Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 580 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #17371 of 17738 Old 07-11-2017, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I haven't seen the Optoma, so no comment there. Only the BenQ 9050 that I'm reviewing. I actually talked to my EIC about whether a review was a good idea after my intial impressions, but we're going to go ahead with it to ensure that our readers are aware. I believe Tom Norton just got an Optoma for review, not sure the exact model number though. I was told they may ship it out to me after he is done so I can compare to native 4K to see if the BenQ is an outlier or if I see the same issues with another design.
I'd be really surprised if the Optoma is substantially different. We've seen similar comments to your from many people with various different versions of the XPR machines.

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There's a 4 hour limit. I really wish Amazon carried these.
Doesn't Amazon have the UHD60? That should be substantially the same as the UHD65.

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Well I keep trying to get a real world review of the 3D on the JVC RS420 / 520 to see if there's ghosting, flickering issues etc, but I can't seem to find any of that out. Awesome 3D might tilt me towards the JVC since these 4K dlp units can't even do it yet.
That's what basically this whole thread was originally about. I'm sure zombie will chime in, but the RSx00/RSx20 have great 3D, almost DLP good, though if you're sensitive to flicker they aren't as good there.
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post #17372 of 17738 Old 07-11-2017, 10:56 AM
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I'd be really surprised if the Optoma is substantially different. We've seen similar comments to your from many people with various different versions of the XPR machines.
There appear to be a lot of differences. The UHD60 has a slower colors wheel that's not rgbrgb, that makes a big difference. The HK2288 is supposed to have possible better contrast than even the 65 etc. These things matter when you're calibrating.

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That's what basically this whole thread was originally about. I'm sure zombie will chime in, but the RSx00/RSx20 have great 3D, almost DLP good, though if you're sensitive to flicker they aren't as good there.
Projector Mini-Shootout Thread
Well all i have used for 3D is active RF DLP, so it's hard to tell how sensitive we'd be going to 96 or whatever it uses, that's why I am trying to get some people to chime in on that.
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post #17373 of 17738 Old 07-11-2017, 11:14 AM
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There appear to be a lot of differences. The UHD60 has a slower colors wheel that's not rgbrgb, that makes a big difference. The HK2288 is supposed to have possible better contrast than even the 65 etc.
They're still all going to be well under 2000:1, which is bad. There's nothing in the DLP bag of tricks to make a truly significant difference when it comes to contrast. The Optomas are probably all the same light engine, just with the color wheel/light source changed, that means they're going to be more the same than different. The same was true of the Planar 8150/LS5 and all it's siblings, they were all fundamentally the same image/quality, even the LED ones.

The Vivitek is a Delta light engine, so it's got that going for it, but everything else looks to be in the same ballpark, spec target wise, as Optoma, so I'd assume very similar performance, except for software differences.

I guess I just don't get it, when these XPR machines were first announced I was somewhat excited. I thought maybe this could be the return of DLP to being competitive in the HT market again. But now we've had a string of these machines, different models, from different manufacturers, with different reviewers, and the message is fundamentally the same every time. Sharper than the e-shift machines, but with very poor installation flexibility, no lens memory, no WCG (except perhaps some Laser machines) abysmal contrast, pedestrian brightness once calibrated. Maybe it's a difference between the <$2500 market and the ~$5000 market, but there's just nothing for me to be excited about. My Planar 8150 bested these machines in every way other than (potentially) sharpness, and it's almost 10 years old. I just can't get excited about 10 year old performance. And I've seen far too many reports which all say the same thing for me to have any optimism left that any of these machines will be remotely competitive with something like an RS520 or LS10000. Or heck, even an RS420 or Epson 5040.
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post #17374 of 17738 Old 07-11-2017, 11:21 AM
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Well I keep trying to get a real world review of the 3D on the JVC RS420 / 520 to see if there's ghosting, flickering issues etc, but I can't seem to find any of that out. Awesome 3D might tilt me towards the JVC since these 4K dlp units can't even do it yet.
It depends on how sensitive to flicker you are as this is where JVCs 3d drops the ball. Most don't seem bothered by it as you don't see it mentioned much, but I never got used to it in the 3 months I had my 520 (coming off flicker free DLP for 4 years prior) and much prefer my inferior contrast DLP for bright 3d because of it (dark 3d on the JVCs is excellent though).

