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post #17281 of 18197 Old 07-08-2017, 07:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
Here is my last LS10000 (note, I had several exchanges and all were similar). This unit was handpicked by their QC.

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Definitely some room for improvement. Sony as well. The JVCs are much better in this regard, but some of the do have issues with bright corners. Trade offs everywhere depending the display you go with.
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post #17282 of 18197 Old 07-09-2017, 12:53 AM
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My cheap 3100 has way, way better uniformity than that. Epson should be ashamed.
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post #17283 of 18197 Old 07-09-2017, 03:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Ironically I've seen him recommend that on the forum before as his favorite DLP alternative. For recommendations, it's always nice to have actually seen the projector before you recommend it. The LS series with the white and greyfield uniformity is horrible. It's about as bad as the Sony 4Ks. Here's an Epson LS series projector with a 40% IRE pattern up:



Typical Sony 4K:

Yep because aside from DLP the Epson is the only alternative with Laser/led. I am aware of the greyscale uniformity issues which is why I said I wasn't interested in B stock, I figure it's more likely to get a return that had greater uniformity issues. Just like getting a jvc rs600 with brightness uniformity issues would probably be more likely. If they offered a JVC laser for reasonable price I'd probably get that over the Epson, assuming I get either and don't just get the UHZ65 to tide me over until native 4k lcos laser or some better dlp solution is cheaper.

I find things like uniformity issues, convergence issues, (and in CRT days geometry) extremely annoying which is part of the reason I like DLP, BTW.

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post #17284 of 18197 Old 07-09-2017, 03:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Definitely some room for improvement. Sony as well. The JVCs are much better in this regard, but some of the do have issues with bright corners. Trade offs everywhere depending the display you go with.
Absolutely. Best to only be concerned with issues that are actually visible during movie playback, otherwise we wouldn't buy anything.

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post #17285 of 18197 Old 07-09-2017, 03:52 AM
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Absolutely. Best to only be concerned with issues that are actually visible during movie playback, otherwise we wouldn't buy anything.
I believe the JVC brightness uniformity issues were visible during movie playback (like fades to black) for some, and some detected flicker in high brightness scenes with JVC, plus the banding complaints about CMD for those that use it.

Epson appears to have less complaints from owners about issues during movie playback as far as I can tell - I'm not sure what movie content would make noticeable the greyscale uniformity issue for instance.

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post #17286 of 18197 Old 07-09-2017, 04:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
I believe the JVC brightness uniformity issues were visible during movie playback (like fades to black) for some, and some detected flicker in high brightness scenes with JVC, plus the banding complaints about CMD for those that use it.

Epson appears to have less complaints from owners about issues during movie playback as far as I can tell - I'm not sure what movie content would make noticeable the greyscale uniformity issue for instance.
I agree.

Watching a B&W movie would probably show up any greyscale issues if they were bad enough. If it doesn't show up then I wouldn't worry about it.
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post #17287 of 18197 Old 07-09-2017, 04:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Tai-Stik View Post
Here's my dilemma. My primary use case is for this projector are the following in order of importance:

- Home Cinema (I want more contrast, less distracting RBE, best cinematic experience I can afford)
- Viewing high res stills and my own cinema from my PC (I want to maintain high resolution)
- Video games, this is least of my priorities but high lag isn't great
- I'm not rich, so I'm going to have to stick in this price ballpark

Question: Should I try the...

- UHD-65, will its color wheel reduce RBE enough to NOT TO DRIVE ME NUTS, have closer to 10bit color, and an improvement in contrast?
- Epson HC4000/5040 for better blacks and colors (I know what difference this makes) but will its reduced resolution hold up when viewing high res stills?
- Used Sony 350es... no HDR but may not matter? Still pricey.

Any suggestions are welcome. Thanks all.
My suggestions would be 5040Ub (or 4040ub if you don't have bat cave and plan to use it in the living room) or RS420. I had a chance to see them side by side and personally I would choose one of them.
Contrast is decent and much higher than in Optomas, no RBE, you got bonus 3d option, no lag for gaming. JVC has adantage which will allow you to play 4k eshift + HDR same time an more contrast (this difference will be less visible in non dedicated room). You will loose on 4k sharpness vs optomas but will gain deeper looking images, noticably better black levels and WCG coverage for 4K movies.

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post #17288 of 18197 Old 07-09-2017, 04:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
I agree.

