Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 541 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #16201 of 16448 Old 03-03-2017, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
The business class contrast makes then DOA for my interest. This isn't Epson/Sony native vs. JVC, it's abysmal native that shouldn't be a topic of conversation for a HT projector in 2017.

plus the manual lens controls, lack of 3D (bummer for DLP - king of no x-talk!) , no HDR on some models, etc. These all seem like alpha/beta products just to see what sticks when consumers see UHD / 4K label on the package.

the Epson laser is a nice projector, I just calibrated another one recently. there are 2 reasons it doesn't work for my room. it has more x-talk in 3D than my RS600. This won't matter to most folks but I still like 3D. Lumen output for HDR. With the new JVC HDR curves recently + restored DI in HDR, the JVC provides a better HDR experience and is brighter. I also think UHD material appears sharper with JVC's implementation of e-shift but this isn't day / night, just something to see when comparing both models.

An LS11K with 1800+ lumens would be great. not sure if they are going to continue this line. Are they selling well world-wide? Any rumors of a follow up to the 10500?
How is 3d flicker on the Epson laser? After watching a DLP for 3d the last 4 years, the JVC 520 3d flicker is a rough thing to get used to.

I'm also becoming more annoyed with the JVC 2D flicker as time goes on. Does the Epson with its laser provide a more stable/solid image inn this area?
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post #16202 of 16448 Old 03-03-2017, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post
How is 3d flicker on the Epson laser? After watching a DLP for 3d the last 4 years, the JVC 520 3d flicker is a rough thing to get used to.

I'm also becoming more annoyed with the JVC 2D flicker as time goes on. Does the Epson with its laser provide a more stable/solid image inn this area?

Todd hi, it's a wash between all the non-DLP's. if you're sensitive to the JVC 3D flicker you will see it on all of them. the DLP refresh is much higher than any of the other competing panel tech.

I've mostly tuned it out as I find it reduces after the 15 min warmup in 3D mode with the glasses activated as well but none will be as rock solid as the 3D DLP's.


It looks like 3D is dead for the foreseeable future of DLP which is a shame because it can be excellent with the right 3D DLP projector. The Sharp 30K was the under 10K 3D DLP goldilocks projector for me. better native than the cheap 3D DLP's, full auto lens controls, IR vs DLP link on the BQ W7000/W7500, working DI in 3D + the best 3D glasses out there. I still use this projector all the time even though it's now 5 years old.

nice 'stack' !!


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post #16203 of 16448 Old 03-03-2017, 12:19 PM
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The LS projectors are good projectors. My complaint on them is: jump in iris when coming out of fade to black, Not enough light output and can't do vertical stretch for 4K content. The last one is the biggie for me, but would not matter for most people.
Can it do vertical stretch if you have the player convert 1080p to 4k? I don't know if the projector "knows" it's getting real 4k vs upscaled 4k

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post #16204 of 16448 Old 03-03-2017, 12:25 PM
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Can it do vertical stretch if you have the player convert 1080p to 4k? I don't know if the projector "knows" it's getting real 4k vs upscaled 4k
No. You have to use another device, like AVR, prepro, Oppo 203 or Lumagen. This only matters, if you use an A-lens.

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post #16205 of 16448 Old 03-03-2017, 12:42 PM
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I see. I have an A-lens and will probably get the Oppo. I understand from another of your posts that there are some movies that it doesn't work for on the Oppo

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post #16206 of 16448 Old 03-03-2017, 01:29 PM
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I've been very hard on them, but that's mainly because I'm so disappointed that they bring nothing new to the table, other than resolution, that high end DLPs had 10 years ago, in fact, but all accounts they're a significant step down.

My Planar 8150 is probably my favorite projector, even though my RS600 throws a better picture. My Planar just never did anything wrong, not that wasn't expected based on it's performance limitations. I'd love a good 4K (even pseudo 4K) DLP, but not if it can't remotely compete on contrast, especially not if it can't even come close to matching my 10 year old Planar.

