Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 502 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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Old 09-02-2016, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
No news for the LS10K replacement?
Not yet - curious to hear though.
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Old 09-02-2016, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
now that the VW1100 is officially done
It is? You mean no more production and no director successor? Where did you get that from?
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Old 09-02-2016, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
this is tough, it's like trying to describe a beautiful photo or artwork with just words.

I'll try though. I can say the WCG does not just look like an over-saturated R709 gamut. It looks very natural and I find it visually appealing vs. the typical BD.

To use a specific example, if I demo'd Deadpool BD R709 on the Planar vs. the UHD on the RS600 SDR / WCG you would absolutely see the difference between the 2 sources and I'd be preferring the later. The low APL scene contrast alone is worth the price of admission. The whole package looks amazing.

I see no negatives to this setup and anyone with the 2016 JVC's owes it to themselves to pick up the Panasonic + HDfury to truly enjoy the benefits of these UHD disks.
You are making it tough on a guy, holding out for the Oppo.
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Old 09-02-2016, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
Not yet - curious to hear though.
Confirm from IFA, no replacement for the LS10000
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Old 09-02-2016, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post
Confirm from IFA, no replacement for the LS10000
Going to largely copy my post from the LS10000 thread, since we're now talking about this here as well:

Since no new model was shown at IFA, I really hope that Epson plan to show an update to the LS10000 at Cedia. Would it really make sense to wait another year to update it? It throws an incredible image with regular blu-ray, but with the introduction of the 5040 mid-range model that they just released, I really don't see how they can let their flagship lag behing much longer with regards to UHD compatability. One more year of LS10000 units leaving the factory doesn't really make any sense with how the market looks right now. How many would they sell?

All that said - I watched two movies last night and the LS10000 keeps bringing a smile to my face. It throws a fantastic and rich looking image, but in my opinion they need to get it up to date if it's going to stay competitive at this price point. The current JVCs give a lot more for the money right now.
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Old 09-02-2016, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
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yes an LS10K update with a BT2020 mapping would be good, then you could use the Panasonic + HDFury for the SRD / WCG combo.

mike- trust me just get it.. Oppo is months ago and it will take at least 1 comparison once released to see if they nailed the SDR conversion as well as Panasonic is doing it. I knew Manni was excited now I see why... especially after struggling with the Samsung for the last 5 month.

Madshi - coming on 3 years with no new announcement. That chassis is likely cooked, maybe there will be a 3000ES at VW1100 MSRP with ~3000 lumens next year. for now a huge gap between the 665 and 5000ES in pricing. JVC found this place that could take a number of those potential customers.
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Old 09-02-2016, 01:02 PM
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Not that I can really afford to upgrade until I sell some more stuff, but is Best Buy really the only place in the US that sells the UB900?
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Old 09-02-2016, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kohe321 View Post
Going to largely copy my post from the LS10000 thread, since we're now talking about this here as well:

Since no new model was shown at IFA, I really hope that Epson plan to show an update to the LS10000 at Cedia. Would it really make sense to wait another year to update it? It throws an incredible image with regular blu-ray, but with the introduction of the 5040 mid-range model that they just released, I really don't see how they can let their flagship lag behing much longer with regards to UHD compatability. One more year of LS10000 units leaving the factory doesn't really make any sense with how the market looks right now. How many would they sell?

All that said - I watched two movies last night and the LS10000 keeps bringing a smile to my face. It throws a fantastic and rich looking image, but in my opinion they need to get it up to date if it's going to stay competitive at this price point. The current JVCs give a lot more for the money right now.


My concern all along with the LS10000 has been how well it's sold? There seems to be so few people on the forum who own it and given the price of it, I get the feeling the laser just wasn't worth it enough for a lot of people. I wonder if lack of sales has limited Epson's incentive to spend money on an updated model? Maybe it will take another year of sales to help recoup some R&D to justify an updated version? Just my speculation. It seems Epson decided to focus and spend money on the LCD models this year. OR, maybe they just release a native 4K LS10000 for next year or 2018? However, that's probably unlikely because we know how expensive 4K laser is today and Epson right now doesn't seem to want to compete in that 30-60K range. I don't see that price dropping soon to sub $10K.

