Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 466 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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Old 02-15-2016, 04:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
It's a good theory but this is the exact same unit we used last year when we compared it to the X500. It was not this bright last year. The only thing that's changed is the amount of hours on the unit. This one now has a little over 500 hours on it. It might just be the laser/phosphor wheel gets brighter after some hours are put on it. I think some people also said something similar with LEDs, but no where near this amount extra. We did briefly go through some of the IRE test patterns with a DVDO 4K signal/pattern generator. I saw no obvious signs of color non-uniformity. This specific unit appeared to be as good as my JVCs. Not perfect, but something you'd only notice on test patterns, never real content. Both the JVCs and Epson LS10000 looked quite a bit better with color uniformity compared to the $28000 Sony 1100ES I had here.
I've been told by a reliable source who used to work at Epson that these laser projectors perform some kind of wear-compensation every 100 hours. It uses at internal sensor to adjust for aging. I think I remember Runco mentioning something similar for the q750i. JVC also lists such a feature for their simulation laser projectors. Maybe that explains your results. When I called him out on the laser reliability concerns, my source claimed that these projectors have been in R&D testing for many years prior to release and they were very confident of their long lifetimes.

I forgot to mention in my report that the second unit had the unstable focus I saw mentioned by Ekki. My dealer said he had to re-focus the unit before every demo.
First demo unit didn't have this problem. I guess the good news is that Epson has the best industry warranty. The bad news is that you're more likely to need it.

I'm still considering this projector because of the excessive JVC lamp flicker. When you guys had the HTPC connected and displayed a Windows desktop, did nobody notice the flicker? Large, solid color backgrounds like that were the worst offenders for me. I guess there's a slim chance the lamp would settle with extended usage but that could be a costly gamble if it doesn't.
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Old 02-15-2016, 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
We did briefly go through some of the IRE test patterns with a DVDO 4K signal/pattern generator. I saw no obvious signs of color non-uniformity. This specific unit appeared to be as good as my JVCs. Not perfect, but something you'd only notice on test patterns, never real content. Both the JVCs and Epson LS10000 looked quite a bit better with color uniformity compared to the $28000 Sony 1100ES I had here.
I usually notice color uniformity issues more in content than static test patterns. This is especially true of black&white content. What happens is that as camera or objects pan across the screen, you will see them change color as they enter and leave the discolored part of the screen. This was very apparent on both of the Epsons. My old JVC RS40 had it to a much smaller degree and acceptable. I didn't have enough time with the RS600 to properly test it and didn't care as much because I couldn't keep it due to flicker.
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Old 02-15-2016, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
This seems starnge that the brightness on the RS500 was less than the RS400, the specs list the 400 as lower.
Not sure what to tell ya, we spent about an hour going back and forth measuring each unit multiple times...
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Old 02-15-2016, 08:25 AM
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Zombie, have you post your first impressions on the UltraHD 4K blu ray on the JVC?

Did you get the chance to compare the blu ray vs the UltraHD 4k?

Many reports on the Samsung player but no so much on image quality.
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Old 02-15-2016, 08:50 AM
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At CEDIA year before last, people asked me what I thought of the LS10000, right after seeing it. I told them I was disappointed and at that time I thought we would be selling it. The LS10000 had RS4910 performance, but much higher price point. I did not think that the laser justified the selling price of the projector. Also what turned me off was Epson not answering my question on the light source being replaceable out of warranty. The LS10000 did have better 3D performance than the RS4910. Now we have the RS400. The RS400 has more brightness, a little higher native contrast, full 18 Gbps HDMI 2.0a, HDR (no DCI P3 filter) and is half the price.

With the new JVC's I just do not see the performance to value of the LS10000. It is not just the LS10000 that does not compare well in the performance to value of the JVC. Good chance we will be selling the Epson this fall. I hope that Epson revises the LS10000 with improvements in contrast, brightness and value, if not then I still think it is a hard sell over the JVC's. Also make the light source replaceable or offer longer warranty on the light source. If there are no worries on the longevity of the light source, then it would cost Epson nothing to offer longer light source warranty. Not expecting a 20,000 hour light source warranty. A 3 year on the projector and 5 year on the light source would be good enough for me.
Mike and I discussed this about a week ago. This started back in '11 at Cedia. Epson was bringing out their LCOQ. Of course it never happened do to manufacturing issues. Fast forward to '14, they combine LCOQ and laser. Everyone at Cedia was excited about the potential. The demo was underwhelming to say the least and the guy running it sucked (to put it mildly). He didn't want to answer even basic tech questions.