It's really disappointing that TI's had a decade for development and they've basically taken a step backwards. If the 4K DLPs were in the 5-10k:1 native contrast with a real, honest 50k:1 dynamic, I'd probably be interested in checking them out.
Like you, I can remember the days when DLP was the the contrast king for both sequential an ANSI, but as you say, it's disappointing that they haven't improved it since then.

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post #16207 of 16448 Old 03-03-2017, 02:24 PM
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I see. I have an A-lens and will probably get the Oppo. I understand from another of your posts that there are some movies that it doesn't work for on the Oppo
There may be some. If in th manufacture of the disc, they do not check the box, that allows vertical stretch, then it is a problem. In the past, every now and then you would come across a movie that it could not stretch. Also if you stream and 4K movies that you need to stretch, then the Oppo will not help you.

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post #16208 of 16448 Old 03-03-2017, 02:37 PM
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I see. I have an A-lens and will probably get the Oppo. I understand from another of your posts that there are some movies that it doesn't work for on the Oppo
There may be some. If in th manufacture of the disc, they do not check the box, that allows vertical stretch, then it is a problem. In the past, every now and then you would come across a movie that it could not stretch. Also if you stream and 4K movies that you need to stretch, then the Oppo will not help you.
I see. I don't plan on streaming but if I do and it's a problem I will just zoom! BTW, I hope I get the call from you soon with some good news!
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post #16209 of 16448 Old 03-03-2017, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Todd hi, it's a wash between all the non-DLP's. if you're sensitive to the JVC 3D flicker you will see it on all of them. the DLP refresh is much higher than any of the other competing panel tech.

I've mostly tuned it out as I find it reduces after the 15 min warmup in 3D mode with the glasses activated as well but none will be as rock solid as the 3D DLP's.


It looks like 3D is dead for the foreseeable future of DLP which is a shame because it can be excellent with the right 3D DLP projector. The Sharp 30K was the under 10K 3D DLP goldilocks projector for me. better native than the cheap 3D DLP's, full auto lens controls, IR vs DLP link on the BQ W7000/W7500, working DI in 3D + the best 3D glasses out there. I still use this projector all the time even though it's now 5 years old.

nice 'stack' !!


You do have quite the nice stack there my friend!
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post #16210 of 16448 Old 03-05-2017, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Todd hi, it's a wash between all the non-DLP's. if you're sensitive to the JVC 3D flicker you will see it on all of them. the DLP refresh is much higher than any of the other competing panel tech.

I've mostly tuned it out as I find it reduces after the 15 min warmup in 3D mode with the glasses activated as well but none will be as rock solid as the 3D DLP's.


It looks like 3D is dead for the foreseeable future of DLP which is a shame because it can be excellent with the right 3D DLP projector. The Sharp 30K was the under 10K 3D DLP goldilocks projector for me. better native than the cheap 3D DLP's, full auto lens controls, IR vs DLP link on the BQ W7000/W7500, working DI in 3D + the best 3D glasses out there. I still use this projector all the time even though it's now 5 years old.
This is why I've been following this thread for a while, occasionally someone drops a gem in here, something that "everyone knows" except for those of us who don't...

I've been debating my next upgrade for a few years now, I bought an Optoma HD30 as a cheapy stop gap until LED or Laser sorted itself out when the HD91 turned out to be a lemon.

On paper the Epson 10500 appears ideal and I'm going to try to get a demo in the next few weeks, hopefully against the JVC 520 (or whatever it's called in Europe).

This comment may be deeply significant to me, I saw the JVC eshift when it launched and walked out of the demo due to flicker and judder. One of the sales guys wanted to know why I walked out and they demoed the projector again just for me with the eshift turned off, which was slightly improved but still terrible. So I'm sceptical that things have improved enough for me to be happy with a JVC but there's so much positive chat around here about them I think it's time for a second chance.

I also walked out of an Epson demo and haven't been near an LCD projector (apart from powerpoint for work and stills at the local camera club) since.

