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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Thanks for the recommend on the Dune Solo 4K Zombie. Took delivery over the weekend, and have spent last night setting up the interface with yaDIS:

I've not done any critical viewing yet, but I'm over the moon with the speed of access and playback of the unit, it puts my aging Netgear NeoTV 550 to shame - and that BD Lite -> direct track play works a charm for most movies.

I think I'll be buying a second unit for the cinema room, so need to work on a 2.35:1 interface now.
good to hear! yes it's very fast overall. keep me posted on your experience with it.
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post #15002 of 15011 Old Today, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Not quite sure where to put this post, so I figured Zombie's "general" projector thread is probably the best place. I've had a Sony 665ES here for the past week. For the past few days I've been watching only the Sony by itself to get myself familiar with the unit. Tonight was the first night I directly compared my RS500 to the 665ES. I made quite a few observations. Let's forget the price difference for a second and just talk about these two projectors as if they cost the same. The biggest obvious difference is 1080p vs native 4K. My specific 665ES sample actually looks remarkably good when it comes to pixel focus. This is the third 6xx projector I've had here and this unit is definitely a step above those two previous unit in this regard. The first two were quick 15 minute demo's at two different dealers so I never got a chance to do an in depth look at one of these units prior to this. It's strikingly similar to the 1100ES I had here last year in the center of the image. The 665ES does slightly lose that crispness towards the outer edges however, unlike the 1100ES. If we look at text with the 665ES versus the RS500 when both fed a UHD signal you can tell one is native 4K and the other is simulating it. That might make you think one is sharper than the other. This is somewhat true and I'll get to that in a second. One of the recurring issues I've seen on the Sony 4K models is that they have an issue with posterization. Essentially the image it puts out is lacking smooth gradations of color. This ties back in nicely with the point I wanted to make with sharpness between the two. With video content, which does not rely solely on well defined square pixels, I actually think the JVC takes a small step above the 665ES. You see, we lose a lot of fine detail in color gradations within the image because the Sony can't fully resolve those sublte changes in color between the pixels as well as the JVC can. Though, you can tell that the Sony looks sharper with things like subtitles. Subtitles sharpness relies heavily on making sure those square pixels are nicely defined. With eshift we get those pixels "smoothed" out if you will so it doesn't look quite a crisp as the Sony. But again, with actual video, I find the JVC to look a tad sharper in terms of color resolution. You simply are able to see more subtle detail in the transitions on peoples faces for example. You slightly lose that on the Sony because of it's issue with posterization. A good example of what the issue looks like on the 665ES can be found here (photo creds go to Zombie).

Contrast is a toss up because I don't like to use the DI on the JVC. Sony has a very good DI solution (they've fixed the earlier issues on the 665ES with a firmware update) and I don't mind leaving theirs on. If I have the DI enabled on the Sony and leave the JVC in manual iris mode with it stepped down 3 or 4 clicks I get roughly the same on/off contrast performance with the JVC being a more "stable" as there's no gamma or brightness fluctuations happening. If I enable the DI on the JVC, it's a hands down no contest victory for the JVC but this is to be expected. I would say the image on the Sony "pops" just a tad more. I would imagine this is due to the ~30% higher ANSI contrast on the Sony. Motion is visibly better on the Sony too by a small but noticeable amount. I did find if I allow for a slight brightness boost on the JVC (normally I compare projectors brightness matched) I can get the JVC to give a similar level of "pop" that the Sony gives when brightness matched. So in a small unfair situation I can get the JVC to match the Sony. The last big thing I noticed about the Sony where it has an advantage over the JVC is that it can appear a tad more "natural" looking. Similar to how a good DLP projector looks. It's image just has a slightly more effortless look to it. This is probably the hardest thing to describe with words. The JVC by comparison can look just slightly more "digital". I just don't know how to quantify it or describe it in words. It's a subtle difference for sure, but it's there to my eyes.

