Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 492 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #14731 of 14742 Unread Today, 12:51 AM
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According to the people who have looked into this matter, because they wanted to compare the dynamic range of digital cameras such as the Reds and the Arris with traditional movie film cameras, 35 mm film has approx 14-15 stops of dynamic range and 70mm film has closer to 17 stops, IIRC.
What that means is that blu-ray SDR is way below what Casablanca, for example, was shot in and capable of showing or displaying.
HDR 10 and even more so 12 bit Dolby Vision with dynamic metadata, is much closer to the actual dynamic range of 35mm and 70mm film stock.
Having said that, of course there are all sorts of other variables such as the brightness of the projector/tv and it's contrast ratio, viewing conditions etc which also need to be taken into account.
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post #14732 of 14742 Unread Today, 02:10 AM
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How does that equate to the actual contrast of the film stock we see in theatres, which is typically not a great deal more than 2000:1?

I also seem to remember seeing it said here that the cameras can only capture around that number too.

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post #14733 of 14742 Unread Today, 02:55 AM
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How does that equate to the actual contrast of the film stock we see in theatres, which is typically not a great deal more than 2000:1?

I also seem to remember seeing it said here that the cameras can only capture around that number too.
I have no idea, to be honest.
I do know that the quality of a film print varies greatly with age and how well the projectionists maintained the projector in each theatre so there are a large number of variables involved, even if the theatre did or does try and keep to THX or industry standard recommendations.
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Yeah, print quality suffers a lot from the original negative - bulk release prints tend to lose some resolution in the process, and a few runs through the projector can add wear and tear, leaving us with a lot less effective resolution than with digital.

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post #14735 of 14742 Unread Today, 04:34 AM
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I believe celluloid is in the region of 15-20k:1 captured contrast ratio with 14-15 stops of dynamic range as mentioned above.

A camera like the Arri Alexa can capture even more contrast.

I used to have a link which broke down various cameras but can't find it right now.
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post #14736 of 14742 Unread Today, 05:01 AM
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I get that. I was only talking actual dynamic range captured on film stock. What I don't want to see is studios going back and adding extra brightness that didn't originally exist in the master just because they can.
Agreed. I'm sure some will, but I hope it will be like surround sound where it's generally not misused.

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I understand that Rec.709 is limited compared to current DCI standards, or the color gamut of older movies shot on film. That's what BT.2020 address. But that's color gamut, not dynamic range. The two are related, but need to be considered separately, right? As I understand it, HDR10 specifies BT.2020 as its color space, but BT.2020 doesn't actually dynamic range, does it?
Correct, but what I'm getting at is that Rec.709 specifies a max liminance of 100nit (approx 30fL), and only 235 (usable) steps from black to peak white. SMPTE ST.2084 (the EOTF used in UHD Blu-ray), specifies a max luminance of 10,000nits (approx 300fL), but with 876 levels (12 bit provides another 4x the levels). This means that there are more levels over which to spread the bits, meaning more information can be retained.

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Because HDR is a new standard in theaters just like home theaters, it isn't clear to me whether or not the dynamic range on blu ray discs is compressed when compared to the original masters (based on your answer above, I assume so, but I want to make sure). To make an imperfect analogy, Casablanca was recorded in mono. Fortunately the blu ray is also in mono. I don't think I'd like to see a remixed 7.1 version of the soundtrack because it wouldn't be true to the original. On the other hand, I welcomed the 1080p blu ray because it gave me much more resolution that wasn't there on my old DVD - resolution that go me much closer to the quality of the original 35mm film.
I'm not sure "compressed" is really the right word there. When you go to the the theater the DCI master is 12 bits and uses it's own EOTF, meaning there's a lot more information there than what we get at home. Also even within the nominal 100nit range, the added codes mean colors can be more faithfully reproduced (more vivid) without even going into overdoing things.

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So my question, asked way too convolutedly after a huge meal and a few glasses of wine, is whether or not HDR, when added to an ~30 year old film is more like creating a 7.1 soundtrack from a mono source (bad in my book), or revealing more resolution inherent in the original (good in everyone's book). I' not sure if I'm making sense or not. I don't quite have the mental faculty at the moment to figure that out.
Sure, it could be overdone, you could take a film movie and stretch it all the way to 10k nits, and that would be bad. But you don't have to, and so far I haven't seen it done (I haven't seen a lot of UHD movies yet though). Producers don't have to use the whole HDR pallate. IMO the "HDR" name was unfortunate, HDR photography has been around long enough that the "HDR" term bring very specific (photography) connotations with it that are incorrect when we talk HDR in video/movies.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
When you go to the the theater the DCI master is 12 bits and uses it's own EOTF, meaning there's a lot more information there than what we get at home. Also even within the nominal 100nit range, the added codes mean colors can be more faithfully reproduced (more vivid) without even going into overdoing things.
I've read that they master the content for the DCI encode so that projectors should be using a 2.6 gamma. I never understood this when you factor in that DCI projectors don't have enough contrast to be able to pull off a 2.6 gamma without serious crush. Maybe it helps give the appearance of more contrast on these limited contrast machines?
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movies 30, 50 or 60 years ago.... many of these have been made on magnificent film stock with the very best of intent in getting best from the format. testament to the wonderfull restorations we have seen. some of these old movies are using massive film stock e.g. Todd - O . also audio wise e.g. with sound of music they had 5 ! front channels which have been mixed beautifully with modern decoding to render imaging to quite a bit of precision. hollywood seem masters at getting us old classics to the point they are a real treat audio and visual and yet respecting what they are. am looking forward to abyss and will keep and open mind with both the blu-ray and with HDR via uhd if comes forth. the post earlier re dynamic range capability of film was great to know !

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Man the Abyss is one of my favourite films ever! So much excite!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I've read that they master the content for the DCI encode so that projectors should be using a 2.6 gamma. I never understood this when you factor in that DCI projectors don't have enough contrast to be able to pull off a 2.6 gamma without serious crush. Maybe it helps give the appearance of more contrast on these limited contrast machines?
I was thinking it was more complicated than that.
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post #14741 of 14742 Unread Today, 08:16 AM
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Thank you everyone for the great conversation around my drunken rambling last night.
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post #14742 of 14742 Unread Today, 08:57 AM
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I was thinking it was more complicated than that.
Unless they've changed the standard it should still be a 2.6 gamma curve used for mastering. Here's a PowerPoint I found:

http://www.edcf.net/edcf_docs/DCI%2520Requirements%2520-%2520Dynamics%2520final.pdf
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