Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 481 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 05-19-2016, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ximori View Post
Not sure if you ever read this link:
Just received and mounted my new DNP Supernova BLADE 08-85 Screen. Pics and impressions inside.

I almost bought one but glad I was able to view it first on numerous occasions, including a visit at their nearby facility. It really looked very good when matched with very bright projectors but the low gain won't help my situation especially if I plan to use the screen with current ultra blu ray material and hdr.
You should request for a sample and see how it works compared to a white material at night.
I'm not sure if he still has this screen but a member Andreas21 used it with his Sony 1000/1100es and now he has the RS600.
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Old 05-19-2016, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post
I'm not sure if he still has this screen but a member Andreas21 used it with his Sony 1000/1100es and now he has the RS600.
I've seen a portable one as well, like the one below on the right.
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Old 05-19-2016, 11:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ximori View Post
Not sure if you ever read this link:
Just received and mounted my new DNP Supernova BLADE 08-85 Screen. Pics and impressions inside.

I almost bought one but glad I was able to view it first on numerous occasions, including a visit at their nearby facility. It really looked very good when matched with very bright projectors but the low gain won't help my situation especially if I plan to use the screen with current ultra blu ray material and hdr.
You should request for a sample and see how it works compared to a white material at night.

Thanks! Yes, I've seen that thread. I will also be looking at a 100" size - except, I'm looking at a motorized screen, so that I can watch a TV in daytime and the screen/projector at night. I'm sure white material has more punch to it, but I'm guessing it won't work so well at night in a non-optimized room, with a white ceiling and tan walls. I'm not looking to do 3D, so I don't need the extra brightness for that.


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FOR SALE: JVC RS500 - mint condition - send me a PM, if interested
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Old 05-19-2016, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post
I'm not sure if he still has this screen but a member Andreas21 used it with his Sony 1000/1100es and now he has the RS600.

That would be great if Andreas21 chimes in. I think he even had an X500 before the RS600, and that might have been with the DNP.


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FOR SALE: JVC RS500 - mint condition - send me a PM, if interested
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Old 05-20-2016, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by john2910 View Post
Hello there,


I think i am gonne setup a second projector for gaming.
I have now a JVC rs400 for movie watching.


Would be a MITSUBISHI HC9000D good for gaming?


Best regards
Somebody some tips?
Best regards.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk
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Old 05-20-2016, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by john2910 View Post
Somebody some tips?
Best regards.

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Should be pretty decent for gaming and easy to set up since it has horizontal and vertical lens shift. What do you need to know?

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Old 05-20-2016, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Should be pretty decent for gaming and easy to set up since it has horizontal and vertical lens shift. What do you need to know?

Hello there,


will it will be much better for gaming than the JVC rs400?


Or are there even better options?


Best regards
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Old 05-20-2016, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john2910 View Post
Hello there,


will it will be much better for gaming than the JVC rs400?
Try the JVC and see. Lag is kind of like RBE or motion handling, some people it really bugs, some people don't even notice. If you fall into the camp that it doesn't bother, just enjoy gaming on your JVC, it throws a beautiful picture.

Quote:
Or are there even better options?
For gaming? You can get a DLP quite a bit cheaper, something like the BenQ W1070/W1080 would be a lot cheaper than that Mits, and probably have much lower lag. Or if you're willing to pay that much for a gaming projector (I don't know what the Mits would cost you, just the prices I saw quick) you could try to find something like a Planar LS 1/3/5, or maybe a sharp. My Planar 8150 has a lag of about 16ms and throws a beautiful picture, much better than the BenQ W5000 it replaced, and surely much better than the W1070 or any <$1k DLP.
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Old 05-20-2016, 11:12 AM
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Just keep in mind the mounting restrictions on the cheap DLP projectors. They usually do not have lens shift and often times very small throw range.