There's a lot to like about the Sony, that's for sure and I would have definitely kept the Sony and sold the JVC if it weren't for that issue with posterization. I thought by now they'd have fixed that issue (it was there on the 1100ES too). There's also the chance it may lose contrast. I have no idea if they've put some type of countermeasures in place to stop it. I measured almost 17000:1 native contrast on my unit. This is near the telephoto end of the lens. So contrast is basically at the same level as the 1100ES. That's impressive if you look at the price difference between the two. It's good to see Sony making strides in giving more contrast at lower prices. But I've decided to keep the JVC due to the issue with posterization. I've made my mind up that the two or three areas where the Sony excels over the JVC don't make up for the issue with posterization. Honest to God, I would have kept the Sony and sold the JVC if it weren't for this one issue. Please please please Sony...fix this and I promise to give you more money.
Nice write up, very clear and unbiased. Maybe at least now you can give me a little credence to the disagreement we had a few months ago? I got hammered by you guys b/c I said I did a demo at my dealer of the 665 and the RS600 and that, to my eyes, the Sony had a more pleasing 1080P image. At least maybe now you could agree as to why someone could come to that conclusion? All of the technical data aside and simply a person seeing two projectors and using their eyes to decide which they prefer?
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post #15003 of 15011 Old Today, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by baseball0618 View Post
Nice write up, very clear and unbiased. Maybe at least now you can give me a little credence to the disagreement we had a few months ago? I got hammered by you guys b/c I said I did a demo at my dealer of the 665 and the RS600 and that, to my eyes, the Sony had a more pleasing 1080P image. At least maybe now you could agree as to why someone could come to that conclusion? All of the technical data aside and simply a person seeing two projectors and using their eyes to decide which they prefer?
I wouldn't agree with that. I tested out sending a 1080p image to the Sony several times and I got the impression that it was capable of a better image if it didn't have to do the scaling. The Sony was being fed a native UHD signal the entire time last night during my comparison. I did this for two reasons. I don't think the Sony's internal scaling solution is all the great and also because the Sony seems to add some form of sharpening to the image that I couldn't seem to disable when fed 1080p. I could completely get rid of the sharpening issue by sending it a UHD signal. I also found the 665ES's image to look much better when I fed it scaled content from my HTPC (using MadVR) and inputted that signal as UHD. Let's put it this way, if the 665ES were stuck with only allowing 1080p to be sent to it, I would not have liked it anywhere near as much as I did. You might have been more enticed by the Sony's added sharpening and/or Reality Creation if that was enabled during your comparison. I can understand that if that were the case, but I feel it can give the image an unnatural look and I try to avoid that at all costs. In the end, overall, I still prefer the JVCs image, which is why I sold the Sony.

I also want to point out that I really liked this specific unit. This is the 3rd 6xx series unit I've seen and the first two could not focus down on pixels anywhere near as well as this unit could. I don't know if this is a fluke (as the lens in all of these 6xx units are the same over the years). So if I had received a unit with a lens with resolving capabilities similar to that of those previous units, it would have been a no contest win for the JVC. The contrast was only able to keep up if I had the DI disabled on the JVC and it on with the Sony and that image pop was only better on the Sony if I brightness matched. The JVC was able to match it if I let be a little brighter. Lots of variables here to consider, but in the end I still walked away thinking that overall the JVC still has the better image. If Sony can resolve it's issue with posterization I'd probably buy one, but this one issue alone really has me hesitant in owning one.

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post #15004 of 15011 Old Today, 08:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Panasonic vs Samsung UHD

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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
That's a good question. I've heard from a number of folks attempting SDR WCG + HDFury combo on the Samsung say the same thing, 'it doesn't look right'. I agree and can't put my finger on it.

Once I fire up the Panasonic this weekend I'll have a chance to take a closer look at this. Manni seems thrilled with the Panasonic with UHD SDR so i'm definitely looking forward to checking this out.



a short update - it's as awesome as @Manni01 said it was..

overall great experience so far, the SDR->HDR has to be seen vs. the Samsung, there is no comparison.