Last edited by DavidHir; 09-02-2016 at 01:11 PM.
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Old 09-02-2016, 03:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Not that I can really afford to upgrade until I sell some more stuff, but is Best Buy really the only place in the US that sells the UB900?
Robert @ Value Electronics in NY has them in stock with quick shipping. just do it. don't think about it....
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Old 09-03-2016, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Not that I can really afford to upgrade until I sell some more stuff, but is Best Buy really the only place in the US that sells the UB900?
Their will be a cheaper option from Panasonic available later this year. The DMP-UB700

http://www.whathifi.com/panasonic/dmp-ub700/review
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Old 09-03-2016, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post
Their will be a cheaper option from Panasonic available later this year. The DMP-UB700

http://www.whathifi.com/panasonic/dmp-ub700/review
I can wait a few more weeks and get the cheaper model. I don't need the nicer DAC un the UB900 as I'd be bitsreaming all my audio anyways. I'm glad I didn't buy the UB900 last night. I almost did though
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Old 09-04-2016, 02:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
this is tough, it's like trying to describe a beautiful photo or artwork with just words.

I'll try though. I can say the WCG does not just look like an over-saturated R709 gamut. It looks very natural and I find it visually appealing vs. the typical BD.

To use a specific example, if I demo'd Deadpool BD R709 on the Planar vs. the UHD on the RS600 SDR / WCG you would absolutely see the difference between the 2 sources and I'd be preferring the later. The low APL scene contrast alone is worth the price of admission. The whole package looks amazing.

I see no negatives to this setup and anyone with the 2016 JVC's owes it to themselves to pick up the Panasonic + HDfury to truly enjoy the benefits of these UHD disks.
You are making it tough on a guy, holding out for the Oppo.
I feel the same way, but then I have look at what movies are available in uhd and the sense of missing out evaporates. Very few movies still that I would consider worthwhile. I'm hoping the coming oppo can convert to sdr without the hdfury.
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Old 09-04-2016, 08:08 AM - Thread Starter
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it will take 1 good compare of the UB700 and UB900 to make sure the gold is identical (HDR -> SDR conversion). Hopefully they left this alone and just changed the audio side.

drexler - after struggling with the Samsung for 5+ months this was worth it to me to see the best potential of the RS600. Yes the pickings are slim now but I'm hoping we see favorites soon on UHD BD for the WCG alone. We demo'd Lucy in SDR / WCG last night, it looks noticeably better than the BD in R709.

Plus I am now 100% ready for this...



James Cameron: The Abyss Remastered in 4K, Coming to Blu-ray


Director James Cameron has confirmed that his beloved film The Abyss has been recently remastered in 4K and will be released on Blu-ray in 2017. Mr. Cameron leaked the news while promoting the upcoming 30th anniversary Blu-ray release of Aliens at Comic-Con in San Diego.

"We've done a wet-gate 4K scan of the original negative, and it's going to look insanely good. We're going to do an authoring pass in the DI for Blu-ray and HDR at the same time", Cameron said.
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Old 09-04-2016, 08:32 AM - Thread Starter
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@Javs - so you guys are running a VW320 vs. JVC shootout in the VW665 thread?

feel free to post your findings here or link to a new thread once your done so others can see.


When you compare the projectors, take a close up look at the potential for posterization on the Sony.

looking closer at the image, I was seeing a considerable amount of posterization. Which at first glance, could be mistaken for increased sharpness but in reality, it's damaging the source content. There was no real way to defeat this. Using MadVR definitely improved it for BD upscaling vs. the internal processing, but we still had this blotchy appearance.


http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/183475

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/183477


VW1100



RS600




VW1100



RS600

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Old 09-04-2016, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
@Javs - so you guys are running a VW320 vs. JVC shootout in the VW665 thread?

feel free to post your findings here or link to a new thread once your done so others can see.