Watching a B&W movie would probably show up any greyscale issues if they were bad enough. If it doesn't show up then I wouldn't worry about it.
Even so since the content of a B&W movie is not uniform in itself, I still think it would be tough to detect greyscale uniformity unless it was WAY off, like 10x worse than I've seen posted here.
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post #17289 of 18197 Old 07-09-2017, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Tai-Stik View Post
I'm aware that this is the high end projector thread, but after reading the past few pages it seems that people here have more experience who may have better advise for me on my recent purchase of the Optoma UHD-60:

I received my Optoma UHD-60 and have spent two evenings viewing it in my light controlled room and wanted to share my honest impressions and see what opinions others may have in terms of my decision of whether to keep it, trade up for a UHD-65, or try an Epson HC4000/5040 or used Sony 350es. Disclaimer: I am not an image scientist and I have not thoroughly calibrated it yet but I am a photographer and digital cinema shooter, so I have a good eye for what I'm looking for. I intend to further calibrate tonight.

Here's my setup:

- Projector: UHD-60
- Room: Light controlled, white and grey walls
- Screen: 125" Stewart
- Projector Distance: Just under 12ft
- Source: Macbook Pro and Sony UBP-X800 (also PS4 and ATV)

Impressions:

Good:

- Very bright even at eco lamp settings
- Very sharp image with high contrast UHD Bluray Discs (Planet Earth 2 was the only thing that really wowed me)
- Decent, vivid color, again with high contrast UHD Bluray Discs

Bad:

- VERY DISTRACTING RBE on dark scenes
- Not the greatest contrast leading, resulting in milky blacks, loss of shadow detail, and less perceived resolution
- NOT true 10bit color even though it's advertised as such, although it also says it's REC.709, but HDR should be 10bit and I see BANDING in skies and other gradients...
- Highlights roll off to yellow-ish banding, reminiscent of bad video
- Some compression/macroblocking artifacts were exaggerated by what may be bad color processing
- Not the cleanest pixel grid, although good enough to use as a pc monitor

Here's my dilemma. My primary use case is for this projector are the following in order of importance:

- Home Cinema (I want more contrast, less distracting RBE, best cinematic experience I can afford)
- Viewing high res stills and my own cinema from my PC (I want to maintain high resolution)
- Video games, this is least of my priorities but high lag isn't great
- I'm not rich, so I'm going to have to stick in this price ballpark

Question: Should I try the...

- UHD-65, will its color wheel reduce RBE enough to NOT TO DRIVE ME NUTS, have closer to 10bit color, and an improvement in contrast?
- Epson HC4000/5040 for better blacks and colors (I know what difference this makes) but will its reduced resolution hold up when viewing high res stills?
- Used Sony 350es... no HDR but may not matter? Still pricey.

Any suggestions are welcome. Thanks all.
You are having RBE and contrast issues because you bought the wrong Optoma model for your application - you got the one with the slow color wheel that is optimized for brightness (RGBCY) ; this type of color wheel is simply not designed for dark rooms and hence will be unsatisfactory both in contrast and in RBE effect due to its slow speed. The projector you bought is designed for rooms with a lot of ambient light.

If you get the UHD65 - the one designed for your type of room - it uses an RGBRGB color wheel with twice the effective speed of the UHD60 and hence far less noticeable RBE. It also has about 25% more contrast.

It still won't have as much contrast as a Epson 5040ub, for instance, but with that projector you are taking a big, big step down in resolution. Compared to the UHD65 it is very blurry up close. So it is your preference really, resolution vs contrast. The contrast of the UHD65 it's far reduced RBE may be enough to satisfy you while allowing you to retain a higher detail projector.

Also the Sony 365ES while having native 4k panels has poor detail. It has a terrible lens which defeats the purpose of buying a 4k projector.

Last edited by Ruined; 07-09-2017 at 05:10 AM.
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post #17290 of 18197 Old 07-09-2017, 04:52 AM
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Colour uniformity would be visible in snow scenes for example, and I've seen that on some LCD based projectors over the years.

