Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 475 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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Old 04-15-2016, 03:51 PM
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Sorry Dave, I get a ton of pms and it's very difficult to keep up. If you still need info I'll go back and find the message.
Thanks so much!! The link in your signature line is a big help. I really appreciate all of the info you provide here.

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Old 04-15-2016, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post
This guy measure 19164.4 : 1 http://performances-home-cinema.fr/2...resultats-hdr/

I just redid my measurement to be sure and I get 17312:1 (iris fully open)

21345:1 (Iris open at 80%)
Just to complete those numbers, what do you get with iris fully closed? You could also reduce zoom to smallest image size (longest throw) to get maximum possible contrast.

So is the VW665 immune from the SXRD contrast degradation discussed in the other thread?
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Old 04-16-2016, 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Andreas posted his VW520 measurements in the 665 thread, thank you.

This number seem a little hig when comparing to other peoples measurements, I measured the 520 I had in for a test to 14641:1 with the iris wide open and 19808:1 with the iris fully closed and 226401:1 with the iris sat to Auto Full. This is about the same as other peoples measurements and was measured with a Klein K10A facing the lens with the diffusor on.

so matching or exceeding the flagship model's contrast, what did they change for the increase? The VW600 was ~8000K:1 and we could easily see the difference between it and last year's JVC's in low APL scenes with a split source.

One of the things Sony has done to "fix" the degradation is to increase the on/off contrast and some gamma tweaks on the VW520, I think they have done the same with the VW5000ES. What they have done to achieve this I am not sure of.

It was very easy to see the difference between the VW520 and RS600 in low APL scenes this year also. The difference was very big, the RS600 also looked sharper than the VW520 with 1080p material. The RS600 also looked more convincing in mixed material with dark parts with much detail, where the VW520 just looked blurry and like gray mush the RS600 revealed details and actually looked so much better than the Sony I was very surprised. The Sony VW520 is a very good projector and by it self it is fantastic, but when you test it side by side with the RS600 it gets quite a beating in total picture quality.

The only thing the VW520 is better than the RS600 in my eyes is with gaming because of the much better input lag. This is the only reason I hold on to my HW55 in my living room as I also play games in there, if JVC had input lag on par with the Sony I would have a RS400 in my living room.
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Last edited by Andreas21; 04-16-2016 at 02:50 AM.
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Old 04-16-2016, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
It was very easy to see the difference between the VW520 and RS600 in low APL scenes this year also. The difference was very big, the RS600 also looked sharper than the VW520 with 1080p material. The RS600 also looked more convincing in mixed material with dark parts with much detail, where the VW520 just looked blurry and like gray mush the RS600 revealed details and actually looked so much better than the Sony I was very surprised. The Sony VW520 is a very good projector and by it self it is fantastic, but when you test it side by side with the RS600 it gets quite a beating in total picture quality.

The only thing the VW520 is better than the RS600 in my eyes is with gaming because of the much better input lag. This is the only reason I hold on to my HW55 in my living room as I also play games in there, if JVC had input lag on par with the Sony I would have a RS400 in my living room.
I also have test the Sony 520 vs the JVC x7000 in my room. Before the Sony 520 calibration and tweeking. The black level difference was big but after calibration, tweeking and dynamic iris activated on "limited" (after last firmware upgrade) on the Sony 520, the difference in black level was not that big. Better on the JVC of course but no night and day. I get a native 21000:1 on the Sony + the dynamic iris it give me a "perceived" contrast closer to a subjective 35000:1 - 40000:1. I measure my JVC contrast close to 69000:1 so ultimately the black is better on the JVC but the black do not look gray on the Sony in my room with the settings I mention.

I agree with you some 1080p material look better on the JVC. Prestine transfer like Oblivion, Star Wars, ect. But on many less than perfect blu ray transfers the image is cleaner and more natural on the Sony. Also, TV Shows and sports do look better on the Sony. Motion have made great progress on the JVC but still better on the Sony.