Combine all of this with the price and you have a healthy bit of skepticism. A year later and we find that QC is not up to snuff.

I doubt anyone attending Cedia that year was anything less than excited to have their socks knocked off. Unfortunately, the result since has been anything but.

I agree with Mike. If they are confident in their laser, then extend the warranty out. Buyers are putting faith in Epson's new tech lasting, but history has shown that isn't always the case.

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Old 02-15-2016, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by ultra 150 pilot View Post
Not sure what to tell ya, we spent about an hour going back and forth measuring each unit multiple times...

I mentioned several times in my posts found in this thread that my RS400 was brighter than the RS500, contrary to the published specs -- and that's just eyeing it. I guess my eyes still work -- though I suspect a number of people here think at best I'm legally blind.


As far as the Epson is concerned the fact that people saw it demoed at CES and didn't particularly like it should be taken with a grain of salt. Demos are largely dependent upon those who set them up and as people mentioned here the person responsible for the Epson demo didn't particularly seem to know his stuff.


I've actually set this projector up in my own HT along with the JVCs so I could determine for myself how each fared rather than depending on others' observations. Granted I use a screen that most don't and that certainly has a bearing on what I'm seeing.


I'm keeping all three -- that's how good I think they are and I will say the Epson is not embarrassed by the JVCs in any way from what I'm seeing -- though the JVCs definitely have an edge for 3D.
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Old 02-15-2016, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post
Zombie, have you post your first impressions on the UltraHD 4K blu ray on the JVC?

Did you get the chance to compare the blu ray vs the UltraHD 4k?

Many reports on the Samsung player but no so much on image quality.
Rick, hi not yet. As Ron and some others have mentioned, it doesn't look entirely 'right' even with the Gamma D setting adjustments. Ideally we'd be able to view it without the HDR until JVC refines the parameters.

Manni - will this be possible with the HDFury? What would the Samsung player do with a UHD capable TV/Projector that wasn't HDR capable?
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Old 02-15-2016, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Rick, hi not yet. As Ron and some others have mentioned, it doesn't look entirely 'right' even with the Gamma D setting adjustments. Ideally we'd be able to view it without the HDR until JVC refines the parameters.

Manni - will this be possible with the HDFury? What would the Samsung player do with a UHD capable TV/Projector that wasn't HDR capable?
So, there isn't a way to turn off the HDR and just calibrate to the wider color gamut to watch the UHD discs?
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Old 02-15-2016, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
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So, there isn't a way to turn off the HDR and just calibrate to the wider color gamut to watch the UHD discs?
correct, there is currently no way to turn the HDR off in the JVC menu. nor the Samsung player since it sees the JVC as an HDR capable device. I believe this can be done with the HDFury but waiting for confirmation. I ordered one anyway since it seems like a handy device to have.
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Old 02-15-2016, 11:01 AM
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correct, there is currently no way to turn the HDR off in the JVC menu. nor the Samsung player since it sees the JVC as an HDR capable device. I believe this can be done with the HDFury but waiting for confirmation. I ordered one anyway since it seems like a handy device to have.

Would an AVR that has HDMI 2.0 but not 2.0a be able to pass WCG?
Of course the HDR would be left behind but wondering if the JVC RS500/600 still could get by with WCG.
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Old 02-15-2016, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Rick, hi not yet. As Ron and some others have mentioned, it doesn't look entirely 'right' even with the Gamma D setting adjustments. Ideally we'd be able to view it without the HDR until JVC refines the parameters.