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post #17291 of 18197 Old 07-09-2017, 04:53 AM
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All of this is pure speculation. The lamp dimming technique used in the UHD65 cannot simply be ported over to the UHZ65. The two lighting sources are totally different meaning controlling each is different as well. This means we have no idea if the UHZ65 will perform the same. Given Optoma's track record I'm going to remain skeptical. The UHD65 has been the only Optoma unit I've seen with a contrast enhancement implementation where I haven't totally hated it. But that doesn't mean any subsequent implementations will automatically be good, especially when that subsequent one is with a totally different enhancement device. I also have serious doubts as to the UHZ65 having more contrast. From the photos out of the UHZ65 it looks to be using many of the same components as the UHD65. It wouldn't surprise me if most of the UHD65's light engine were used again. This was done with the Runco Q750i where the majority of the light engine from the PD8150 was reused with just LEDs and control board being essentially swapped out with the lamp and color wheel. If this is the case, that means due to more light inside an otherwise unchanged light engine means more light scatter thus reducing native contrast. Again, I remain skeptical until we see and here some objective and subjective first hand information.
Of course it's speculation since it's not out yet. But, Optoma has spec'd the UHZ65 at 25% higher contrast and 25% higher lumens than the UHD65. If they were expecting it to perform the same or worse in these areas why would they increase the specs vs other models in same family? Also note, the contrast extrapolation from the spec sheet on the UHD60 to the UHD65 also played out in reality; in fact real world showed a slightly higher percentage gain than the spec sheet indicated.

Finally given optoma's fantastic performance on the UHD65 for the price it looks like they hired someone who knows what they are doing in maximizing DLP performance; they essentially slaughtered BenQ for 1/3 the asking price using the same chip. So that combined with the increased specifications of the UHZ65 I remain quite optimistic.

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post #17292 of 18197 Old 07-09-2017, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
Colour uniformity would be visible in snow scenes for example, and I've seen that on some LCD based projectors over the years.
It's these little annoyances of LCD/LCOS that always has me gravitate towards DLP. Yeah it's lower contrast but the only abnormality you see is RBE, and with a fast color wheel it rarely shows up.

On the other hand, having enough native contrast to run without dynamic contrast enabled may outweigh those little issues depending on the projector.

This is why I like the Epson LS10500, it seems to have minimal real world content annoyances and it has laser. About the only issue remaining is value, and I am having a tough time weighing the value of the Epson LS10500 vs the Optoma UHZ65. Even though the Optoma has less native contrast and will require dynamic contrast, the UHD65 has a good dynamic contrast implementation so I am hopeful the UHZ65 does as well. And it is very tough to wrap my head around dropping $7999 on a 1080p projector given I can get the UHZ65 probably for nearly half the price with much higher detail. The UHZ65 may be a smarter move to hold me over in the next few years while the prices on native 4k laser lcos drops or some new/better DLP chip/implementation arrives; I am sure to take a bath in resale value of LS10500, where as I will likely lose a lot less on a UHZ65.

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post #17293 of 18197 Old 07-09-2017, 05:30 AM
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One thing when comparing LCOS 4K vs DLP 4K, I often see left out the large impact that panel alignment errors brings to LCOS 4K UHD.

Take the below comparison of Ekki from cine4home.de.

The VW675ES is an excellent native 4k LCOS projector that costs $15000, quite a lot more money than the DLP its being compared to. In this scene, it may even have 10% more absolute detail than the pixelshifted DLP 4k. However, the thing that stands out the most when looking just at the detail is how much of this detail on the LCOS is obscured by panel alignment aritfacts. All of the text has purple/green borders and the entire building in the foreground is wrongly rendered purple on the Sony due to this, purple & green along all of the building lines, while you see none of this on the DLP. So even if did get a little more detail, it is mucked up by all of that chroma artifacting, making the detail moot IMO.

Sony VW675ES (LCOS 4K UHD DCI-P3 lamp): http://cine4home.de/wp-content/uploa...2/Detail20.jpg
Acer V9800 (DLP 4K UHD REC709 lamp): http://cine4home.de/wp-content/uploa...2/Detail19.jpg

These sort of LCOS artifacts IMO make the picture look very artificial compared to the DLP rendering. Never in real life looking down the street would you see a whole grey building colored purple like that, nor would you see purple and green edges on high contrast borders.

I wouldn't buy this particular Acer as it is contrast challenged (significantly less contrast than the $1999 UHD60 with its high brightness RGBCY wheel, for instance) and has a noisy DI, but this picture is a good example to demonstrate this type of artifacting.

