Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 499 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #14941 of 14991 Old 08-17-2016, 07:56 AM
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@coderguy - you've been gone a while, there is now an entire sub-forum for discussing HDR topics, theory, etc.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...lor-gamut-wcg/[/quote]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Color of case and the ability to do vertical stretch. As for the manual iris on the 5040, I am getting clarification on the feature.
The 5040 has the same iris functions as the 6040, per Epson.
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post #14942 of 14991 Old 08-17-2016, 07:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
The 5040 has the same iris functions as the 6040, per Epson.
Thanks Mike. let's clean up the posts so it doesn't cause any confusion.

that is definitely good news!
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post #14943 of 14991 Old 08-17-2016, 08:01 AM - Thread Starter
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post #14944 of 14991 Old 08-17-2016, 08:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alebonau View Post
as a previous gen epson owner from a few years back. if they are putting in an auto iris it would want be better than the coffee grinder they had in the 9000 series ! also as far as convergence goes I would have to say my jvc x35(rs46) that replaced the epson was not greatly better in this regard than the epson. perhaps epson has improved some way, but I for one dont have huge hopes...my x35 was leaps and bounds ahead of the epson in so many ways....only part lagging was 3D. but jvc seems to have come leaps and bounds there too.

only thing I think epson like win now will be in price ! I cant imagine them being that much better other ways unless have too made some leaps and bounds ! possible I guess and wow if they have ! well done... but I dont have hopes
they definitely put some effort here to improve on the 5030 and selling it an impulsive price point here in the US.

several areas I'd like to know more about, auto iris functionality (go right to the interrogation scene in Oblivion) and 3D performance. I will send the L/R patterns to the first 5040 owner that can play them back and provide feedback on the results. The new owner did comment on the noise in high lamp so we need to get some more info there.


They posted the lamp # on their site but no MSRP listed yet.

http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/j...sku=V13H010L89


I wonder what Sony is going to do with the HW65 over the next year. behind in lumens and no WCG / HDR support, etc. still 4K MSRP on last price check.
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post #14945 of 14991 Old 08-17-2016, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
yeah, I run my 4910 at, I think, -4 in Eco, and that still gives me about 16fL. I suppose the only question is if the iris can actually tame what, 1200+ Lumens (Eco) down to 16fL

And yeah, I'm curious to see 3D. Its one of those things that I always want to like, but I always leave indifferent or disappointed. The 4910 was actually a big disappointment in that area, between the crosstalk and the dim picture. But apparently the RS600 won't have either of those problems. Maybe I'll be a 3D convert. I'm just wondering if I'll end up with 3 copies of SW:VII inside of 2 years.

And of course now I just need to move my 4910 (and some other stuff I've not been using since upgrading to "4K") to pay for it.
Do you have a 3D kit already for the 4910 that you can use on the RS600? There is an excellent frame packed 3D trailer of SW out there, let me know when you get the projector and I'll send it to you. It looks so good that I turned off the 2D BD copy 10 mins into the movie. This movie has to be seen in 3D, they did a great job with it.

I can wait till mid-November for the 3D BD. Then Rogue One a month later.

This is the company that has been doing a number of recent conversions, I think they are doing an excellent job. The 3D in Ant-man was very impressive.

http://www.stereodllc.com/

we're a good 7+ years into the slow death of 3D.. yet they still keep the releases coming, scheduled well through 2020 now.

I'll take a good 3D BD any day over the 2D UHD version. BvS was a good example of this recently.
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post #14946 of 14991 Old 08-17-2016, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
You said HDR is like a Darbee, but they have nothing in common.
Darbee is a detail/sharpness enhancing filter that can optionally be applied to any arbitrary source.
HDR is an EOTF (SMPTE ST.2084), it is a way of luminance values, it has nothing to do with detail/sharpness enhancement (any more then BT.1886) to an arbitrary source.