The more I see in the last few years of home cinema the more time I spend on ebay looking for old DLP projectors!

Thanks for being brutally honest, it's truly valuable information.
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post #16211 of 16448 Old 03-05-2017, 05:38 AM
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The Epson laser is R-LCD, so is more like JVCs DiLA and Sony's SXRD. They use Quartz and not Silicon, so they'e tech is sometimes referred to as LCoQ IIRC.

I too have never considered LCD due to poor blacks, dust blobs, screen door, panel uniformity etc as they just seem like poor performers and full of liabilities, so stuck with DLP, but the Epson lasers are not using the same tech. That's not to say they don't or won't have issues as they're new compared to JVC etc, but I think they're worth a look if you don't think the JVCs are for you. You may even be surprised by the new LCDs with eshift from Epson, but they are still LCD so can suffer from dust blobs etc, and screen door may be visible if you don't use the eshift.
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Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

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post #16212 of 16448 Old 03-05-2017, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
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This is why I've been following this thread for a while, occasionally someone drops a gem in here, something that "everyone knows" except for those of us who don't...

I've been debating my next upgrade for a few years now, I bought an Optoma HD30 as a cheapy stop gap until LED or Laser sorted itself out when the HD91 turned out to be a lemon.

On paper the Epson 10500 appears ideal and I'm going to try to get a demo in the next few weeks, hopefully against the JVC 520 (or whatever it's called in Europe).

This comment may be deeply significant to me, I saw the JVC eshift when it launched and walked out of the demo due to flicker and judder. One of the sales guys wanted to know why I walked out and they demoed the projector again just for me with the eshift turned off, which was slightly improved but still terrible. So I'm sceptical that things have improved enough for me to be happy with a JVC but there's so much positive chat around here about them I think it's time for a second chance.

I also walked out of an Epson demo and haven't been near an LCD projector (apart from powerpoint for work and stills at the local camera club) since.

The more I see in the last few years of home cinema the more time I spend on ebay looking for old DLP projectors!

Thanks for being brutally honest, it's truly valuable information.

Hi, to be more clear, I was referring to 3D specifically when comparing the DLP and non DLP's. I'm very sensitive to flicker (old CRT's @ 60hz, florescent lighting, etc) and don't have any issues with 4th gen e-shift with UHD content. I usually leave it off when watching 1080P sources.

If you have a preference for DLP, it may be worth pursuing a used Sim2 on ebay. I like DLP as well (Sharp 30K 3D DLP + DC4 .95 Planar) but these new models have zero interest for me without 3D and especially the business class native contrast which almost look like typo's if we didn't already see several trusted sources providing contrast #'s. It seems they made some kind of design mistake with this chipset, how did they go so far backwards vs. the good DLP's from 10 years ago?

As we all have different perspectives and preferences, it's good if you have the opportunity to see the Epson and JVC in person.


ps., yes the HD91 was unfortunately not a great projector if we're being nice.
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post #16213 of 16448 Old 03-06-2017, 02:05 AM
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The Epson laser is R-LCD, so is more like JVCs DiLA and Sony's SXRD. They use Quartz and not Silicon, so they'e tech is sometimes referred to as LCoQ IIRC.

I too have never considered LCD due to poor blacks, dust blobs, screen door, panel uniformity etc as they just seem like poor performers and full of liabilities, so stuck with DLP, but the Epson lasers are not using the same tech. That's not to say they don't or won't have issues as they're new compared to JVC etc, but I think they're worth a look if you don't think the JVCs are for you. You may even be surprised by the new LCDs with eshift from Epson, but they are still LCD so can suffer from dust blobs etc, and screen door may be visible if you don't use the eshift.
Thanks for the clarification, I know that the Epson LS10000 & 10500 is R-LCD and that's a huge part of considering looking at them again. However much like the LCD/LCD+LED differences in flat panels I don't really consider them to be different technologies, more of a refinement than something fundamentally different.