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post #17375 of 17738 Old 07-11-2017, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by longhornsk57 View Post
There appear to be a lot of differences. The UHD60 has a slower colors wheel that's not rgbrgb, that makes a big difference. The HK2288 is supposed to have possible better contrast than even the 65 etc. These things matter when you're calibrating.



Well all i have used for 3D is active RF DLP, so it's hard to tell how sensitive we'd be going to 96 or whatever it uses, that's why I am trying to get some people to chime in on that.


Well I was a committed DLP enthusiast, now I have a JVC X7000. In general the JVC motion is not as good as the various DLPs, HD80, HD30 I've had but it's just about good enough for 2D, well once it's warmed up, some nasty artefacts for the first 20 mins.

3D motion seems almost as good as the DLP, not seen any crosstalk yet, even test patterns show no crosstalk. I'm currently using my ZF2100 glasses and emitter which works as my screen painted screen doesn't retain polarity.

The really huge difference is flicker, if you are sensitive to it you need to try it before you buy. The JVCs refresh at 96Hz instead of DLP triple flash at 144Hz which is the same as cinema refresh.

I found the flicker off putting at first but got used to it after a few minutes.

The other LCD derived projectors I've demoed LS10500 and UB5040 were unwatchable for 3D in my opinion, like a cheap LCD TV trying to do 3D.

I still have the HD30 installed and when I go back to it the triple flash is nice and calm but in almost every way the JVC is better. I do prefer to use the DLP for animated 3D and for my 120fps ski and sailing videos.

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post #17376 of 17738 Old 07-11-2017, 11:35 AM
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Correction Bright, animated 3D.
The Optoma DLP is better at bright video, the JVC loses some details in bright scenes. Most movies I watch are dark so the JVC is way better at that.
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post #17377 of 17738 Old 07-11-2017, 12:42 PM
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I don't know, we didn't really get a full on review of the different modes, calibration, how HDR actually performs with various tweaks, the FI compared. Unless I missed all that, the only thing I got was blacks are better on the JVC, resolution better on the Optoma, end of story.

This guy may not have had things properly calibrated, but he does make the care for the resolution.

Those of us don't really care about lcos vs 3lcd vs dlp and the ultimate war but want to see actual objective tests before we shell out thousands are still at a loss I feel like for real raw data.
Kris can't give out everything (BenQ), since he is writing a review to appear in print. But he did talk about some of the differences and how the two compared image wise.

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post #17378 of 17738 Old 07-11-2017, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
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JVC and Sony are basically the same w/ perceived flicker so 15K doesn't buy anything additional here. They are both noticeable better though with x-talk vs. the Epson(s).

depending on which 3D title, I go back and forth between the RS600 and the Sharp 30K stack (still king of the .65 DLP's by a good margin). shame they left the front projector market.





it's unfortunate that the DLP manufacturers that made their name with 3D DLP's all skipped out on 3D for these new UHD DLP's. I would have bought and reviewed them if they kept 3D.
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post #17379 of 17738 Old 07-11-2017, 01:31 PM
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Well I was a committed DLP enthusiast, now I have a JVC X7000. In general the JVC motion is not as good as the various DLPs, HD80, HD30 I've had but it's just about good enough for 2D, well once it's warmed up, some nasty artefacts for the first 20 mins.

3D motion seems almost as good as the DLP, not seen any crosstalk yet, even test patterns show no crosstalk. I'm currently using my ZF2100 glasses and emitter which works as my screen painted screen doesn't retain polarity.

The really huge difference is flicker, if you are sensitive to it you need to try it before you buy. The JVCs refresh at 96Hz instead of DLP triple flash at 144Hz which is the same as cinema refresh.

I found the flicker off putting at first but got used to it after a few minutes.

The other LCD derived projectors I've demoed LS10500 and UB5040 were unwatchable for 3D in my opinion, like a cheap LCD TV trying to do 3D.

I still have the HD30 installed and when I go back to it the triple flash is nice and calm but in almost every way the JVC is better. I do prefer to use the DLP for animated 3D and for my 120fps ski and sailing videos.

