Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 574 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #17191 of 18182 Old 07-05-2017, 02:53 PM
 
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I suppose a good analogy and something to supplement the point I'm making in my post above would be if I was shopping for a car and had $60000 to spend, I might look at sales figures and see that a Toyota Camry and Honda Accord were selling like crazy. But if I'm after pure performance I'm not going to use that information knowing there's more performance to be had if I were to spend more.

In a way I feel you're trying to use these sales numbers to try and diminish how much better objectively these LCoS machines actually are.
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post #17192 of 18182 Old 07-05-2017, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
But what exactly are you saying here? What do you make of these sales figures? Do you equate any of it to image quality? The way I see it is that most people are not enthusiasts and care very little about having what's "best" and they're completely fine with having something that is "good enough" while paying far less for that product compared to what most enthusiasts would end up buying. Average Joe's are okay with having mediocre for a great price. But that's not the discussion we're trying to have here in this thread. We're all enthusiasts looking for the best. Please try and remember you're in the $3000+ subforum. We here aren't looking for "bang for the buck". We're okay with spending more if it means we're actually getting more. You aren't going to see people in this subforum buying these XPR models to use as their main projector. The performance is just not there. The sales numbers mean nothing. In what way, with regards to the enthusiast market, do sales numbers mean anything in the way of what product is objectively better?
Well here is the core of the argument.

I can be an enthusiast and not put highest contrast ratio as my #1 priority. Maybe I want resolution? Maybe I want uniformity? Maybe I want the best motion? Maybe I want laser or led? Maybe I think one tech requires less maintenance than the other? Maybe I can't stand dead pixels? Maybe I just like one technology better than another one?

One cannot define for another person what they personally find "better," and the fact that the majority of the top projector buyers appear to not prioritize contrast means that clearly there are a whole lot of people out there that don't value contrast that highly. So it is not that uncommon of a belief.

So it boils down to everyone understanding and accepting alternative viewpoints that may differ from one's own. I understand where those who make high contrast #1 are coming from, but to me it's just not that important to eclipse the rest of the projector's qualities.

There is no image quality preference checklist one must comply to be an enthusiast, other than being enthusiastic for the technology being discussed.
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post #17193 of 18182 Old 07-05-2017, 03:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
Well here is the core of the argument.

I can be an enthusiast and not put highest contrast ratio as my #1 priority. Maybe I want resolution? Maybe I want uniformity? Maybe I want the best motion? Maybe I want laser or led? Maybe I think one tech requires less maintenance than the other? Maybe I can't stand dead pixels? Maybe I just like one technology better than another one?

One cannot define for another person what they personally find "better," and the fact that the majority of the top projector buyers appear to not prioritize contrast means that clearly there are a whole lot of people out there that don't value contrast that highly. So it is not that uncommon of a belief.

So it boils down to everyone understanding and accepting alternative viewpoints that may differ from one's own. I understand where those who make high contrast #1 are coming from, but to me it's just not that important to eclipse the rest of the projector's qualities.

There is no image quality preference checklist one must comply to be an enthusiast, other than being enthusiastic for the technology being discussed.
You didn't really answer my questions. No one here is trying to say that an individual can't have their own set of priorities, but you're making it seem as if most people align themselves with your set of priorities and I think most of us here don't agree with that. If people really didn't care about contrast performance they wouldn't have even made OLED displays. They would have just kept selling LCD displays. LG and others realize that's what people want, which is why the premium priced units offer more contrast. That means that people are willing to pay more for what they want; contrast. Plain and simple.

If the difference between these XPR units and LCoS competition were closer I could see a good argument to give up some contrast performance to gain performance in another area like image sharpness. But we're talking about, literally, an order of magnitude or more contrast between these projectors. It's such a large difference where many don't find the compromise in contrast is enough to make up for extra sharpness you'd gain. That's why the enthusiasts are still buying 1080p+ eshift projectors. The extra contrast performance is worth more money than a small boost in fine detail rendering.

