Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 496 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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Old 08-15-2016, 01:26 AM
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That's a pretty mighty sharpness for an LCD. And great convergence sample too.
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Old 08-15-2016, 03:57 AM
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Epson and Sony projector divisions should combine together to fend off JVC, because I don't want to end up seeing only one brand left that is competitive. JVC keeps inching farther and farther away.

All JVC has to do to kill them all off is drop the RS-400 down to $2500 (I know won't happen, but...), add a lower lag gaming mode, and add some image processing that can smooth the image more to remove more noise and look more like Sony but with JVC sharpness...

If they added that, bye bye Sony and Epson projectors...
Epson hasn't even released their LCoS version to consumers yet, right? Maybe that will be real competition for JVC.
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Old 08-15-2016, 04:10 AM
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Epson hasn't even released their LCoS version to consumers yet, right? Maybe that will be real competition for JVC.
Yes they have in their laser models...

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Old 08-15-2016, 04:41 AM
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We'll have to wait and see, i'm sure Cine4home will do his full tear down as soon as he gets it. Maybe it would make sense since the 5030 panels are so outdated, it probably would have been a monumental task to get them up to 2016 specs.

I'd like to see more tests with the LS10K / Sony VW665 and the JVC's for UHD. These frames were compared between the JVC / VW665 and the LS10K.

JVC UHD / Epson UHD

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/177013

JVC UHD / Sony UHD (this one is surprising - where is the 15K MSRP value here?)

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/175443

Sony UHD / Epson UHD

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/175335

imo I think the JVC renders it the best of the 3 but that's just my preference. UHD on the JVC RS600 looks remarkable, they did quite a good job as the first one out with the full HDMI chipset.
Sorry to quote again this post but since you have seen RS400/X5000 and RS600/X9000 at the same time, I would like to know is there difference between e-shift quality/sharpness between the two?

To my eyes that JVC sure looks the sharpest and no, I'm not JVC biased... never owned one.
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Old 08-15-2016, 05:16 AM
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Originally Posted by anidabi View Post
Sorry to quote again this post but since you have seen RS400/X5000 and RS600/X9000 at the same time, I would like to know is there difference between e-shift quality/sharpness between the two?

To my eyes that JVC sure looks the sharpest and no, I'm not JVC biased... never owned one.
I wonder though if that comparison is with the current generation of Sony units. I have heard from a few people they are sharper with the newer units and better lens QC.
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Old 08-15-2016, 06:18 AM - Thread Starter
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it was a VW520 / VW665 in those comparisons.

@anidabi - the main difference between the several RS400's and RS600's I've had here was the native contrast. There's always some sample quality differences between any copies of the same projector (Sony/JVC/Epson,etc). My current RS600 is one of the best samples I've seen in a while from my JVC's in the past. No convergence adjustments necessary and focus is excellent from edge to edge on my 142" 16:9.
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Old 08-15-2016, 10:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Elix View Post
That's a pretty mighty sharpness for an LCD. And great convergence sample too.
The problem I had with the wide pixel spacing on the 5030 was that I could just make it out from seating distance. I could also see it as a 'shimmer' in 3D content. The JVC / Planar image always looked more solid since they both have much better pixel fill. I'd like to see how it looks with e-shift turned on.

it's good they have a new lens on the 5040, the 5030 lens was nothing special and the RS400 has an excellent lens for it's price point.

also when the 5040 is released, I'd like to see more details about the color uniformity options. Since the LCD's are inherently not uniform, i'm curious to see how well the software correction does. I've seen a number of 5010/5020/5030's where the greyscale at the center would have measurements that were quite a bit off near the edges or corners on the screen. Panasonic 8000 was terrible with this on the 3 samples I had here and no way to correct it.

No FI in UHD mode is a bit of a letdown as well, especially for those that like the Epson version of the FI.
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Old 08-15-2016, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
it was a VW520 / VW665 in those comparisons.

@anidabi - the main difference between the several RS400's and RS600's I've had here was the native contrast. There's always some sample quality differences between any copies of the same projector (Sony/JVC/Epson,etc). My current RS600 is one of the best samples I've seen in a while from my JVC's in the past. No convergence adjustments necessary and focus is excellent from edge to edge on my 142" 16:9.
Thanks Zombie. So you are saying that the sharpness of the picture is essentially the same between those models if you don't win from the unit lottery and get unit with the worst possible lens?