Darbee can be turned on/off at will.
HDR is something that a source either was mastered in, or isn't.
Luminance values are also the primary technique the Darbee uses to "sharpen" the edges by increasing the dynamic range using a tone-mapping technique around borders, and thus is the only reason I made the comparison. Even though one is for sharpening objects and the other is to ALLOW a higher dynamic range natively without tone mapping, the example of the Darbee was a perfect use situation to explain it. The end-result may not be as drastic with an extended range (since tone mapping compensates in a lesser dynamic range), but the point is it will likely help some in certain situations, and it does get rid of some tone mapping type problems that can happen.

When you say HDR, you cannot really be talking about ONLY calibration or extended color spaces, few do that other than on this forum. We are talking about the entire extended range and what it will be used for, and what the effects will be.

I am the one that initially said that the HDR standards for TV"s were probably created for the extended ranges for the very purpose of not having to use tone-mapping conversions. I said it first, then you repeated me. I am aware of the differences between HDR for video and in gaming and cameras, but the REASON is still the same, it is not totally different. You think that because you've seen a bunch of video guys online say that "it's special and different now" because it was included as an enhanced range directly in the UHD spec, so we changed the meaning of it. Yet, actually HDR was always about extended ranges (even if using tone mapping in a narrower range during an enhancement technique, we're still accomplishing the same purpose by simulating the enhanced range, hence when using tone mapping we were wishing we had the extended range by default), so even on the PC the problems and purposes are the same.

Extended ranges and expanded pallets are just that, nothing more, it doesn't matter if it is a different format that became a standard, or if different than the way gaming engines or cameras use it (rendered content vs. cameras are also different, so grouping these together would be MORE of a fallacy than comparing a PC to video). It's obvious that people label some camera abilities as HDR stuff when they should really be called filters.

In some design apps on a PC (like a gaming engine), when you first enable HDR, all it does is change the levels and the encoding format giving you a BLANK slate, at other times with auto-filtering enabled it uses tone mapping to try to enhance contrast on-the-fly in which you have to adjust a billion settings, and sometimes it uses native HDR stuff embedded from drivers and what not (known as REAL HDR @ Nvidia). In other apps, you can create new projects using the same HDR standards as is in UHD video specs (even if your monitor cannot show it natively). How is that different if it can do the same thing. It's like arguing that the CAR is not the ROAD? Well yah we all know the car is not the same as the road, but the reasons for the cars driving on the road do not change. They edit and remaster the HDR videos on the PC, oh yah but it's totally different in video than it is on a PC, even though it came from a PC (hmm, I see)...

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post #14947 of 14991 Old 08-17-2016, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Do you have a 3D kit already for the 4910 that you can use on the RS600? There is an excellent frame packed 3D trailer of SW out there, let me know when you get the projector and I'll send it to you. It looks so good that I turned off the 2D BD copy 10 mins into the movie. This movie has to be seen in 3D, they did a great job with it.
Yeah, I got that Mitsubishi kit that was on Amazon for cheap a while back when I got my 4910. I understand it will work just fine with the 600.

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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
When you say HDR, you cannot really be talking about ONLY calibration, few do that other than on this forum. We are talking about the entire extended range, both the standard and what it will be used for, how better cameras and sources might translate to this new medium, and what not. Otherwise, we mise well just go back to the VHS days and SD.
I'm not talking about calibration, HDR on UHD Blu-ray is a new EOTF (Electro-Optic Transfer Function), it's an entirely different way of encoding video on the medium. It has nothing to do with enhancing local level details or contrast.
https://www.smpte.org/sites/default/...-2-handout.pdf
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post #14948 of 14991 Old 08-17-2016, 02:06 PM
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It's the same concept, it's still talking about dynamic range. When I said calibration (bad choice of words), I just meant within the extended "calibration" range (not physically calibrating the image)...

