Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 529 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #15841 of 16739 Old 01-12-2017, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
The new " best " would be 5000 lumens, and 150,000:1 contrast native contrast, and 4K native chips, and laser. Unfortunately that does not exist. Yet. Leaving everything else that does exist 2nd best or below. So, you just have to pick exactly which picture qualities and features are important to you, that do exist, now. And hope to God that if and when someone does build a projector that has 5000 lumens, and 150,000:1 contrast, and 4K native chips, and laser, that it isn't $ 150K !
I think something like a 4 x 4 JVC DLA-RS500 setup would be killer. Run each in 1080p native mode and edge blending the images together. The end result would be native 4K with up to ~6000 lumens with P3 color and extremely high on/off contrast. HDR would look killer. I suspect it could be done for less than $20000 too.
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post #15842 of 16739 Old 01-12-2017, 03:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I think something like a 4 x 4 JVC DLA-RS500 setup would be killer. Run each in 1080p native mode and edge blending the images together. The end result would be native 4K with up to ~6000 lumens with P3 color and extremely high on/off contrast. HDR would look killer. I suspect it could be done for less than $20000 too.
This would be a nightmare to calibrate...
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post #15843 of 16739 Old 01-12-2017, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
This would be a nightmare to calibrate...
If it saved me $30000 I'd do it. Or hire someone to do it for me.
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post #15844 of 16739 Old 01-12-2017, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
If it saved me $30000 I'd do it. Or hire someone to do it for me.
Have you ever totally zoomed your RS500 in so the frame is tiny on your screen? I did this the other day when I was measuring my contrast, and I was pretty surprised to see SIGNIFICANT light bleeding WAY outside the outer edge of the image.

I am not talking about just a halo bar around the frame a few inches, I'm talking huge light bleed bars about 30% further outside the frame of the picture. No matter which Iris position, they still were there, and its coming from well inside the lense, since I stood in the patch of one of these light bleeds and looked back into the lens and moved my head from side to side, and sure enough it got brighter and darker as I did it, so I am not sure what this could be. Its quite alarming. JVC really need to sort out the internal reflections and light bleed.

This would make any stacking and edge matching impossible, would totally destroy your ANSI contrast it was that bad.

I should try and get a picture of it later.
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post #15845 of 16739 Old 01-12-2017, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
This would be a nightmare to calibrate...
There are some things I like stacked - projectors are not one of them.

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post #15846 of 16739 Old 01-12-2017, 08:28 PM
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Did you not see the part where I said: "I am not saying you are a Sony guy"
All I am saying, I understand why the JVC fan guys are complaining, since this is a different type of projector for JVC, but the RS4500 is closer in design to a Sony than it is to the existing JVC's, at least on paper. It has lower native contrast and higher ANSI compared to the other JVC models. That is more the Sony recipe. I have always said, I liked my VW600ES. I have also said, one of the main reasons I got rid of it was because it could not do vertical stretch with 4K content. I have to use an A-lens in my system. Now 4K took a little longer to get here than I expected, but it is here and it is here to stay, it looks like.

I did see that part, but I am a Sony guy and a JVC apparently . Both the RS600 and VW675 are currently stacked in my theater . One will stay, one has to go at some point, which one will it be?? This sounds like an intro for a reality TV show .


Having fun doing some a/b actually, still getting things dialed in to keep it fair , have to re-familiarize myself with the Sony it's been a while actually.


I enjoyed my VW600 too, was the best upgrade purchase I ever made, cost aside . I bought the Lumagen so I could hang on to the VW600, use the Lumagen to do 4K stretch and faux 4K HDR using the lumagen to map. Yup, going to wait it out another year or two until the new 4K models appear fall 2017 . VW600 is gone, now I have two projectors a JVC and a new Sony. Wasn't in the plan but hey, plans change .


No wonder the JVC guys are not happy. Contrast has been their bragging rights for years, the reason they bought the product in he first place . I'm sure they assumed the RS4500 was going to be nothing less than what they have been used to, most anticipated blowing Sony out of the water . Problem now is it doesn't look like that will happen, puts the whole contrast advantage in a very precarious position . Like I said earlier, the contrast measuring stick is going to have to be recalibrated . You can be guaranteed JVC have made a fine product but many will have to come to terms with different contrast numbers they are not use to seeing and then to reevaluate what it all translates to on the screen . I've always had a different view than others about contrast values, looking like my thoughts are not going to be so far off after all . Even if the current RS4500 contrast number doubles, even triples, it will not be close to the JVC bench mark, but I can almost guarantee it will be more than enough from the theater seat .

