Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 493 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #14761 of 15230 Old 08-02-2016, 10:22 PM
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I'm not exactly sure when this conversation turned into a discussion about PCs...but whoa, did you guys see the new Titan X?

http://www.pcworld.com/article/31020...by-pascal.html
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post #14762 of 15230 Old 08-02-2016, 10:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bluescale View Post
I'm not exactly sure when this conversation turned into a discussion about PCs...but whoa, did you guys see the new Titan X?

http://www.pcworld.com/article/31020...by-pascal.html
This GPU is how Skynet starts...


The 1080 is amazing so far. The discussion is relevant to the projectors since we've been talking about HTPC's scaling 1080P->2160P using MadVR It takes a very powerful GPU for the maximum PQ and looking forward to trying out the 1080 with the JVC RS600.
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post #14763 of 15230 Old 08-02-2016, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
This GPU is how Skynet starts...


The 1080 is amazing so far. The discussion is relevant to the projectors since we've been talking about HTPC's scaling 1080P->2160P using MadVR It takes a very powerful GPU for the maximum PQ and looking forward to trying out the 1080 with the JVC RS600.
Hey Jason,

how close are your settings to the ones I PM'd you? Did you give them a look? Thoughts?

Are you successfully able to use NNEDI3?

I have noticed there is some very fine aliasing using SuperXBR which I can live with, though NNEDI3 is supposed to get rid of it...

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post #14764 of 15230 Old 08-03-2016, 09:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey Jason,

how close are your settings to the ones I PM'd you? Did you give them a look? Thoughts?

Are you successfully able to use NNEDI3?

I have noticed there is some very fine aliasing using SuperXBR which I can live with, though NNEDI3 is supposed to get rid of it...
Hi, thanks for the great details in the PM, I haven't had a chance to try it yet but will give it a go this weekend.

@Seegs108 - can you provide some feedback here, are you still using your 980 SLI rig for MadVR?
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post #14765 of 15230 Old 08-03-2016, 09:54 AM
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Hi, thanks for the great details in the PM, I haven't had a chance to try it yet but will give it a go this weekend.

@Seegs108 - can you provide some feedback here, are you still using your 980 SLI rig for MadVR?
I think the best post ever on NNEDI3 was by @madshi himself here. Unfortunately MadVR doesn't support SLI so you can only use a single card with it for processing. With that said, a single GTX 980 is still powerful enough to enable both 32 neurons for Chroma upscaling and 16 Neurons for Image Doubling for 1080p to UHD scaling. I had a post in this thread here last year about it. I found this combination looks quite excellent. If a GTX 1080 is powerful enough to do 32 Neurons for both I think that would be the sweet spot. Even Madshi says there's a huge point of diminished returns past 32 Neurons. NNEDI3 works really well for scaling Anime and that type of content scales best with the higher Neuron count. Even though madshi recommends image doubling at 32 neurons for optimal results, I found it extremely difficult to see any benefits going from 16 to 32 with regular live action film content. Obviously YMMV depending on the content.
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post #14766 of 15230 Old 08-03-2016, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
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great, thank you for re-posting the links. I patiently waited for the jump from the 780 to the 1080 so I'm excited to try this out.
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post #14767 of 15230 Old 08-03-2016, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
The 1080 is amazing so far. The discussion is relevant to the projectors since we've been talking about HTPC's scaling 1080P->2160P using MadVR It takes a very powerful GPU for the maximum PQ and looking forward to trying out the 1080 with the JVC RS600.
I haven't made the jump to 4k yet, but I'm really interested in trying madvr's 2x supersampling feature. I'm eyeballing the 1070, or possibly the RX480. I've stuck with Nvidia through the years, but the current price structure makes the RX480 look pretty attractive. I'm coming from a 750 TI, so whatever I get will be a HUGE improvement.
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post #14768 of 15230 Old 08-03-2016, 10:33 AM
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@zombie10k ,

try NNEDI3 image doubling combined with SuperRes "upscaling refinement" (with all SuperRes sub-options unchecked). I like the combination, it makes images extra sharp and detailed. SuperRes sometimes even "fixes" some problems NNEDI3 by itself might still have. If you still want a bit more sharpness than NNEDI3 + maxed-out-SuperRes provide, then try adding a bit of "crispen edges" in "upscaling refinement". Or alternatively to "crispen edges" you can try "AdaptiveSharpen" with anti-bloating, which might be slightly higher quality, but also higher GPU cost. I think this should put the Darbee to shame, especially because "upscaling refinement" is applied in the upscaled resolution, while Darbee sharpens before scaling, which produces lower quality.

The 1080 is really mighty, but if you unexpectedly run into performance issues, try using super-xbr (with activated anti-ringing) for chroma upscaling instead of NNEDI3. Almost the same quality with much lower GPU cost.