Manni - will this be possible with the HDFury? What would the Samsung player do with a UHD capable TV/Projector that wasn't HDR capable?
I was just posting over there, it sounds like it's possible to pick an Rec.2020 without HDR EDID in the Integral. I intend to try this with my RS4910, it seems possible create a custom auto-cal gamut for Rec.2020.
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Old 02-15-2016, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
I agree. Every measurement that I have seen, shows them nearly the same with a slight advantage to the 500.
I suppose there could be some unit to unit variation out there where some RS400s are running a little on the brighter side.
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Old 02-15-2016, 04:20 PM
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Epson or other manufacturers of laser devices are not worried about the laser. It is not a bulb and doesn't blow like bulbs. Phosphor does wear out but that doesn't blow either and its decay rate is well known. Even after 20-30,000 hours I bet the lasers will still be running fine but light output will be reduced and more likely because of phosphor wear. Unlike bulbs, lasers are typically rated to 80% output. I don't know if that is true for the Epson or JVC laser projectors but some of the others are rated this way. Laser projection systems have been around since the 90s for commercial specialty applications. Some don't understand lasers and think they are like bulbs. If manufacturers believed it would fail, they would make it replaceable. It is profitable for manufacturers to sell consumables. Some laser applications use laser tubes which are replaceable but that is not this type of laser. Many parts have a MTBF less than the laser. Every projector has its advantages and people need to decide which attributes are best suited for their application and a laser is an advantage.
It is easily replaceable on the Sony, not so on the Epson. If it is so worry free, why did Epson not just increase the warranty period for the light source alone. If the part does not fail, it would cost them nothing to do so.
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Old 02-15-2016, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
It is easily replaceable on the Sony, not so on the Epson. If it is so worry free, why did Epson not just increase the warranty period for the light source alone. If the part does not fail, it would cost them nothing to do so.
That would certainly be nice, and remove some hesitation from a high cost purchase.
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Old 02-15-2016, 07:14 PM
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Zombie,

Have you try cranking up the contrast and brightness? I used Kris D's settings, and Ralph P and David V suggested on raising these settings..,it makes a huge improvements and now we see some of the benefits of hdr.

Ralph P suggested using an scene from Hitman to set contrast. Iot similar values than Ralph, brightness at 15 and contrast at 30.

There are still some issues that need to be tweak.

Chris. My DVD UHD Blu Ray and Blu Ray collection
JVC DLA-X750R (calibrated with calman 5 and c6 hdr meter), ST 100 (100") screen, B&W 803D2s mains, B&W HTM2D2 center channel, B&W 805D2 surrounds, B&W CCMM682s in-ceiling speakers (4), B&W DB1 subwoofer, Marantz AV8802A preamp, Parasound Halo A51+(2xA21)+(2xA23) amps, Oppo BDP 103D player, Panasonic DMP-UB900 player, Roku Ultra and Harmony Elite remote.
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Old 02-15-2016, 09:50 PM
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My degree was in computer science and laser engineering. I graduated in '83 and worked in the field of cutting lasers for a little while and then for the government until the Graham-Rudman budget act and the deficit control act killed our program. I did change careers but I know a little bit about lasers. Their are many parts in any projector or electronics that can fail, power supplies are the most common failures in consumer electronics. You can make power supplies last a long time but it costs more. Some lasers can be sensitive to voltage fluctuations so I hope Epson put a decent power supply in this unit Any moving part is also likely to not last as long as a solid state device like a laser or LED. Why don't we discuss how long before we expect a fan failure, iris or motorized lens failure?

Maybe they didn't make it replaceable because they predict few problems and their won't be many sales of laser/phosphor wheels in 6-10 years (8 hours a day depending on mode) when their brightness starts decreasing. How many of their customers will be willing to pay for a replacement part or will they just upgrade to the latest and greatest at that time. There is a good chance that a less expensive model that out performs it would cost less than the repair. For instance how many would spend over $2k to get a new lamp on their Sony Qualia004 when a Sony 40 projector would out perform it. Now maybe if you spend $50k on a projector you expect to keep it longer, IDK. A company has to expect a certain amount of sales from consumables to make it worthwhile, I wonder how much Epson makes off ink for their printers? Companies in general love to sell consumables when possible.