As for 4k, for my part it look better on the Sony. More natural and a bit more detail overall (no still picture but movie in motion). The JVC eshift look ok but it's not quite there.

At the end of the day I have to choose a projector to keep and I decide to keep the Sony because of my watching habit. I watch a lot of sports, tv show and older movies. Of course once or two per week I watch a new release that will look better on the JVC and for that I would have like to keep both, but my budget (aka wife) tell me to choose one so I keep the Sony because for me 9 viewing on 10 look better on that projector.
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Old 04-16-2016, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post
I also have test the Sony 520 vs the JVC x7000 in my room. Before the Sony 520 calibration and tweeking. The black level difference was big but after calibration, tweeking and dynamic iris activated on "limited" (after last firmware upgrade) on the Sony 520, the difference in black level was not that big. Better on the JVC of course but no night and day. I get a native 21000:1 on the Sony + the dynamic iris it give me a "perceived" contrast closer to a subjective 35000:1 - 40000:1. I measure my JVC contrast close to 69000:1 so ultimately the black is better on the JVC but the black do not look gray on the Sony in my room with the settings I mention.

I agree with you some 1080p material look better on the JVC. Prestine transfer like Oblivion, Star Wars, ect. But on many less than perfect blu ray transfers the image is cleaner and more natural on the Sony. Also, TV Shows and sports do look better on the Sony. Motion have made great progress on the JVC but still better on the Sony.

As for 4k, for my part it look better on the Sony. More natural and a bit more detail overall (no still picture but movie in motion). The JVC eshift look ok but it's not quite there.

At the end of the day I have to choose a projector to keep and I decide to keep the Sony because of my watching habit. I watch a lot of sports, tv show and older movies. Of course once or two per week I watch a new release that will look better on the JVC and for that I would have like to keep both, but my budget (aka wife) tell me to choose one so I keep the Sony because for me 9 viewing on 10 look better on that projector.
So you don´t use the iris on the X7000?

I calibrated the VW520 to reference level (all Delta E average under 1) and measured the dynamic contrast on the Sony to 226401:1 and native to around 17000:1 when the VW520 and RS600 was brightness matched, my RS600 then has around 100000:1 on/off and over 500000:1 dynamic contrast. So in my HT the difference in low APL scenes was quite big and in some scenes just silly big. The new firmware fixes the iris pumping, but it does not give the projector better black level.

I never tested anything else than BD movies as this is what I use my projector in my HT for, If I wanted a projector for watching TV, gaming, sports+++ I would buy a Sony 4K if it was not for the severe panel degradation of these projectors. I actually have a Sony HW55 in my living room and I use it as an allround projector for all sorts of material and it works ok, but it has panel degradation to some level. But as it is used quite heavy it is not as severe as my VW1100 was.

Regards
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Old 04-16-2016, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Thanks for the additional info Rick. I wonder where the variances are between Cine4home's original info and your recent measurements + this info.




This seems like a bit of an odd year for Sony. HW65 is basically the same as a the HW55. The VW1100 is still for sale as a current product but expect that will change at the end of the year. The 665 didn't get the full HDMI chipset. No Sony UHD player as they focus on new streaming services, seemingly abandoning development on the UHD media player that was pushed with their 4K projectors.
It sound like the new ps4.5 coming out later this year may be a uhd bluray player
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Old 04-16-2016, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post
I also have test the Sony 520 vs the JVC x7000 in my room. Before the Sony 520 calibration and tweeking. The black level difference was big but after calibration, tweeking and dynamic iris activated on "limited" (after last firmware upgrade) on the Sony 520, the difference in black level was not that big. Better on the JVC of course but no night and day. I get a native 21000:1 on the Sony + the dynamic iris it give me a "perceived" contrast closer to a subjective 35000:1 - 40000:1. I measure my JVC contrast close to 69000:1 so ultimately the black is better on the JVC but the black do not look gray on the Sony in my room with the settings I mention.