Andre
Wait the Optoma ZF2100 glasses work on your JVC? Or did I read that wrong? I have the ZF2300 glasses with the emitter I use on my optoma DLP 1080p unit and 3D is great. But you're saying for animated 3D you still use the Optoma over the JVC, that's interesting. What about movies like Avatar, The Walk, etc. I guess you use the JVC for that?

I am worried about flicker.



@zombie10k - are you using a dual projector system for 3D?
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post #17380 of 17738 Old 07-11-2017, 01:47 PM
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Well I keep trying to get a real world review of the 3D on the JVC RS420 / 520 to see if there's ghosting, flickering issues etc, but I can't seem to find any of that out. Awesome 3D might tilt me towards the JVC since these 4K dlp units can't even do it yet.
All depends if you and those who watch your system can handle 48hz/eye, which I've found is hit and miss. 60hz/eye is generally the standard considered for comfort.
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post #17381 of 17738 Old 07-11-2017, 01:50 PM
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All depends if you and those who watch your system can handle 48hz/eye, which I've found is hit and miss. 60hz/eye is generally the minimum considered for comfort.
Well there are tradeoffs no matter we go for here.

If I knew that the 520 3D flicker was fine for my friends and for me, I would probably just grab that PJ because of great image plus 3D. If the UHD65 had 3D, I'd probably be all over that. These guys are so annoying with how they give these trade offs, Why is the flicker for the JVC 96 anyways, is it a HW limitation or some idiot decided that was a good idea?
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post #17382 of 17738 Old 07-11-2017, 01:53 PM
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Well there are tradeoffs no matter we go for here.

If I knew that the 520 3D flicker was fine for my friends and for me, I would probably just grab that PJ because of great image plus 3D. If the UHD65 had 3D, I'd probably be all over that. These guys are so annoying with how they give these trade offs, Why is the flicker for the JVC 96 anyways, is it a HW limitation or some idiot decided that was a good idea?
For me the difference is 48hz 3d means eyestrain. Blacks not as deep in 3d means it looks slightly less awesome.

In the end, the 3d eyestrain projector will always lose because it physically impacts my comfort.

For me, I would use a BenQ W1070 secondary projector for 3d before lcd/lcos if at all possible. So it kind of negates the importance of 3d in lcd/lcos for me. It would be nice to have a DLP that does everything well so I don't need more than one projector, but this projector doesn't exist yet under 10k.

So probably going to pickup a Uhz65 and do dual pjs for a bit until a solid all in one comes out (likely 2019 at earliest)

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post #17383 of 17738 Old 07-11-2017, 02:01 PM
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For me the difference is 48hz 3d means eyestrain. Blacks not as deep in 3d means it looks slightly less awesome.

In the end, the 3d eyestrain projector will always lose because it physically impacts my comfort.

For me, I would use a BenQ W1070 secondary projector for 3d before lcd/lcos if at all possible. So it kind of negates the importance of 3d in lcd/lcos for me. It would be nice to have a DLP that does everything well so I don't need more than one projector, but this projector doesn't exist yet under 10k.

So probably going to pickup a Uhz65 and do dual pjs for a bit until a solid all in one comes out (likely 2019 at earliest)
I wish I could test out 96hz for myself before making any decisions.
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post #17384 of 17738 Old 07-11-2017, 02:02 PM
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I wish I could test out 96hz for myself before making any decisions.
No jvc/Sony dealer near you?

Jvc/Sony are 96hz
Epson is 120hz but has a lot more crosstalk than jvc

So it's either flicker or crosstalk, unfortunately. Might be worth exploring whether flicker or crosstalk bothers you more for jvc vs Epson 3d.
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No jvc/Sony dealer near you?

Jvc/Sony are 96hz
Epson is 120hz but has a lot more crosstalk than jvc

So it's either flicker or crosstalk, unfortunately. Might be worth exploring whether flicker or crosstalk bothers you more for jvc vs Epson 3d.
Not that I know of.

One more thing, for all the LCOS / 3LCD honks, is there even a PJ under $3K that you can recommend that has 18gbps input (HDR gaming)? I mean with all this talk about this stuff, I can't even find one PJ for under $4K that has 18gbps and allows HDR 4K (faux K whatever) gaming except the Optoma units.
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post #17386 of 17738 Old 07-11-2017, 02:12 PM
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Not that I know of.

