Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 464 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #13891 of 13918 Unread 02-09-2016, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Do they happen to mention what kind of download speeds they have or what cables they are using? Seems at least half the time people have issues, the new piece of equipment gets the blame when it is the innocent party.
I don't remember mention of download speeds.
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post #13892 of 13918 Unread 02-09-2016, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by RonF View Post
I love it. Hard core. And I do agree Pacific Rim in 3D is amazing. Pacific Rim 8' away from an 8' 5" wide 16x9 2.8 HP screen presentation, with the lamp on High and the iris down around -10 to -12 and DI on auto 1 = 3D you don't see anywhere because it's at even higher than the new reference levels of Dolby and IMAX FL coming off their screens..... with such high dynamic range from my RS500 and all the dark and mid level APL scenes and deep shadow detail mixed with brilliant highlights and bright colors that just pop in this movie.
I bet! Man, I would LOVE to see Pacific Rim in 3d on the RS500 with all that contrast, especially with your HP screen!
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post #13893 of 13918 Unread 02-09-2016, 09:50 PM - Thread Starter
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I haven't done so because I watch very little TV (virtually none) and prefer Blu-Ray quality over streaming. Plus, I don't have an AV receiver or VP that can pass or switch 4K sources, meaning for now I can only have one 4K source sent to the remaining HDMI input of the JVC. So I can't do both the Roku for 4K and the Samsung.

Hence...I was really hoping the Samsung could also be a decent streaming/youtube access option for 4K as well.

The problems I've read so far in the Samsung owners thread is that people seem to be having a tough time actually streaming 4K, if the Samsung is compatible with lots of the youtube 4K encoding, or determining IF the stream is 4K
at all.

it looks like a few new reports from folks that were fine streaming 4K from Youtube. it should be here tomorrow, I should have a chance to check this out tomorrow night.

edit: I have a 50Mb FIOS connection
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post #13894 of 13918 Unread 02-09-2016, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
So who is lining up to pre-order one of those expensive upcoming BenQ or Optoma projectors?

They are really going to have to pull off a miracle here and improve the stagnant native contrast that has haunted DLP's. + the premiere of this new DLP panel is being hosted by 2 companies that have less than stellar track records in recent years
I predict 2000:1 native, 10000:1 dynamic (useful) contrast. There's no way they could reach 10000:1 native.
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post #13895 of 13918 Unread 02-10-2016, 09:28 AM - Thread Starter
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post #13896 of 13918 Unread 02-10-2016, 09:39 AM
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zombie,

I'm very glad you were able to get a player this soon. Usually we have to wade through newbies who get anticipated new gear first "Well, I got the new X, I'm no expert and it looks good to me" kind of stuff. (I think the first person who got the Samsung UHD player in that thread didn't even have a 4K TV, only 1080p!).

We know you'll put this thing, and the new UHD BDs through their paces!

(And it looks like I'll be stuck relying on competent reports for quite a while, since my Samsung player has been delayed to to "not in stock" status).
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post #13897 of 13918 Unread 02-10-2016, 11:20 AM
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@zombie10k Yeah, everyone is talking about UHD's but I'm more interested to hear how it performs as a streaming device (both local and internet content)? Appears to support a lot of formats but I haven't seen any reports on performance. Would love to hear your thoughts on if it's up to the task of replacing any of your current devices?
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post #13898 of 13918 Unread 02-10-2016, 11:23 AM
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Well, I'll have a couple weeks to try all that out too. I wonder if Plex will work on it:
http://www.samsung.com/levant/smarth...apps_plex.html

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #13899 of 13918 Unread 02-10-2016, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post
I bet! Man, I would LOVE to see Pacific Rim in 3d on the RS500 with all that contrast, especially with your HP screen!
I watched Pacific Rim in 3d last night for the first time and it was amazing on the RS600. Probably the best 3d I've watched so far on the 600. I always watched it in 2d when I had my RS4810 because 3d was too dim on the size screen I am using with that projector. Plus 3d on the 4810 wasn't very good anyway, unlike the 600 which is excellent with 3d titles.
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post #13900 of 13918 Unread 02-10-2016, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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it would be great if it could play my 2D and 3D MKV's. These are full 1:1 rips just with all the extras removed. That is the great thing about the mede8ter, it's very fast to play the movies and scrubs quickly through the timeline.

stanger how are you using it with your 4910, do you have one of those HDFury devices?