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post #17194 of 18182 Old 07-05-2017, 03:17 PM
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Madshi, I had a 24 megapixel Sony A7 which is, like, only 6K. For 8K or more we have to look for samples of cameras of 32 mp and higher. I've searched the web for Sony A7R II samples, which is a 42 megapixel camera, and here are some samples which can be used:
http://www.photographyblog.com/previ...4_70mm_photos/
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PROD...-iiGALLERY.HTM

I think this one could be used:
Looking for images from high MP cameras? From my 50 MP 5DsR (no AA filter) overcast day in Seattle- original pixels (an unscaled 4096x2160 crop from the centre of the image).
Full size is here



Cropped (only to adjust aspect ratio) to 40 MP, then re-sized. (The 3:2 Canon image is 50 MP; 16-35 IS f/4 @f/8 @28mm 1/320 ISO 200 - slightly softer in corners when viewing original pixels!)
Full size is here

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post #17195 of 18182 Old 07-05-2017, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
The odd part about it is that he's never even seen one in person, let alone the other projectors we're talking about that he's telling are worse off than the other one he's never seen.
I could never own it as "the only projector", but something like it could be ok for a secondary to replace my Benq w7000. However, before I do that, I really want a light canon as a secondary projector, something that can do halfway decent color at 2000+ lumens (not best mode, but decently good). I don't want to pay more than $1000 to replace the Benq though.

I don't think I've seen any decent DLP that can pump out 2000+ lumens like an Epson 5040, too bad. I'll keep waiting.

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post #17196 of 18182 Old 07-05-2017, 04:38 PM
 
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I could never own it as "the only projector", but something like it could be ok for a secondary to replace my Benq w7000. However, before I do that, I really want a light canon as a secondary projector, something that can do halfway decent color at 2000+ lumens (not best mode, but decently good). I don't want to pay more than $1000 to replace the Benq though.

I don't think I've seen any decent DLP that can pump out 2000+ lumens like an Epson 5040, too bad. I'll keep waiting.
What other requirements does it need to meet? What features are you looking to get from such a projector?
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post #17197 of 18182 Old 07-05-2017, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
What other requirements does it need to meet? What features are you looking to get from such a projector?
I don't know, 2500 or so decent color lumens, 3000:1 Native or higher, 3D, DLP, and hopefully 4k --- all for under $1000.

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post #17198 of 18182 Old 07-05-2017, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
What other requirements does it need to meet? What features are you looking to get from such a projector?
I don't know, 2500 or so decent color lumens, 3000:1 Native or higher, 3D, DLP, and hopefully 4k --- all for under $1000.
It's funny how DLPs are always the secondary projector. However, the projector you want might be a few years away. I would want the same thing, just with lasers. I'm hoping LG can do something no more than $1500
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post #17199 of 18182 Old 07-05-2017, 05:08 PM
 
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I don't know, 2500 or so decent color lumens, 3000:1 Native or higher, 3D, DLP, and hopefully 4k --- all for under $1000.
I don't know if we'll see a unit like that for that price. The only excpetion might be the used DLP market in a year or two when 1080p projectors sell for extremely dirt cheap. it will probably take longer for an XPR unit with that level of performance to hit that price point. I also see the 3000:1 native contrast ratio being a deal breaker. I don't know if it's possible with this DMD to reach that level of native contrast with that kind of lumen output, especially at this price point. It would require some pretty decent optical coatings to help with light scatter and I don't think that kind of optical performance can been done at or under $1000.
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post #17200 of 18182 Old 07-05-2017, 06:47 PM
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I just thought of something regarding this CTA 4K UHD requirement. Part of the requirement is that the projector has to project 8.3 million pixels. However, from Seegs picture of the UHD65:



we can see that the projector doesn't usually shift all the pixels. TI may qualify for the CTA requirement by doing a test pattern where all of the pixels are eShifted, but actual owners could use the projector for months and never have it display 8.3 million pixels for any video frame.

Why do I say that? Because pixels that aren't eShifted don't get to count twice, otherwise the JVCs with eShift off would be 8 million pixels based on the way that JVC displays different images for the exact same pixel, as was shown when I filmed one with a 1000 fps camera. If the pixel doesn't shift to a new location then it isn't a new pixel, it is still the same old pixel, just with different light levels (if even that).

While I think being able to shift just some pixels could be advantageous, it does mean that the average UHD65 will probably never display as many pixels as a native 4k chip, even if it could if you picked just the right test pattern. The test patterns that make eShift occur with every pixel might also be the patterns that turn the images into a complete mess.

Anybody who claims, "XPR projectors display 8.3 million pixels per frame" is claiming something that is almost always false, if they are like the UHD65. They may have the capability, but they probably rarely actually do it.

If some other company made a projector where there was a single test pattern where it would display 8.3 million pixels, but not for any real images, would people here still call it 4K UHD, just as long as it qualified by the CTA spec?