If you think Epson should offer a longer standard warranty that is fine. Other manufacturers that offer longer warranties is one of their advantages and ones that offer shorter ones a disadvantage. Everyone buying a projector needs to determine which features and attributes will work best for their situation. IMHO, a solid state, long lasting, consistent light source like laser or LED is an advantage for projectors that use them.
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Old 02-16-2016, 05:34 AM
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So, anyone compared RS400 vs RS500 (P3 filter) on UHD Blu-ray? Any comments on how much difference the filter makes?
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Old 02-16-2016, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
I mentioned several times in my posts found in this thread that my RS400 was brighter than the RS500, contrary to the published specs -- and that's just eyeing it. I guess my eyes still work -- though I suspect a number of people here think at best I'm legally blind.


As far as the Epson is concerned the fact that people saw it demoed at CES and didn't particularly like it should be taken with a grain of salt. Demos are largely dependent upon those who set them up and as people mentioned here the person responsible for the Epson demo didn't particularly seem to know his stuff.


I've actually set this projector up in my own HT along with the JVCs so I could determine for myself how each fared rather than depending on others' observations. Granted I use a screen that most don't and that certainly has a bearing on what I'm seeing.


I'm keeping all three -- that's how good I think they are and I will say the Epson is not embarrassed by the JVCs in any way from what I'm seeing -- though the JVCs definitely have an edge for 3D.





And I think, if you messure the light output ( and calibration , and gamma and ... ) after about 1500 hours, the result will look very different


( hint: the LS will output about the same ( and still be calibreted and gamma unchanged ) and the JVC will output at lot less and probely the calibration and gamma will be wrong on them to ) - time to get the RS´s calibreted agin and use the first 300 dollar or so, to change the first number of lamps, in order to keep them up to the level ).


dj
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Old 02-16-2016, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Ellebob View Post
Maybe they didn't make it replaceable because they predict few problems and their won't be many sales of laser/phosphor wheels in 6-10 years (8 hours a day depending on mode) when their brightness starts decreasing.
To be fair the light loss is linear over the course of time. Epson has rated it's half life of lumen output at 17000 hours (or whatever they've changed it to again). So light loss does not occur at "6-10" years down the road, but linearly over the time you use it. And that number will obviously vary depending on how fast you put the hours on this unit over the years.
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Old 02-16-2016, 12:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Zombie,

Have you try cranking up the contrast and brightness? I used Kris D's settings, and Ralph P and David V suggested on raising these settings..,it makes a huge improvements and now we see some of the benefits of hdr.

Ralph P suggested using an scene from Hitman to set contrast. Iot similar values than Ralph, brightness at 15 and contrast at 30.

There are still some issues that need to be tweak.
I tried both settings separately but not together. With just the HDR settings cranked, there is too much missing in the mid-range of the gamma curve.

hopefully JVC will be working with the Samsung players now that they are released and provide a firmware update with a better baseline. In the meantime, I purchased the HDFury to strip out the HDR as I'd like to compare the UHD encoding vs. BD.
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Old 02-16-2016, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
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Zombie,

Have you try cranking up the contrast and brightness? I used Kris D's settings, and Ralph P and David V suggested on raising these settings..,it makes a huge improvements and now we see some of the benefits of hdr.

Ralph P suggested using an scene from Hitman to set contrast. Iot similar values than Ralph, brightness at 15 and contrast at 30.

There are still some issues that need to be tweak.
I tried both settings separately but not together. With just the HDR settings cranked, there is too much missing in the mid-range of the gamma curve.

hopefully JVC will be working with the Samsung players now that they are released and provide a firmware update with a better baseline. In the meantime, I purchased the HDFury to strip out the HDR as I'd like to compare the UHD encoding vs. BD.
Give it a shot and you will be surprised!
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Old 02-16-2016, 01:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok thanks I'll take a look at it tonight. I don't like though that it disables the Auto Iris in HDR mode.

What movies have you tested so far? I have the following titles below and haven't had a chance to look at them all.

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Old 02-16-2016, 02:48 PM
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My degree was in computer science and laser engineering. I graduated in '83 and worked in the field of cutting lasers for a little while and then for the government until the Graham-Rudman budget act and the deficit control act killed our program. I did change careers but I know a little bit about lasers. Their are many parts in any projector or electronics that can fail, power supplies are the most common failures in consumer electronics. You can make power supplies last a long time but it costs more. Some lasers can be sensitive to voltage fluctuations so I hope Epson put a decent power supply in this unit Any moving part is also likely to not last as long as a solid state device like a laser or LED. Why don't we discuss how long before we expect a fan failure, iris or motorized lens failure?