Damn, I really hope sony could at least give some good competition to jvc so jvc has to lower the price on x5000. I feel like the new epson while givin really good value for money is not enough to shake jvc to do so.
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Old 08-15-2016, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by anidabi View Post
Thanks Zombie. So you are saying that the sharpness of the picture is essentially the same between those models if you don't win from the unit lottery and get unit with the worst possible lens?

Damn, I really hope sony could at least give some good competition to jvc so jvc has to lower the price on x5000. I feel like the new epson while givin really good value for money is not enough to shake jvc to do so.
The new Epson is priced a few hundred dollars less street price versus the RS400. So that may be enough to sway people to buy it. If it were me, I think that the RS400's much higher native/dynamic contrast and far higher pixel fill is more than enough to get people to spend a few hundred dollars more. You could also make the argument that the 5040 supports P3 color, but I personally think it's a moot point to bring up because of how many lumens it costs to get there. The only time you'd be using that mode would be with UHD BD's with HDR. HDR is all about brightness and with less than 1000 lumens in the 5040's P3 mode, that's really going to hurt how those peak white highlights look on the 5040; aka not good at all. If you're a 3D fan, the JVC also offers unmatched performance at the moment. The RS400 is actually worth the extra money. Unfortunately most were hoping for RS400 performance in the 5040 and it definitely fell short in a few important areas.
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Old 08-15-2016, 12:46 PM
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Damn, I really hope sony could at least give some good competition to jvc so jvc has to lower the price on x5000. I feel like the new epson while givin really good value for money is not enough to shake jvc to do so.
Sony (US) the one with the crazy pricing strategy, asking basically double or triple what the rest of the world gets charged. The Sony closest in performance to the RS600 for example, is the VW1100, and it's almost three times the price. Same for the RS500 vs VW665, and the RS400 vs VW365. And their 1080p models really aren't in the same class with much poorer lenses and contrast than JVC, and with processing that can't be disabled.
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Old 08-15-2016, 12:55 PM
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It is people paying for the lower gaming lag primarily. Some just like the Sony brand because in the old days it sometimes meant high-end, but the Sony brand of today in electronics is not what it used to be in the 90's and early 2000's.

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Old 08-15-2016, 01:04 PM
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It is people paying for the lower gaming lag primarily. Some just like the Sony brand because in the old days it sometimes meant high-end, but the Sony brand of today in electronics is not what it used to be in the 90's and early 2000's.
It's funny you mention that. When people who don't know projectors ask which one I use and I say a JVC they look at me like I'm joking. They don't think JVC in general makes "high end" electronics so they think the projector I have is junk. Sony does have that high end appeal with its name and I'd imagine that's how they mostly still sell electronics. Other than their SXRD units and their camera sensors they don't have anything state of the art.
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Old 08-15-2016, 01:17 PM
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It's funny you mention that. When people who don't know projectors ask which one I use and I say a JVC they look at me like I'm joking. They don't think JVC in general makes "high end" electronics so they think the projector I have is junk. Sony does have that high end appeal with its name and I'd imagine that's how they mostly still sell electronics. Other than their SXRD units and their camera sensors they don't have anything state of the art.

I had a similar thing happen to me at Best Buy/Magnolia from a salesman. He asked what projector I owned and I told him the JVC and his response was with pause, "Well, they're really not that bad." I went to a 'high end' A/V store and they didn't even carry JVCs except upon special orders while the theater rooms (which were terrible in terms of helping display contrast) contained the Sony 300ES and 600ES along with a couple of Epsons including the LS10000. They were pushing 4K which is funny because none of those could actually fully resolve it as we know.
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Old 08-15-2016, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Zombie. So you are saying that the sharpness of the picture is essentially the same between those models if you don't win from the unit lottery and get unit with the worst possible lens?

Damn, I really hope sony could at least give some good competition to jvc so jvc has to lower the price on x5000. I feel like the new epson while givin really good value for money is not enough to shake jvc to do so.
JVC has done a very good job over the last few years with sample quality (convergence and focus).