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post #15847 of 16739 Old 01-12-2017, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
This would be a nightmare to calibrate...
If a lamp went out, would you need to replace all four, or do you think you could just brightness match using the manual iris. I guess you could use the manual iris, but I bet you would have to brightness match fairly often.

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post #15848 of 16739 Old 01-12-2017, 09:58 PM
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Seegs108- On a different sort of comparison, and putting your memory back, how did you find the 3D performance of the Sim2 Lumis Solo 3D in comparison to other projectors. I remember at the time you were pretty impressed by its 3D image of the Sim2 Solo (I think the Solo was the only DLP that could do 144Hz Triple Flash). As a current DLP owner looking at replacement options I'm curious as to your thoughts, specifically on the DLP 3D vs other technology 3D since you have had DLP units in the past.
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post #15849 of 16739 Old 01-12-2017, 11:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
If a lamp went out, would you need to replace all four, or do you think you could just brightness match using the manual iris. I guess you could use the manual iris, but I bet you would have to brightness match fairly often.
I have never set up a quadruple stack, but I have setup some double stacks with edge blending and normally used pro DLP models and it is difficult enough to get them even. With 4 LCOS projectors I can only imagine the nightmare to try to keep them even in grayscale, gamma and brightness, but it would be an impressive setup for sure.

But of corse after 3-500 hours when the gamma drop has settled it would be a quite stable setup.

Last edited by Andreas21; 01-12-2017 at 11:35 PM.
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post #15850 of 16739 Old 01-13-2017, 05:26 AM - Thread Starter
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/Runco-D-73d-...s/222366316193

only 5K on ebay. I don't think these have every been reviewed or feedback from an owner.

Light output was low, curious how it looked though with this stacked setup.

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post #15851 of 16739 Old 01-13-2017, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Spizz View Post
Seegs108- On a different sort of comparison, and putting your memory back, how did you find the 3D performance of the Sim2 Lumis Solo 3D in comparison to other projectors. I remember at the time you were pretty impressed by its 3D image of the Sim2 Solo (I think the Solo was the only DLP that could do 144Hz Triple Flash). As a current DLP owner looking at replacement options I'm curious as to your thoughts, specifically on the DLP 3D vs other technology 3D since you have had DLP units in the past.
In general it was excellent. The one downside with it was that you couldn't enable the dynamic iris in 3D mode. I'd say if I were given the choice, I'd prefer to watch 3D on my current JVC though. Like any DLP projector it's going to look lackluster anytime the content get's dark. If the dynamic iris we're available in 3D, that may have changed things a bit with the Lumis. You'd be surprised how often dark content finds it's way into movies. The current JVCs are extremely bright, with extremely low crosstalk and have just as much contrast in 3D mode as 2D mode. If you haven't seen 3D on one yet, I'd highly suggest getting a demo. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.
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post #15852 of 16739 Old 01-13-2017, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Hardly anybody has seen the RS4500 with the dynamic dimming working. Only those at CES on Sunday got to see the projector with the dynamic dimming working.

Well I have seen it working with the Dynamic dimming and the dynamic dimming did not really work well unfortunately.

Of course there is hope that they improved on that over christmas. They better did, because without it the black level just does not make it...
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post #15853 of 16739 Old 01-13-2017, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
I have never set up a quadruple stack, but I have setup some double stacks with edge blending and normally used pro DLP models and it is difficult enough to get them even. With 4 LCOS projectors I can only imagine the nightmare to try to keep them even in grayscale, gamma and brightness, but it would be an impressive setup for sure.

But of corse after 3-500 hours when the gamma drop has settled it would be a quite stable setup.
Dylan saw a CRT blend two years ago and that was a nightmare. I am not sure how he thinks that would be any easier with a digital pj.

I think a stack would be easier, but still a pain.

