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post #16171 of 16184 Unread 02-20-2017, 04:52 PM
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We had one as well...the RCA 50" version. Everyone including our neighbors were in awe when we got it. I still remember watching Star Wars on VHS with it...amazing experience at the time!

Yeah I remember the first time I saw one of these was in an electronics store window at the mall and it was playing Star Wars on LaserDisc. I was blown away and couldn't stop staring at it, although you had to be right in the middle of the concave silver high gain screen to really appreciate it!

Then my rich uncle in GA got one and we were so jealous, haha!
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post #16172 of 16184 Unread 02-20-2017, 06:51 PM
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Was just looking at the specs on the Epson LS10500 and they have the contrast rated at " Absolute Black". I assume this is in full black out scenes, so what is the actual measured CR and what is the future potential for this style of Epson. I go through so many bulbs with my JVC that these Epsons seem really appealing. Just not sure how much of a trade off there is CR wise.

I guess I am wondering What will come first , $10 000 laser JVC or epson Laser with 100 00 native CR.

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post #16173 of 16184 Unread Yesterday, 06:11 AM
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The Epson lasers can do around 75k:1 to 140k:1 at D65 depending on zoom and lens iris position (so can match JVCs native dynamically, but JVC can increase theirs tenfold with their DI). It's pretty good but the JVCs can go darker, at the expense of crushing 17 (The Epson is a little better there but not perfect either IMHO). The laser dimming works very well with no issues in any torture scenes I have seen that the JVCs tend to suffer from pumping from. Also, no image noise or bright corners. The full fade to black works very well with no issues IMHO, though some people say they don't like the way it comes out of black. I can't say I've ever seen a problem with it, so I assume it was an earlier firmware version they saw. Once set up and calibrated, you don't have to worry about lumen loss or having to recalibrate. No gamma droop or having to use a colorimiter to fix it it with proprietary software. JVCs have less limitations with there chipsets (full 18g I believe) so they are more flexible in that regard. If it's just for movies, it's less of an issue with the Epson. And of course, no lamp changes which depending on usage can be a nice saving if you use the pj enough to need to do that.

Both do a similar and reasonable job with HDR as projectors go if you want it (the older LS10000 can not do HDR and needs a wrkaround for WCG).

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post #16174 of 16184 Unread Yesterday, 07:06 AM - Thread Starter
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The JVC's (2016/2017 models) are going to have more lumen output with HDR/BT2020, that is one of the limiting factors of the Epson.

Ideally they would up the laser output to at least 1800+ lumens if there is ever an LS11K released.

There are substantial gains being made with HDR on the JVC's with the custom curves. Epson and Sony should have equivalent auto-cal software for their products.
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post #16175 of 16184 Unread Yesterday, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
The Epson lasers can do around 75k:1 to 140k:1 at D65 depending on zoom and lens iris position (so can match JVCs native dynamically, but JVC can increase theirs tenfold with their DI).
You're talking dynamic contrast right? Because Cine4home got a max of 28,000:1 native contrast when they tested the LS10000. My RS600 does over 100,000:1 in my theater (theoretically it's like 160,000:1), native.

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It's pretty good but the JVCs can go darker, at the expense of crushing 17 (The Epson is a little better there but not perfect either IMHO). The laser dimming works very well with no issues in any torture scenes I have seen that the JVCs tend to suffer from pumping from. Also, no image noise or bright corners. The full fade to black works very well with no issues IMHO, though some people say they don't like the way it comes out of black. I can't say I've ever seen a problem with it, so I assume it was an earlier firmware version they saw. Once set up and calibrated, you don't have to worry about lumen loss or having to recalibrate. No gamma droop or having to use a colorimiter to fix it it with proprietary software. JVCs have less limitations with there chipsets (full 18g I believe) so they are more flexible in that regard. If it's just for movies, it's less of an issue with the Epson. And of course, no lamp changes which depending on usage can be a nice saving if you use the pj enough to need to do that.
I'd love to see Epson make some improvements for the next generation, namely in contrast, brightness and input capabilities, it sounds like a great machine. I think they need to if JVC brings out a laser machine, since the laser is really the only selling point of the Epson over the JVCs, especially now that JVC has low lag mode.