--Darin

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post #17201 of 18182 Old 07-05-2017, 10:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Zombie, Did you mean Leon "The Professional"? It's one of my all time favorite films. The (2015) 10 year anniversary Blu-ray edition has a great Atmos sound track. Also, some excellent commentary from the director and cast. For $10, it's a must have.

https://www.amazon.com/Professional-...=UTF8&qid=&sr=

BTW, where does the Sharp Z30K fall in your (purely contrast) projector hierarchy? With one iris activated and Darbee at HD 55%, the contrast on our HP 2.8 looks excellent. Plus the DLP image is tack Sharp (PJ humor)

hi, yes it was the 2015 release, it looks remarkable for BD. It sounds like the UHD is going to be a reference disk. I ordered this and the fifth element, both are released on 7/11.

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/item/l...sional-uhd-brd


The sharp native contrast is better than the majority of the .65 DLP's i've had here and has a convincing DI that works great in 3D mode. I originally had the BenQ W7000 for 3D but the contrast on this model is not very good and disliked the DLP link for 3D since it hurts contrast even further. The 3D on the Sharp is still impressive to see today.

my room is very tough on projectors with lower native contrast. The darker the room, the more this started standing out in lower APL scenes on the various projectors I have here. This is one of JVC's main attractions, it digs really deep into these scenes. -11 on the iris is 100K:1 and it looks great in a velvet room.

I still use the JVC for 3D as well, a movie like Underworld Blood Wars looks excellent on the JVC.

RS600, Sharp 30K stack, DC4 .95 Planar, I am good until at least... cedia 2018.
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post #17202 of 18182 Old 07-05-2017, 10:40 PM
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You care about the content but you don't care about how it looks when you watch it? Seems like kind of an odd position to take.
I care about it, but the film itself is #1 , by far. I don't watch contrast and sharpness, I watch the film and enjoy it. Not an odd position at all.

I don't buy a Sim2 or rs4500 because I can't wrap my head around buying a single piece of equipment for my entertainment that costs as much as my car. It seems like excess and almost selfish at some point, maybe over 5k-6k is that point for me.

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post #17203 of 18182 Old 07-05-2017, 10:42 PM
 
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I care about it, but the film itself is #1 , by far. I don't watch contrast and sharpness, I watch the film and enjoy it. Not an odd position at all.
See my edited post.
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post #17204 of 18182 Old 07-05-2017, 10:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Keep telling yourself that. There might be a CEDIA 2017 surprise announcement that will change your mind.
If there is something good in the fall then I already changed my mind.
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post #17205 of 18182 Old 07-05-2017, 11:58 PM
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Cropped (only to adjust aspect ratio) to 40 MP, then re-sized. (The 3:2 Canon image is 50 MP; 16-35 IS f/4 @f/8 @28mm 1/320 ISO 200 - slightly softer in corners when viewing original pixels!)
Full size is here

Looks kinda soft for the downscale ratio to me. The image itself is very nice What resizer did you use? Can you try this one? http://andreasresch.at/2013/04/07/we...g-for-the-web/
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post #17206 of 18182 Old 07-06-2017, 01:14 AM
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@madshi , here're more test images: https://yadi.sk/d/NGwVcjyw3Knbgq
Sony A7 Original & downsampled to UHD (you might find the sharpness level to be quite satisfying) - this is my photo
Sony A7R II Original & downsampled to UHD - this is photo taken from here: http://www.photographyblog.com/previ...4_70mm_photos/

I don't know the best settings to madVR for downsampling this so I didn't do it.
The Tower Bridge image looks nice. Here it is sharpened and downscaled to UHD:

http://madshi.net/TowerBridgeUHD.png

Probably we should ask for "ok" from the blog to use this image?

I don't like your Sony A7 photo much, to be honest. If you look at the golden tower tops at 100% view, there's very noticeable and ugly ringing.

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Looking for images from high MP cameras? From my 50 MP 5DsR (no AA filter) overcast day in Seattle- original pixels (an unscaled 4096x2160 crop from the centre of the image).
Full size is here
Can you upload the full 50MP image without any cropping or downscaling? Ideally, in PNG or TIFF would be nice, to get the highest possible quality?
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post #17207 of 18182 Old 07-06-2017, 01:47 AM
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Can you upload the full 50MP image without any cropping or downscaling? Ideally, in PNG or TIFF would be nice, to get the highest possible quality?
Well he said "cropped" so there's no resizing done, it's a 1 to 1 pixel crop.


But nevetheless you are always adding one major error in the process, that is it is taken by a camera with an electronic sensor thru optical glass that even if highest expensive quality has a non infinite optical pass band (and also adding optical distortions and aberations).