Your argument is basically that we have better capabilities (because of the encoding) to show more contrasty luminance that vary per each display's own capabilities, but at the same time this format is unrelated to improving contrast and dynamic range. Yet, it seems the Dolby Vision thing and other enhancement formats overlayed on HDR do exactly this. Basically the same concept.

Edit:
The very document you posted, disputes your own argument...

Why is a new EOTF needed?
• Ideally, the EOTF should be defined by the human visual response
• Current Gamma worked well enough for the CRT era
– It is a sort of perceptual EOTF
– But only at relatively low luminance levels and small dynamic ranges

• Some suggest stretching or tweaking gamma would allow us to
squeeze a little bit more brightness and dynamic range out of our
current system


• We believe next generation systems will be much brighter and have
much higher dynamic range because that is what viewers will demand!


...

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post #14949 of 14991 Old 08-17-2016, 07:45 PM
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I like the look of that PJ.

It's always in the last place you look.
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post #14950 of 14991 Old 08-17-2016, 11:26 PM - Thread Starter
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it's a nice looking update to the 5030 series.

here is a tribute to the other WAF / Living room friendly projectors. My favorite is the Pearl White Mitsubishi HC9000.
















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post #14951 of 14991 Old 08-18-2016, 04:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
It's the same concept, it's still talking about dynamic range.
I just don't see how, a Darbee doesn't change the dynamic range of the system. It just modifies local contrast a bit to make things look sharper.

Quote:
Your argument is basically that we have better capabilities (because of the encoding) to show more contrasty luminance that vary per each display's own capabilities, but at the same time this format is unrelated to improving contrast and dynamic range. Yet, it seems the Dolby Vision thing and other enhancement formats overlayed on HDR do exactly this. Basically the same concept.
My argument is that HDR is a palate, a canvas that the content creator can use how they see fit, just like WCG. Darbee is completely different, comparing Darbee to HDR and calling them equivalent is like saying WCG is the same concept as cranking up the saturation to make colors pop more.

Quote:
Edit:
Quote:
The very document you posted, disputes your own argument...

Why is a new EOTF needed?
• Ideally, the EOTF should be defined by the human visual response
• Current Gamma worked well enough for the CRT era
– It is a sort of perceptual EOTF
– But only at relatively low luminance levels and small dynamic ranges

• Some suggest stretching or tweaking gamma would allow us to
squeeze a little bit more brightness and dynamic range out of our
current system


• We believe next generation systems will be much brighter and have
much higher dynamic range because that is what viewers will demand!


...
But Darbee doesn't affect the dynamic range. It doesn't affect overall contrast either. It's like the Contrast, or better yet the Tone Curves vs Clarity controls in Lightroom, they do entirely different things.

But most importantly, HDR for video isn't a processing feature that you can apply to an image. You can't take a Blu-ray, for example, and "turn on" HDR processing, a video has to be mastered/encoded in HDR (SMPTE ST.2084) to begin with, and then your display chain has to understand that encoding. HDR isn't added to a UHD Blu-ray by the player (or display, or video processor), the video on the UHD BD is HDR to start, it is stored fundamentally differently (different EOTF) than SDR Blu-ray.
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Don't some TVs already create "fake" HDR from SDR?

I think it will end up like CFI...some will like the added dynamic range to SDR content and others will hate it.

Of course a native HDR source would be preferable, and we may start adding even more range to that via processing some day as tech improves.
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post #14953 of 14991 Old 08-18-2016, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheronB View Post
Don't some TVs already create "fake" HDR from SDR?

I think it will end up like CFI...some will like the added dynamic range to SDR content and others will hate it.

Of course a native HDR source would be preferable, and we may start adding even more range to that via processing some day as tech improves.
I think most everyone will like HDR, when done correctly. It will be closer to real life.

