Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 491 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #14701 of 14723 Old 07-19-2016, 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
Guys Im curious to see what most of you think or do about motion judder on 24fps content (Blu rays)
It doesn't bother me. I don't use FI or anything else, I just have all my sources set to switch to 24fps output for film content.

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I currently use JRiver/Madvr these days with all my ripped 800 + BDs.
Ive been setting everything to 60Hz and using Madvr's "Smooth Motion" only. I certainly have lost everything connected with judder, but still 24fps movies will never look like 60fps films sadly
That's kind of the point, 24fps isn't 60fps and it's not supposed to look like it.

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What do others do regarding judder?
Dylan I'm so pleased you helped me regarding playing mixed content 24,50,60 etc etc.. all at 60Hz with madvrs smooth motion, I have no more slow syncing issues with the JVC.
You realize that madVR's Smooth Motion blends/blurs frames together to convert to 24 to 60fps right? There's no motion compensation going on, it's really meant for displays that can't switch to the correct refresh rate.

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But still nothing is perfect with 24fps BDs, its so disappointing.....
24fps output to a display that can handle it properly (display it at 48, 72, 96, 120Hz etc) is "perfect", it's exactly like you get at the theater.
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post #14702 of 14723 Old 07-19-2016, 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
We'll have to wait and see, i'm sure Cine4home will do his full tear down as soon as he gets it. Maybe it would make sense since the 5030 panels are so outdated, it probably would have been a monumental task to get them up to 2016 specs.

I'd like to see more tests with the LS10K / Sony VW665 and the JVC's for UHD. These frames were compared between the JVC / VW665 and the LS10K.

JVC UHD / Epson UHD

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/177013

JVC UHD / Sony UHD (this one is surprising - where is the 15K MSRP value here?)

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/175443

Sony UHD / Epson UHD

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/175335

imo I think the JVC renders it the best of the 3 but that's just my preference. UHD on the JVC RS600 looks remarkable, they did quite a good job as the first one out with the full HDMI chipset.
Wow, is this for real? Pseudo 4k kicking the butt of real 4k? Dunno about the colors, but there sure are more fine detail on that JVC compared to sony.


BTW, is there anywhere jvc e-shift comparison between 4k source and 1080p source? Would be nice to see how upscaling works with that pseudo 4k e-shift?
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post #14703 of 14723 Old 07-19-2016, 12:28 PM
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24fps output to a display that can handle it properly (display it at 48, 72, 96, 120Hz etc) is "perfect", it's exactly like you get at the theater.

24fps at home with a TV or a projector isn't exactly the same as we saw in a cinema when they had film.
Believe me I know after spending more than 35+ years as a cinema projectionist.


Cinemas when screening 35MM have a double shutter as the film sits in the gate stationary after pull down. The shutter closes on the film pull down from the intermittent sprocket, when the sprocket stops the shutter opens, it then does a second pass from the second shutter which blanks the image as it sits in the gate. This second pass gives a much smoother motion and prevents judder. This whole action is exactly the same as "black frame insertion" (as the frame is projected, its blacked out again before it moves to the next frame) Black frame insertion is a great process to smooth the motion but it looses light to the screen, exactly the same way that the double shutter does in the cinema with 35MM film.


If there was no judder or the motion problems from 24fps and was perfect on TVs and home projectors the manufacturers would never had spent all the time and money trying to make 24fps look good or run smooth.


24fps has been the curse of the film industry for years and was invented by Hollywood to save cost on film stock with sound. It was the shortest length of film they could use to work with sound, they knew anything longer than 24fps would be hugely better for image and sound but film cost money, the less they used the more in their pockets. We are still living from the times when silent cinema became the talkies...... But times move on and it looks like the industry is moving away from antiquated 24fps movies....
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post #14704 of 14723 Old 07-19-2016, 02:27 PM
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I kinda feel that the 24fps 48 double shuttered effect is part of what differentiates movies from tv, a kind of aesthetic that makes them different, so maybe that's why some people didn't like HFR and prefer the 'look' of 24. A bit like trying to make sure you don't have more than 12 or 14fL reflectance - to keep it 'cinematic'.

Mind you, somethings do get ingrained in our thinking and if things did move along until it was more of the norm, we'd probably get used to it and then may start to find the old stuff looking dated.