As a projector user you may also want to look into the "zoom control" settings page. This page, combined with the projector device's "screen config" page allows you to fully automate CIH, CIW and CIA setups. madVR will then automatically detect black bars which are hard coded in Blu-Rays (e.g. Cinemascope movies) and zoom the image to fit your screen. Alternatively, madVR can also remote control your projector (only works for JVC and Sony projectors with lens memory and IP control capability) to automatically activate a specific lens memory, depending on the movie aspect ratio. You can also define how you want IMAX Blu-Rays with switching ARs to be handled (e.g. always zoom in, always zoom out, always zoom half way, or dynamically adjust AR). Whatever your front projection setup needs are, madVR should be able to automate everything. You may have to use settings profiles for best effect. E.g. when using an anamorphic lens only for scope movies, you will need to create two different "screen config" settings and auto switch between them with the "profile auto select rules".
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post #14769 of 15230 Old 08-03-2016, 11:05 AM
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The 1080 is really mighty, but if you unexpectedly run into performance issues...
Then buy a GTX Titan XP
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post #14770 of 15230 Old 08-03-2016, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
As a projector user you may also want to look into the "zoom control" settings page. This page, combined with the projector device's "screen config" page allows you to fully automate CIH, CIW and CIA setups. madVR will then automatically detect black bars which are hard coded in Blu-Rays (e.g. Cinemascope movies) and zoom the image to fit your screen. Alternatively, madVR can also remote control your projector (only works for JVC and Sony projectors with lens memory and IP control capability) to automatically activate a specific lens memory, depending on the movie aspect ratio. You can also define how you want IMAX Blu-Rays with switching ARs to be handled (e.g. always zoom in, always zoom out, always zoom half way, or dynamically adjust AR). Whatever your front projection setup needs are, madVR should be able to automate everything. You may have to use settings profiles for best effect. E.g. when using an anamorphic lens only for scope movies, you will need to create two different "screen config" settings and auto switch between them with the "profile auto select rules".
It's funny. Even though I was one of your test guinea pigs when creating this piece of software, I haven't tried to see how efficient this works. Maybe tonight I'll set up a few lens memories and test out going back and forth between aspect ratios on my scope screen.
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post #14771 of 15230 Old 08-03-2016, 11:15 AM
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post #14772 of 15230 Old 08-03-2016, 12:59 PM
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While we're OT, how much worse is a 1060 (or 1070) for madVR?
User reports are that the 1070 works very well with MadVR. I haven't seen much about the 1060 yet, but I haven't actively looked for it. I keep trying to convince myself that the RX 480 will be great for me, but I'm not convinced it'll have the HP if I decide to move to 4k within the next year. Here's a relevant post I found on the doom9 forum (no info on the 1060 yet - in either the post of the spreadsheet):

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...92#post1773192
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post #14773 of 15230 Old 08-04-2016, 03:45 AM
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It's funny. Even though I was one of your test guinea pigs when creating this piece of software, I haven't tried to see how efficient this works. Maybe tonight I'll set up a few lens memories and test out going back and forth between aspect ratios on my scope screen.
How are you handling the scope stuff right now, if not with lens memories or zooming? Are you moving in an anamorphic lens for scope movies?

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While we're OT, how much worse is a 1060 (or 1070) for madVR?
The 1060 is slightly better than half a 1080. It's all a question of how much compromises you're willing to make. Doubling NNEDI3 neuron count doubles GPU power, so when using an 1060, you may have to lower the NNEDI3 neuron count by one step size (e.g. from 64 to 32, or from 32 to 16), compared to the 1080. I think the 1060 should probably do fine for 1080p24 -> 4Kp24 playback, if you're willing to compromise a little bit (not too much).

Haven't done any 1080p24 -> 4Kp24 benchmarks, though, so I can't really say which kind of GPU is necessary for which exact settings.
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post #14774 of 15230 Old 08-04-2016, 03:59 AM
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How are you handling the scope stuff right now, if not with lens memories or zooming? Are you moving in an anamorphic lens for scope movies?







The 1060 is slightly better than half a 1080. It's all a question of how much compromises you're willing to make. Doubling NNEDI3 neuron count doubles GPU power, so when using an 1060, you may have to lower the NNEDI3 neuron count by one step size (e.g. from 64 to 32, or from 32 to 16), compared to the 1080. I think the 1060 should probably do fine for 1080p24 -> 4Kp24 playback, if you're willing to compromise a little bit (not too much).



Haven't done any 1080p24 -> 4Kp24 benchmarks, though, so I can't really say which kind of GPU is necessary for which exact settings.


Im using Kodi DSPlayer with the latest version of MadVr and a GTX 1080, I actually get a black screen when I enable NNEDI3 at any setting at all. Video just wont play. This is specifically using image doubling from 1080 to 4k.