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Old 05-20-2016, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thezaks View Post
Thanks! Yes, I've seen that thread. I will also be looking at a 100" size - except, I'm looking at a motorized screen, so that I can watch a TV in daytime and the screen/projector at night. I'm sure white material has more punch to it, but I'm guessing it won't work so well at night in a non-optimized room, with a white ceiling and tan walls. I'm not looking to do 3D, so I don't need the extra brightness for that.


Dave
I think the DNP and RS400 will work nicely in your room, however, don't undermine JVC's ability in non-optimized rooms; it's lesser of an issue, at least, from what I've seen. I've had it for a month on a white wall and couldn't believe how colors and onscreen contrast images held its own.
So considering an upgrade to a RS500 and getting a cheaper white motorized screen for less might also be an alternative and cost less. YMMV
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Old 05-20-2016, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john2910 View Post
Hello there,


I think i am gonne setup a second projector for gaming.
I have now a JVC rs400 for movie watching.


Would be a MITSUBISHI HC9000D good for gaming?


Best regards
I may be wrong but i was thinking this projector has alot of lag like way above 50
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Old 05-20-2016, 01:42 PM
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I read >100ms for JVC.
Vivitek 1186 is a cheap+bright dlp PJ that actually has some lens shift and a decent zoom, with decent lag #'s.

Why waste $ on more cheap stuff, it's like challenging a dragon with a pocket knife.
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Old 05-20-2016, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by muzz View Post
I read >100ms for JVC.
Vivitek 1186 is a cheap+bright dlp PJ that actually has some lens shift and a decent zoom, with decent lag #'s.
i did use my x35 for a bit of gaming off consoles, nothing serious just a bit of fun. I understand later jvc projectors have a lot more lag.

"Technology is a drug. We can't get enough of it."


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Old 05-21-2016, 01:11 AM
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I do game on the JVC rs400 but the lag is terrible.
I am trying to find a solution with maybe a dual setup..
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Old 05-21-2016, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Just keep in mind the mounting restrictions on the cheap DLP projectors. They usually do not have lens shift and often times very small throw range.
Yup, but I believe the BenQ W1070 and Vivitek 1185 mentioned here do have zoom and lens shift.
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Old 05-21-2016, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Yup, but I believe the BenQ W1070 and Vivitek 1185 mentioned here do have zoom and lens shift.
The 1186 does, I think it's just vertical, but it's there cuz I used it.

Why waste $ on more cheap stuff, it's like challenging a dragon with a pocket knife.
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Old 05-21-2016, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Yup, but I believe the BenQ W1070 and Vivitek 1185 mentioned here do have zoom and lens shift.
That is why I said usually, because most of them do not have lens shift. Just was warning the poster to be sure and check, before purchasing.

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Old 05-21-2016, 03:16 PM
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I thought I recall reading the lens shift is very limited though on the BenQ.


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Old 05-21-2016, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
I thought I recall reading the lens shift is very limited though on the BenQ.
Lens shift and zoom range is pretty limited, but most of the cheap DLP's do not have any lens shift, so at least you have something to work with.

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Old 05-22-2016, 08:46 AM
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I had Chad B out for a recal recently on my RS4810. He calibrated a bt1886 gamma mode for me along with a power gamma of something like 2.26 - 2.27.

I posted in another thread how I did not like bt1886 based on my experience with my previous Panasonic VT60...especially on catalog titles where more of them were supposedly calibrated in the 2.2 range from what some insiders have said. I felt they looked "off" (too dark and contrasty).

However, I like bt1886 a lot on my RS4810 with newer titles. I have the power gamma to fall back on for catalog titles as I am not sure it will work as well on those, but need to do more testing as I have not had the chance to watch them. But on newer content (4-5 titles so far), I have been really impressed with it.

I think since front projection has low ansi contrast compared to some flat panels, the extra "pop" at the greater IRE gamma with bt1886 seems to work even better.

Just curious where you guys have your gamma?


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Old 05-23-2016, 10:56 AM
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Hello friends and thank Jason again for this great thread

First of all sorry for my English.

