Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 583 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #17461 of 18249 Old 07-19-2017, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
as soon as it arrived I updated it to this firmware below, what firmware are you running?

http://forum.zidoo.tv/index.php?thre...released.5351/

That is the X8 in that screenshot above, just paused on the frame. This is using the built in media player, I did not use ZDMC app.
Oh!

Downloading...

Stupid to not just support internet firmware, my unit updated firmware right out of the box, but only to 1.2 something, I just assumed it was the latest...

I am assuming when they say Udisk they mean any USB Hard drive?

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post #17462 of 18249 Old 07-19-2017, 07:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Oh!

Downloading...

Stupid to not just support internet firmware, my unit updated firmware right out of the box, but only to 1.2 something, I just assumed it was the latest...

I am assuming when they say Udisk they mean any USB Hard drive?

I did some reading before it arrived, it's odd that such a newer version was download only. There are 2 separate downloads, 1 for the main OS and an .apk just for an updated ZDMC

when playing back UHD HDR I had to set it to 2160 first. It wasn't auto-switching from the 1080 dashboard even though it's one of the options. let me know if you run into a similar experience. It does play the UHD HDR files though! impressive for such little cost.
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post #17463 of 18249 Old 07-19-2017, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
I did some reading before it arrived, it's odd that such a newer version was download only. There are 2 separate downloads, 1 for the main OS and an .apk just for an updated ZDMC

when playing back UHD HDR I had to set it to 2160 first. It wasn't auto-switching from the 1080 dashboard even though it's one of the options. let me know if you run into a similar experience. It does play the UHD HDR files though! impressive for such little cost.
Have not tested it on the PJ just yet, just the Sammy KS8000.

Updated firmware, wow what a difference! The OS is cleaner now too, and BD Menus seem to work, good enough for me. This thing will mainly be my 3S ISO hub. Will test how it all goes later...

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post #17464 of 18249 Old 07-19-2017, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Part of the issue about people calling it "native 4K" is there are a few people posting on the forum who seem to want to advocate for XPR because they're a fan of DLP even though they've never even seen XPR in action or the pixel shifting competition these XPR units are competing against. That's a real problem. They have no clue about what they're talking about but they try and make it seem like they do. Everything they say is based on anecdotal evidence or hyped up untrue marketing claims.
The whole attitude of, "I should say anything that might help my team, regardless of whether it is logical" is pretty sad to see on the AVScience forum, IMO.

One example I've seen is claiming that people should want 4 million mirrors on their DLP chips because resolution is so important, but if they care about contrast ratio at all they wouldn't want 8 million mirrors. Kind of ignores that much of the reason these XPR projectors have such poor contrast ratio is because they went with 4 million mirrors (which helped their marketing claims) instead of 2 million mirrors, when single chip DLP would have already been pretty sharp and detailed with 1080p+eShift, especially since the higher on/off CR would have helped the perception of high resolution for some images.

Another example is one claim that a person is trying to emulate commercial theaters that have about 2000:1 on/off CR, but now claims that if a projector actually had 2000:1 native on/off CR they would also want a good dynamic system that they could enable. If a person was actually trying to emulate 2000:1 on/off CR projectors that have no dynamic system they most definitely would not enable any dynamic system on a 2000:1 native on/off CR projector, no matter how good it was. Fortunately, there are only a limited number of posters who will post pretty much anything to help their "team".

Hopefully we won't need to start calling this the AVMarketing forum.

--Darin
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post #17465 of 18249 Old 07-20-2017, 04:37 AM
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@zombie10k how is the picture quality of Zidoo vs dune solo? Thank you
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post #17466 of 18249 Old 07-20-2017, 04:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
To be fair, Kris did give BenQ the option to decline him to do the review despite his initial poor assessment of the unit overall, so they're kind of asking for a net negative review to be published.
Well that was kind of my point, not so much the review, but that it's so bad. Can't recall Kris ever mentioning suggesting pulling a review before (not that I really follow that closely). Granted the one he got was a ~$10k machine, but still, what he found seems consistent with what everyone else who's actually see one of these new DLPs (and who actually has experience with a wide range of projectors) has found.

Quote:
Part of the issue about people calling it "native 4K" is there are a few people posting on the forum who seem to want to advocate for XPR because they're a fan of DLP even though they've never even seen XPR in action or the pixel shifting competition these XPR units are competing against. That's a real problem. They have no clue about what they're talking about but they try and make it seem like they do. Everything they say is based on anecdotal evidence or hyped up untrue marketing claims.
I will say (again), I don't have a problem with XPR, I think pixel shifting is a novel technology that definitely deserves a place in our HTs. But we need to be honest about what it is, and what it isn't. It's really disappointing to see so many manufacturers never mention the native resolution, for all the flack JVC got with e-Shift, at least they put 1080p native resolution on the spec sheet.
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post #17467 of 18249 Old 07-20-2017, 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted by darinp View Post
The whole attitude of, "I should say anything that might help my team, regardless of whether it is logical" is pretty sad to see on the AVScience forum, IMO.