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post #14954 of 14991 Old 08-18-2016, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
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our fellow member max with the first 5040 was kind enough to share the screen menus

according to the 9300 manual, the adjustment should be in the menu item shown below. He is going to dig a little deeper tonight





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post #14955 of 14991 Old 08-18-2016, 09:15 AM
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I think most everyone will like HDR, when done correctly. It will be closer to real life.
Even if it's from an SDR source and artificially expanded by an external processor?

There will always be those that decry that for moving away from the artist's intent no matter how good it looked.

Of course anything on film could be remastered in HDR, but some digital content is forever stuck in SDR unless artificially expanded.
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post #14956 of 14991 Old 08-18-2016, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheronB View Post
Even if it's from an SDR source and artificially expanded by an external processor?

There will always be those that decry that for moving away from the artist's intent no matter how good it looked.

Of course anything on film could be remastered in HDR, but some digital content is forever stuck in SDR unless artificially expanded.
Done right would be a 4K source, DCI P3 color space, 10 bits and HDR. Hopefully in a couple years, 4K source, actual BT2020 and 12 bits. With the HDR done to add realism, not trying to make an artistic statement.
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post #14957 of 14991 Old 08-18-2016, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
our fellow member max with the first 5040 was kind enough to share the screen menus

according to the 9300 manual, the adjustment should be in the menu item shown below. He is going to dig a little deeper tonight
Which thread photos come from? I didn't see them in either of the 5040 threads that I'm following, including one in which Max posted previously about getting the 5040.
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post #14958 of 14991 Old 08-18-2016, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
I just don't see how, a Darbee doesn't change the dynamic range of the system. It just modifies local contrast a bit to make things look sharper.

My argument is that HDR is a palate, a canvas that the content creator can use how they see fit, just like WCG. Darbee is completely different, comparing Darbee to HDR and calling them equivalent is like saying WCG is the same concept as cranking up the saturation to make colors pop more.

[B]

But Darbee doesn't affect the dynamic range. It doesn't affect overall contrast either.
I never called them equivalent, I was using a metaphorical example... When people say "kind of like", it is a metaphor.

Actually the Darbee can affect multiple types of contrast, if the lowest luminance level of a pixel color in the scene is not at the base luminance and the highest not at the peak already, then it probably can change the contrast range of the image itself, even though obviously it cannot change the display's contrast (nothing can do that - unless you consider the enhanced encoding ability of a higher peak luminance the display itself). Besides, now you are trying to nitpick between the definition of dynamic range in the image, and the difference between local intrascene contrast, but know who cares, the intrascene contrast is what really matters when we are talking about algorithms that modify contrast (other than in the few cases where you're amp'n peak luminance like in some of the newer HDR-overlayed enhancement stuff) .

If you mention the word "HDR" in video to another person, you generally assume that you are trying to gain a higher fidelity of contrast when working with the formats. Yet apparently some now want to just immediately reference the specification by itself and argue that it doesn't affect contrast, and I'm sure it's common in these forums. If I wanted to talk about the HDR spec or within the range of HDR itself, I would have mentioned the word "spec" and not used the word "HDR" by itself. Otherwise, according to you, the general industry terminology is that whenever someone now mentions the word HDR by itself, it immediately references the spec ALONE, and that's just not true. When actually, when someone says that they are generally referring to the overall tech of HDR (including enhancing algorithms). I don't mean this in a demeaning way, and I'm sure you are not like that in person, but that's what I call a propeller head... I've worn the hat before, but I NOW have to watch my blood pressure in here... So take off your propeller hats people...

There are large similarities of using contrast modifying algorithms by using tone mapping or using a greater peak luminance of a color, and in many cases they can actually be interchangeable, because the algorithms that do so ---- do not actually ONLY modify peak luminance, hence depending on how severely the higher luminance levels are used in the HDR-enabled algorithm.