I have a dedicated home theater. It is equal a black cave. (Matte grey walls and ceiling) 106inch fixed frame elite 1.1 cinewhite screen

I have Sony HW50es. If i upgrade to jvc rs400 will there a be a huge difference with overall PQ?

Which one is sharper? Sony + Reality Creation ON or JVC 400 with Native lens?

Which one has more accurate colors with OUT of BOX?

What about Motion and 3D? I know gaming is bad with jvc.

Is it worth to upgrade? only difference is BLACK levels? I am not a huge fan of black level

Thank you

Last edited by cemo62; 05-24-2016 at 02:23 AM.
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Old 05-27-2016, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
I had Chad B out for a recal recently on my RS4810. He calibrated a bt1886 gamma mode for me along with a power gamma of something like 2.26 - 2.27.

I posted in another thread how I did not like bt1886 based on my experience with my previous Panasonic VT60...especially on catalog titles where more of them were supposedly calibrated in the 2.2 range from what some insiders have said. I felt they looked "off" (too dark and contrasty).

However, I like bt1886 a lot on my RS4810 with newer titles. I have the power gamma to fall back on for catalog titles as I am not sure it will work as well on those, but need to do more testing as I have not had the chance to watch them. But on newer content (4-5 titles so far), I have been really impressed with it.

I think since front projection has low ansi contrast compared to some flat panels, the extra "pop" at the greater IRE gamma with bt1886 seems to work even better.

Just curious where you guys have your gamma?
Do you have the actual gamma curve in 10 ire steps along with gamma at 5 ire? Do you have a dedicated HT that is also light controlled?

I am currently trying a 2.4 gamma at about 50 ire and above and 2.10 at 5 ire, 10 ire 2.2 and about 2.3 for 20 ire to 40 ire. As I have just set it up I have not had a chance to look at it but hopefully will soon.
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Old 05-28-2016, 09:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cemo62 View Post
Hello friends and thank Jason again for this great thread

First of all sorry for my English.

I have a dedicated home theater. It is equal a black cave. (Matte grey walls and ceiling) 106inch fixed frame elite 1.1 cinewhite screen

I have Sony HW50es. If i upgrade to jvc rs400 will there a be a huge difference with overall PQ?

Which one is sharper? Sony + Reality Creation ON or JVC 400 with Native lens?

Which one has more accurate colors with OUT of BOX?

What about Motion and 3D? I know gaming is bad with jvc.

Is it worth to upgrade? only difference is BLACK levels? I am not a huge fan of black level

Thank you
Any JVC from 2010-> is going to be more naturally sharp than any of the Sony 1080P models starting with the HW30. Reality creation does a good job fooling most eyes until you see the artifacts and then it's difficult to ignore with lesser quality movies with noise or film grain. I documented this close up in the last shootout thread when the HW50 was introduced.

Color out the box is very good on both models. Both have a good R709 default setting and both will need a greyscale calibration which is standard for any projector.

For 3D, I prefer the current JVC's over any of the Sony 1080P models and the VW500/600 or VW1100 4K models. The 2016 JVC's have noticeably better x-talk performance vs. those models. There are reported improvements in the 15K MSRP VW665 but even if that is the case, we are then only parity matching a 4K MSRP JVC model. quite a substantial price difference to get good 3D on a Sony.

If you're not a big fan of black level, then I would just keep the HW50. Given a proper comparison, I think you will definitely see (and appreciate) the difference in a light controlled, light treated room.




The problem with picking a single projector is that there isn't really 1 model that will excel in all areas that everyone is looking for. It would be like trying to a buy a car that has the best utility in every category.

I currently have the RS600 which is remarkable for BD and UHD content. High native contrast in a velvet batcave is addicting. I built this room to primarily watch movies and the JVC right now is the best choice for my preferences.



I still have the DC4 .95 Planar which I use occasionally for gaming. This is one of the best 1080P gaming projectors I've had here. Substantially sharper than the Sony 1080P models which are the only other projectors discussed here that can compete with lag time. The Planar is faster than any of the Sony's.