Why not use a computer made picture, some newer outputs are very natural looking now, like hi-res games and so on.
Easiest to do should be a screen capture expanded to the required resolution (8K+) by manually mosaicing several of them side by side.


Edit: I forgot to mention that if picture has not been taken with a solid heavy tripod, remote actuator and vibration control OFF yo will also add motion blurr .......

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post #17208 of 18182 Old 07-06-2017, 02:18 AM
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The Tower Bridge image looks nice. Here it is sharpened and downscaled to UHD:

http://madshi.net/TowerBridgeUHD.png

Probably we should ask for "ok" from the blog to use this image?
The fact that there is virtually no ringing and madVR does it in real-time is quite amazing. The image downscaled by Photoshop script is sharper though ringing is visible in a few places (that yellow CERU logo on a cart, for example). http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/214787

Yes, there is some ringing visible in Sony A7 image. Note that less agressive settings can be used in Anreas Rech's script. It's just I didn't get it right the first time. Here's a comparison of Sigma crop vs. Sony A7 downscaled: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/214776
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post #17209 of 18182 Old 07-06-2017, 02:58 AM
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Well he said "cropped" so there's no resizing done, it's a 1 to 1 pixel crop.
Yes, but a 1:1 pixel crop from a Bayer sensor is low quality, very soft.

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But nevetheless you are always adding one major error in the process, that is it is taken by a camera with an electronic sensor thru optical glass that even if highest expensive quality has a non infinite optical pass band (and also adding optical distortions and aberations).
Some of which can be nicely worked around by shooting in a much higher resolution and then downscaling. Which is why I've asked for the full res untouched 50MP image, so I could downscale that with a good algorithm to 4K.

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Why not use a computer made picture, some newer outputs are very natural looking now, like hi-res games and so on.
Can you provide such an image? Generally, I prefer testing with real world material. But it's always good to test with different types of images. So why not adding a high quality computer generated image to the bunch of test images?

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The fact that there is virtually no ringing and madVR does it in real-time is quite amazing. The image downscaled by Photoshop script is sharper though ringing is visible in a few places (that yellow CERU logo on a cart, for example). http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/214787
Of course I could have gone for even sharper in madVR, but I thought the image I produced was already approaching over-the-top sharp. At some point it stops looking natural, IMHO.
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post #17210 of 18182 Old 07-06-2017, 03:08 AM
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Of course I could have gone for even sharper in madVR, but I thought the image I produced was already approaching over-the-top sharp. At some point it stops looking natural, IMHO.
I could use your algo for downscaling all of my photos all right. By the way, how do you do it? If only there was a quicker way to do it rather than drag'n'drop images to MPC-HC and taking a screenshot.

P.S. I think we're going too off-topic right now.
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post #17211 of 18182 Old 07-06-2017, 04:42 AM
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interesting review of UHD550:

Check out Bond scene 12:50 minute


and same scene on TW9300 / 5040ub:

https://hdtvpolska.com/wp-content/up.../TW9300_30.jpg

from 14 minute there is comparison of black levels of UHD550 followed by TW7300

Video: Epson TW9300 (5040ub), Denon AVR-X4300H, Panasonic UHD UB700, Nvidia Shield TV Pro, PS4 Pro, Samsung 65KS9000, Xbox 1S, dedicated HT room, 113" Adeo Prestige ref white
Audio: Dolby Atmos 7.1.4 (Dali Zensor: Z5,Z1,vokal,Phantom,Alteco, Sub E-12F), Denon PMA-1500AE,
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post #17212 of 18182 Old 07-06-2017, 04:46 AM
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I could use your algo for downscaling all of my photos all right. By the way, how do you do it? If only there was a quicker way to do it rather than drag'n'drop images to MPC-HC and taking a screenshot.

P.S. I think we're going too off-topic right now.
For the Tower Bridge I used "image enhancements -> AdaptiveSharpen 2.0 + anti-ringing, but no anti-bloating", and "SSIM 1D" downscaling with everything checked and at 100%.

This thread has historically always had like 70% (or so) off-topic posts, so I think that's ok...
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post #17213 of 18182 Old 07-06-2017, 04:51 AM
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from 14 minute there is comparison of black levels of UHD550 followed by TW7300

Unfortunately Mr. Obermayer doesn't say whether the lamp mode of the UHD550x was set to "Dynamic black", "eco" or "bright" (I'd suspect "bright" because in the subsequent program they highlight how much they liked HDR performance with the UHD BD of The Revenant).