I said it was an example to use that had similarities because it was both working on the bounds of modifying contrast. It was a quick way of understanding how HDR based algorithms can enhance the image. I should have used the word "algorithm" with HDR, but it was a quick type-up in a forum, but I forgot here in AVS you have to be precise or get hammered. The contrast / luminance detection algorithms are (in some cases) similar to the Darbee, they just change a larger area and some modify peak luminances that are able to go beyond old formats. I've written contrast border detection algorithms from scratch for image recognition apps, and I don't think I've ever seen anyone give a lecture about how a different format doesn't change contrast by itself (well no kidding there are a lot of variables when it comes to contrast, the camera equipment, how it was remastered, how the display device algorithmically modifies it according to its own peak luminance, and on and on...). So why even bring it up, the only purpose I see is to try to make someone look stupid, but I think we can all do that fine by ourselves without any added help ...

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post #14959 of 14991 Old 08-18-2016, 11:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Which thread photos come from? I didn't see them in either of the 5040 threads that I'm following, including one in which Max posted previously about getting the 5040.
Max and I are going back and forth in a pm.

I have to find someone who can run the 3D L/R patterns, I'd like to see how it handles crosstalk. We already know what the LS10K looks like with this test.
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post #14960 of 14991 Old 08-18-2016, 12:15 PM - Thread Starter
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3D BD Stars Wars

3D fans, might as well just buy this now and get a surprise in a few months after you forgot you ordered it.

https://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-For...dp/B01JURU6WU/

The 3D trailer is amazing. I love this whole 3D is dead thing... keep 'em coming...! PAC RIM 2 in early 2018.
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post #14961 of 14991 Old 08-18-2016, 12:43 PM
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I'll check out the thing, but no 3D at the moment.

OK moving on to a different topic after I say one last thing. Tone mapping and other contrast modifying techniques can actually simulate higher peak luminance values, that's partly the purpose, it's only when we hit peak luminances that we hit issues. I suggest that someone go read the Wiki on tone mapping, then they can understand how the purpose is the same, even though one is more limited than the native method of actually amp'n the peak luminance.

The truth is, the ability to amp the peak luminance is hardly the main requirement needed for increasing contrast in the real world, it's just the marketing one because it's the newest feature that the new encoding allows on capable displays. Hence, it allows them to sell the contrast enhancing algorithms as something different and special that could never be done before. Yet, in actuality, if you ever hard-coded a contrast algorithm (and I have), then you'll see that raising the peak luminance so high is just not as commonly needed as people think. So in reality, all it has done is opened the door up for a greater push to write more contrast modifying algorithms to further enhance the greater HDR ranges, so it's still a benefit, but not for the sole purpose people think.

The argument goes back to making video exactly match our Visual Eye Response to things like outdoors, but the argument is partially a subverted argument, because who wants to squint their eyes while they are watching their display. Also, unless you mute the range or convert older ranges, but if you just use a production grade camera to create something, then theoretically I'm pretty sure it's going to come out with slightly higher contrast, that is it will increase the dynamic contrast between different frames on these newer displays (even with no remastering mods due to the newer peak luminance capabilities in the newer encoding format). So in general some of what he said was true, but not all of it. Some types of contrast will not be changed just by HDR, but dynamic contrast between frames should change a bit automatically, unless the mastering or the calibration counteracts it.

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post #14962 of 14991 Old 08-18-2016, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
3D fans, might as well just buy this now and get a surprise in a few months after you forgot you ordered it.

https://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-For...dp/B01JURU6WU/