This is one of those times I'd like to compare the 4910 e-shift to the current gen to see if the UHD content looks any different.
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post #13901 of 13918 Unread 02-10-2016, 02:10 PM
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It acts like a regular Blue-ray player when hooked up to a non-2.0a device, and can even downrez to 1080p if the media allows it.

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post #13902 of 13918 Unread 02-10-2016, 02:42 PM
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stanger how are you using it with your 4910, do you have one of those HDFury devices?
Yup, I've got an Integral, I'm hoping the PQ curve/remastering/encoding will be a noticeable improvement over BD, guess we'll see.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #13903 of 13918 Unread 02-10-2016, 02:47 PM
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Yup, I've got an Integral, I'm hoping the PQ curve/remastering/encoding will be a noticeable improvement over BD, guess we'll see.

I will be interested in your impression, have been contemplating grabbing an HDfury for my X500. Would like to hold off on upgrading for at least one more year, but still get some benefit from UHD players.

It's always in the last place you look.
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post #13904 of 13918 Unread 02-10-2016, 04:13 PM - Thread Starter
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another member posted this in the JVC thread. There will be a quiz on this entire workflow, study up..


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post #13905 of 13918 Unread 02-10-2016, 04:19 PM
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another member posted this in the JVC thread. There will be a quiz on this entire workflow, study up..


Am I missing something, but I don't see up convert HD -> UHD or is that implied?

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post #13906 of 13918 Unread 02-11-2016, 01:36 AM
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And this must work seamlessly over the hdmi interface.


Last edited by Frank Derks; 02-11-2016 at 02:03 PM. Reason: e
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post #13907 of 13918 Unread 02-11-2016, 06:26 PM - Thread Starter
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post #13908 of 13918 Unread 02-11-2016, 06:32 PM
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fire up the coffee maker.

Can't wait to hear your thoughts.
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post #13909 of 13918 Unread 02-11-2016, 08:08 PM - Thread Starter
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post #13910 of 13918 Unread 02-11-2016, 08:29 PM
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Can't believe he's makiing us wait this long
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post #13911 of 13918 Unread 02-11-2016, 09:58 PM
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This looks interesting: http://www.lighting.philips.com/main...echnology.html

I'm conducting the hype train,Chugga Chugga Choo Choooooooo!

Respectfully,
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post #13912 of 13918 Unread 02-11-2016, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hatcher View Post
This looks interesting: http://www.lighting.philips.com/main...echnology.html

I'm conducting the hype train,Chugga Chugga Choo Choooooooo!

For projector screens up to 100", who has that anymore???

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post #13913 of 13918 Unread 02-11-2016, 10:24 PM
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For projector screens up to 100", who has that anymore???
Bedroom, bathroom, kids room, etc... I mean the possibilities are endless here!

Really though, the LG ultra short throw pumps out ~1000 lumens and this is supposed to be 3x brighter, so color me intrigued. I would imagine you could move it a little further out from the wall and get 120"+ image that is still plenty bright. Either way, it's pretty interesting tech. I'm just ready to throw my last lamp in the garbage and be done worrying with it for 5+ years. I use two JVC lamps per year, that's lame, and pricey.

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post #13914 of 13918 Unread 02-12-2016, 09:19 PM
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If you go by use, then my go to display is a 52" TV. I certainly would not use that criteria to say that my TV is my best display. Rather than use that as a basis, I would use, what display do you use for critical viewing. It may be the same display, but I think that is a better judge.
Come on now. Give DejaVu a break. He's comparing Projectors, not PJ's (Apples) to TV's (Oranges).
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post #13915 of 13918 Unread Yesterday, 08:17 PM
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Sorry for the wall of text:

Today I traveled to western Massachusetts to visit a forum member whose dealer had an Epson LS10000 we could use for a fun little shootout. Bob (ultra 150 pilot on the forum) was nice enough to have me over for the afternoon and to use his theater for the shootout. I brought with me a JVC DLA-RS400 and JVC DLA-RS500. Unfortunately we didn't spend anywhere near as much time as we did last year doing side-by-side brightness matched comparisons when we compared the LS10000 to the JVC DLA-X500. We actually spent a decent amount of time measuring the LS10000 before and after the firmware update. Bob's dealer (who is also named Bob haha) received one of the first LS10000's in the country when they were released last year and as such it had a very old firmware on it. It was V114, which I believe was older than any other on the forum that I've seen mentioned thus far. A month or two ago there was a claim of a decent lumen increase after the firmware update from V115 to V130 so this is why we wanted to measured before and after the update. The projector was ceiling mounted and the lens itself was never changed (zoom) before and after the update. The update went smoothly (took about 3 minutes) and we went back and did the same brightness measurements. There was zero change in lumen output. Actually there was a TINY decrease in lumen output after the update. By tiny I mean 2-3% decrease in lumen out. This unit has 519 hours on it so the laser itself is well settled.