I do prefer the refresh look of DLP (and therefore Plasma) but very few manufacturers seem interested in making good home cinema DLPs, those that do are a little out of my price range.
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post #16214 of 16448 Old 03-06-2017, 02:26 AM
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Hi, to be more clear, I was referring to 3D specifically when comparing the DLP and non DLP's. I'm very sensitive to flicker (old CRT's @ 60hz, florescent lighting, etc) and don't have any issues with 4th gen e-shift with UHD content. I usually leave it off when watching 1080P sources.

If you have a preference for DLP, it may be worth pursuing a used Sim2 on ebay. I like DLP as well (Sharp 30K 3D DLP + DC4 .95 Planar) but these new models have zero interest for me without 3D and especially the business class native contrast which almost look like typo's if we didn't already see several trusted sources providing contrast #'s. It seems they made some kind of design mistake with this chipset, how did they go so far backwards vs. the good DLP's from 10 years ago?

As we all have different perspectives and preferences, it's good if you have the opportunity to see the Epson and JVC in person.


ps., yes the HD91 was unfortunately not a great projector if we're being nice.
I do scour the usual places for second hand high end DLPs, a friend in Boston (US) has a Sharp 30000 and even in the terrible room he has it looks great but these are unheard of in Europe. Seems to be a similar situation for the Planar 8150 here too.

Maybe 4k will tempt a few wealthy European Sim2 owners to "upgrade" and there will be a few around to choose from at ok prices. These at least we do see in Europe.

We are big 3D fans here too so need to get something "good enough" while 3D is still a thing. The HD30 is ok I guess but unable to do CIH even manually, focus is poor, black level mediocre, can't hit rec709 blue and quite noisy. I did try to find some additional ZF2100 glasses recently and haven't located any yet, I'd rather not get an alternative as 3D is calibrated through these, using my set of course.

I often look at 3D performance as an indicator of a projector or other displays ability to refresh fast enough, if it can manage crosstalk free 3D it's going to be good enough in 2D to keep up with 50p & 60p material and definitely 24p without artefacts.

If there's no other legacy of 3D in years to come at least it gave the LCD flat panel manufacturers a kick up the backside to sort out their panel refresh times.

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post #16215 of 16448 Old 03-06-2017, 03:11 AM
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I still like DLP and the cleaner look it has, it's just a shame TI has stood still for the past 10 years. The LCD based techs have move on in some regards, but at least they have advanced. A good DLP with around 10k:1 or more native CR and a decent (invisible) dynamic iris or laser to give 50K+ may put them back in the ball park (25k native + laser like the Epson would be a great machine IMHO), but we'll have to wait and see. I'm one of the lucky ones that was never troubled by rainbows and back in the day it was the only tech I'd consider.

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Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

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post #16216 of 16448 Old 03-06-2017, 03:30 AM
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I still like DLP and the cleaner look it has, it's just a shame TI has stood still for the past 10 years. The LCD based techs have move on in some regards, but at least they have advanced. A good DLP with around 10k:1 or more native CR and a decent (invisible) dynamic iris or laser to give 50K+ may put them back in the ball park (25k native + laser like the Epson would be a great machine IMHO), but we'll have to wait and see. I'm one of the lucky ones that was never troubled by rainbows and back in the day it was the only tech I'd consider.
Well I just found two Sharp Z30000's, supposedly last remaining units of new stock, from a UK retailer supposedly with a years warranty, so I ordered one...

If Zombie10k's comments over the years about this projector are anywhere near and I'm sure they are I think I'm going to be quite happy with it. Of course this could all be a scam so I've used a credit card that I trust and crossed all available fingers. Looks like this thread prompted me to go looking at the right time, these projectors were advertised two days ago.

I'll revisit 4k projectors in a few years, after you guys have sorted the good from the bad... :-)
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post #16217 of 16448 Old 03-06-2017, 06:48 AM
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I know it's the same in Europe, so I'm pretty sure it would be the same in NZ.
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Well I just found two Sharp Z30000's, supposedly last remaining units of new stock, from a UK retailer supposedly with a years warranty, so I ordered one...