Maybe they didn't make it replaceable because they predict few problems and their won't be many sales of laser/phosphor wheels in 6-10 years (8 hours a day depending on mode) when their brightness starts decreasing. How many of their customers will be willing to pay for a replacement part or will they just upgrade to the latest and greatest at that time. There is a good chance that a less expensive model that out performs it would cost less than the repair. For instance how many would spend over $2k to get a new lamp on their Sony Qualia004 when a Sony 40 projector would out perform it. Now maybe if you spend $50k on a projector you expect to keep it longer, IDK. A company has to expect a certain amount of sales from consumables to make it worthwhile, I wonder how much Epson makes off ink for their printers? Companies in general love to sell consumables when possible.


If you think Epson should offer a longer standard warranty that is fine. Other manufacturers that offer longer warranties is one of their advantages and ones that offer shorter ones a disadvantage. Everyone buying a projector needs to determine which features and attributes will work best for their situation. IMHO, a solid state, long lasting, consistent light source like laser or LED is an advantage for projectors that use them.
That's funny you mention other potential faulty parts. I'm not excited about the motorized lens, for the very reason you mentioned. What if the PJ works great, but the lens cap won't open? I've wondered whether that part is even necessary, or just kind of cool. I also wonder if there's a way within settings to turn the automatic motor off, and be able to open & close manually. That would be nice!

You make other good points as well. My last projector died as a result of a power supply failure. It costs $850 or more to fix. The PJ is 10 years old, and not worth it to repair.

To protect a PJ's power supply from dirty voltage, power spikes, etc., can anyone recommend a power filter, preferably with circuit protection. I know in the audio world, dirty power can reduce the benefits of a good audio system, especially if the equipment doesn't have a really good power supply. It has been suggested to place a power filter in line to send clean power to the equipment. I would suppose that would make sense for Video equipment as well. If anyone can recommend a good power filter (regulator), with circuit protection would be even better, please let me know. Thanks!
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Old 02-16-2016, 02:58 PM
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... I have the following titles below and haven't had a chance to look at them all.
Are there no SDR releases of feature films on UHD Blu-ray?
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Old 02-16-2016, 02:59 PM
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Old 02-16-2016, 09:22 PM
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Not sure what to tell ya, we spent about an hour going back and forth measuring each unit multiple times...
Is there any chance that the projectors were located at different locations when tested? and/or were you using an angular reflective gain screen during the tests? It just didn't make sense to me why the higher lumen rated RS500 was not as bright as the RS400.

Here's a quote from Don Stewart from the Stewart thread. It resonated with me, and was just curious if this may have skewed the fL readings:
....quite common because of a testing error many make when measuring angular reflective gain screens. When measuring screen brightness, most technicians position the light meter on both the horizontal and vertical screen centerlines. In most real life room scenarios, the projector lens is offset from the vertical screen centerline with a ceiling mount or table top mount. Therefore, the incident light ray is not striking the vertical screen centerline perpendicular to the screen surface and will give one a lower FL reading. In the case of a ceiling mount light source, the light meters needs to be slowly lowered, utilizing a seek and search test protocol, until highest screen output reading is witnessed.

If this isn't the case, then as you said, I don't know what else to say.
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Old 02-16-2016, 09:43 PM
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That's funny you mention other potential faulty parts. I'm not excited about the motorized lens, for the very reason you mentioned. What if the PJ works great, but the lens cap won't open? I've wondered whether that part is even necessary, or just kind of cool. I also wonder if there's a way within settings to turn the automatic motor off, and be able to open & close manually. That would be nice!



You make other good points as well. My last projector died as a result of a power supply failure. It costs $850 or more to fix. The PJ is 10 years old, and not worth it to repair.