Are there moves within the industry to try and increase the frame rate in digital?
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post #14705 of 14723 Old 07-19-2016, 02:49 PM
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I kinda feel that the 24fps 48 double shuttered effect is part of what differentiates movies from tv, a kind of aesthetic that makes them different, so maybe that's why some people didn't like HFR and prefer the 'look' of 24. A bit like trying to make sure you don't have more than 12 or 14fL reflectance - to keep it 'cinematic'.

Mind you, somethings do get ingrained in our thinking and if things did move along until it was more of the norm, we'd probably get used to it and then may start to find the old stuff looking dated.

Are there moves within the industry to try and increase the frame rate in digital?

The problem is the brain has seen 24fps for sooo long its started to think that's what's right, real life doesn't look like 24fps. The industry has tried all sorts of tricks to make movies look more like real life, take 3D, but still they have never speeded up film through the gate. Mind you there has been times when they did, the original Oklahoma 70MM was at 30fps, but again it ran so fast through the projector with many more reel changes than with 24fps that it was very costly. There has been others too who have tried to get a more realistic image on the screen with faster frame rates, but it always comes back to money. The cinemas hate to spend money, its been that way since the days of silent films....


Sport looks fantastic on the screen since they are all shot at 60fps, everyone loves the look of them since they have amazing smooth motion. Its only a matter of time before we see movies looking the same way! Now that everything is digital and we no longer have the cost of film stock, there is no reason to remain with 24fps.


This is a bit dated but it still applies today. It makes a very good read and nothing has changed with the BDs we still buy today. It also gives the reasons why some prefer to play BDs at 60 rather than 24 to reduce judder. http://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm

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post #14706 of 14723 Old 07-19-2016, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
24fps at home with a TV or a projector isn't exactly the same as we saw in a cinema when they had film.
Believe me I know after spending more than 35+ years as a cinema projectionist.
It's exactly like what I see when I go to the theater today, which was my point.

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If there was no judder or the motion problems from 24fps and was perfect on TVs and home projectors the manufacturers would never had spent all the time and money trying to make 24fps look good or run smooth.
Not quite, it started with LCD TVs which had problems (beyond 24 fps judder), you'll note that high end DLP projectors still don't have FI.

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24fps has been the curse of the film industry for years and was invented by Hollywood to save cost on film stock with sound. It was the shortest length of film they could use to work with sound, they knew anything longer than 24fps would be hugely better for image and sound but film cost money, the less they used the more in their pockets. We are still living from the times when silent cinema became the talkies...... But times move on and it looks like the industry is moving away from antiquated 24fps movies....
So in other words, you're not looking for a way to display 24fps properly, but to convert it to higher frame rates?
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post #14707 of 14723 Old 07-19-2016, 06:05 PM - Thread Starter
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More folks want bitstreaming on the Xbox One S than I would have thought...

https://xbox.uservoice.com/forums/25...-audio-support

Canceled the Xbox, one of these on the way friday.






those extra 30 minutes cannot make up for the terrible casting of jesse eisenberg (wow did this ruin the movie for me..) and the whole Martha thing, but it will be some nice eye candy to skip around to the different action scenes.
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post #14708 of 14723 Old 07-19-2016, 07:07 PM
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It's exactly like what I see when I go to the theater today, which was my point.



Not quite, it started with LCD TVs which had problems (beyond 24 fps judder), you'll note that high end DLP projectors still don't have FI.



So in other words, you're not looking for a way to display 24fps properly, but to convert it to higher frame rates?

Yes well when your talking about digital cinemas of today that's a whole different ballgame, its no better/smoother than what film was, in fact I think its worse!. But 24fps didn't come from digital cinemas of today, it came from sound on film, 35MM in the late 20s.


Yes DLP still handles 24fps much better than all the others do, but most of us seek blacks!

There is nothing that you can do to make 24fps look any better really than what it already is. You can lesson the judder by using 60Hz but that too introduces another problem, more blur on moving images, but many prefer that over the judder. There are all the other technology's that the TV and projector manufacturers have been doing for years like frame interpolation, but everything comes as a compromise, usually artefacts.... Personally while we still continue to work with 24fps material I would rather use Black frame Insertion as its the closest thing to 35MM projection with a double shutter. Its basically giving us 24>48 but it too has its own artefact, loss of light.