I agree with you some 1080p material look better on the JVC. Prestine transfer like Oblivion, Star Wars, ect. But on many less than perfect blu ray transfers the image is cleaner and more natural on the Sony. Also, TV Shows and sports do look better on the Sony. Motion have made great progress on the JVC but still better on the Sony.

As for 4k, for my part it look better on the Sony. More natural and a bit more detail overall (no still picture but movie in motion). The JVC eshift look ok but it's not quite there.

At the end of the day I have to choose a projector to keep and I decide to keep the Sony because of my watching habit. I watch a lot of sports, tv show and older movies. Of course once or two per week I watch a new release that will look better on the JVC and for that I would have like to keep both, but my budget (aka wife) tell me to choose one so I keep the Sony because for me 9 viewing on 10 look better on that projector.
Why would you compare dynamic of the Sony to native contrast of the JVC and then say there is not that much difference in your room, even though the JVC still almost had double the contrast with this handicap. I would think that you would compared native to native and dynamic to dynamic.
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Old 04-17-2016, 01:35 AM
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Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post
I also have test the Sony 520 vs the JVC x7000 in my room. Before the Sony 520 calibration and tweeking. The black level difference was big but after calibration, tweeking and dynamic iris activated on "limited" (after last firmware upgrade) on the Sony 520, the difference in black level was not that big. Better on the JVC of course but no night and day. I get a native 21000:1 on the Sony + the dynamic iris it give me a "perceived" contrast closer to a subjective 35000:1 - 40000:1. I measure my JVC contrast close to 69000:1 so ultimately the black is better on the JVC but the black do not look gray on the Sony in my room with the settings I mention.

Hi RickAVManiac When you say that your contrast number was much better after calibration, did you do only brightness and RGB white balance calibration, or did you use Sony's Calibration Pro software were you can tweak the Gamma curve on RGB level?
Was it in the low IRE end you could improve, lower black level?
On mine I get about 14.000:1, Iris Off 100%, lamp low, mid trow. I have only adjusted brightness so far.
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Old 04-17-2016, 02:59 AM
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Hi RickAVManiac When you say that your contrast number was much better after calibration, did you do only brightness and RGB white balance calibration, or did you use Sony's Calibration Pro software were you can tweak the Gamma curve on RGB level?
Was it in the low IRE end you could improve, lower black level?
On mine I get about 14.000:1, Iris Off 100%, lamp low, mid trow. I have only adjusted brightness so far.
If you set your black level correct before calibration you almost all of the time get a little lower contrast as correcting the grayscale almost always take away some light, but a good calibration will almost always look more dynamic.

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Old 04-17-2016, 04:29 AM
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If you set your black level correct before calibration you almost all of the time get a little lower contrast as correcting the grayscale almost always take away some light, but a good calibration will almost always look more dynamic.

Hi Andreas21, I think that Rick got almost 4000:1 more after calibration, from 17 to 21000:1, I think it sounds like a lot.
Just as this guy http://performances-home-cinema.fr/2...resultats-hdr/ went from 9700:1 to almost 19000:1
Brightness level at 50, factory default, is correct in this position.
So I can not really see that one can get this increase here.
I think that it must be in the Gamma correction software it is achieved.
What do you think?
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Old 04-17-2016, 06:06 AM
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Why would you compare dynamic of the Sony to native contrast of the JVC and then say there is not that much difference in your room, even though the JVC still almost had double the contrast with this handicap. I would think that you would compared native to native and dynamic to dynamic.

Your right about that one. Not a fair comparasion.

Anyway, the result is well know, JVC black is just the best, the Sony cannot replicate that. End of story. Dont want to confuse anybody on this one.