With that said I think I know where the claim that the lumen output increase comes from. I say this because the Epson sample we measured today was CONSIDERABLY brighter than any of the other early LS10000 reviews claim. These were the results with the lens at max zoom and the iris fully open and then closed:

Iris Closed: 17.9 ftL - 844 Lumens
Iris Open: 27.6 ftL - 1302 Lumens

For contrast with the iris open (max zoom) we measured a little under 15000:1

So these numbers do show that maybe the light source itself gets brighter after a few hundred hours of use. This is just my guess OR there might just be a ton of variability in lumen output between these units. I remember Kris Deering talking about how his sample unit was much brighter than the ~1000 lumens or so that many of the other reviews were claiming. But I think it's definitely fair to say that the firmware has NO bearing on the increase in lumen output with this machine. I think it's either luck of the draw or the laser/phosphor wheel gets 20-30% brighter after it has a decent amount of hours on it. I think it's the latter because I don't remember this unit being anywhere near this bright when we used it to compare it against the X500 last year. As far as e-shift goes I can't equivocally say anything. IIRC both Bob's took a hard look at the eshift performance before the update. Bob, the dealer, said it looked "a little better." But he also noted there was definitely still a soft, not-focused look to the image with eshift on. All three of us made the agreement with that. We would argue that unless you're watching 4K content it would be best to disable eshift. We didn't get a chance to compare it to the JVC's eshift performance but I've spent a great deal of time with generation 1-4 eshift on the JVC and all four of them beat the Epson'e implementation as far as that out-of-focus look the Epson has. You still get a less delineated pixel-free image with eshift on the JVC, but it doesn't have that out-of-focus look the Epson has.

The only side-by-side comparison we did was with the Epson and RS400. For me, at least, I thought the JVC was the clear winner with the content we watched Much greater image depth due to the far higher native contrast. The image simply popped quite a bit more. We looked at the RS500 alone with the same content and the amount of contrast was even greater. I will say the Epson did show more shadow detail compared to the JVCs but I'd chalk that up to not having the projector properly tweaked for his room/screen. We simply did not have time to calibrate all 5 projectors we looked at over the course of the day. The Epson looked "cleaner" with some content. With that said all three of us remember the X500 comparison and the JVC RS400/RS500 definitely lack some of the image noise that the X500 had in it's image. These new JVCs don't add image noise to the video. I have no way to prove it, but I think the video processing in the Epson has some sort of noise filter built into it. Because we I showed Bob and Bob a static image with my HTPC there was literally no noise visible within the image. This was something you could easily see in the image up close with older JVCs. Not so anymore.

I don't think we needed to spend as much time doing some of the A/B tests we did last year. From what I've seen JVC has widened the gap ever further this year so it kind of made those same comparisons superfluous. In my opinion the Epson doesn't really stand a chance when you consider the contrast gap with basically everything else being equal or better on the JVC. That's not to say that the Epson looks bad. It doesn't and is by far their greatest projector to date in terms of overall PQ. We actually spent quite a bit of time today discussing how this forum nit-picks far too much. I agree and am definitely one of those people. Anyone without the context we nit-pickers posses would be satisfied with any one of these units. But in terms of value we all agreed the RS400 is by far the best deal. Bob, the host, said several times he loves what the laser offers (long life consistent calibration and lumen output and no need to worry about how many times you turn it on or off) but just doesn't see the value proposition at it's current price point. The street price being so high is the main reason he chooses not to own it even though it's the unit he'd prefer to own. He realizes the performance might be a little less on the Epson compared to the JVC, but the quality of the laser is something that appeals to him very much. That slightly cleaner look on the Epson was also something he preferred over the JVC. I tried to make the argument that the Epson seems to be taking some detail out by removing image noise, but to Bob it's something he'd prefer to give him the type of image he wants. For me, if it's there in the source I want to see it and with how quickly I go through units, the laser offers me little, so it's not something I'd want to pay a hefty premium for. In a couple years we might see these light source altogether replace bulbs in the $3000+ market and then we probably won't see such a premium for it.