If and when projector manufacturers introduce massive lumens plus BFI, 24fps will continue to show judder and poor motion.


I'm just a bit disappointed the new JVCs don't have BFI like the old models did...


When we see faster frame rates become the norm and you become used to looking at images that are closer to real life, you will laugh at going back and watching a 24fps movie

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post #14709 of 14723 Old 07-19-2016, 08:01 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't see an obvious difference between the .95 Planar and the JVC when viewing the 24 frame BD's.

this topic is a matter of preference for certain, I personally like watching movies in 24 frame on all my projectors with no FI. It feels like a movie in 24 frame, I don't want my movies looking like a sporting event. Or even the hobbit @ 48 which didn't get a good reception.

I can see it now - another double dip when buying a movie. 24 frame and 60 frame releases on separate SKU's.
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post #14710 of 14723 Old 07-19-2016, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
I don't see an obvious difference between the .95 Planar and the JVC when viewing the 24 frame BD's.

this topic is a matter of preference for certain, I personally like watching movies in 24 frame on all my projectors with no FI. It feels like a movie in 24 frame, I don't want my movies looking like a sporting event. Or even the hobbit @ 48 which didn't get a good reception.

I can see it now - another double dip when buying a movie. 24 frame and 60 frame releases on separate SKU's.


Agree, personally I would never want to move away from 24fps. For me its all part of the art form. I will never get used to it. Cannot undo 25 years of intense movie watching, that frame rate is burned into my brain as what cinema is.

Dark frame insertion or showing each frame in multiples at a higher panel refresh rate like the JVCs and Sony's do does help with the flow of it IMO.

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post #14711 of 14723 Old 07-20-2016, 01:58 AM
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I don't think replicating 'real life' is what the aim is, otherwise I'm sure things would have moved more towards that since film was introduced.

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post #14712 of 14723 Old 07-20-2016, 02:28 AM
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I don't think replicating 'real life' is what the aim is, otherwise I'm sure things would have moved more towards that since film was introduced.
You are right as in the past that costs huge money, film stock!
But times have changed, film is finished and the need for 24fps and the negatives that come with it will eventually go whether we like it or not.....
Faster frame rates and the positives that come with it don't cost the film makers as it did in the past.
Its only a matter of time.....
I don't want to replace my 800+ BDs either, but I do want better looking images and motion and I'm sure it will be with us soon.....

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post #14713 of 14723 Old 07-20-2016, 03:11 AM
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I will never get used to it. Cannot undo 25 years of intense movie watching, that frame rate is burned into my brain as what cinema is.
That's a powerful statement. I suspect it's like this for anyone basically. And I don't expect this to change anytime in the near future because young people of today are being raised on the 24p movie library. And when they're older and become the movie industry they have this aquired taste for 24p already. And the cycle continues.

The only way I can think of where 60p+ might dominate over 24p is with 3D/VR or other new kinds of presentation.
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post #14714 of 14723 Old 07-20-2016, 03:40 AM
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http://www.canonwatch.com/canon-expa...jector-lineup/
Canon U.S.A. Expands Their 4K Projector Lineup With The Robust And Versatile REALiS 4K501ST Pro AV LCOS Projector

5000 lumens and about $59k sony has some competition....

"Technology is a drug. We can't get enough of it."


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post #14715 of 14723 Old 07-20-2016, 03:52 AM
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http://www.canonwatch.com/canon-expa...jector-lineup/
Canon U.S.A. Expands Their 4K Projector Lineup With The Robust And Versatile REALiS 4K501ST Pro AV LCOS Projector

5000 lumens and about $59k sony has some competition....
Competition is always a good thing for us consumers! . . . and Canon should certainly know how to make a good lens!
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post #14716 of 14723 Old 07-20-2016, 04:09 AM
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4K501ST projector delivers an ideal combination of both brightness (up to 5000 lumens) and contrast ratio (up to 3000:1)
contrast ratio (up to 3000:1)
up to 3000:1
3000:1
...
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post #14717 of 14723 Old 07-20-2016, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
There is nothing that you can do to make 24fps look any better really than what it already is. You can lesson the judder by using 60Hz but that too introduces another problem, more blur on moving images, but many prefer that over the judder.
60Hz makes things worse, instead of just the low frame rate, you now have 3:2 cadence judder.