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post #17294 of 18197 Old 07-09-2017, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
It still won't have as much contrast as a Epson 5040ub, for instance, but with that projector you are taking a big, big step down in resolution. Compared to the UHD65 it is very blurry up close. So it is your preference really, resolution vs contrast. The contrast of the UHD65 it's far reduced RBE may be enough to satisfy you while allowing you to retain a higher detail projector.

Also the Sony 365ES while having native 4k panels has poor detail. It has a terrible lens which defeats the purpose of buying a 4k projector.
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Ignoring the contrast issues Darin already mentioned, this was also the first chance to see DLP's "4K" model. I've seen the round and round going on about what is and isn't 4K and have heard about TI demonstrating these with test patterns to show that it is 4K. The literature even talks about how this is better than 3-chip 4K because 3-chip have issues with convergence and focus compared to single chip. I've also seen Ruined's comments about motion resolution, but that is nonsense as you could apply that to any projector at any resolution as well as the resolution of the capture (there is a reason people complain about 24fps).

So first, I looked at 4K content. I ignored contrast as much as possible and focused on resolution with clips that I feel like I've watched endlessly (Life, Lucy, Revenant). Resolution wise on my screen (140" scope ST100) it was a small step up from what I remembered from the JVC RS620 but a step down from the RS4500. It would fit right in between the two. But this is where I'll bring up motion as I expected it to trump my JVC given that it is DLP. This projector had very noticeable resolution breakup in motion. It reminded me a lot of the older JVCs and their "motion contouring" issue, though it looked a bit more digital at times. This was really evident in the opening battle of The Revenant and in some clips from John Wick that looked more like motion banding. So no dice at all with motion, even the lower end JVCs don't look anything like this in motion.

Next I looked at a few 4K test patterns from the Masciola UHD test pattern set. In the basic tests is one for resolution and sharpness and there were a lot of artifacts with the DLP that were not there at all with the 4500. Some of the patterns were completely blurred, others just showed interference patterns and flicker. Moving onto the single black pixels pattern in the misc section (which was added by request by me) this pattern looked awful on the BenQ with nothing but artifacts while it looked completely resolved by the 4500 with clear delineation of the pattern despite the 3-chip approach.

If I added contrast back into the equation I would guess there wouldn't be a single person alive that I could show this projector to that would even consider it if I played it side by side against something like the mid or even low line current JVC or the Epson LS series, all of which are at or below this price point.
Reading Kris's post, the resolution ends up being somewhere between true 4k and 1080p. With the lack of contrast, that is probably a small increment at best in resolution jump. On the flip side, the faux 4k lite Optoma has a massive deficit to Epson in contrast.

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post #17295 of 18197 Old 07-09-2017, 08:23 AM
 
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Reading Kris's post, the resolution ends up being somewhere between true 4k and 1080p. With the lack of contrast, that is probably a small increment at best in resolution jump. On the flip side, the faux 4k lite Optoma has a massive deficit to Epson in contrast.
And if you're not actually getting real 4K resolution, is the massive deficit in contrast and overall image quality worth it?
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post #17296 of 18197 Old 07-09-2017, 08:32 AM
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Yep because aside from DLP the Epson is the only alternative with Laser/led. I am aware of the greyscale uniformity issues which is why I said I wasn't interested in B stock, I figure it's more likely to get a return that had greater uniformity issues. Just like getting a jvc rs600 with brightness uniformity issues would probably be more likely. If they offered a JVC laser for reasonable price I'd probably get that over the Epson, assuming I get either and don't just get the UHZ65 to tide me over until native 4k lcos laser or some better dlp solution is cheaper.

I find things like uniformity issues, convergence issues, (and in CRT days geometry) extremely annoying which is part of the reason I like DLP, BTW.
I had the issue on three brand new replacement LS10000 units. Epson offered to do a buy-back and I took them up on it.

It showed in content (after the unit was properly calibrated) which is how I first noticed it and then found it very distracting. Not just in black and white movies, but movies with certain interiors or beige, greys, etc. Here is a scene from Heat. The area circled should not be that magenta tint color - it should be more grey/teal. It actually showed worse in person but the photo still shows it.
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post #17297 of 18197 Old 07-09-2017, 08:34 AM
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I've NEVER seen a 3-chip design that has panel alignment issues that were so severe that they couldn't be fixed with their respective controls or be seen more than a few feet away from a screen. Color fringing from CA is far more prevalent, and effects DLP just as much as it does any other type of display and even that is rare unless you have your nose to the screen. Pixel focus on the JVCs has typically been outstanding in my experience. Sony is good but not typically great and the Epson's I've seen have been a mixed bag.