When you compare the projectors, take a close up look at the potential for posterization on the Sony.

looking closer at the image, I was seeing a considerable amount of posterization. Which at first glance, could be mistaken for increased sharpness but in reality, it's damaging the source content. There was no real way to defeat this. Using MadVR definitely improved it for BD upscaling vs. the internal processing, but we still had this blotchy appearance.


http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/183475

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/183477


VW1100



RS600




VW1100



RS600

Zombie

Do you have(or did you take) a screen shot of your 1100 in cinema 1 mode(as opposed to reference mode) showing exactly the same moment.

Would be interested to see how that looks compared to the rs600.

I am not defending posterization.........I don't like it's effect on my 1000es for the record.
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Old 09-04-2016, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi, yes I'll go back through my original photos to find them. The only difference between the modes was how the posterization looked - basically shape and color but it was still there.

I've calibrated a number of 1000 and 1100's, all were the same so it wasn't specific to my 1100. I know some folks will say what difference does it make if you don't see it at seating distance, but it changes how the overall image appears when compared to other projectors like the RS600 and the razor sharp .95 DLP Planar. I personally found it too harsh even with RC turned all the way down.

It can be somewhat mitigated with an HTPC using MadVR. I think it holds back the potential of the native 4K panels. The effect seemed less with the VW600 I had here for 4 months but is still present.

between this and native contrast that doesn't work well in my dark room, it didn't make sense to keep it. Plus no chance for using the UHD WCG which is really the next step up in overall PQ. The 1000/1100 was unfortunately too far ahead of it's time.


Lucy in UHD SDR WCG is my new HT demo disk (vs. years of Oblivion and Skyfall BD). It looks out of this world good with this current setup. very convincing low APL scenes + FTB (iris @ -10). Thanks @Manni01 and @Javs for the time and effort on the Panasonic + HDfury / JVC combo.
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Old 09-04-2016, 12:03 PM
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I feel the same way, but then I have look at what movies are available in uhd and the sense of missing out evaporates. Very few movies still that I would consider worthwhile. I'm hoping the coming oppo can convert to sdr without the hdfury.

Ditto. The Oppo could be worth more than the Panny if it eliminated the need for the Fury. The 700 + the fury may be the least expensive way to go if the Oppo loads up on analog audio, which I don't need since it's all bitstream for the 3D audio codecs.

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Old 09-04-2016, 12:09 PM - Thread Starter
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The key area for the Oppo is going to be how much focus they put into the HDR - SDR conversion. This adds a big value to the Panasonic vs. the other UHD players so far.

Oppo is a small enough company, someone should reach out to them and ask where this is on their agenda for the upcoming UHD players.




edit: on the less expensive Panasonic UB700 they are including a cheap remote vs. the nice backlit model with the UB900. They should just include the nice one, how much more could it have cost.


Last edited by zombie10k; 09-04-2016 at 12:20 PM.
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Old 09-04-2016, 12:28 PM
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Zombie - which scene are you using from Oblivion, to show the posterization, I will take a look on my VW520, I also have the VW1000 and I think it is a lot worse than the VW520, on this posterization issue.
I will try to take a picture.
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Old 09-04-2016, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi, the close ups were from frame 1:04:48. On the VW600 it was less prevalent than the VW1100 for certain but Seegs mentioned seeing it recently on the VW665. Curious to see how yours looks when you get a chance. thanks!

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Old 09-04-2016, 12:55 PM
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Yes the posterization issue is still there on the 665ES. Switching picture modes did change how it looked but did not eliminate it. I've been told this is a hardware issue with how the SXRD panels are driven and isn't something that can be fixed in software/firmware. Zombie is a much better photographer than I am. His photos really show the loss in color information that occurs in the fine gradations. Other than the potential contrast loss due to panel degradation, this is another issue that had put me off of keeping a Sony 4K unit here for a long period of time. I will not invest money into a sony projector until both issues are addressed.