And while the three of us didn't get to A/B all three units we did spend a ton of time with LS10000 up on screen and I'm very familiar with the image of my RS500. I'm still partial to the RS500's image. We enabled the "fast" DI mode on the Epson to see how it handled the beginning of Star Wars Episode 3. I'm just not a fan of how it works with fade to blacks. It's too obvious in it's operation for me and with the crawling text the dynamic gamma was changing the color of the text from yellow to orange. Yuck. I really like how you can set a manual iris setting on the JVC and obtain better contrast (and brightness if you choose) than the Epson can do dynamically and NEVER worry about the image looking wonky. I told Bob that why I appreciate the JVCs so much. There's no need to manipulate the image to get an amazing looking image.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
My Crazy Projector Journey!!
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post #13916 of 13918 Unread Yesterday, 08:17 PM
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Sorry for the wall of text:

Today I traveled to western Massachusetts to visit a forum member whose dealer had an Epson LS10000 we could use for a fun little shootout. Bob (ultra 150 pilot on the forum) was nice enough to have me over for the afternoon and to use his theater for the shootout. I brought with me a JVC DLA-RS400 and JVC DLA-RS500. Unfortunately this time we didn't spend anywhere near as much time as we did last year doing side-by-side brightness matched comparisons when we compared the LS10000 to the JVC DLA-X500. We actually spent a decent amount of time measuring the LS10000 before and after the firmware update. Bob's dealer (who is also named Bob haha) received one of the first LS10000's in the country when they were released last year and as such it had a very old firmware on it. It was V114, which I believe was older than any other on the forum that I've seen mentioned thus far. A month or two ago there was a claim of a decent lumen increase after the firmware update from V115 to V130 so this is why we wanted to measured before and after the update. The projector was ceiling mounted and the lens itself was never changed (zoom) before and after the update. The update went smoothly (took about 3 minutes) and we went back and did the same brightness measurements. There was zero change in lumen output. Actually there was a TINY decrease in lumen output after the update. By tiny I mean 2-3% decrease in lumen out. This unit has 519 hours on it so the laser itself is well settled.

With that said I think I know where the claim that the lumen output increase comes from. I say this because the Epson sample we measured today was CONSIDERABLY brighter than any of the other early LS10000 reviews claim. These were the results with the lens at max zoom and the iris fully open and then closed:

Iris Closed: 17.9 ftL - 844 Lumens
Iris Open: 27.6 ftL - 1302 Lumens

For contrast with the iris open (max zoom) we measured a little under 15000:1

So these numbers do show that maybe the light source itself gets brighter after a few hundred hours of use. This is just my guess OR there might just be a ton of variability in lumen output between these units. I remember Kris Deering talking about how his sample unit was much brighter than the ~1000 lumens or so that many of the other reviews were claiming. But I think it's definitely fair to say that the firmware has NO bearing on the increase in lumen output with this machine. I think it's either luck of the draw or the laser/phosphor wheel gets 20-30% brighter after it has a decent amount of hours on it. I think it's the latter because I don't remember this unit being anywhere near this bright when we used it to compare it against the X500 last year. As far as e-shift goes I can't unequivocally say anything. IIRC both Bob's took a hard look at the eshift performance before the update. Bob, the dealer, said it looked "a little better." But he also noted there was definitely still a soft, not-focused look to the image with eshift on. All three of us made the agreement with that. We would argue that unless you're watching 4K content it would be best to disable eshift. We didn't get a chance to compare it to the JVC's eshift performance but I've spent a great deal of time with generation 1-4 eshift on the JVC and all four of them beat the Epson'e implementation as far as that out-of-focus look the Epson has goes. You still get a less delineated pixel-free image with eshift on the JVC, but it doesn't have that out-of-focus look the Epson has.

The only side-by-side comparison we did was with the Epson and RS400. For me, at least, I thought the JVC was the clear winner with the content we watched Much greater image depth due to the far higher native contrast. The image simply popped quite a bit more. We looked at the RS500 alone with the same content and the amount of contrast was even greater. That's really all the RS500 has over the RS400 in terms of raw image quality potential. I will say the Epson did show more shadow detail compared to the JVCs but I'd chalk that up to not having the projector properly tweaked for his room/screen. We simply did not have time to calibrate all 5 projectors we looked at over the course of the day. The Epson looked "cleaner" with some content. With that said all three of us remember the X500 comparison and the JVC RS400/RS500 definitely lack some of the image noise that the X500 had in it's image. These new JVCs don't add image noise to the video. I have no way to prove it, but I think the video processing in the Epson has some sort of noise filter built into it. Because when I showed Bob and Bob a static image with my HTPC there was literally no noise visible within the image. It appeared perfectly clean and stable. So unless the JVC is somehow selectively choosing when to add noise I don't think the JVC is ever adding any and rather the Epson is simply muting some of it.