I'm not sure what the pricing is like in your country. In the US, the MSRP for the HW65 isn't far off from the MSRP for the RS400. MSRP for the 6040 (using this since it's black and more attractive for a dedicated HT) will be the same price as the RS400 as well. I am expecting cedia 'pre-order' deals since the 2016 JVC's are carrying over 1 additional year. They know Epson is releasing a 3K US projector soon.

Epson 5040/6040 contrast is basically un-changed from the last 5 years of Epson LCD projectors. Same thing for the HW65, it's basically the same as the HW50 from years ago.
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Old 08-15-2016, 01:45 PM
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Sony (US) the one with the crazy pricing strategy, asking basically double or triple what the rest of the world gets charged. The Sony closest in performance to the RS600 for example, is the VW1100, and it's almost three times the price. Same for the RS500 vs VW665, and the RS400 vs VW365. And their 1080p models really aren't in the same class with much poorer lenses and contrast than JVC, and with processing that can't be disabled.
Well if JVC had had the quality of the RS600 back in 2011 when the 1000es was released may be it too(rs600) would have been double the price.

Similarly if the 1000es retailed now as a newly released machine it would be nowhere near as expensive.
Theoretically.

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Old 08-15-2016, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Epson and Sony projector divisions should combine together to fend off JVC, because I don't want to end up seeing only one brand left that is competitive. JVC keeps inching farther and farther away.

All JVC has to do to kill them all off is drop the RS-400 down to $2500 (I know won't happen, but...), add a lower lag gaming mode, and add some image processing that can smooth the image more to remove more noise and look more like Sony but with JVC sharpness...

If they added that, bye bye Sony and Epson projectors...
If a frog had wings it wouldn't hit it's butt when it jumped but it doesn't or as my dad would say... "Wish in one hand and Sh!t in the other and see which one gets full the fastest"...

Seriously though, there IS a reason they can't accomplish this and that is likely due to costs and profit requirements to stay in business.

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Old 08-15-2016, 02:25 PM
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Businesses will generally charge whatever the market will allow, rather than basing it on what something costs. Sometimes that means taking a loss...

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Old 08-15-2016, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
JVC has done a very good job over the last few years with sample quality (convergence and focus).

I'm not sure what the pricing is like in your country. In the US, the MSRP for the HW65 isn't far off from the MSRP for the RS400. MSRP for the 6040 (using this since it's black and more attractive for a dedicated HT) will be the same price as the RS400 as well. I am expecting cedia 'pre-order' deals since the 2016 JVC's are carrying over 1 additional year. They know Epson is releasing a 3K US projector soon.

Epson 5040/6040 contrast is basically un-changed from the last 5 years of Epson LCD projectors. Same thing for the HW65, it's basically the same as the HW50 from years ago.
I use this site http://geizhals.eu/ to check euro prices since everything in my country is many more hundreds more expensive. Vpl-hw65es is 2600-2700€, dla-x5000 is 4100-4200€ so there is pretty steep gap in my opinion. 3000€ is already a big money in this continent and for most of us you should get some pretty good projector with that money. I'm just baffled why did jvc left the 3000€ customers bite the dust by not introducing more affordable entry level projector like they did in the past? As if they intentionally left the lowest tier customers to bite the dust for more profits. After all, there used to be more affordable entry tier projectors from jvc like x30, x35, etc.

I have almost 4 years old vpl-hw50es and it has suffered from the panel degradation like so many others and now I have this daily urge to upgrade and while the new epson can double the native contrast than my projector could ever produce and brings some really nice features on top of that, I feel it is not enough big upgrade, but the x5000 would be. That's why I desperately hope that jvc would lower the year old model to around 3000€ since they are not releasing anything new except the 25k$ laser projector.

We all know sony has stagnated with their LcoS chips which also baffles me how come those are performing like crappy LCD tech and I'm pretty sure there is nothing properly evolutionally coming out of sony.
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Old 08-15-2016, 03:00 PM
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I don't know what the pricing in Europe has been like, but the lowest price I can recall of a JVC was around $2700. The RS400 was more expensive, but it might be a little cheaper this year if it is carried over unchanged. Based on the last time though, my guess is they will sweeten the pot with some extras at the same price.