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Both do a similar and reasonable job with HDR as projectors go if you want it (the older LS10000 can not do HDR and needs a wrkaround for WCG).
It would be interesting to see some more up to date comparisons on that front. We've made huge strides with calibrating HDR on the RSx00's in the past 3 weeks. Custom gamma curves that follow the ST.2084 shape, with a nice roll off for highlights. HDFury Linker to disable the HDR detection and allow the DI to work, it's really transformed the HDR performance on the RSx00's (I don't think it's possible to overstate it).
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post #16176 of 16184 Unread Yesterday, 07:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

It would be interesting to see some more up to date comparisons on that front. We've made huge strides with calibrating HDR on the RSx00's in the past 3 weeks. Custom gamma curves that follow the ST.2084 shape, with a nice roll off for highlights. HDFury Linker to disable the HDR detection and allow the DI to work, it's really transformed the HDR performance on the RSx00's (I don't think it's possible to overstate it).
agreed, it can't be understated how big of a deal these recent discoveries are with the custom curves. With the Sony, you get the factory curve and slider for adjustments, this is a much more powerful option for HDR calibration.

it's now plausible that the RSx00 can outgun the RS4500 light output in full P3 mode since the JVC laser has a large loss of lumens with the filter engaged.
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post #16177 of 16184 Unread Yesterday, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
You're talking dynamic contrast right? Because Cine4home got a max of 28,000:1 native contrast when they tested the LS10000. .
There's the rub,I would be giving up a lot of native with my current JVC never mind an RS600. If Epson could even get to 80 000:1 I would be all over it.

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post #16178 of 16184 Unread Yesterday, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
You're talking dynamic contrast right? Because Cine4home got a max of 28,000:1 native contrast when they tested the LS10000. My RS600 does over 100,000:1 in my theater (theoretically it's like 160,000:1), native.
I was curious what the native contrast was like on my Sony VW60 - turns out it's "only" 7000:1, lol. Looks pretty good in my light controlled room but it's pretty likely that any current projector would have better blacks.

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post #16179 of 16184 Unread Yesterday, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
The Epson lasers can do around 75k:1 to 140k:1 at D65 depending on zoom and lens iris position (so can match JVCs native dynamically, but JVC can increase theirs tenfold with their DI).
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
You're talking dynamic contrast right? Because Cine4home got a max of 28,000:1 native contrast when they tested the LS10000. My RS600 does over 100,000:1 in my theater (theoretically it's like 160,000:1), native.
Yes - I covered that in my post but I've put the key words into italic and bold so you can see that it's an accurate statement.

Edit - quoting automatically italicises anyway, but hopefully you can see that I said it matches JVCs native (contrast) dynamically, and see what I meant by that.

Epson has a 5x multiplier so the 28k native becomes 140k dynamic, which as I said, matches JVCs native. It works very well with no negatives so if people don't like the way JVCs auto iris works and switch it off, they will get very similar performance overall, though of course not all scenes get the best blacks depending on content so will not always match the JVC, and I've yet to see the dynamic laser stumble. JVC has a 10x multiplier so can provide far better contrast and black levels provided you set it up for that and don't mind crushing 17. Epson does that a little too. but not as much.

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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
I'd love to see Epson make some improvements for the next generation, namely in contrast, brightness and input capabilities, it sounds like a great machine. I think they need to if JVC brings out a laser machine, since the laser is really the only selling point of the Epson over the JVCs, especially now that JVC has low lag mode.
It is a great machine and does some things better than JVC that I find distracting, but contrast isn't one of them. The full fade to black works well though. I'd like to see JVC fix some things and I think adding a laser will help there as long as they can do it as well or better than Epson. If they had a laser in the current range at similar price points with the current contrast capability plus FFTB, they'd clean up entirely.

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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
It would be interesting to see some more up to date comparisons on that front. We've made huge strides with calibrating HDR on the RSx00's in the past 3 weeks. Custom gamma curves that follow the ST.2084 shape, with a nice roll off for highlights. HDFury Linker to disable the HDR detection and allow the DI to work, it's really transformed the HDR performance on the RSx00's (I don't think it's possible to overstate it).
I've seen the RS600 in split screen with the LS10500, and HDR wise there's not much in it between them in standard form (didn't like Sony's earlier attempt). They both look unnatural with neon colours in the flames/clouds in Mad Max Fury Road for example and although you can tweak them, HDR doesn't add anything for me so I decided I don't need it. UHD, SDR and WCG will be just fine, and upscaled HD looks great when done well. I'll wait and see how things pan out, but I'm more than happy with what I have and nothing else out there ticks as many boxes for me right now.