I also still have the Sharp 30K 3D DLP. I love this projector for the rock solid 3D image amd zero chance of x-talk or flicker. but I find myself using it less and less after extensive 3D viewing on the JVC. It can't be understated how well they did this year with 3D vs. previous years and the competition. X-talk performance is the closest to the 3D DLP that I have seen yet with contrast levels that 3D DLP or Sony 1080P models could only dream of.
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Old 05-28-2016, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Any JVC from 2010-> is going to be more naturally sharp than any of the Sony 1080P models starting with the HW30. Reality creation does a good job fooling most eyes until you see the artifacts and then it's difficult to ignore with lesser quality movies with noise or film grain. I documented this close up in the last shootout thread when the HW50 was introduced.

Color out the box is very good on both models. Both have a good R709 default setting and both will need a greyscale calibration which is standard for any projector.

For 3D, I prefer the current JVC's over any of the Sony 1080P models and the VW500/600 or VW1100 4K models. The 2016 JVC's have noticeably better x-talk performance vs. those models. There are reported improvements in the 15K MSRP VW665 but even if that is the case, we are then only parity matching a 4K MSRP JVC model. quite a substantial price difference to get good 3D on a Sony.

If you're not a big fan of black level, then I would just keep the HW50. Given a proper comparison, I think you will definitely see (and appreciate) the difference in a light controlled, light treated room.




The problem with picking a single projector is that there isn't really 1 model that will excel in all areas that everyone is looking for. It would be like trying to a buy a car that has the best utility in every category.

I currently have the RS600 which is remarkable for BD and UHD content. High native contrast in a velvet batcave is addicting. I built this room to primarily watch movies and the JVC right now is the best choice for my preferences.



I still have the DC4 .95 Planar which I use occasionally for gaming. This is one of the best 1080P gaming projectors I've had here. Substantially sharper than the Sony 1080P models which are the only other projectors discussed here that can compete with lag time. The Planar is faster than any of the Sony's.

I also still have the Sharp 30K 3D DLP. I love this projector for the rock solid 3D image amd zero chance of x-talk or flicker. but I find myself using it less and less after extensive 3D viewing on the JVC. It can't be understated how well they did this year with 3D vs. previous years and the competition. X-talk performance is the closest to the 3D DLP that I have seen yet with contrast levels that 3D DLP or Sony 1080P models could only dream of.
Zombie

I respect you but I do take issue with this statement:

"lesser quality movies with noise or film grain."

The cinematography of films like Taxi Driver or the Godfather definitely do not have "lesser quality" with regards to the integrity of their image.

The only thing that truly has " lesser quality" is the ability of the imaging technology(Reality Creation or E-Shift) to render those images with the appropriate method.

I have run material like this through the Sony 1000es and the Panasonic Ae2000 for 4 years now.
Increasing black levels(JVC) and resolution(Sony)do not benefit this type of material.
It took ownership of the Sony 1000es for me to appreciate this fact.
And it's something that the marketing forces behind both JVC and Sony are only too happy to obscure.
The fact that adding extra sharpness(be it perceptual-JVC or native-Sony) actually damages the integrity and quality of these types of images.

Panasonic understood this and implemented the detail clarity processor to filter images and most importantly ,parts within an image, with the correct sharpness.

Having seen the Detail clarity Processor in operation on material like the Godfather ,side by side with Reality Creation(of the Sony 1000es) it is not even a contest in terms of which PJ renders the images with the correct approach.
Not bad for a PJ(the Panny AE2000) which cost me 1 tenth of the price as the Sony 1000es.

I see that Ghostbusters and Star Trek II-The Wrath Of Khan are being given the HDR treatment.
Good luck...because I would almost bet my Sony1000es that they will look bloody awful with any measure of HDR applied.

They are 2 inherently grainy flicks(lots of optical dupes)....adding extra contrast will decimate the image.