Before the JVC RS500 I was using a VW1100 with a measure contrast of 6700:1. The dynamic iris was left OFF because it was a bit too much distracting. Compare the VW1100 to the JVC RS500 the black of the VW1100 look gray. Same as my old projector before that the Sony VW500 measure below 9000:1 with a distracting crazy dynamic iris, the black was gray compare to the JVC.

But with the Sony VW665, the big step in native contrast combine with the "not perfect" but now usable dynamic iris, the black do not look gray like my VW1100 was. So not in the same league as the JVC RS500 but a big step in the right direction for Sony.

Last edited by RickAVManiac; 04-17-2016 at 06:11 AM.
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Old 04-17-2016, 06:32 AM
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Hi RickAVManiac When you say that your contrast number was much better after calibration, did you do only brightness and RGB white balance calibration, or did you use Sony's Calibration Pro software were you can tweak the Gamma curve on RGB level?
Was it in the low IRE end you could improve, lower black level?
On mine I get about 14.000:1, Iris Off 100%, lamp low, mid trow. I have only adjusted brightness so far.
Yes I use the Sony Calibration Pro software to tweak the gamma curve. The software is very easy to use. It can connect to the projector in many way (USB, Ethernet or Serial) , I choose to use ethernet cable and everything work just fine.
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Old 04-17-2016, 08:31 AM
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Yes I use the Sony Calibration Pro software to tweak the gamma curve. The software is very easy to use. It can connect to the projector in many way (USB, Ethernet or Serial) , I choose to use ethernet cable and everything work just fine.
Thanks, which version are you using, the one I have, 1.001 have only VW500 in the selection menu?
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Old 04-17-2016, 05:48 PM
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I know a few people here use the Minolta T10 for measuring contrast. Any special tricks for using this lux meter? I see there is a fast/slow switch. Custom integration time, etc.

The specs indicate: "Linearity: +-2% +-1 digit of value displayed". Does that mean when measuring 0.02 lux, the true reading could in the range of (0.02 - 0.01 - 0.0002) and (0.02 + 0.01 + 0.0006)? Or do you subtract/add 2% first before subtracting/adding the final 0.01 digit? I know at these small values it doesn't much matter but the order could make a bigger difference when measuring brightness.

Thanks.
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Old 04-17-2016, 08:41 PM
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While I can barely understand what language you guys are talking in with projector settings and means of measurements can you provide a link or reference to read how to determine a good projector for a 135-140" horizontal 2.4 AT screen that will provide a great picture? I'm new to the home theater scene (at this level) and building a theater but struggling with projector central calculator. I can't get above 10-12 fL with a screen size in the 135-140" range with any projector even mounting it as close as the calculator allows. I get 15-19fL with smaller screens on most projectors. Unless fL isn't an important value but to a newbie it sounds like a reasonable measurement to determine a good projector.


Reading through your chats it appears the JVC RS400, 500 and Sony HW65ES are the projectors in my range. Will these projectors display a worse picture on a 140" screen than a Sony HW40 on a 110" screen? If anyone has advice or links to read up on this I'd appreciate it.
Also, I'm limited how far back to mount the projector as room is only 20'-4" deep, 14' wide, 9' height and I game a lot so lower lag better. Thank you for any tips or excruciating long reading links as I'm already several hundred hours into reading on this theater and all I have right now is a 2x4 framed up room with a baffle wall nearly done (took two tries!).

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Old 04-17-2016, 11:57 PM
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Hi Andreas21, I think that Rick got almost 4000:1 more after calibration, from 17 to 21000:1, I think it sounds like a lot.
Just as this guy http://performances-home-cinema.fr/2...resultats-hdr/ went from 9700:1 to almost 19000:1
Brightness level at 50, factory default, is correct in this position.
So I can not really see that one can get this increase here.
I think that it must be in the Gamma correction software it is achieved.
What do you think?
To get this the projector has to be very poorly pre calibrated from the factory, what causes this I am not sure. To get a 25% raise in contrast after calibration something has to be wrong with the starting point.