Same thing was happening with my GTX970 before the new card. My PC is powerful too, not sure why its happening.

Using exclusive mode, dx11 is on.

While a video is playing I can enable pretty much any option under the sun and it switches in real time but any time I select an NNEDI option it just seems to crash.

Any ideas?

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post #14775 of 15230 Old 08-04-2016, 04:23 AM
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Don't know, try reinstalling the GPU drivers? Every bigger Windows 10 update seems to remove the OpenCL drivers for some reason only known to Microsoft.
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post #14776 of 15230 Old 08-04-2016, 04:26 AM
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Don't know, try reinstalling the GPU drivers? Every bigger Windows 10 update seems to remove the OpenCL drivers for some reason only known to Microsoft.


Definitely did that multiple times. Especially when I got my new card.

Oh well, guess its just broken.

OpenCL works in other apps.

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post #14777 of 15230 Old 08-04-2016, 05:13 AM
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How are you handling the scope stuff right now, if not with lens memories or zooming? Are you moving in an anamorphic lens for scope movies.
Not seegs but have to say I absolutely love the black bar and aspect ratio detection, zoom, and anamorphic screen stuff you put into MadVR.

I used hate watching those IMAX blurays that switch aspect ratios, but with MadVR it switches aspect ratios and zooms in and out so fast you don't even really notice.

This probably made one of the biggest improvements to my home theatre experience after I had setup my dedicated room with scope projection.

Lol... Used grumble about having to use my Mede8r for 3D movies, because I had to press lens memory buttons on my remote and then you and Hendrik added that to MadVR and LAV too.
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post #14778 of 15230 Old 08-04-2016, 07:38 AM
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How are you handling the scope stuff right now, if not with lens memories or zooming? Are you moving in an anamorphic lens for scope movies?
I have an ISCO IIIL anamorphic lens with a motorized lens transport. It gets a 12 volt trigger command to move in and out of place when there's scope content being played.
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post #14779 of 15230 Old 08-04-2016, 07:50 AM
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Im using Kodi DSPlayer with the latest version of MadVr and a GTX 1080, I actually get a black screen when I enable NNEDI3 at any setting at all. Video just wont play. This is specifically using image doubling from 1080 to 4k.
Does this happen *only* with image doubling? Not too long ago, as a lark, I turned on NNEDI3 for chroma upscaling, and encountered no problems, other than my GPU being woefully underpowered and unable to keep up.
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post #14780 of 15230 Old 08-06-2016, 10:00 AM - Thread Starter
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@zombie10k ,

try NNEDI3 image doubling combined with SuperRes "upscaling refinement" (with all SuperRes sub-options unchecked). I like the combination, it makes images extra sharp and detailed. SuperRes sometimes even "fixes" some problems NNEDI3 by itself might still have. If you still want a bit more sharpness than NNEDI3 + maxed-out-SuperRes provide, then try adding a bit of "crispen edges" in "upscaling refinement". Or alternatively to "crispen edges" you can try "AdaptiveSharpen" with anti-bloating, which might be slightly higher quality, but also higher GPU cost. I think this should put the Darbee to shame, especially because "upscaling refinement" is applied in the upscaled resolution, while Darbee sharpens before scaling, which produces lower quality.

The 1080 is really mighty, but if you unexpectedly run into performance issues, try using super-xbr (with activated anti-ringing) for chroma upscaling instead of NNEDI3. Almost the same quality with much lower GPU cost.
Thank you for posting here, I just set up JRiver + MadVR today. I am not seeing an issue playing back with NNEDI3. I'll try these recommendations tonight on the RS600 and post some feedback.
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post #14781 of 15230 Old 08-06-2016, 10:10 AM
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Thank you for posting here, I just set up JRiver + MadVR today.
I'll be interested to know if you have any issues with lip sync. I've had a devil of a time getting JRiver + MadVR to sync consistently.
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post #14782 of 15230 Old 08-06-2016, 10:14 AM
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Thank you for posting here, I just set up JRiver + MadVR today. I am not seeing an issue playing back with NNEDI3. I'll try these recommendations tonight on the RS600 and post some feedback.
I'm quite curious to hear your impressions!