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post #15854 of 16739 Old 01-13-2017, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post
Well I have seen it working with the Dynamic dimming and the dynamic dimming did not really work well unfortunately.

Of course there is hope that they improved on that over christmas. They better did, because without it the black level just does not make it...
Do you think that could be one of the reasons that the firmware was beta and why JVC never demoed the projector with dynamic dimming until Sunday at CES? The only time here in the US, that an RS4500 was shown with final firmware, maybe I should say shipping firmware, was Sunday at CES. That firmware did not exist earlier, so I do not see how any other viewing could have shown the dynamic dimming working properly. It may still need work, I do not know, but I will be able to see for myself soon.

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post #15855 of 16739 Old 01-13-2017, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post
Dylan saw a CRT blend two years ago and that was a nightmare. I am not sure how he thinks that would be any easier with a digital pj.

I think a stack would be easier, but still a pain.
They spent hours trying to get the blend zone to look as good as possible and it still didn't turn out all that great. As for the quad JVC setup, it's just a pipe dream. I doubt anyone will attempt it.
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post #15856 of 16739 Old 01-13-2017, 06:37 AM
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Do you think that could be one of the reasons that the firmware was beta and why JVC never demoed the projector with dynamic dimming until Sunday at CES? The only time here in the US, that an RS4500 was shown with final firmware, maybe I should say shipping firmware, was Sunday at CES. That firmware did not exist earlier, so I do not see how any other viewing could have shown the dynamic dimming working properly. It may still need work, I do not know, but I will be able to see for myself soon.
From what I've read with the 5000ES, most owners aren't impressed with it's dynamic laser dimming feature and leave it off. If JVC were to get the algorithms to a level comparable to it's mechanical dynamic iris found in the eshift units, it would definitely have a leg up over the 5000ES with darker content.
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post #15857 of 16739 Old 01-13-2017, 07:41 AM
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Boy is this a pet peeve of mine . JVC aren't the only ones holding back features to sell a new range, they all are, including every last manufacturer on the planet. Features and upgrades in development happen sporadically not like clockwork , we all know this.
The clockwork controlled delivery of features does ensure yearly sales, that is what this is all about. Many end up buying just for new features , so yea they are tapping into upgrades and new sales.
I kind of feel your pain. But I'm curious how you'd handle it, if you were a hardware manufacturer? Features & upgrades are being worked on continuously, and ready at differing times. Would you just ship it with stuff that's not finished yet? Or hold it back, until everything was complete, and have nothing new to offer in the interim?

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On the sync times, never had a problem. Ive heard many complain of this issue but to be honest, never had an issue with this . I get the odd flicker once in a while , I do see ghosting still but occurrences are few . Overall never had this issue.
That doesn't sound like the sync-issue I've read about here. That is a problem that is evidenced when you switch to a different source, or a different input rez or frame rate. Things go dark then, while the PJ handshakes with the device, negotiating both the HDMI and HDCP characteristics. This happens with any digital device, but usually takes only a few seconds. While on the JVCs it is a loooong time. I suspect it has something to do with the newer HDCP2.2, or the 18Gbit/s data link. Or both.

I think what you're referring to is syncing on the 3D glasses, which isn't what folks here are complaining about.
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post #15858 of 16739 Old 01-13-2017, 08:52 AM
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I kind of feel your pain. But I'm curious how you'd handle it, if you were a hardware manufacturer? Features & upgrades are being worked on continuously, and ready at differing times. Would you just ship it with stuff that's not finished yet? Or hold it back, until everything was complete, and have nothing new to offer in the interim?



That doesn't sound like the sync-issue I've read about here. That is a problem that is evidenced when you switch to a different source, or a different input rez or frame rate. Things go dark then, while the PJ handshakes with the device, negotiating both the HDMI and HDCP characteristics. This happens with any digital device, but usually takes only a few seconds. While on the JVCs it is a loooong time. I suspect it has something to do with the newer HDCP2.2, or the 18Gbit/s data link. Or both.

I think what you're referring to is syncing on the 3D glasses, which isn't what folks here are complaining about.
Sorry, by sync I was talking about 3D glasses, responding to your comments . Sync times from source to RS600 I own is horrible. Getting use to it though . My VW600 was worst than this . Not sync up times though, it was the waiting period from the time the on button was pushed until the light stablized enough to make viewing watchable. Would be every bit of 20 minutes so I just learned to turn it on early enough . My VW675 is a better, I think, haven't really had enough time to say one way or the other .