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post #17214 of 18182 Old 07-06-2017, 05:06 AM
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interesting review of UHD550:

Check out Bond scene 12:50 minute

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIShIU-2UZ8

and same scene on TW9300 / 5040ub:

https://hdtvpolska.com/wp-content/up.../TW9300_30.jpg

from 14 minute there is comparison of black levels of UHD550 followed by TW7300
The UHD550X is a business/ultra budget projector. It is rated with 60% less contrast than the UHD65 and has a RGBCYW wheel.

From the Optoma UHD family, I'd only recommend the UHD65/UHZ65 for serious movie watchers... UHD60 good for games and rooms with significant ambient light. UHD550X business/educaton.
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post #17215 of 18182 Old 07-06-2017, 05:10 AM
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from 14 minute there is comparison of black levels of UHD550 followed by TW7300
Ouch, that's why I don't use my Planar for any critical viewing anymore. I couldn't go back to "blacks" like that.
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post #17216 of 18182 Old 07-06-2017, 06:36 AM
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Once, again, more off-topic and condescending posts removed. Infractions issued.

So, this time, we'll put it in caps: DISCUSS THE TOPIC AND NOT EACH OTHER.

And not cars, either. Unless they come with expensive projectors as part of a stupidly expensive rear seat entertainment system.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
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post #17217 of 18182 Old 07-06-2017, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartyMcFlyy View Post
interesting review of UHD550:

Check out Bond scene 12:50 minute

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIShIU-2UZ8

and same scene on TW9300 / 5040ub:

https://hdtvpolska.com/wp-content/up.../TW9300_30.jpg

from 14 minute there is comparison of black levels of UHD550 followed by TW7300


The contrast is so bad on this faux 4k lite Optoma that I can't imagine anyone being satisfied with this minuscule level of performance.

Current projector - JVC RS25 and Marantz VP15S1
Future projector - pre-ordered new JVC from AVScience
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post #17218 of 18182 Old 07-06-2017, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jj-34 View Post
Well he said "cropped" so there's no resizing done, it's a 1 to 1 pixel crop.


But nevetheless you are always adding one major error in the process, that is it is taken by a camera with an electronic sensor thru optical glass that even if highest expensive quality has a non infinite optical pass band (and also adding optical distortions and aberations).


Why not use a computer made picture, some newer outputs are very natural looking now, like hi-res games and so on.
Easiest to do should be a screen capture expanded to the required resolution (8K+) by manually mosaicing several of them side by side.


Edit: I forgot to mention that if picture has not been taken with a solid heavy tripod, remote actuator and vibration control OFF yo will also add motion blurr .......
Wow - the idea of using a tripod had really never occurred to me (Did you notice the fact that it's an image-stabilized lens?) Yeah, sad that an image from a high MP camera has to come through a real lens but the virtual ones are so expensive, so that "error" is inevitable Did you know Photoshop corrects for distortions and aberrations?? If you want a fake test image, then feel free to make your own I do have quite a few >100 MP panos but they will probably not satisfy you since they were taken with real lenses.
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post #17219 of 18182 Old 07-06-2017, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MartyMcFlyy View Post
interesting review of UHD550:

Check out Bond scene 12:50 minute

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIShIU-2UZ8

and same scene on TW9300 / 5040ub:

https://hdtvpolska.com/wp-content/up.../TW9300_30.jpg

from 14 minute there is comparison of black levels of UHD550 followed by TW7300
The UHD550X is a business/ultra budget projector. It is rated with 60% less contrast than the UHD65 and has a RGBCYW wheel.

From the Optoma UHD family, I'd only recommend the UHD65/UHZ65 for serious movie watchers... UHD60 good for games and rooms with significant ambient light. UHD550X business/educaton.
I'm going to probably buy one of the Optomas, but not going to be watching movies on it. They all will disappoint. Kids viewing, gaming, and TV watching will be the majority of the content. Until there is a laser equivalent out for under $2000
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post #17220 of 18182 Old 07-06-2017, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post
I'm going to probably buy one of the Optomas, but not going to be watching movies on it. They all will disappoint. Kids viewing, gaming, and TV watching will be the majority of the content. Until there is a laser equivalent out for under $2000
Why not just get an LG PF1500 for that? 1/3 the cost, LED light source, bright, native 1080p. I know zombie10k's got one of them and enjoys it greatly for non-critical viewing like you describe.
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