The 3D trailer is amazing. I love this whole 3D is dead thing... keep 'em coming...! PAC RIM 2 in early 2018.
Just watched Pacific Rim in 3D on the 400, it was much better than all the other times that I watched it. Can't wait for Star Wars in 3D
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post #14963 of 14991 Old 08-18-2016, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
If you mention the word "HDR" in video to another person, you generally assume that you are trying to gain a higher fidelity of contrast when working with the formats. Yet apparently some now want to just immediately reference the specification by itself and argue that it doesn't affect contrast, and I'm sure it's common in these forums. If I wanted to talk about the HDR spec or within the range of HDR itself, I would have mentioned the word "spec" and not used the word "HDR" by itself. Otherwise, according to you, the general industry terminology is that whenever someone now mentions the word HDR by itself, it immediately references the spec ALONE, and that's just not true. When actually, when someone says that they are generally referring to the overall tech of HDR (including enhancing algorithms). I don't mean this in a demeaning way, and I'm sure you are not like that in person, but that's what I call a propeller head... I've worn the hat before, but I NOW have to watch my blood pressure in here... So take off your propeller hats people...
Frankly I think this is a problem the industry created for itself, there are just way too many thing that are called "HDR" that if you just say "HDR" nobody has a clue what you're talking about, it could mean:

  1. Capturing a wide dynamic range, either through multiple exposures, or advanced sensors - of course how wide is "High"
  2. Tone Mapping higher dynamic range images down to look good on lower dynamic range media
  3. A new video standard that came along with UHD
  4. Rendering 3D content (games) at a wider dynamic range than they used to
  5. etc
2 is probably the most common understanding, when I type "HDR" into google, the second hit is a wikipedia article that goes right into tone mapping. But it isn't directly applicable to the meaning of the HDR logos on UHD Blu-rays (especially) or other UHD devices.

But here's where I'm coming from. We're in the projector forum, what does it mean for a projector to support "HDR"? Well, it means it understands content encoded with the SMPTE ST.2084 EOTF. Done.... When I look at at movie an it says "HDR" on it, it means that movie was mastered to the SMPTE ST.2084 EOTF. Done. HDR on the label of the UHD Blu-ray doesn't say anything about whether there were or were not "contrast modifying algorithms" (Darbee like) in the creation of that content. Likewise HDR support on a projector doesn't say anything about if it employs "contrast modifying algorithms" (Darbee like), in fact best I can tell most "HDR" projectors just use a slightly different gamma curve to compress the highlights.

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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
OK moving on to a different topic after I say one last thing. Tone mapping and other contrast modifying techniques can actually simulate higher peak luminance values, that's partly the purpose. I suggest that someone go read the Wiki on tone mapping, then they can understand how the purpose is the same, even though one is more limited than the native method of actually amp'n the peak luminance.
Maybe this is where we are getting hung up, first I absolutely agree that "Tone Mapping" algorithms may (and probably do) employ filters similar to that of Darbee, at the very least they can provide similar results.

That said, my point is that Tone Mapping is not HDR.

Starting from the ideal state, if you had a HDR display capable of 10,000 nits, and an HDR source, there would be absolutely no Tone Mapping employed. In an ideal HDR system there just isn't any Darbee like processing going on, it's handled essentially the same way as SDR today, content is encoded with an EOTF, display uses that EOTF to know how to interpret it for display.

Even in photography, Tone Mapping is a distinct thing, and it's purpose is to compress a high dynamic range image (that is often in captured via multiple exposures) down to an "SDR" media (screen or print). Now if one day I get an HDR monitor, HDR display, and my PC processing software gets HDR support, I'll be able to process my HDR photos without Tone mapping.

Ironically with Ultra HD Blu-ray, you get Tone Mapping when you don't have HDR support in your chain, in a way they are opposites of each other. When you tell your UHD BD player (via EDID or setting) that your display doesn't support HDR, the disabling of HDR support is what enables the tone mapping down to SDR compatiblity.

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The truth is, the ability to amp the peak luminance is hardly the main requirement needed for increasing contrast in the real world, it's just the marketing one because it's the newest feature that the new encoding allows on capable displays. Hence, it allows them to sell the contrast enhancing algorithms as something different and special that could never be done before.
But HDR (ie UHD Blu-ray using the SMPTE ST.2084 EOTF) is not a "contrast enhancing algorithm". In fact, like I said above, when you go out and buy an HDR Premium display (or some future display that exceeds requirements of the source), the idea is that the display and source don't have to use tone mapping algorithms to display the image. Tone mapping is an interim solution to bridge the gap between what the source calls for and what the display can achieve.