One more thing, for all the LCOS / 3LCD honks, is there even a PJ under $3K that you can recommend that has 18gbps input (HDR gaming)? I mean with all this talk about this stuff, I can't even find one PJ for under $4K that has 18gbps and allows HDR 4K (faux K whatever) gaming except the Optoma units.
Vivitek HK2288 would be the one to go for for combo of RGBRGB wheel, acceptable input lag, 18gbps hdmi, 4k hdr, etc
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post #17387 of 17738 Old 07-11-2017, 02:16 PM
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Vivitek HK2288 would be the one to go for.
Yeah, or the UHD65 since I am not sure 80ms is going to be all that bad (3rd person adventure games mostly, not really twitch FPS type games). but i have a PS4 Pro, going to have an Xbox One X (I really love Forza and I want that 4K 60FPS HDR) and a 1080ti so you know I want 4K HDR.

I don't want to pay an extra grand for 30ms (2 frames per 60) when I don't play cod or antyhing like that.

Am I really the only person who likes gaming, 3D, 4K BluRays, and regular viewing (NFL etc)? Because Epson sure can't take a damn hint on the inputs...
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post #17388 of 17738 Old 07-11-2017, 02:16 PM
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Not that I know of.

One more thing, for all the LCOS / 3LCD honks, is there even a PJ under $3K that you can recommend that has 18gbps input (HDR gaming)? I mean with all this talk about this stuff, I can't even find one PJ for under $4K that has 18gbps and allows HDR 4K (faux K whatever) gaming except the Optoma units.
Not sure what the 420 street price is but it has full bandwidth inputs, HDR support and 3D support.

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post #17389 of 17738 Old 07-11-2017, 02:20 PM
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Not sure what the 420 street price is but it has full bandwidth inputs, HDR support and 3D support.
Hmm for some reason I thought the brightness on the 420 was lower, or maybe too low etc. What's the 520 got over the 420?

Also, what color gamut does the 420 actually support (not spec).
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Hmm for some reason I thought the brightness on the 420 was lower, or maybe too low etc. What's the 520 got over the 420?

Also, what color gamut does the 420 actually support (not spec).
520 has full 100% P3 coverage, dual aperture for substantial boost in contrast, more brightness. If you can spring for the 520 I would ALWAYS recommend that over the 420. But that is a different price. The 420 hits like 85% of P3 is I remember right, similar to what the Sony line is hitting.

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post #17391 of 17738 Old 07-11-2017, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
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@zombie10k - are you using a dual projector system for 3D?
There is DLP and then everything else when it comes to flicker. it's still there on the Epson projectors and you get x-talk as well.

I run the Sharp 30K 3D DLP's in an active stack. It sounds like you are going to need 2 projectors for now to cover all your viewing preferences.
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post #17392 of 17738 Old 07-11-2017, 02:32 PM
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Yeah, or the UHD65 since I am not sure 80ms is going to be all that bad (3rd person adventure games mostly, not really twitch FPS type games). but i have a PS4 Pro, going to have an Xbox One X (I really love Forza and I want that 4K 60FPS HDR) and a 1080ti so you know I want 4K HDR.
I'd test it if you can. My RS600 has about 125ms lag, and it's too much for Forza to be enjoyable, that's (lag) why I've still got my Planar 8150 (and frankly, the only reason). My Planar (16ms) is great, but I don't know where the threshold between is between 16 and 125 where it becomes a problem. I'd personally be weary of gaming on a machine with 2/3 of the lag that I find unacceptable on my RS600.
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post #17393 of 17738 Old 07-11-2017, 03:05 PM
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Wait the Optoma ZF2100 glasses work on your JVC? Or did I read that wrong? I have the ZF2300 glasses with the emitter I use on my optoma DLP 1080p unit and 3D is great. But you're saying for animated 3D you still use the Optoma over the JVC, that's interesting. What about movies like Avatar, The Walk, etc. I guess you use the JVC for that?

I am worried about flicker.

Yes ZF2100 emitter plugged in to the jvc is fine, I expected to have to adjust the emitter duty time for the slower panel refresh but the JVC adjusts the timing of the vesa 3d signal and everything works fine. I heard that the panel's final polarisation is opposite to most 3D glasses but for my screen it doesn't seem to matter.