Panasonic -> HDFury (mode 10) -> JVC RS600 - UHD / SDR / BT1886 / WCG looks remarkable. I watched a number of UHD BD's and all were consistent so far with this setup. This makes hulk want to smash the Samsung for the last 5 months..

The only advantage of the Samsung now is the 24p streaming from Amazon/Netflix but expecting Panasonic will fix this in an upcoming firmware update.

There are also some sharpening tools that are very interesting to experiment with and have a bit of a Darbee / MadVR feel to them. BD upscaling is also impressive.


overall very high recommendation and will continue to provide feedback as I spend more time with it. I was holding off purchasing more UHD BD's until I saw this player with my own eyes, now anxious to pick up new titles. asta la vista samsung..
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post #15005 of 15011 Old Today, 08:58 AM
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post #15006 of 15011 Old Today, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
a short update - it's as awesome as @Manni01 said it was..

overall great experience so far, the SDR->HDR has to be seen vs. the Samsung, there is no comparison.

Panasonic -> HDFury (mode 10) -> JVC RS600 - UHD / SDR / BT1886 / WCG looks remarkable. I watched a number of UHD BD's and all were consistent so far with this setup. This makes hulk want to smash the Samsung for the last 5 months..

The only advantage of the Samsung now is the 24p streaming from Amazon/Netflix but expecting Panasonic will fix this in an upcoming firmware update.

There are also some sharpening tools that are very interesting to experiment with and have a bit of a Darbee / MadVR feel to them. BD upscaling is also impressive.


overall very high recommendation and will continue to provide feedback as I spend more time with it. I was holding off purchasing more UHD BD's until I saw this player with my own eyes, now anxious to pick up new titles. asta la vista samsung..

Glad to hear that.

You might want to clarify that you mean SDR BT2020 (gamut-wise) and BT1886 (gamma-wise). Otherwise people might get confused as BT1886 can be used as a shortcut for Rec-709/Gamma 2.4.

What we do is use the HDR to SDR conversion from the Panasonic (HDR set to AUTO) using the Integral to trick it into thinking the JVC can do BT2020 but not HDR (otherwise the Pana would send SDR Rec-709 if you switch HDR to OFF in the player), then we use a standard gamma curve in the JVC instead of Gamma D (which is not selected automatically as it's not HDR but SDR which is sent by the player), say a 2.4 preset or a custom BT1886 curve, to display the HDR content in SDR but with the WCG (so still using the BT2020 profile), most importantly with the DI enabled and the iris closed as much as necessary (I use low lamp iris -14 to get 45nits as -13 gives me 70nits which is way too bright in my bat loft!).

By the way, experts are not sure whether we should use a BT1886 gamma or a 2.4 power gamma when converting HDR to SDR. To me it looked like 2.4 would cause a minor black crush, so I use BT1886, but you might want to try both and decide which looks more right to your eyes. BT1886 is the standard for SDR on UHD Bluray, but it's not clear if we should use BT1886 or not when converting HDR to SDR. BT1886 looked better to me for most titles, but I might be wrong.

