might be better (no ring) but it will not make the VW520/665 look sharper as it will actually make it look a bit softer due to the no ring scaling and the fact that Sonys RC introduces a little edge enhancement.

Me personally threw my Lumagen out when I discovered all the negatives it did to my VW1000 projector at the time.

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Originally Posted by jh901 View Post
The Sony will be processing any 1080P content whereas the JVC can have e-shift disabled. I'm not sure if Lumagen has a 4K processor yet, but perhaps that combo will take the Sony performance up quite a bit?
The picture with the warning sign was with E-shift on, so both projectors are upconverting the image. Still pretty easy to tell which one is sharper.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
The Lumagen processing might be better (no ring) but it will not make the VW520/665 look sharper as it will actually make it look a bit softer due to the no ring scaling and the fact that Sonys RC introduces a little edge enhancement.

Me personally threw my Lumagen out when I discovered all the negatives it did to my VW1000 projector at the time.
Funny thing is, the Lumagen image was the more correct image, but some people prefered the Sony image with RC on. The little bit of ringing caused by RC gave the impression of a sharper image. Not saying right or wrong, but to many people RC did look better.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Funny thing is, the Lumagen image was the more correct image, but some people prefered the Sony image with RC on. The little bit of ringing caused by RC gave the impression of a sharper image. Not saying right or wrong, but to many people RC did look better.
Yup, as I've mentioned that was the case for me. I tried my Lumagen's no ring scaling for DVD and preferred my Oppo's scaling, and I tried the Lumagen upscaling to 4K and the only thing I could perceive was a distinctly softer looking image compared to letting the JVC doing it.

After that experience it was actually a surprise to me to see my Lumagen's anamorphic scaling looked better than the JVC's - sharper and more precise. This is one reason I would have a hard time getting rid of my Lumagen - once I'm watching the largest possible image, the better looking scaling becomes even more vital.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

Me personally threw my Lumagen out when I discovered all the negatives it did to my VW1000 projector at the time.
I doubt that the Lumagen image deviated from the source more than what the Sony does. I realize that we can get into "personal opinion", etc., but there is a right and wrong when it comes to fidelity to a source.

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Originally Posted by jh901 View Post
I doubt that the Lumagen image deviated from the source more than what the Sony does. I realize that we can get into "personal opinion", etc., but there is a right and wrong when it comes to fidelity to a source.
Yep and that is why I said, I would stay out of the right or wrong.

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