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Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

I trust Gary Lightfoot more than James Cameron.

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post #16180 of 16184 Unread Yesterday, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
It is a great machine and does some things better than JVC that I find distracting, but contrast isn't one of them. The full fade to black works well though. I'd like to see JVC fix some things and I think adding a laser will help there as long as they can do it as well or better than Epson. If they had a laser in the current range at similar price points with the current contrast capability plus FFTB, they'd clean up entirely.
Personally, fade to black isn't the contrast I "chase", it's not where lacking contrast bothers me. What bothers me contrast wise is scenes where there's real content but black doesn't look black. I had that issue with my RS4910 (35k:1 native), the RS600 basically eliminated those issues.

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I've seen the RS600 in split screen with the LS10500, and HDR wise there's not much in it between them in standard form (didn't like Sony's earlier attempt). They both look unnatural with neon colours in the flames/clouds in Mad Max Fury Road for example and although you can tweak them, HDR doesn't add anything for me so I decided I don't need it. UHD, SDR and WCG will be just fine, and upscaled HD looks great when done well. I'll wait and see how things pan out, but I'm more than happy with what I have and nothing else out there ticks as many boxes for me right now.
Well the RS600 looks pretty terrible in HDR with Gamma D. Quite the contrary it looks great. And that's important because not every HDR source can convert HDR to SDR+WCG well, or at all.
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post #16181 of 16184 Unread Yesterday, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Personally, fade to black isn't the contrast I "chase", it's not where lacking contrast bothers me. What bothers me contrast wise is scenes where there's real content but black doesn't look black. I had that issue with my RS4910 (35k:1 native), the RS600 basically eliminated those issues.
Case in point.

This shot looks SPECTACULAR on my new X9500/RS620

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post #16182 of 16184 Unread Yesterday, 07:20 PM
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Personally, fade to black isn't the contrast I "chase", it's not where lacking contrast bothers me. What bothers me contrast wise is scenes where there's real content but black doesn't look black. I had that issue with my RS4910 (35k:1 native), the RS600 basically eliminated those issues.
Same here, plus I dont chase contrast over everything else even though it is important - if there are things that distract and take me out of the movie, that can ruin everything.

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Well the RS600 looks pretty terrible in HDR with Gamma D. Quite the contrary it looks great. And that's important because not every HDR source can convert HDR to SDR+WCG well, or at all.
So it can be a lose lose situation which is a shame. There seems to be too many visible issues with it that need ironing out. I'm sure it will get there in the end though and then I might be interested.

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post #16183 of 16184 Unread Yesterday, 08:38 PM
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Same here, plus I dont chase contrast over everything else even though it is important - if there are things that distract and take me out of the movie, that can ruin everything.
Exactly my philosophy. There's only a few projectors out there that have native contrast performance where I think it's never distracting or at the point where you watch a movie and not think once where you felt like something was missing or didn't quite look right. That's why I keep coming back to JVCs. Sure it may not be the best in other aspects but the areas in which its not class leading don't stick out visually as something missing or distracting. But contrast is one area that's a make it or break it for me (and many others) and can take you out of the film if the performance isn't there. And the JVC never disappoints.
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post #16184 of 16184 Unread Today, 05:37 AM
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Same here, plus I dont chase contrast over everything else even though it is important - if there are things that distract and take me out of the movie, that can ruin everything.
Definitely, though for probably the past 10-15 years, the primary thing that can take me out of a movie is lack of contrast. Everything else is generally pretty good on modern projectors. My screen's not terribly big, so brightness has been fine. Colors and sharpness have been satisfying since 1080p projectors came out. Motion's never really bothered me (and I can't stand FI so issues with that don't affect me). The DI's have been great on my Planar 8150, RS4910 and RS600. But up until my RS600, contrast is basically what I upgraded for every time.

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So it can be a lose lose situation which is a shame. There seems to be too many visible issues with it that need ironing out. I'm sure it will get there in the end though and then I might be interested.
Frankly I think we're there, at least quality wise. HDR on an RSxx0 with a custom curve and the linker stripping the HDR flag to retain the DI looks great. It's unfortunate that the manufactures haven't been able to do what a couple enthusiasts in their basements have, but props to JVC for providing the Autocal software and ability to create custom Gamma curves which allows this.

Now we just need manufacturers to implement Arve's tool in their next generation so we don't have to rely on external devices/software.
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