The regular Blus for these 2 flicks look superior on my Panny than the Sony.
Aspects like this are not something the marketing divisions or sales reps from shops (or forums like this) will divulge.

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Old 05-28-2016, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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no cinematic offense intended - this was mainly in the context of comparing those movies to something like Oblivion which has a pristine source/transfer. With the JVC's you can turn off the MPC processing / e-shift and still end up with very good results with older content. With Sony, your stuck with the RC, turning scaling off altogether or a 3rd party scaler like a Lumagen or HTPC. That shouldn't have been necessary for a 25K MSRP projector.

Mad Max Road Warrior BD is a good example. Very gritty but nice sharp transfer. It looked better IMO on the JVC vs. the 1100 even with RC turned all the way down. The RC is just too aggressive and was always hoping they were going to fix this. I resorted to using an HTPC with MadVR to avoid the Sony processing.

I've had the Panasonic 4000 and 8000 here. I personally don't like Smoothscreeen technology. Why cripple a great video transfer with that technology? I understand it makes sense for those other films and it's great that it exists for the films you mentioned. But I wouldn't be watching a current BD on it vs. the other models we're discussing. The 8000 was a bit a mess with color uniformity issues, average - below average contrast, average 3D, etc. I don't think we'll see Panasonic back in the HT market.

have you tried an HTPC or Lumagen for your sources vs. the built in Sony processing?
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Old 05-28-2016, 12:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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quick update on the Dune 4K Solo. Originally I was testing this on the Sharp 30K 3D DLP projector and it had no issues with 3D BD ISO playback. I later discovered that the JVC was not seeing 3D from this device, no way to force it. Dune was quick to fix it and provided a beta firmware update to verify it's now working ok. It's good to see quick turnaround on issues with a newly released media player.

One of the great features is the ability to play back full menu or BD lite and immediately start the movie playing with no FBI warning, previews, etc.

The compact size + features + 2TB of local storage has a high cool factor, this one definitely stays.
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Old 05-28-2016, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by TheSony4KRises View Post
"lesser quality movies with noise or film grain."

The cinematography of films like Taxi Driver or the Godfather definitely do not have "lesser quality" with regards to the integrity of their image.

The only thing that truly has " lesser quality" is the ability of the imaging technology(Reality Creation or E-Shift) to render those images with the appropriate method.
I think the point zombie was trying to make is that the electronic sharpening that Sony uses, to make up for the poor lens, while working OK on very clean, noise free transfers, ends up causing noticeable artifacts on noisier or grittier content. That's saying nothing about the content, just the drawback of attempting to use electronic processing to make up for inferior physical/optical characteristics.
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Old 05-28-2016, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
i think the point zombie was trying to make is that the electronic sharpening that sony uses, to make up for the poor lens, while working ok on very clean, noise free transfers, ends up causing noticeable artifacts on noisier or grittier content. That's saying nothing about the content, just the drawback of attempting to use electronic processing to make up for inferior physical/optical characteristics.
QFT. I talked about this a few years back and thought the trend might catch on; manufacturers using cheaper lenses and trying you get away with it smart sharpening the image. Luckily it seems Sony is still the only one doing it with the relatively terrible lens quality in the HW 1080p lineup of projectors. Also I don't think the lens in the 6xx/5xx 4K Sony units are worthy of what Sony is asking for these projectors. Sony in general seems to be a step behind the competition with lens quality in the price bracket they try to sell their projectors in. This is just my general observation after seeing just about every projector worth owning over the past 10 or so years. The only Sony lens that's really impressed me in a recent SXRD model is the 1100ES's lens but unfortunately that model suffers from a couple inherent issues that caused me to sell it.

Last edited by Seegs108; 05-28-2016 at 01:30 PM.
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Old 05-28-2016, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
no cinematic offense intended - this was mainly in the context of comparing those movies to something like Oblivion which has a pristine source/transfer. With the JVC's you can turn off the MPC processing / e-shift and still end up with very good results with older content. With Sony, your stuck with the RC, turning scaling off altogether or a 3rd party scaler like a Lumagen or HTPC. That shouldn't have been necessary for a 25K MSRP projector.