The other comment off topic anyway, as is this too I suppose.

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post #15859 of 16739 Old 01-13-2017, 08:54 AM
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/Runco-D-73d-...s/222366316193

only 5K on ebay. I don't think these have every been reviewed or feedback from an owner.

Light output was low, curious how it looked though with this stacked setup.

Light Output in 3D Mode CSMS Specifications: Home Theater Calibration: 450 ANSI Lumens; 29 Foot-Lamberts (fL); 700
ANSI Lumens: (uncalibrated); Light output will drop less than 10% over the life of the product.

SOLD. Well, removed anyway .Looks like a PITA to me .

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post #15860 of 16739 Old 01-13-2017, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post
Well I have seen it working with the Dynamic dimming and the dynamic dimming did not really work well unfortunately.

Of course there is hope that they improved on that over christmas. They better did, because without it the black level just does not make it...
I'm amazed they allowed any units to be viewed until they had a finished product . At his point I cannot see any major shifts happening. Improvements and tweaks yes, but a major change at this point
would surprise me.

I've heard may great things about the image from the pre production units viewed , obviously JVC anticipated something close to this long ago OR there's going to be some interesting developments
at the 11 hour. Hope they pull it off.

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post #15861 of 16739 Old 01-13-2017, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
They spent hours trying to get the blend zone to look as good as possible and it still didn't turn out all that great. As for the quad JVC setup, it's just a pipe dream. I doubt anyone will attempt it.
Part of that was the projectors, but a lot had to do with blending.

I am not sure why you would think blending is an easy solution. I was at VDC about six years ago and they spent like two days setting up a digital blend. They said it was a huge PIA. Who knows how long it would last before needing a touch up.

If someone needed the light output, then stacking would be a better option. Of course that has its issues as well.

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post #15862 of 16739 Old 01-13-2017, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post
Part of that was the projectors, but a lot had to do with blending.

I am not sure why you would think blending is an easy solution. I was at VDC about six years ago and they spent like two days setting up a digital blend. They said it was a huge PIA. Who knows how long it would last before needing a touch up.

If someone needed the light output, then stacking would be a better option. Of course that has its issues as well.
They were actually there too setting it up for days. I meant on the day I was there they spent several hours more still to try and get it to look proper.
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post #15863 of 16739 Old 01-13-2017, 10:04 AM
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They were actually there too setting it up for days. I meant on the day I was there they spent several hours more still to try and get it to look proper.
Ergo blending isn't easy.

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post #15864 of 16739 Old 01-13-2017, 10:23 AM
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The world is moving in the direction of HDR and we are going to have to start looking at what it takes to do a decent job with HDR in the front projection world.
No real argument there.

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At some point all those stripping out HDR are going to have to switch over. The question is more like when, as in when will the hardware be better at presenting HDR.
I'm not sure if you meant it exactly as you wrote it, but I don't agree with this at all. I don't think there is anything mandatory about it... especially for front projection. As in, ever.

However, if you meant at some point things with HDR will improve to the point where many folks will want to switch over, then that is definitely a possibility.
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post #15865 of 16739 Old 01-13-2017, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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No real argument there.

I'm not sure if you meant it exactly as you wrote it, but I don't agree with this at all. I don't think there is anything mandatory about it... especially for front projection. As in, ever.

However, if you meant at some point things with HDR will improve to the point where many folks will want to switch over, then that is definitely a possibility.
The release of HDR with the front projectors is a bit of a 3 ring circus. read the issues in the 5040/6040 threads - major light loss with the filter and the limited bandwidth chipset isn't helping. Then the 4K Sony threads, add a new model with an HDR slider, that will solve the problem...! and the JVC threads which deserves kudos because no other group has done a deeper dive into HDR tuning but much of it will still be an issue for those not willing to go down the rabbit hole.

still in the end the lack of HDR10 metadata and variances between studios is a cluster as the term goes. At least we have some interim solutions like the HDFury/UB900 combo and whatever Oppo comes up once they are done tuning their new player.

and people complained about 3D...
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post #15866 of 16739 Old 01-13-2017, 11:17 AM
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No real argument there.