The french guy must have done something wrong to get this kind of result.

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Old 04-18-2016, 12:16 AM
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To get this the projector has to be very poorly pre calibrated from the factory, what causes this I am not sure. To get a 25% raise in contrast after calibration something has to be wrong with the starting point.

The french guy must have done something wrong to get this kind of result.
I believe that what alex_t calls calibration includes getting 14fL (48cd/m2) for the white peak which means closing the iris.

All the on-off values here provided strongly depends on the degree of Closure of the iris AND the use of mininimum or maximal zoom.

When not using the same setup of iris and zoom, you compare apples and oranges.
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Old 04-18-2016, 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post
Your right about that one. Not a fair comparasion.

Anyway, the result is well know, JVC black is just the best, the Sony cannot replicate that. End of story. Dont want to confuse anybody on this one.

Before the JVC RS500 I was using a VW1100 with a measure contrast of 6700:1. The dynamic iris was left OFF because it was a bit too much distracting. Compare the VW1100 to the JVC RS500 the black of the VW1100 look gray. Same as my old projector before that the Sony VW500 measure below 9000:1 with a distracting crazy dynamic iris, the black was gray compare to the JVC.

But with the Sony VW665, the big step in native contrast combine with the "not perfect" but now usable dynamic iris, the black do not look gray like my VW1100 was. So not in the same league as the JVC RS500 but a big step in the right direction for Sony.
If you compare them both with the iris off or both with the iris on you will get the same results as I did. I also compared like you did with the iris off on the JVC and on on the Sony and then the results was much like yours, not a big advantage to the JVC when it came to blacklevel. But even then the JVC had a deeper blacklevel and looked more dynamic and had more depth in the low APL scenes.

To make a fair comparison between two projectors with DI´s you need to compare them on equal terms, and they need to be tested both with the iris off or on to get fair results.

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Old 04-18-2016, 01:32 AM
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I believe that what alex_t calls calibration includes getting 14fL (48cd/m2) for the white peak which means closing the iris.

All the on-off values here provided strongly depends on the degree of Closure of the iris AND the use of mininimum or maximal zoom.

When not using the same setup of iris and zoom, you compare apples and oranges.
Yes, but even if closing the iris all the way down you don´t get that kind increase with the VW520, the one I measured was 14643:1 with the iris open and 19808:1 with it fully closed. So to get this kind of on/off increase he must have done something wrong when measuring uncalibrated I think.
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Old 04-19-2016, 05:16 PM
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I just got my 400 today. For 1080p bluray should I put eshift to off?
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Old 04-19-2016, 07:03 PM
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I prefer it off but lots of different opinions.
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Old 04-19-2016, 07:57 PM
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I just got my 400 today. For 1080p bluray should I put eshift to off?
That's what I would recommend. The only reason I'd use it would be if my seating location was close enough to make out the pixel grid.
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Old 04-22-2016, 08:50 PM - Thread Starter
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interesting info on the updated PS4 - Sony doesn't seem to be in a rush to have the PS4 as a front runner for UHD BD like they did with the PS3 for BD.


http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/di...k-neo-revealed

What isn't in PlayStation 4K/Neo

In our original piece on PS4K, we suggested that Sony may be looking to add support for higher colour gamuts and high-dynamic range - part and parcel of the new UHD 4K spec and definitely supported in upcoming Radeon hardware from AMD. It is not mentioned at all in Sony's documentation, though the support should be there as the platform holder will be using AMD's display blocks. The omission says to us that it's simply not a priority at this time.
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Old 04-23-2016, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
interesting info on the updated PS4 - Sony doesn't seem to be in a rush to have the PS4 as a front runner for UHD BD like they did with the PS3 for BD.