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I'll be interested to know if you have any issues with lip sync. I've had a devil of a time getting JRiver + MadVR to sync consistently.
That's surprising. Never heard of that problem yet. FWIW, every DirectShow graph has a "master" or "reference" clock, which all renderers (audio and video) are supposed to sync to. madVR does that very strictly. If you had sync issues, it's very likely that the audio renderer you used in JRiver was at fault. In such a case try using a different audio renderer.
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post #14783 of 15230 Old 08-06-2016, 10:27 AM
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That's surprising. Never heard of that problem yet. FWIW, every DirectShow graph has a "master" or "reference" clock, which all renderers (audio and video) are supposed to sync to. madVR does that very strictly. If you had sync issues, it's very likely that the audio renderer you used in JRiver was at fault. In such a case try using a different audio renderer.
My audio renderer is WASAPI. I've had lots of problems trying to get ASIO to work consistently, and I believe everything else goes through the Windows mixer, which I obviously don't want to do. I think I've got the problem resolved now. There were two things I needed to do:

1. Disable smooth motion. I don't know why, but enabling smooth motion just caused me grief.
2. I had to set up independent manual lip sync corrections for 24Hz vs 50/60/120Hz.
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post #14784 of 15230 Old 08-06-2016, 10:34 AM
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My audio renderer is WASAPI. I've had lots of problems trying to get ASIO to work consistently, and I believe everything else goes through the Windows mixer, which I obviously don't want to do. I think I've got the problem resolved now. There were two things I needed to do:

1. Disable smooth motion. I don't know why, but enabling smooth motion just caused me grief.
2. I had to set up independent manual lip sync corrections for 24Hz vs 50/60/120Hz.
Your audio renderer isn't WASAPI. It might be using WASAPI exclusive mode, but there's no such thing as a WASAPI audio renderer. JRiver most likely has it's own audio renderer and it's using WASAPI exclusive mode and is what's at fault here. If you still see problems I'd recommend installing MPC-HC to see if you're experiencing the same lip sync issue. With MPC-HC you can also try out different audio renderers that may resolve your issues. Reclock is always an option.
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post #14785 of 15230 Old 08-06-2016, 11:52 AM
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Your audio renderer isn't WASAPI. It might be using WASAPI exclusive mode, but there's no such thing as a WASAPI audio renderer.
You're right. Thanks for the correction.

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JRiver most likely has it's own audio renderer and it's using WASAPI exclusive mode and is what's at fault here. If you still see problems I'd recommend installing MPC-HC to see if you're experiencing the same lip sync issue. With MPC-HC you can also try out different audio renderers that may resolve your issues. Reclock is always an option.
I'm pretty sure you're right that JRiver is the culprit, but it's only when JRiver is working in conjunction MadVR. If I switch to Red October Standard, rather than HQ (which uses JRiver), the problem goes away. Setting different sync delays for different refresh rates *seems* to have sorted the problem out for me.

JRiver has it's own feature called VideoClock. I have that enabled. Without it, lip sync tends to drift as well.
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post #14786 of 15230 Old 08-06-2016, 01:57 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm quite curious to hear your impressions!
1st impression is that those recommendations look excellent! I spent about an hour looking at familiar content. Thank you very much for all your efforts with this application, remarkable amount of control and definitely prefer this upscaling vs. the Lumagen.

I'm going to keep testing different settings but the 1080 has been great so far with handling your recommendations.

bluescale - I didn't see any lipsync issue with my setup.. HDMI 2.0 -> JVC and then DVI -> HDMI to my Denon 4311.


since we're talking HTPC on the RS600 in UHD mode, this brings up an interesting topic I wasn't expecting to see. When running the Win 10 desktop in 3840x2160 mode, the appearance of 8 point windows font (on the icons) looks much better than it did on the last JVC RS6710 I had here recently. This leaves e-shift 3 vs e-shift 4. I'm surprised this wasn't discussed before but maybe not too many had this setup + last gen + current. CIne4home demonstrated this with UHD content.



I could easily read and adjust all settings from 14+ feet from the 142". This isn't windows scaling, nothing else was different with the PC. It's no wonder UHD content looks so good.
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post #14787 of 15230 Old 08-06-2016, 02:40 PM
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You're right. Thanks for the correction.



I'm pretty sure you're right that JRiver is the culprit, but it's only when JRiver is working in conjunction MadVR. If I switch to Red October Standard, rather than HQ (which uses JRiver), the problem goes away. Setting different sync delays for different refresh rates *seems* to have sorted the problem out for me.

JRiver has it's own feature called VideoClock. I have that enabled. Without it, lip sync tends to drift as well.

Im using JRiver with madvr, JR reclock and the 1080 card, never ever had a lip sync problem.

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post #14788 of 15230 Old 08-06-2016, 03:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Murray - how are you remotely controlling JRiver, with a media center type remote control?
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post #14789 of 15230 Old 08-06-2016, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Murray - how are you remotely controlling JRiver, with a media center type remote control?
I'm not Murray, but the logitech Harmony Elite + Flirc works perfectly for me.
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post #14790 of 15230 Old 08-06-2016, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, I am using the original Media Center remote from Microsoft + their IR receiver for MCE. I still run MCE Win 7 + Ceton 6 tuner + Echo / X360's all over the house. MCE is dead but it's still working great after 5+ years.
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