I need to decide whether to try to find another zf2100 emitter and some more glasses so I don't need to swap it. Otherwise get the jvc emitter and there are lots of glasses available cheaply. Doubt I could use the jvc emitter on the dlp the 3d rf standard doesn't specify beyond 120Hz the dlp outputs 144.

I haven't watched Avatar since getting the jvc but it's a predominately dark film so would probably choose the jvc. Don't have the walk, inside out is coming up soon will probably use the Optoma for the first time in a while.
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post #17394 of 17738 Old 07-11-2017, 03:44 PM
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thanks for testing and posting feedback. I've done a lot of back and forth with 3D content on the UB900 source disk vs ISO / Dune 4K Solo and found no obvious differences between both devices, by all accounts the playback is identical. I'll check that scene later tonight to verify.

I gave up my MKV rips once I got the Dune and just added more storage since I like having the full BD available and it plays the menus perfect. please keep me posted on the experience with the Zidoo. thanks!
Sorry to interrupt the discourse on these new PJs, but ...

I think I've got a winner here with the Zidoo. Well, it took me 2 tries, but yea the Zidoo X8 executes the test of 3D streamer perfectly. I say 2 tries because the 1st unit was glitchy as hell and just to navigate the App Launch menu produced visual artifacts on the screen. I returned it and ordered a new one -- No problems and the unit is actually pretty quick!

Pointing the X8 to my HTPC share folder was a snap. Once in the Home Theater app I could see my movie rips-- both the ISO and MKVs. When you select a movie title that is an ISO you have the option of selecting "Play" or "Blu-Ray" -- Play takes you right to the main feature and starts playback. "Blu-Ray" gives you the full BD menu. This is a really nice feature and I appreciate having those options.

PQ looks spot on compared to disc playback on my Oppo203, but motion during playback (with JVC CMD on Low) looks a little smoother on the Oppo. I can't explain it, but the difference is negligible and doesn't distract while viewing. I will continue to monitor and compare titles.

Go spend some money if you're looking for a new streamer that does 3D (MVC) MKV + Full BD ISO.

All of the new models X8 / X9S / X10 have the same hardware, etc... They only differ in external SATA connections (X9S) and internal drive bay (X10).

The X8 performs marvelously (especially for the price!) and the Zapp is going back!
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post #17395 of 17738 Old 07-12-2017, 03:44 AM
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Originally Posted by sonichart View Post
Sorry to interrupt the discourse on these new PJs, but ...



I think I've got a winner here with the Zidoo. Well, it took me 2 tries, but yea the Zidoo X8 executes the test of 3D streamer perfectly. I say 2 tries because the 1st unit was glitchy as hell and just to navigate the App Launch menu produced visual artifacts on the screen. I returned it and ordered a new one -- No problems and the unit is actually pretty quick!



Pointing the X8 to my HTPC share folder was a snap. Once in the Home Theater app I could see my movie rips-- both the ISO and MKVs. When you select a movie title that is an ISO you have the option of selecting "Play" or "Blu-Ray" -- Play takes you right to the main feature and starts playback. "Blu-Ray" gives you the full BD menu. This is a really nice feature and I appreciate having those options.



PQ looks spot on compared to disc playback on my Oppo203, but motion during playback (with JVC CMD on Low) looks a little smoother on the Oppo. I can't explain it, but the difference is negligible and doesn't distract while viewing. I will continue to monitor and compare titles.



Go spend some money if you're looking for a new streamer that does 3D (MVC) MKV + Full BD ISO.



All of the new models X8 / X9S / X10 have the same hardware, etc... They only differ in external SATA connections (X9S) and internal drive bay (X10).



The X8 performs marvelously (especially for the price!) and the Zapp is going back!


Very interesting, I'd like to get to the bottom of this motion issue though. One persons doesn't distract is another's unwatchable, I'm usually that other person...