Mad Max Road Warrior BD is a good example. Very gritty but nice sharp transfer. It looked better IMO on the JVC vs. the 1100 even with RC turned all the way down. The RC is just too aggressive and was always hoping they were going to fix this. I resorted to using an HTPC with MadVR to avoid the Sony processing.

I've had the Panasonic 4000 and 8000 here. I personally don't like Smoothscreeen technology. Why cripple a great video transfer with that technology? I understand it makes sense for those other films and it's great that it exists for the films you mentioned. But I wouldn't be watching a current BD on it vs. the other models we're discussing. The 8000 was a bit a mess with color uniformity issues, average - below average contrast, average 3D, etc. I don't think we'll see Panasonic back in the HT market.

have you tried an HTPC or Lumagen for your sources vs. the built in Sony processing?
No worries and thanks for the clarification.
One thing to remember is that this all relative. The word "cripple" is a bit too strong.
The Panny still puts out a relatively sharp image for digitally acquired flicks.
Back in 2007/08 the AE2000 was used by Technicolor Corp. for digital grading for a Hollywood studio(s).
The great cinematographer, Vilmos Zvigimond, who photographed Close Encounters Of The Third Kind, had the AE2000 as his projector of choice.

I have AB'd Oblivion on the Panny and Sony.
No doubt the Sony is sharper although the digital noise(intrinsic to digital photography) in low lit scenes is more apparent on the 1000es.
Maybe it's just me but i am very wary of shots with shallow depths of field that look overly sharpened.
It was the main reason I swayed away from the JVC HD1(despite having better black levels) in 2008 after ABing it with AE2000. The AE2000 just rendered the images in a more cinematic way relative to the HD1.

The Sony does have options(MPEG NR ect) to soften the images but they tend to yield artificial results as opposed to the "natural" softness that Panny's SmoothScreen applies(to the appropriate material). I am aware of uniformity issues and such forth in the 8000 series. If I remember correctly(I might be wrong on this) someone somewhere on this forum ABd the 8000 to the 2000 and despite lesser brightness and a bit less contrast , the 2000 turned out to be a better performer with uniformity and color reproduction.

Something else to consider is that as of 2016, the vast majority of flicks are still derived from 35mm sources(with optical duping).Anything predating the early 2000's still had photochemical processing(which is basically the first 100 years of movie flicks) Vs the last 10 years worth of 2K DIs.

So unless your movie collection ONLY consists of flicks which were made in the last 10-15 years you may find the Panny to be the better fit.
That has been the case with me...and I have an eclectic collection(2/3rds older flicks--1/3rd newer stuff)

Don't get me wrong I love my 1000es(even if it MAY have lost contrast)especially now I have it paired with an ISCI 1.25 anamorphic lens.
But sharpness is not everything when it comes to producing a palatable image.

Last edited by TheSony4KRises; 05-28-2016 at 05:40 PM.
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Old 05-28-2016, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
I think the point zombie was trying to make is that the electronic sharpening that Sony uses, to make up for the poor lens, while working OK on very clean, noise free transfers, ends up causing noticeable artifacts on noisier or grittier content. That's saying nothing about the content, just the drawback of attempting to use electronic processing to make up for inferior physical/optical characteristics.
The Lens on the Sony 1000es is one of the best out there.
It's the video processing(or the philosophy behind it---apply brutal sharpness to everything within an an image) that is at fault. Same goes for JVC and Epson.
It does not work.
Robert Harris--the man who restored Lawrence Of Arabia,The Godfather ect ect and who just happens to own a 1000/1100es(he had a 1080p JVC but ditched it for the 1000es) has already said that the "sharpening" that the Sony applies can be detrimental to certain types of material. Will find the link.
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