I'm not sure if you meant it exactly as you wrote it, but I don't agree with this at all. I don't think there is anything mandatory about it... especially for front projection. As in, ever.

However, if you meant at some point things with HDR will improve to the point where many folks will want to switch over, then that is definitely a possibility.
I mean as in most of us want the best image that we can get for our money. As HDR for front projectors evolves to the point that it is much closer to what we get with a TV, I think most of us will be wanting that in our theaters. I think the only question is when will this be possible. While as of today, it looks like HDR is never going to work very well with front projection, I think that will change in the future.
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post #15867 of 16739 Old 01-13-2017, 11:18 AM
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and people complained about 3D...
How easy that was....Haha. This stuff makes the 3d gripes of yore look like a kindergarten schoolyard scuffle.

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post #15868 of 16739 Old 01-13-2017, 11:33 AM
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Have you ever totally zoomed your RS500 in so the frame is tiny on your screen? I did this the other day when I was measuring my contrast, and I was pretty surprised to see SIGNIFICANT light bleeding WAY outside the outer edge of the image.

I am not talking about just a halo bar around the frame a few inches, I'm talking huge light bleed bars about 30% further outside the frame of the picture. No matter which Iris position, they still were there, and its coming from well inside the lense,
Even though my RS400 is back in it's box for now (waiting on a room), this is something I noticed as well, while I was performing initial testing. My purpose was to check out how variable-sized images looked in a CIA configuration, and the light bleed bars seemed like a real anomaly. From what I was seeing, it would mandate corresponding masking to eliminate them. And to be clear, I'm not talking about masking any letterbox or pillarbox areas within the resized 16:9 frame. I mean the area outside that box, once the active image has been shrunken down. I really wasn't expecting this, and was unsure if it might just be my specific unit.

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...since I stood in the patch of one of these light bleeds and looked back into the lens and moved my head from side to side, and sure enough it got brighter and darker as I did it, so I am not sure what this could be. Its quite alarming. JVC really need to sort out the internal reflections and light bleed.
I didn't do this, but I was testing on a blank white wall, and just moved my hand around the periphery. So not as illuminating a test as you performed.

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This would make any stacking and edge matching impossible, would totally destroy your ANSI contrast it was that bad.
I think this is a consideration very few are aware of at this point. I don't recall anyone besides yourself ever mentioning this before. Presumably because it's simply not a factor for most people. But for me it seemed to indicate that adaptive/variable masking would be a requirement for a CIA configuration (not simply a bonus, or improvement). I was kind of hoping I was overlooking something*, but your comments tend to confirm my initial observations.

[* mostly because no one actually doing a CIA/VIS setup, such as @R Harkness for example, had ever commented on this. Granted, he does have variable masking, and likely always utilizes it.]
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post #15869 of 16739 Old 01-13-2017, 01:03 PM
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Do you think that could be one of the reasons that the firmware was beta and why JVC never demoed the projector with dynamic dimming until Sunday at CES? The only time here in the US, that an RS4500 was shown with final firmware, maybe I should say shipping firmware, was Sunday at CES. That firmware did not exist earlier, so I do not see how any other viewing could have shown the dynamic dimming working properly. It may still need work, I do not know, but I will be able to see for myself soon.
I think this is all pure speculation.

The Laser Dimming was definately implemented before (like I said it was activated here in Germany) but suffered the typical sideeffects. We will see if they really optimized that for the shipping firmware or not.
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post #15870 of 16739 Old 01-13-2017, 01:07 PM
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I think this is all pure speculation.

The Laser Dimming was definately implemented before (like I said it was activated here in Germany) but suffered the typical sideeffects. We will see if they really optimized that for the shipping firmware or not.
None of what I posted was speculation. When I say JVC, I am referring to JVC here in the US. I have no idea, what JVC did outside of the US. I was not at CES, so I have not seen the RS4500 with the dynamic dimming, so I can't comment on if it is good or bad. I just know that Sunday was the only day that they used it.

Added
I never said the laser dimming was not in the projector. It was there, but it was not close to working correctly, so JVC here in the US, never used it for any of the shows, except for Sunday at CES.

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