I don't think we needed to spend as much time doing some of the A/B tests we did last year. From what I've seen JVC has widened the gap ever further this year so it kind of made those same comparisons superfluous. In my opinion the Epson doesn't really stand a chance when you consider the contrast gap with basically everything else being equal or better on the JVC. That's not to say that the Epson looks bad. It doesn't and is by far their greatest projector to date in terms of overall PQ. We actually spent quite a bit of time today discussing how this forum nit-picks far too much. I agree and am definitely one of those people. Anyone without the context we nit-pickers posses would be satisfied with any one of these units. But in terms of value we all agreed the RS400 is by far the best deal. Bob, the host, said several times he loves what the laser offers (long life consistent calibration and lumen output and no need to worry about how many times you turn it on or off) but just doesn't see the value proposition at it's current price point. The street price being so high is the main reason he chooses not to own it even though it's the unit he'd prefer to own. He realizes the performance might be a little less on the Epson compared to the JVC, but the quality of the laser is something that appeals to him very much. That slightly cleaner look on the Epson was also something he preferred over the JVC. I tried to make the argument that the Epson seems to be taking some detail out by removing image noise, but to Bob it's something he'd prefer to give him the type of image he wants. For me, if it's there in the source I want to see it and with how quickly I go through units, the laser offers me little, so it's not something I'd want to pay a hefty premium for. In a couple years we might see this light source altogether replace bulbs in the $3000+ market and then we probably won't see such a premium for it.

And while the three of us didn't get to A/B all three units we did spend a ton of time with LS10000 up on screen and I'm very familiar with the image of my RS500. I'm still partial to the RS500's image. We enabled the "fast" DI mode on the Epson to see how it handled the beginning of Star Wars Episode 3. I chose this because there's a few fade to blacks and it's nice and contrasty I'm just not a fan of how it works with fade to blacks. It's too obvious in it's operation for me. The light would pop in and out of existence (which was obvious to me) and with the crawling text the dynamic gamma was changing the color of the text from yellow to orange. Yuck. It's just not for me. I really like how you can set a manual iris setting on the JVC and obtain better contrast (and brightness if you choose) than the Epson can do dynamically and NEVER worry about the image looking wonky. I told Bob that why I appreciate the JVCs so much. There's no need to manipulate the image to get an amazing looking image.

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My Crazy Projector Journey!!

Last edited by Seegs108; Yesterday at 08:31 PM.
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Hello Seegs,

Well, your write up is actually rather balanced and thoughtful and I enjoyed reading the review which is a bonus. As an LS10000 owner I wish you liked its performance more but you have given your reasons and that's OK with me. Your findings regarding the light output are in line with my own which is refreshing. It seems that e-shift is one of those things one either likes or dislikes on the LS10000. As for the dynamic laser, a good friend of mine feels similarly to you, that it is gimmicky. Whereas I love its operation. The normal setting might be more acceptable to some and I think this is a personal choice at the end of the day. Oddly I am not getting the gamma colour shifts you describe. I havn't see it at all on Star Wars episode 3 but I'll have another look. It was obviously occurring on your unit. My unit is a good 14 months older so just maybe something has changed but I'll report back for completeness.

One thing I do agree on is the incredible value of the RS400. I still have no idea how JVC packed so much in to such a reasonably priced projector. A contender for the bargain of the century for sure.
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Regarding the 4K enhancement settings on the Epson LS10000, as we know, some reviewers do comment that they think the 4K enhancement makes the image look softer and advise not using it.

My opinion after watching nearly 50 movies on the Epson so far is that for most high quality blu-rays its better ON at level 4K-1. For me, it adds an analogue/filmic look to the image with no loss of detail. For additional sharpness you can of course use 4K-2 to 5.

A good example is "The Adventures of TinTin". With 4K enhancement OFF, yes, it looks razor sharp and very satisfying, however, with 4K enhancement ON it looks even better.
Other standout examples I can think of are "The Equaliser", "Hancock", "Lone Survivor", "The Last Stand".
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