I'm busy with work so I'm not following any thread at the moment, but I thought this clarification might help. Have fun with the Pana, you should watch Lone Survivor and Lucy with it in SDR BT2020 if you haven't done so already, best picture I've seen at home
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post #15007 of 15011 Old Today, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
By the way, experts are not sure whether we should use a BT1886 gamma or a 2.4 power gamma when converting HDR to SDR. To me it looked like 2.4 would cause a minor black crush, so I use BT1886, but you might want to try both and decide which looks more right to your eyes. BT1886 is the standard for SDR on UHD Bluray, but it's not clear if we should use BT1886 or not when converting HDR to SDR. BT1886 looked better to me for most titles, but I might be wrong.
Not an expert, but I'd also vote for BT.1886. I see no reason why HDR -> SDR converted content should be treated differently (in terms of gamma) to straight SDR content. But maybe the exports who prefer 2.4 power have reasons for doing so that I can't think of right now.
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post #15008 of 15011 Old Today, 09:53 AM
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Not an expert, but I'd also vote for BT.1886. I see no reason why HDR -> SDR converted content should be treated differently (in terms of gamma) to straight SDR content. But maybe the exports who prefer 2.4 power have reasons for doing so that I can't think of right now.
Thanks for pitching in. It's Stacey who seemed to think that we might not need the black compensation when displaying HDR converted to SDR, but he'd rather watch bluray than SDR BT2020 so we have a different opinion on that as well. . You might want to ask him in this thread, I posted the question here SpectraCal on HDR and he answered a bit later.

I just wanted to let others know that although I was personally recommending using BT1886 with the UB900-Integral-JVC combo based on what I've seen with a few titles, it was by no mean an official recommendation coming from calibration experts, given Stacey's answer.
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I'd have though the right thing to use would be the inverse of whatever the player uses. So if the player converts HDR to an inverse BT.1886 you'd want to use BT.1886, if it converts to inverse gamma 2.4, you'd want to use that.
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I'd have though the right thing to use would be the inverse of whatever the player uses. So if the player converts HDR to an inverse BT.1886 you'd want to use BT.1886, if it converts to inverse gamma 2.4, you'd want to use that.
I thought the only difference between gamma 2.4 and BT.1886 is a constant added to the input signal, prior to raising to the 2.4 power. With this constant (the brightness adjustment) being based on the projector's (or TV's) black floor.

And since all projectors have a black floor above 0, I would think one should use BT.1886 to avoid black crush at low input signals. (And isn't adjusting to BT.1886 little more than setting gamma to 2.4, and raising the brightness control until you can just see code 16/17, or maybe even 18, if it starts to raise the black floor too much?)
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post #15011 of 15011 Old Today, 02:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Glad to hear that.

You might want to clarify that you mean SDR BT2020 (gamut-wise) and BT1886 (gamma-wise). Otherwise people might get confused as BT1886 can be used as a shortcut for Rec-709/Gamma 2.4.

What we do is use the HDR to SDR conversion from the Panasonic (HDR set to AUTO) using the Integral to trick it into thinking the JVC can do BT2020 but not HDR (otherwise the Pana would send SDR Rec-709 if you switch HDR to OFF in the player), then we use a standard gamma curve in the JVC instead of Gamma D (which is not selected automatically as it's not HDR but SDR which is sent by the player), say a 2.4 preset or a custom BT1886 curve, to display the HDR content in SDR but with the WCG (so still using the BT2020 profile), most importantly with the DI enabled and the iris closed as much as necessary (I use low lamp iris -14 to get 45nits as -13 gives me 70nits which is way too bright in my bat loft!).

By the way, experts are not sure whether we should use a BT1886 gamma or a 2.4 power gamma when converting HDR to SDR. To me it looked like 2.4 would cause a minor black crush, so I use BT1886, but you might want to try both and decide which looks more right to your eyes. BT1886 is the standard for SDR on UHD Bluray, but it's not clear if we should use BT1886 or not when converting HDR to SDR. BT1886 looked better to me for most titles, but I might be wrong.

I'm busy with work so I'm not following any thread at the moment, but I thought this clarification might help. Have fun with the Pana, you should watch Lone Survivor and Lucy with it in SDR BT2020 if you haven't done so already, best picture I've seen at home
Thanks Manni. From the few movies I've seen so far i've been using BT1886 and it looks very good. I'm not really seeing BC with this setup.

I just picked up Lucy and Lone Survivor to check out for Friday night. DeadPool and The Martian looked excellent, it's hard to believe how well this combo works.

If folks are picking up this player, you must grab the HDFury as well to check this out. it's definitely worth seeing.
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