http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/di...k-neo-revealed

What isn't in PlayStation 4K/Neo

In our original piece on PS4K, we suggested that Sony may be looking to add support for higher colour gamuts and high-dynamic range - part and parcel of the new UHD 4K spec and definitely supported in upcoming Radeon hardware from AMD. It is not mentioned at all in Sony's documentation, though the support should be there as the platform holder will be using AMD's display blocks. The omission says to us that it's simply not a priority at this time.
From articles I have read, Sony is more bullish on streaming.
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Old 04-23-2016, 07:37 PM - Thread Starter
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From articles I have read, Sony is more bullish on streaming.
that may have been an OK path if they put some effort into it. The 4K media devices for the 4K projectors were an unfortunate failure, both of them. no HD sound and no further development on the platform. They recently announced a new UHD streaming service, but that's for the TV's only.

They could have been too far ahead of the time being first to the HT with the 4K units. The VW1100's aren't going to be able to take full advantage of the UHD BD format and there's a number of issues with the current players + the VW665. My guess in the fall would be the elimination or replacement of the VW1200. if it stays, full 18GB HDMI, HDR support and also a more efficient P3 filter.

folks were pressing JVC hard to release a native UHD projector but I think they did the right thing this year. Refine the existing series with a substantial increase in light output, 18GB HDMI support and also provides controls + color profiles for HDR to at least give some fighting chance of getting a decent HDR image from the new format. Since release, this is more than Sony has done to help the folks with HDR support on the VW665.
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Old 04-26-2016, 09:59 PM - Thread Starter
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so today was 'National Alien Day' (4/26 -> LV426, get it? )

http://io9.gizmodo.com/theres-a-bunc...for-1772988663

tonight I gathered my various copies over the years including the LaserDisc, BD release and there is a DVHS copy around here somewhere. The DVHS release was an amazing transfer for it's time. The LaserDisc image doesn't hold up well on the 142" but the full color fold outs are great to have. Behind the scenes info on the movie, a word from the director, Set design, etc.







This is the movie that is made for the JVC's and a blacked out room.
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Old 04-27-2016, 07:12 AM - Thread Starter
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This is interesting, Sony is releasing a firmware update to add HDR to the VW320.

http://altadefinicionhd.com/inicio/i...or-vpl-vw320es

this means it must have been crippled intentionally to separate the value features from the 520/665. Any chance of a firmware update for the missing DI?

my guess is they felt compelled to add the feature due to market pressure (much lower cost competition base model JVC RS400 has HDR capability)

I'm curious in this firmware update if they will allow controls to tune the HDR image. Right now it seems on / off, at least the JVC's have several controls to tune the image.


I'll also take the announcement as a subliminal message that a VW1100 update is not in their agenda but I think we knew that for a while.
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Old 04-27-2016, 01:03 PM
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so today was 'National Alien Day' (4/26 -> LV426, get it? )

http://io9.gizmodo.com/theres-a-bunc...for-1772988663

tonight I gathered my various copies over the years including the LaserDisc, BD release and there is a DVHS copy around here somewhere. The DVHS release was an amazing transfer for it's time. The LaserDisc image doesn't hold up well on the 142" but the full color fold outs are great to have. Behind the scenes info on the movie, a word from the director, Set design, etc.







This is the movie that is made for the JVC's and a blacked out room.
Nice ! That reminds me that I want to watch Prometheus on the JVC ( haven't actually watched it on the RS600 yet ) !
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Old 04-28-2016, 08:20 AM
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This is the movie that is made for the JVC's and a blacked out room.
That's for sure. It's one of my favorite films. I've lost count how many times I've watched it, or various scenes, on my
JVC projectors. I can throw it on any time and get pulled right in.
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Old 05-01-2016, 10:22 AM
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Hello i have a strange problem with my JVC rs400.


I looks the same as ghosting in 3d but it happens in 2d
When there is a people face or a black sword or something with a white background you see a silhouette round the people face or sword when the camera pans.


It has the same look as ghosting in 3d..


I dont know what is is.i cant find a solution
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