If Zombie10k's comments over the years about this projector are anywhere near and I'm sure they are I think I'm going to be quite happy with it. Of course this could all be a scam so I've used a credit card that I trust and crossed all available fingers. Looks like this thread prompted me to go looking at the right time, these projectors were advertised two days ago.

I'll revisit 4k projectors in a few years, after you guys have sorted the good from the bad... :-)
There is almost a "cult" following for the Z30K. We still enjoy ours almost every day...
Post back with your thoughts after you get yours set up.
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post #16218 of 16448 Old 03-06-2017, 07:12 AM
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There is almost a "cult" following for the Z30K. We still enjoy ours almost every day...
Post back with your thoughts after you get yours set up.
Will do.

Do you or anyone else know if it is double or triple flash for 3D, do I need 120Hz or 144Hz glasses? I may try my ZF2100's from the HD30 with their RF transmitter, they are 144Hz so should be fine, cable is different but I'm sure I can work that bit out.
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post #16219 of 16448 Old 03-06-2017, 09:38 AM
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A good DLP with around 10k:1 or more native CR and a decent (invisible) dynamic iris or laser to give 50K+ may put them back in the ball park
That would be right in the ballpark of the RS4500 which is getting such great reviews from owners.
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Thanks for the clarification, I know that the Epson LS10000 & 10500 is R-LCD and that's a huge part of considering looking at them again. However much like the LCD/LCD+LED differences in flat panels I don't really consider them to be different technologies, more of a refinement than something fundamentally different.

I do prefer the refresh look of DLP (and therefore Plasma) but very few manufacturers seem interested in making good home cinema DLPs, those that do are a little out of my price range.
I'm also generally bothered by flicker and while the JVCs certainly aren't perfect I'm not distracted by any noticeable flicker with 1080p sources or 4K via EShift.
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post #16221 of 16448 Old 03-06-2017, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
I still like DLP and the cleaner look it has, it's just a shame TI has stood still for the past 10 years. The LCD based techs have move on in some regards, but at least they have advanced. A good DLP with around 10k:1 or more native CR and a decent (invisible) dynamic iris or laser to give 50K+ may put them back in the ball park (25k native + laser like the Epson would be a great machine IMHO), but we'll have to wait and see. I'm one of the lucky ones that was never troubled by rainbows and back in the day it was the only tech I'd consider.
The more I watch my RS4500, the more the picture strikes me as being " DLP like ". I say that after having owned a Lumis for 7 years. You have just described the RS4500 as far as it looks in my room on my 128" diagonal 2.35:1 Stewart ST 130 G3 screen. Gravity even looked good after having owned the RS600 ( hard act to follow ). And I must say, Avatar upscaled on the Panasonic UB900 blew people away yesterday during my demo. The Blu Ray just about looks like 4K as it is ! " Clean, clear and crisp " is how I'd describe the picture, especially with small detail.

Which reminds me - time to re - watch Gladiator upscaled to 4K on my RS4500 ! That's a great Blu Ray transfer ( the re - mastered disc ), and I'll bet it looks even better on this projector.
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post #16222 of 16448 Old 03-06-2017, 03:29 PM
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I'm of the same opinion of my Epson laser - nice clean and noise free image, and I'm enjoying all my old movies again, along with Atmos. Some movies I've not seen since I last watched them on DVD so those I don't have on BD I'm purchasing and watching again - thanks for reminding me about Galdiator, which also made me think about Saving Private Ryan as well. Just finished watching Blackhawk Down earlier, and Enter the Dragon (disappointing transfer but nostalgic all the same). I just have to remember to do the eating thing now and again
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Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