To protect a PJ's power supply from dirty voltage, power spikes, etc., can anyone recommend a power filter, preferably with circuit protection. I know in the audio world, dirty power can reduce the benefits of a good audio system, especially if the equipment doesn't have a really good power supply. It has been suggested to place a power filter in line to send clean power to the equipment. I would suppose that would make sense for Video equipment as well. If anyone can recommend a good power filter (regulator), with circuit protection would be even better, please let me know. Thanks!

You can turn the lens shutter to off in the settings.
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Old 02-17-2016, 12:10 AM
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Zombie, waiting for your impressions on the PQ vs. the best BD transfers available (Oblivion, Pacific Rim etc.).

Is it not possible to playback these on HTPC using madVR yet? The latest downscaler implemented by Madshi - SSIM - does wonders on UHD material and I assume will fare better than Samsung UHD player when played back on FullHD displays.

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Old 02-17-2016, 04:29 AM
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My degree was in computer science and laser engineering. I graduated in '83 and worked in the field of cutting lasers for a little while and then for the government until the Graham-Rudman budget act and the deficit control act killed our program. I did change careers but I know a little bit about lasers. Their are many parts in any projector or electronics that can fail, power supplies are the most common failures in consumer electronics. You can make power supplies last a long time but it costs more. Some lasers can be sensitive to voltage fluctuations so I hope Epson put a decent power supply in this unit Any moving part is also likely to not last as long as a solid state device like a laser or LED. Why don't we discuss how long before we expect a fan failure, iris or motorized lens failure?

Maybe they didn't make it replaceable because they predict few problems and their won't be many sales of laser/phosphor wheels in 6-10 years (8 hours a day depending on mode) when their brightness starts decreasing. How many of their customers will be willing to pay for a replacement part or will they just upgrade to the latest and greatest at that time. There is a good chance that a less expensive model that out performs it would cost less than the repair. For instance how many would spend over $2k to get a new lamp on their Sony Qualia004 when a Sony 40 projector would out perform it. Now maybe if you spend $50k on a projector you expect to keep it longer, IDK. A company has to expect a certain amount of sales from consumables to make it worthwhile, I wonder how much Epson makes off ink for their printers? Companies in general love to sell consumables when possible.


If you think Epson should offer a longer standard warranty that is fine. Other manufacturers that offer longer warranties is one of their advantages and ones that offer shorter ones a disadvantage. Everyone buying a projector needs to determine which features and attributes will work best for their situation. IMHO, a solid state, long lasting, consistent light source like laser or LED is an advantage for projectors that use them.
Power supply failures but also bad design practices.


I got an X30/RS45 for free from a relative recently. He gave it to me because he was fed up with it. It started to hang very frequently up to a point that he was not able to finish a movie.
I observed the behavior for a while and there was a strong correlation between an hdmi glitch during a movie or a handshake that caused the hang. Only pulling the power cable could resolve this.
Since the failure happens gradually over time I suspected that some capacitors went bad over time.
Turned out that one or more local power supply regulation circuits, each chip on the scaler board had its own local regulator, was the cause.
After bodging some caps across the output capacitors of the local supply circuits the problem went away completely.
I suspect that these capacitors went bad over time and/or had too low values for the application.
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Old 02-17-2016, 05:17 AM
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Is there any chance that the projectors were located at different locations when tested? and/or were you using an angular reflective gain screen during the tests? It just didn't make sense to me why the higher lumen rated RS500 was not as bright as the RS400.

Here's a quote from Don Stewart from the Stewart thread. It resonated with me, and was just curious if this may have skewed the fL readings:
....quite common because of a testing error many make when measuring angular reflective gain screens. When measuring screen brightness, most technicians position the light meter on both the horizontal and vertical screen centerlines. In most real life room scenarios, the projector lens is offset from the vertical screen centerline with a ceiling mount or table top mount. Therefore, the incident light ray is not striking the vertical screen centerline perpendicular to the screen surface and will give one a lower FL reading. In the case of a ceiling mount light source, the light meters needs to be slowly lowered, utilizing a seek and search test protocol, until highest screen output reading is witnessed.

If this isn't the case, then as you said, I don't know what else to say.

The 2 jvc pjs were stacked on top of each other directly under the epson, approximately 14' from the screen, the screen is a non high power, zero gain screen.

Seegs has this rs 400 for sale, someone should grab this light canon while it last
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