On a 125" screen the difference between an eShift projector and one of these DLPs is going to be so marginal in terms of detail it would almost not be worth talking about unless you were sitting REALLY close (less than a screen width most likely). The differences in contrast though would be absurd though.
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post #17298 of 18197 Old 07-09-2017, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
And if you're not actually getting real 4K resolution, is the massive deficit in contrast and overall image quality worth it?
The Epson is much blurrier than the Optoma, no doubt about it. You yourself stated the 1080p mode of the Epson is sharper than the 4k enhancement mode. Unlike with the UHZ65, which is actually quite similar to native 4k for movie content from all of the pixel peeping closeup photos I have seen. So that must be taken into consideration, that the Epson is essentially a 1080p projector with an eshift mode that helps SDE but not detail much.

Re overall image quality, assuming spec extrapolation holds true
Resolution = UHZ65 wins
Contrast = LS10500 wins
Brightness = UHZ65 wins
Uniformity = UHZ65 wins
Color = Tie
RBE = Ls10500 wins
Panel Alignment = UHZ65 wins

So unless you value contrast above all else I disagree overall image quality has a clear cut winner.

The Epson is also at least $3000 more, probably closer to $4000 more after street discount. Thus that is an extra $3500 I won't have use of.

The Epson I will take a bath when trying to resell and probably lose $5k. The Optoma UHZ65 I will lose some money, but not nearly as much - I'd think $3k at most.

If the Epson was a slam dunk 4k uhd laser that beat the Optoma in every category I'd have no problem spending the money. But it's not. It's basically a 1080p laser pj for nearly double the price, and when I try to sell it im going to lose my shirt.

For a transition projector until something like a laser VW675ES becomes available under 10k, the UHZ65 just seems logically like a more intelligent purchase. Barring of course it doesn't have a terrible dynamic contrast system - though I'm hopeful after UHD65.

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post #17299 of 18197 Old 07-09-2017, 10:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
Let's go one by one:

LS10500
* More brightness - the UHZ65 is rated 800 lumens higher than the UHD65, thus it looks like it will match or best the LS10500 in brightness.
* A better lens - Given how much less sharp the Epson is and how much more chroma artifacting it has, this is definitely questionable. If it does have a better lens, it doesn't help vs the Optoma (or JVC for that matter).
* Better focus uniformity - Tentative how the UHZ65 does here, depends on implementation.
* A magnitude more native contrast - Score one clear win for the LS10500.
* Native color gamut is wider - the UHZ65 appears that it will support DCI-p3
* Properly 24p cadence - We will see how the UHZ65 does here, depends on implementation.
* A better dynamic contrast implementation - We will see how the UHZ65 does here, depends on implementation.
* Better Frame Interpolation - Meaningless to me, I hate what FI does to the picture.
* Can actually do 3D - And has terrible crosstalk, I'd rather use my BenQ W7000 for 3D and not get a headache.
Again, you only talk about pure speculation. Between the projectors you've never seen or ones that haven't been released yet, why are you arguing about them? This is getting long in the tooth. Go out and actually compare some and then come back to the discussion. I can look at spec sheets all day too, but that doesn't mean I know what I'm talking about.
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post #17300 of 18197 Old 07-09-2017, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I disagree. The Epson 5040 and Epson 4000 are great values. You get way more for your money. If the UHD65 were priced at $1500 then I'd agree.
And here is where I get to disagree, and present evidence to support my own opinion.

Cine4Home absolutely killed any interest I had in the 5040UB with its detail comparison vs the Acer XPR DLP.

The 5040UB's detail compared to a DLP 4K XPR is horrendous and artifact-laden, and that's not even considering the dust blobs that get stuck on the Epson LCD panels as I have seen reported here over and over again.