I've been following the Zappity's development since seeing them at ISE but it hasn't been sounding promising so far. I'm looking to replace several Mede8ers 600X3D and want UHD HDR playback at 59.94fps and 23.976. But we have a large collection of mvc 3d mkvs that I really don't fancy re-ripping.
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post #17396 of 17738 Old 07-12-2017, 04:38 AM
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Very interesting, I'd like to get to the bottom of this motion issue though. One persons doesn't distract is another's unwatchable, I'm usually that other person...


I've been following the Zappity's development since seeing them at ISE but it hasn't been sounding promising so far. I'm looking to replace several Mede8ers 600X3D and want UHD HDR playback at 59.94fps and 23.976. But we have a large collection of mvc 3d mkvs that I really don't fancy re-ripping.
The best way to describe the motion issue is while watching the Oppo the motion looks a touch more smooth, more SOE (Which in 3D, doesn't bother me and I kinda like it haha).

With the Zidoo, motion still looks good but there is less of the SOE -- and that is all that I'm really noticing. Less SOE with the Zidoo than the Oppo. And I have no idea why.

My first test will be to simply switch the HDMI inputs on the Oppo and Zidoo to see if the AVR is doing something that I missed.

The Oppo is set to Auto everything as is the Zidoo(auto resolution, bit depth, deep color), except I turned Deep Color OFF on the Zidoo thinking 1080p 3D rips wont be anything higher than 8-bit color. While doing A/B testing with the Oppo, I noticed that the JVC is receiving a 12-bit signal from the Oppo (i forgot to look at the info screen on the Oppo).

The motion issues is minor minor minor, in fact most people would probably say LESS Soap Opera Effect is a good thing. I'm just observing that there is a difference between the Oppo and Zidoo. I consider what the Oppo is putting out to be reference.

So now I just need to hunt down what is causing the JVC to put out a slightly more smooth (more SOE) picture with the Oppo and the Zidoo.

I intend to do more testing today after work.

edit: Something else that has occured to me. I've only been testing Force Awakens for this motion anomaly. Specifically the scene of the movie when the Millenium Falcon escapes Jakku. I haven't compared any other movies (yet). However, when ripping this movie with MakeMKV I got several errors like this:

AV sync issue in stream 1,2,3,4 at 0:59:01.037 with duration of 18.5ms : encountered overlapping frame, audio skew is +18.5ms

So I'm wondering if this has something to do with the motion looking less slippery/SOE with the Zidoo?

@zombie10k what are you using to rip ISOs to your NAS? I don't think MakeMKV will rip ISOs.

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Last edited by sonichart; 07-12-2017 at 05:22 AM.
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post #17397 of 17738 Old 07-12-2017, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
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I'll send you a pm..

I just ordered the X8 to take a look at. I still have my mede8ter's here and also the dune which is flawless with both 2D and 3D BD ISO.
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post #17398 of 17738 Old 07-14-2017, 01:28 PM - Thread Starter
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friday night media player party... @sonichart thanks for the heads up, looking forward to testing this out tonight.



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post #17399 of 17738 Old 07-14-2017, 08:56 PM
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I'll send you a pm..

I just ordered the X8 to take a look at. I still have my mede8ter's here and also the dune which is flawless with both 2D and 3D BD ISO.
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post #17400 of 17738 Old 07-14-2017, 09:14 PM
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friday night media player party... @sonichart thanks for the heads up, looking forward to testing this out tonight.



Let me know ASAP, because I will buy two of these if they are good.

Be great for the TV in the bedroom accessing the fileserve for full MKV rips, and of course for the PJ to play 3d ISO's, please let me know how it handles both.

And how good is the media scraper with matching films to posters etc, I love the way Kodi works now and would love to see something close to that upstairs in the bedroom. 1100 movies browsing by text titles is a truly ugly thing!

OH and with the DUNE being $500 in my country, and the Zidoo being $150, I would love to know where the $350 price delta is justified IF the Dune still turns out to be better... Being that I do NOT need to insert a HDD into it and it will only ever be accessing files through gigabit E.

JVC X9500 (RS620) | OZTS Majestic 120" 16:9 | Marantz AV7702 MkII | Emotiva XPA-7 | Rotel RMB-1555B | DIY Javelin Audio TPL-150 L/C/R | DIY Faital MTM TPL-150 Surrounds | DIY Dolby Atmos MKII Modules | DIY Quad 18" Subs 30cf Net
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