Last edited by Seegs108; 09-04-2016 at 01:49 PM.
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Old 09-04-2016, 03:35 PM
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Here are pictures from Oblivion on my VW520.
Settings on the projector is:
Reference
RC on
20
20
Sharpness 10
Input:
Panasonic UB900 3840x2160
Default settings
Screen:
Stewart Studiotek 130


Camera Sony A7sII
Lens Sony GM 24-70mm 2.8
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Old 09-04-2016, 03:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Old 09-04-2016, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted99 View Post
Ditto. The Oppo could be worth more than the Panny if it eliminated the need for the Fury. The 700 + the fury may be the least expensive way to go if the Oppo loads up on analog audio, which I don't need since it's all bitstream for the 3D audio codecs.
Hi Ted,

I'm hoping, the yawl utilise their new custom integrated ci platform, e.g. in the 101ci player here.

http://www.apollohifi.com.au/oppo-bd...sc-player.html

in essence all the cr@p stripped out. just a digital transport. given it cost same as the sammy now in uhd version hoping it doesnt come in at 103/105 price point. that said in the oppo wish list thread you see all the things people are suggesting for the next oppo quite likely its going to be piled up with all sort of sh!te no buddy really needs to watch uhds and just bumping up the costs...
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Old 09-04-2016, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
The key area for the Oppo is going to be how much focus they put into the HDR - SDR conversion. This adds a big value to the Panasonic vs. the other UHD players so far.

Oppo is a small enough company, someone should reach out to them and ask where this is on their agenda for the upcoming UHD players.




edit: on the less expensive Panasonic UB700 they are including a cheap remote vs. the nice backlit model with the UB900. They should just include the nice one, how much more could it have cost.

i can imagine some buying the 900 just for the remote then. but dont you guys use universal remotes. mines about 10 years old in a harmony touch screen. and while I bought the $10 full sized sammy remote to be honest it never gets used. the universal remote does all. infact I tend to just use the little supplied sammy remote for booting in the right region for blu-ray and thats it

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Old 09-04-2016, 03:51 PM
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Thanks for posting. is this the UHD or BD?
It's the BD
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Old 09-04-2016, 03:56 PM
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Unfortunately, I think the posterization is a function of the hardware limitations and or processing choices of the Sony units. As other stated, Sony put out the VW-1000 with technology limitations of the time. The unit throws a great image, but it does have some limitations in certain areas. From my seating distance the posterization is not bothersome for me but I do use a MadVR equipped HTPC for most content. I know for fact that some color detail is being lost compared to my 12 bit DLP unit. For me it hasn't been a deal breaker but more of a minor annoyance. With that being said it would be nice to not have those limitations on my next unit.
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Old 09-04-2016, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Thanks for posting. is this the UHD or BD?
I will snap a few more photos of my 665ES. It's already sold and will be shipping out tomorrow, so tonight is my last chance. I PM'ed you a photo of it and my photo looks similar to the one mirodk. It's much more prevalent in real life and in no way resembles that photo. It looks remarkably similar to the photo you took. I'll have to play around with my DSLR and see if I can find the right combination of settings to properly photograph it.
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Old 09-04-2016, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I will snap a few more photos of my 665ES. It's already sold and will be shipping out tomorrow, so tonight is my last chance. I PM'ed you a photo of it and my photo looks similar to the one mirodk. It's much more prevalent in real life and in no way resembles that photo. It looks remarkably similar to the photo you took. I'll have to play around with my DSLR and see if I can find the right combination of settings to properly photograph it.
Seegs - I can assure you that my pictures resembles what I see on my screen.
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Old 09-04-2016, 04:16 PM
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Seegs - I can assure you that my pictures resembles what I see on my screen.
Then the 520ES uses completely different hardware and software than the 665ES and 1100ES before it. But as we know, that's not the case and uses the same hardware as the 665ES. If we take your photo and slightly adjust the brightness and contrast, as the photo looks a little overexposed which might be why posterization is hard to see, we can see the issue in your image:



As I mentioned, in person the issue is very easy to see. There are several others who can verify this and have on the forum. Zombie's photo of it is the best digital capture of what it looks like in person that I've seen yet.

Last edited by Seegs108; 09-04-2016 at 04:26 PM.
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