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I don't see an obvious difference between the .95 Planar and the JVC when viewing the 24 frame BD's.
Yup me either, finally having a JVC in my own HT (plus JVC's updates up to and including my RS4910) have made motion a non-issue for me with projectors.

Quote:
this topic is a matter of preference for certain, I personally like watching movies in 24 frame on all my projectors with no FI. It feels like a movie in 24 frame, I don't want my movies looking like a sporting event. Or even the hobbit @ 48 which didn't get a good reception.
Yup, agreed completely. What I've seen of HFR is that it looks like actors on a set. My theory is that since it does look so real, our brains interpret it as reality, where as the slightly staccato nature of film/24fps allows our brains (well mine at least) to just accept what it sees. It aids in the suspension of disbelief that is key when watching a movie. To me, HFR inhibits that suspension of disbelief, and takes me right out of the movie.

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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Agree, personally I would never want to move away from 24fps. For me its all part of the art form. I will never get used to it. Cannot undo 25 years of intense movie watching, that frame rate is burned into my brain as what cinema is.
I am keeping my mind open, perhaps with some practice/experimentation, film makers will be able to successfully make use of HFR, but I think it will take some new techniques, if it's possible. Who knows, maybe Cameron can pull it off...
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post #14718 of 14723 Old 07-21-2016, 09:30 AM - Thread Starter
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That's being generous, I bet they know, and don't care or can't do anything about it, so they dodge the question and fall back to their "color brightness" BS.
as we're waiting for the cine4home info to back up PC's numbers on the 5040, I found an older article from Evan that better explains the details of how Epson is getting their Color Light Output #'s.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/lcd-...ght-output.htm

Color Light Output ("CLO"): The CLO method is similar, but instead of using a 100% white test pattern, one uses red, green and blue test patterns instead. Separate meter readings are taken for red, green, and blue, then added together. This time if we end up with 3000 lumens, that is the maximum brightness of color that the projector is capable of. So it is called color brightness, or color light output.

This makes sense where they get the outrageous claim of 2500 CLO on the Epson 5030. Of course the combination of the 3 colors measured separately are going to have a high measurement. Especially green. The dynamic torch mode is way too green and can't be calibrated down without the LPE filter. Even then gamma is quite off in that mode.

obviously they weren't going to advertise 700 D65 lumens. If the ~900 calibrated is accurate on the new models, it would show that there is something inherit to the LCD technology that causes such a large drop from max output.

JVC and Sony 4K models to a somewhat lesser extent have been very good with the last generation of advertised lumen output vs. D65/R709 reality. JVC nailed it with the 2016 models and surprised many folks out there. I'd like to see Epson be more honest here and drop the CLO advertisement on their products.
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post #14719 of 14723 Old 07-21-2016, 09:37 AM
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I always thought it was mostly due to the lamp, that a lamp that was weak in red generally ended up with a huge drop in brightness because you have to bring green down so much to hit D65. I guess it was my assumption that JVC/Sony have just sourced better, more D65 balanced lamps for their higher end projectors. But maybe LCD panels just don't pass red (near infrared?) efficiently?
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post #14720 of 14723 Old 07-22-2016, 08:41 AM - Thread Starter
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best amazon delivery in a while I've been waiting to get a hold of one of these, they are not easy to get at MSRP. Video card scalpers - who would have thought?



full 18GB HDMI 2.0b, HDR support, etc. hopefully someone starts working on UHD playback on the PC.

I can't wait to push this to it's limits with MadVR scaling, should look amazing.
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post #14721 of 14723 Old 07-22-2016, 02:40 PM
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best amazon delivery in a while I've been waiting to get a hold of one of these, they are not easy to get at MSRP. Video card scalpers - who would have thought?



full 18GB HDMI 2.0b, HDR support, etc. hopefully someone starts working on UHD playback on the PC.

I can't wait to push this to it's limits with MadVR scaling, should look amazing.

Ive been using the 1080 with madvr and JRiver now for three weeks, amazing!
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post #14722 of 14723 Old 07-22-2016, 09:29 PM - Thread Starter
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waited 3 years to swap out the 780TI.

Fits perfect in the shuttle SFF with less power draw than the old card. time to check out MadVR.. then Doom.
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How are you liking Doom Zombie? I've had a marginally good time playing it. Certainly fun on the nostalgia factor, but pretty tough at the same time.
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