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Old 08-15-2016, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by TheSony4KRises View Post
Similarly if the 1000es retailed now as a newly released machine it would be nowhere near as expensive.
Theoretically.
Uh, sure, that's why Sony upped the price of the (fundamentally unchanged) VW1100 from the VW1000.
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Old 08-15-2016, 03:36 PM
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Businesses will generally charge whatever the market will allow, rather than basing it on what something costs. Sometimes that means taking a loss...
Business will also dictate the amount of profit one can generate (e.g. what the market will bear). Selling at a loss is not a viable long-term marketing strategy. You can't make up for lost profits by simply "selling more of them". There are "loss leaders" but that approach is based off the premise that you are able to sell the target audience something else at a great enough profit level to allow you to reduce the sales price below costs (like giving away software to sell a laptop).

But this isn't an economics 101 class so will return this thread back to it's original purpose as there is no point in speculating what any manufacture can sell their products for. They aren't making their decisions based on an arcane thread on a obscure (to most) HT forum.

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Old 08-15-2016, 04:32 PM
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I don't know what the pricing in Europe has been like, but the lowest price I can recall of a JVC was around $2700. The RS400 was more expensive, but it might be a little cheaper this year if it is carried over unchanged. Based on the last time though, my guess is they will sweeten the pot with some extras at the same price.
Euro prices for x30(RS46 if I'm correct?) used to be in general 2400€ and x35 2200€. So this time around jvc just decided to cut out the 4th entry level projector all together and your only option is almost double that, although great product but still pretty weird thing to do.
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Old 08-15-2016, 07:50 PM
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Hey Guys,

Just got my UHD copies of LUCY, OBLIVION and LONE SURVIVOR.

I don't want or give two craps about the digital copy certificates... if anybody wants em, let me know, reply here with the film you want!

First come first served... Only one code per person, so reply to this comment with the film you want and I will give you the redemption code.

I threw out the other 10 codes I had for my other Amazon purchases, but realised today there must be some peeps who would appreciate them, so I will be giving them out from now on. I seriously don't want them.

*** Edit ***

OBLIVION - Gone.
LONE SURVIVOR - Gone.
LUCY - Available.

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Old 08-15-2016, 08:49 PM
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Well I repaired my 2.4 HP screen's dings, it went fairly well. Both dings were on the sides just about 3 inches away from the edges. I will post pics once my camera charges, later tonight or tomorrow.

I bought black velvet tape from Ebay for $18 (25 foot roll), tape worked great, excellent stuff. So I took my 106" screen and basically turned it into a 100" screen to get rid of the scuffs by taping the sides to make a larger border. Technically I think I reduced it to 103", but once I finish taping the other side to match it will become a 100". Not happy about losing 6" diagonal, but sure as heck beats seeing the scuff marks on snowy backgrounds (or any background)...

A few minor issues, it was very difficult lining up the tape perfectly, but I got it fairly straight going down the sides. You can tell a slight bow inward, but very very slight. Still looks way better than when it had a scuff mark.

I just hope the felt material does not get too dirty. I will never be able to roll the screen up again (I don't think, didn't try), but hey it worked.

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Old 08-15-2016, 09:08 PM
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Well I repaired my 2.4 HP screen's dings, it went fairly well. Both dings were on the sides just about 3 inches away from the edges. I will post pics once my camera charges, later tonight or tomorrow.

I bought black velvet tape from Ebay for $18 (25 foot roll), tape worked great, excellent stuff. So I took my 106" screen and basically turned it into a 100" screen to get rid of the scuffs by taping the sides to make a larger border. Technically I think I reduced it to 103", but once I finish taping the other side to match it will become a 100". Not happy about losing 6" diagonal, but sure as heck beats seeing the scuff marks on snowy backgrounds (or any background)...

A few minor issues, it was very difficult lining up the tape perfectly, but I got it fairly straight going down the sides. You can tell a slight bow inward, but very very slight. Still looks way better than when it had a scuff mark.