Part of the reason I replied is because just as I read the threads here it seems lots of folks think you can just turn HDR on and off. They think you can turn HDR off on your UHD Blu-ray player like any other processing feature (Upconversion, Superresolution, MPC, etc), when in fact it's the opposite. With HDR enabled, the player will just output what's on the disc (which is encoded as "HDR"), it's when you turn HDR off that the player engages processing algorithms.

It's really hard to tell who's just being using lazy vernacular and who actually doesn't understand. I think both you and I have the same working understanding (at least at a high level) of how HDR works, but I just don't know who else does, and I don't really like perpetuating the misunderstanding that HDR is something that can just be "turned off". If I had to use an analogy, I think some people think "HDR" is like DTS-HD Master Audio, that there's some "core" (like lossy DTS Core) where if you don't enable HDR, you get the core, and when you enable HDR, it gets applied to that core. When in fact HDR (as exists on UHD Blu-ray) is more like Dolby TrueHD, where there's only the HDR data, and if your equipment doesn't support HDR, it has to be processed down to SDR, just like how TrueHD has to be decoded and converted to DD for output over Optical.
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post #14964 of 14991 Old 08-18-2016, 02:53 PM
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Edit:

"That said, my point is that Tone Mapping is not HDR. "

You were arguing points that were never in dispute, I clearly stated from the beginning that one of the reasons for a better HDR spec was to get rid of tone mapping conversions (and I think this is the 3rd time I've repeated it), then you immediately go on to say that we are hung up on tone mapping because HDR is not tone mapping (I was the first to note that out of the gate)... When I see people post things just to be contradictory, hence topics that were clearly not in dispute, but they say they are in dispute, then it just makes me think someone is just arguing for the sake of arguing. If your not, that is fine, but it seemed that way, because obviously that should have been clear without any further discussion.

I never meant (nor did I say) that HDR was a contrast enhancing algorithm, but I was simply using the term in the context of contrast. I was referring to HDR in the sense of how people were currently "abusing" it. To my understanding, a lot of HDR UHD content coming out has been very enhanced by contrast enhancing algorithms, maybe almost all of it. And at a level much higher than previous formats, especially given the added enhancements of things like Dolby Vision.

The problem is there is no way I keep up with all the internal workings of how every TV manufacturer and projector implemented the HDR metadata response, such as with DolbyVision and all the other formats. So really some of the way this stuff works is actually left up to the MFR at this point, the standards only go so far, so its hard to say what exactly amps contrast in every situation. Even if the metadata is only the basic amount contained in the regular HDR specs and not the Dolby Visions enhanced metadata, your device is still responding differently because of the newer code and different curves implemented due to the higher peak luminance. In more expensive TV's, you probably have more control than the cheaper ones.

I simply meant that it allows the contrast enhancing algorithms to use a natively higher luminance due to the encoding in HDR. The point is though, when you say HDR and explicitly refer to contrast, then it should be understood that you are talking about HDR in a contrast enhancing sense (like Dolby Vision, Real HDR, remastered with post-filtering techniques, or whatever)... There really should be no need to list all the extended / enhanced formats in the explanation, just because the base format has less metadata.

With the expanded range by way of a higher luminance natively available in HDR, then the peak luminance in dynamic contrast between scenes can be increased by default even from a normal every-day camera (depending on how you set the peaks), so in some cases simply using an HDR format in a camera may actually increase dynamic contrast between scenes without any changes or special settings of how you transferred the content to an HDR encoding spec. So I don't think it's right either to say HDR doesn't ever increase contrast, well sort of, but it can show higher luminance in a different frame which increases dynamic contrast, even from the same media that was in a different format simply using the standard conversion software even at all default values (because the peaks are converted differently by default in some cases). So now what is purist becomes harder to define.