Epson 5040UB (4Ke 3LCD)
http://cine4home.de/wp-content/uploa...2/Detail16.jpg

Acer V9800 (4K UHD DLP)
http://cine4home.de/wp-content/uploa...2/Detail15.jpg


Epson 5040UB (4Ke 3LCD)
http://cine4home.de/wp-content/uploa...12/Detail3.jpg

Acer V9800 (4K UHD DLP)
http://cine4home.de/wp-content/uploa...12/Detail4.jpg


While I wouldn't want the Acer, I could see myself getting the UHZ65. I will take the contrast hit over a 5040UB to avoid having detail that poor and artificial looking. The extra features a 5040UB might have like motorized lens, etc, I have no use for, so do not play a factor in my value assessment.

Last edited by Ruined; 07-09-2017 at 10:36 AM.
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post #17301 of 18197 Old 07-09-2017, 12:17 PM
 
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It looks like the BenQ HT9050 is based off of the FLEXLIGHT 4K UHD PROJECTOR, which is OEM'ed by someone I've never heard before; Keynote Photonics.

http://www.keynotephotonics.com/lc-4k-uhd-hld/

It should also be noted that you can buy an evaluation unit for half the cost of the BenQ HT9050:

http://keynotephotonics.3dcartstores...ctor_p_62.html
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post #17302 of 18197 Old 07-09-2017, 12:28 PM
 
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As for the future of UHD blu-ray and how DLP comes into play, a single chip DLP projector will not be able to do Dolby Vision...ever. Dolby Vision requires 12 bit color and single chip DLP is only capable of 10 bit. The mirrors are only capable of 1024 shades of grey. Only 3 chip DLP can do 12bit+ color. JVCs current 1080p and native 4K LCoS chips, along with it's input capabilities and processing path allows for full 12 bit in and 12 bit display. Within the next 18 months I fully expect native 4K imagers from Epson, Sony and JVC to penetrate the sub $10000 market with full 12 bit in and 12 bit display. So add this to the laundry list of things DLP will be behind in. Their XPR technology will lack contrast, 1:1 pixel mapping for UHD Blu-ray material (aka it's not really 4K), 12 bit color capabilities for Dolby Vision HDR and more than likely it won't be able to compete lumen-wise with subsequent LCoS models.
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post #17303 of 18197 Old 07-09-2017, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
It looks like the BenQ HT9050 is based off of the FLEXLIGHT 4K UHD PROJECTOR, which is OEM'ed by someone I've never heard before; Keynote Photonics.

http://www.keynotephotonics.com/lc-4k-uhd-hld/

It should also be noted that you can buy an evaluation unit for half the cost of the BenQ HT9050:

http://keynotephotonics.3dcartstores...ctor_p_62.html
Casio also did a high brightness-wheel version of this projector. The contrast must be REALLY bad on that one!
http://www.casio.com/products/projec...ors/xj-l8300hn
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post #17304 of 18197 Old 07-09-2017, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
As for the future of UHD blu-ray and how DLP comes into play, a single chip DLP projector will not be able to do Dolby Vision...ever. Dolby Vision requires 12 bit color and single chip DLP is only capable of 10 bit. The mirrors are only capable of 1024 shades of grey. Only 3 chip DLP can do 12bit+ color. JVCs current 1080p and native 4K LCoS chips, along with it's input capabilities and processing path allows for full 12 bit in and 12 bit display. Within the next 18 months I fully expect native 4K imagers from Epson, Sony and JVC to penetrate the sub $10000 market with full 12 bit in and 12 bit display. So add this to the laundry list of things DLP will be behind in. Their XPR technology will lack contrast, 1:1 pixel mapping for UHD Blu-ray material (aka it's not really 4K), 12 bit color capabilities for Dolby Vision HDR and more than likely it won't be able to compete lumen-wise with subsequent LCoS models.
Does this make a difference when consumer projectors can't even do HDR10 full justice?

And I am sure you know the end user calibration issues that has prevented dolby vision from arriving on consumer projectors in the first place?
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post #17305 of 18197 Old 07-09-2017, 12:48 PM
 
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Quote:
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Casio also did a high brightness-wheel version of this projector. The contrast must be REALLY bad on that one!
http://www.casio.com/products/projec...ors/xj-l8300hn
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Does this make a difference when consumer projectors can't even do HDR10 full justice?

And I am sure you know the end user calibration issues that has prevented dolby vision from arriving on consumer projectors in the first place?
Yes and yes. While they might not be able to reach the 10000 nit brightness peak of Dolby Vision, flat panels won't be able to either. But at least the JVC, Sony, and more than likely Epson units will be able to do the true 12 bit color. Custom gamma curves for HDR10 look remarkably good on the JVCs.