I trust Gary Lightfoot more than James Cameron.
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post #16223 of 16448 Old 03-06-2017, 03:51 PM
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And I must say, Avatar upscaled on the Panasonic UB900 blew people away yesterday during my demo. The Blu Ray just about looks like 4K as it is ! " Clean, clear and crisp " is how I'd describe the picture, especially with small detail.
Out of curiosity are you using any sharpening on the Panny? Apparently it's sharpness setting is a pretty good?
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post #16224 of 16448 Old 03-06-2017, 04:06 PM
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Out of curiosity are you using any sharpening on the Panny? Apparently it's sharpness setting is a pretty good?
I am for Blu Rays. Nothing for 4K Blu Rays. And for Blu Rays with lots of video noise, a little noise reduction in the Panny works wonders. With 3 user settings in the Panny ( one for Blu Ray without processing - most settings are grayed out ), you can have a 4K Blu Ray setting, a Blu Ray setting for discs needing some sharpening and noise reduction etc. ! The more I use the Panasonic UB900, the more I like it !
Good review here - http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...Qk0fwJo10xP.97

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post #16225 of 16448 Old 03-06-2017, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
I'm of the same opinion of my Epson laser - nice clean and noise free image, and I'm enjoying all my old movies again, along with Atmos. Some movies I've not seen since I last watched them on DVD so those I don't have on BD I'm purchasing and watching again - thanks for reminding me about Galdiator, which also made me think about Saving Private Ryan as well. Just finished watching Blackhawk Down earlier, and Enter the Dragon (disappointing transfer but nostalgic all the same). I just have to remember to do the eating thing now and again
I love Blackhawk Down - thanks for adding that to the list. It's going to be a busy year with my RS4500.

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post #16226 of 16448 Old 03-06-2017, 04:22 PM
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I think I'm in the same boat - talking of which, I'm going to need a bigger one and watch Jaws again this week, and then Planet of the Apes (Charlton Heston of course)!!

Looks like I picked the wrong time to give up work.... Airplane!! Gotta watch that again, it was incredible. The Incredibles!! My fave superhero film! Gotta watch that too!

Help!

Luckily I'm not Beatles movie fan so the extremely poor attempt at humour is stopping there for the moment
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Originally Posted by elmalloc
Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

I trust Gary Lightfoot more than James Cameron.
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post #16227 of 16448 Old 03-06-2017, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
I am for Blu Rays. Nothing for 4K Blu Rays. And for Blu Rays with lots of video noise, a little noise reduction in the Panny works wonders. With 3 user settings in the Panny ( one for Blu Ray without processing - most settings are grayed out ), you can have a 4K Blu Ray setting, a Blu Ray setting for discs needing some sharpening and noise reduction etc. ! The more I use the Panasonic UB900, the more I like it !
Good review here - http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...Qk0fwJo10xP.97
I'm glad I still kept mine. I'd ordered it first, and then ordered the Oppo thinking I'd sell the Panny. But with the way things have worked out, it looks like I'll be using the Panny. (At least at first).
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post #16228 of 16448 Old 03-06-2017, 05:42 PM
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I'm glad I still kept mine. I'd ordered it first, and then ordered the Oppo thinking I'd sell the Panny. But with the way things have worked out, it looks like I'll be using the Panny. (At least at first).
I have been an Oppo fan for years, but the Panny is a top shelf 4K / Blu Ray player for sure. I have no reason to use anything else right now.

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post #16229 of 16448 Old 03-06-2017, 06:05 PM
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The more I watch my RS4500, the more the picture strikes me as being " DLP like ". I say that after having owned a Lumis for 7 years. You have just described the RS4500 as far as it looks in my room on my 128" diagonal 2.35:1 Stewart ST 130 G3 screen. Gravity even looked good after having owned the RS600 ( hard act to follow ). And I must say, Avatar upscaled on the Panasonic UB900 blew people away yesterday during my demo. The Blu Ray just about looks like 4K as it is ! " Clean, clear and crisp " is how I'd describe the picture, especially with small detail.
You're killin' us man!
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post #16230 of 16448 Old 03-09-2017, 09:33 PM
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Found this while doing some late night browsing on the interwebs. I believe the "Shasta Lens Package" looks like Panamorph DCl's. With 2 of those and everything else included, seems like a good deal though dated in the specs.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Runco-3Dimen...YAAOSw4A5YrI0l
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