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post #14965 of 14991 Old 08-18-2016, 04:12 PM
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I think most everyone will like HDR, when done correctly. It will be closer to real life.
While it is closer to real life, that does not necessarily mean everyone will like it. For instance, 60fps is closer to real life than 24fps. Yet most prefer 24fps.

I personally support HDR for movies that had an HDR theatrical run like Tomorrowland. But when you start taking movies that only had SDR runs like Ghostbusters 1984 and release in UHDBD HDR, then that smacks of revisionism to me - and it's hard to not see it happening only so the studio can sell another copy. Plus, who is supervising all of these HDR re-gradings of films originally graded for SDR? I would surmise in most (not all) cases the original crew is not involved.
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post #14966 of 14991 Old 08-18-2016, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy;46152457[B
][/B]I never meant (nor did I say) that HDR was a contrast enhancing algorithm, but I was simply using the term in the context of contrast. I was referring to HDR in the sense of how people were currently "abusing" it.
I understand now what you're trying to get at, and no I wasn't trying to argue just to argue (I don't do that), but given Darbee is a contrast enhancing algorithm "HDR is kind of like having a super-darbee..." sure sounds like that's what you were saying. But I see now that "...that applies more to the entire image rather than just near the edges or borders of things" is where you were trying to separate the two.

Quote:
To my understanding, a lot of HDR UHD content coming out has been very enhanced by contrast enhancing algorithms, maybe almost all of it. And at a level much higher than previous formats, especially given the added enhancements of things like Dolby Vision.
I'll get a better idea when I get my RS600, but what I've seen of the number of UHD discs I own and have watched on my RS4910, I haven't noticed any "overdone" contrast with UHD/HDR,
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post #14967 of 14991 Old 08-19-2016, 05:32 AM - Thread Starter
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here is the menu screen for the 5040 with the manual lens iris adjustment.






based on Cine4home's info clamped down it goes from 1300 lumens to a bit over 1000 with a slight bump in contrast.


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post #14968 of 14991 Old 08-19-2016, 06:01 AM
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it's a nice looking update to the 5030 series.

here is a tribute to the other WAF / Living room friendly projectors. My favorite is the Pearl White Mitsubishi HC9000.


I really wish Mitsubishi had another shot at using Sony's SXRD panels. A small 25% bump in native on/off contrast, fixing the brightness uniformity issues, and getting the DI to work like Sony's or JVCs would have made that unit a KILLER when it came to picture quality. They would have had high brightness ~1000 lumens, high ANSI contrast at 450:1, high on/off contrast 25000:1, the best non-DLP native motion, the best FI system I've seen, quiet operation and even a sexy looking chassis. 3D was pretty bad, but to be honest, at the time of that unit coming out I would have been fine with using a cheap DLP unit if it meant best in class 2D from a HC9000D MKII. It really makes you wonder what the hell Sony is doing when Mitsubishi's FIRST projector based on SXRD is better in many regards to most of Sony's own projectors using the same technology they've built their projectors around for decades now.
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post #14969 of 14991 Old 08-19-2016, 06:23 AM - Thread Starter
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yes that is a shame a v2.0 of that projector never came out. 3D was possibly the worst i've seen or it could have been the Panasonic 8000 for a close tie. But 2D was very nice as long as the iris wasn't clamped down much. if I recall things got wacky when the iris was closed down too much. (color uniformity, etc)






What is Sony going to do with the HW65? I believe it was just released late last year and don't see many owners here. It's now well behind the lumen output of the 5040 and RS400 plus no HDR/WCG capabilities. MSRP is still listed at $3999. The DI isn't worth the large amount over the HW45 @ $1999.
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post #14970 of 14991 Old 08-19-2016, 06:44 AM
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I would be curious of sales of the RS400 vs the Sony HW65 as that choice is such a no-brainer for most applications. However, the brand name of 'Sony' is still incredibly alluring to a lot of people.


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