DLP is dead as an enthusiast grade digital projection platform as it currently stands. In 18 months when these 3 companies have native 4K projectors in this price range you'll have absolutely no leg to stand on.

Last edited by DrDon; 07-09-2017 at 01:57 PM.
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post #17306 of 18197 Old 07-09-2017, 12:50 PM
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More bickering removed as well as posts quoting said bickering. Infractions issued.

Discuss the topic and not each other.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
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post #17307 of 18197 Old 07-09-2017, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Yes and yes. While they might not be able to reach the 10000 nit brightness peak of Dolby Vision, flat panels won't be able to either. But at least the JVC, Sony, and more than likely Epson units will be able to do the true 12 bit color. Custom gamma curves for HDR10 look remarkably good on the JVCs.

DLP is dead as an enthusiast grade digital projection platform as it currently stands. In 18 months when these 3 companies have native 4K projectors in this price range you'll have absolutely no leg to stand on.
Sounds more like a hope than a guarantee.

We don't even know if Dolby Vision will make it to mainstream consumer projectors anytime soon, and even if it does it will likely require significant end user intervention/knowledge to calibrate it so it operates properly (or require expensive addon hardware, or Dolby will have to gimp DV for consumer projectors).

Last edited by DrDon; 07-09-2017 at 01:58 PM.
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post #17308 of 18197 Old 07-09-2017, 01:10 PM
 
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Sounds more like a hope than a guarantee.

We don't even know if Dolby Vision will make it to mainstream consumer projectors anytime soon, and even if it does it will likely require significant end user intervention/knowledge to calibrate it so it operates properly (or require expensive addon hardware, or Dolby will have to gimp DV for consumer projectors).
The difference is that the LCoS projectors have the capability at least. If Dolby Vision becomes a very popular HDR format as we move forward, JVC/Sony/Epson will do their best to work something out with Dolby to get it implemented on projectors. If an XPR based DLP projector were to try and make it work, they'd be forced to dither the color down to 10bit and also truncate the dynamic range. So like XPR not being true 4K (as the test patterns have already shown), it also won't be able to display HDR as it was meant to be seen as well. We also have the issue of color reproduction too. We need to see more LED or direct laser units that can hit at least P3 to faithfully reproduce color saturation. Something like the UHD65 isn't going to cut it when it has all of this against it compared to what we're most likely going to see released within the next 18 months from Sony/Epson/JVC. That is fully 12bit capable native 4K displays with a lot of brightness, contrast and at least P3 color saturation. DLP needs some big changes moving forward otherwise it won't literally be capable of doing the same things that LCoS projectors can already and will be able to do within a short amount of time.

Last edited by DrDon; 07-09-2017 at 01:59 PM.
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post #17309 of 18197 Old 07-09-2017, 02:34 PM
 
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I just found the OEM source for Sim2's new Nero 4 projector. It's a Coretronic OEM projector. It's the same unit as the upcoming (shipping within 2 weeks) Optoma 4K500 projector. I'm not sure on Sim2's pricing. IIRC Sim2 will be asking close to $30,000 for that unit. The Optoma 4K500 will be $7000 MSRP. Same I/O, lens (motorized zoom/focus, but manual lens shift), video processing, ect. The major difference, as usual, will be the Nero 4 has a nice shiny custom chassis surrounding it. Those that were interested in the Nero 4 might want to opt for the much cheaper Optoma clone unit.
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post #17310 of 18197 Old 07-09-2017, 04:06 PM
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I'm going make a couple of points and (strong) suggestions:

1) I feel the frustration on both sides of these issues. With that being said, know that you will not change the person behind the keyboard, they are who they are. One post (or several) will not change that....there will be no post of "enlightenment". I wish it could happen, but it won't.

2) We have an ignore feature for this reason. There are members that will not get along...it is what it is. If you use it, it's a guarantee that the person who irritates you will not irritate you any more....why? Because you won't see their posts. We are coming to a point where if you don't want to use the ignore feature, then you have nothing to complain about...which means an end to using the report post function for posts in this thread.

3) The other option is the mods ban ALL of those who are not getting along. This is our way of guaranteeing members will stop complaining about each other.

We get more report posts on this thread than any other on AVS. I'm sure we all have better (and more enjoyable) things to do that fight about some thing that will not change.

Ron
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