I just hope the felt material does not get too dirty. I will never be able to roll the screen up again (I don't think, didn't try), but hey it worked.
The nice thing is that these newer projectors are brighter than ever. Unless I have an older projector here I rarely find the need to pull out the HP screen for viewing. It's definitely one of the only higher-than-1.0 gain screens that I'd recommend someone to buy, however. In most cases, if you need the gain, the negative traits of this material greatly dwarf the positive ones.
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Old 08-15-2016, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Elix View Post
That's a pretty mighty sharpness for an LCD. And great convergence sample too.
Convergence seems pretty good. Though, and it's been said a lot in the past, a lower pixel fill can make it seem sharper than it actually is. Because we can make out a pixel grid that much easier it can give the appearance of higher sharpness.
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Old 08-15-2016, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
The nice thing is that these newer projectors are brighter than ever. Unless I have an older projector here I rarely find the need to pull out the HP screen for viewing. It's definitely one of the only higher-than-1.0 gain screens that I'd recommend someone to buy, however. In most cases, if you need the gain, the negative traits of this material greatly dwarf the positive ones.
True, I'll upgrade eventually, but waiting to see how a few things pan out in the PJ World.

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Old 08-16-2016, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
You could also make the argument that the 5040 supports P3 color, but I personally think it's a moot point to bring up because of how many lumens it costs to get there. The only time you'd be using that mode would be with UHD BD's with HDR. HDR is all about brightness and with less than 1000 lumens in the 5040's P3 mode, that's really going to hurt how those peak white highlights look on the 5040; aka not good at all.
Cine4Home points out that you can almost get full P3 color in brighter modes like Natural:

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Brightness and Contrast: HDR mode / course mode

As explained in the chapter Operation, can be in the extended signal menu of color space between BT709 (SDR) and BT2020 (UHD Premium) choose. This feature is not only in Cinema Digital mode is available, but also in the "bright" modes, such as "natural", although the TW9300 / 7300 does not have (W) without the switched color filters over the DCI color space. "Bug or intentional?" We asked ourselves and the mode tentatively selected. At first glance, all the colors appeared more powerful, so it was worth it to detect the differences measurement.



Native color space without the DCI filter


The measurement diagram finally proved that the engineers also built without the switched color filters resources for a slightly extended color space in red and green, and have adapted it a BT2020 color conversion matrix.

A detailed color space analysis is at this point from (we are to launch late filing), but our vision test with real movies let us wondering: actually succeeded the TW9300 (7300) in this mode, most of the colors just as appealing to map how the Cinema Digital mode , real deficits were barely visible. Only in really bright colors, the green was a bit too yellowish and the red is not quite as bright.


Really impressive was finally the "HDR-Punch", because in bright highlights of the projector could play "mercilessly" its brightness up to 2000 lumens. If Martians in literally walked the "sun" and could have to produce a blinding glare (as it should be in the sun too). The reduced color space compensates the TW9300 also partially through these "Light Power" because lighter colors seem subjectively intense. Without a filter, the black level is slightly lighter, but what is not too distracting fell at a frame width of 2.8 m significant (with the JVC reference in Black the TW9300 can not of course keep up).
Hopefully we get some measurements before too long to see how well this HDR workaround really works.
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Old 08-16-2016, 03:05 AM
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Yeah, it doesn't look a lot (the white triangle outside of REC709), but they say it tracks quite well for P3 when using the native colour space without the DCI filter. I think the French review measured the percentage of P3 in the 7300 (4040) review at almost 73%, which is less than the JVC RS400s 87%, but at least you have the flexibility of using the DCI filter or not.

http://www.projection-homecinema.fr/...son-eh-tw7300/

They also show images that have a noticeable magenta push near the bottom of the review. I saw that too in the demo I had but can't remember the exact circumstances now, and I cant make out if the review is saying that's how the UHD HDR versions look compared to 1080 converted to UHD HDR, but skin tones definitely look wrong. I guess that could be calibrated though. This pj could be a tweakers delight.

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Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

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Old 08-16-2016, 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Hey Guys,

Just got my UHD copies of LUCY, OBLIVION and LONE SURVIVOR.

I don't want or give two craps about the digital copy certificates... if anybody wants em, let me know, reply here with the film you want!

First come first served... Only one code per person, so reply to this comment with the film you want and I will give you the redemption code.

I threw out the other 10 codes I had for my other Amazon purchases, but realised today there must be some peeps who would appreciate them, so I will be giving them out from now on. I seriously don't want them.

*** Edit ***

OBLIVION - Gone.
LONE SURVIVOR - Available.
LUCY - Available.
I'd like to watch Lone Survivor if available.
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