One example I've seen is claiming that people should want 4 million mirrors on their DLP chips because resolution is so important, but if they care about contrast ratio at all they wouldn't want 8 million mirrors. Kind of ignores that much of the reason these XPR projectors have such poor contrast ratio is because they went with 4 million mirrors (which helped their marketing claims) instead of 2 million mirrors, when single chip DLP would have already been pretty sharp and detailed with 1080p+eShift, especially since the higher on/off CR would have helped the perception of high resolution for some images.

Another example is one claim that a person is trying to emulate commercial theaters that have about 2000:1 on/off CR, but now claims that if a projector actually had 2000:1 native on/off CR they would also want a good dynamic system that they could enable. If a person was actually trying to emulate 2000:1 on/off CR projectors that have no dynamic system they most definitely would not enable any dynamic system on a 2000:1 native on/off CR projector, no matter how good it was. Fortunately, there are only a limited number of posters who will post pretty much anything to help their "team".

Hopefully we won't need to start calling this the AVMarketing forum.

--Darin
Interesting, can't disagree. The short time I have been on here it really should be called the JVC forum not the AVScience forum. If someone doesn't like the JVC then they are trashed. Picture can be as much taste as it is science just like sound. I like a lot of bass and my wife hates it. Take the LG OLED vs the Sony QLED. Sony has a better looking picture but spec wise it is not as good as the LG.

I love how all of these people spout off specs but ignore how the specs react in the environment and other factors. I guarantee my projector looks different in my theater than others with the same projector. My Stewart Screen. My Dark walls on and on. It is a package and many people ignore that.
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post #17468 of 18249 Old 07-20-2017, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
when playing back UHD HDR I had to set it to 2160 first. It wasn't auto-switching from the 1080 dashboard even though it's one of the options. let me know if you run into a similar experience. It does play the UHD HDR files though! impressive for such little cost.
It just occurred to me that you might be using the ZDMC app for playback. Have you tried using the Home Theater App?

With my X8 set to auto-everything (res, colorspace, deep color), using the Home Theater app BD-ISO Full Menu works well, though maybe my inexperience is cause for me overlooking something. But I wonder if full menus work better in your setup with the HT App.

Also, with auto everything and HT App, I am able to play a 3D MKV and it jumps to 1080 (FP) ... if I try a UHD Democlip it auto detects 2160p as well.

Inititally, UHD playback didn't work and I think it was due to me uninstalling the ZDMC App. I re-downloaded the ZDMC 17.1 APK and that flipped a switch the HT App to play UHD material at 2160p.

It is within the HT App that I am able to hit "Menu" during 3D playback and set 3D subtitles depth to 8 (as well as 3D OSD... 3D video is set to 0 as the default setting of 2 created ghosting in my Episode VII testing).

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post #17469 of 18249 Old 07-20-2017, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by BondDonBond View Post
...Take the LG OLED vs the Sony QLED. Sony has a better looking picture but spec wise it is not as good as the LG.
Sony QLED? Did you mean Samsung QLED or Sony OLED?

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post #17470 of 18249 Old 07-20-2017, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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It just occurred to me that you might be using the ZDMC app for playback. Have you tried using the Home Theater App?

With my X8 set to auto-everything (res, colorspace, deep color), using the Home Theater app BD-ISO Full Menu works well, though maybe my inexperience is cause for me overlooking something. But I wonder if full menus work better in your setup with the HT App.

Also, with auto everything and HT App, I am able to play a 3D MKV and it jumps to 1080 (FP) ... if I try a UHD Democlip it auto detects 2160p as well.

Inititally, UHD playback didn't work and I think it was due to me uninstalling the ZDMC App. I re-downloaded the ZDMC 17.1 APK and that flipped a switch the HT App to play UHD material at 2160p.

It is within the HT App that I am able to hit "Menu" during 3D playback and set 3D subtitles depth to 8 (as well as 3D OSD... 3D video is set to 0 as the default setting of 2 created ghosting in my Episode VII testing).

All my testing so far was with the latest firmware and exclusively the HT app. I didn't use the ZDMC app even though I updated it to 17.1. I'll have to try again to see why auto-switching wasn't working for me with the UHD HDR content. It jumps around fine between 1080P 60, 24 and 24FP.

I think the Dune is still a bit better with the 3D sub-titles, it can pop out way more than Z8 can even with depth set to 8 but this is a minor concern. There isn't much to complaint about for a bit over $100.

@cemo62 - I will do a direct compare later this week, I have them both hooked up at the same time and can A/B to see if any obvious differences.
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post #17471 of 18249 Old 07-20-2017, 10:44 AM
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Sony QLED? Did you mean Samsung QLED or Sony OLED?

Dave
Sorry OLED....all of this is giving me PDSD
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post #17472 of 18249 Old 07-20-2017, 12:10 PM
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Interesting, can't disagree. The short time I have been on here it really should be called the JVC forum not the AVScience forum.
Because there is hardly any competition anymore other than a couple Laser projectors...

Highest Native Contrast = JVC
Sharpest Non-DLP Image = JVC
Best Pseudo 4k = JVC
Good Reliability = JVC
Far Far Superior 3d = JVC

Contrast Loss Over Time = Sony
Less Sharp Lens = Sony
1/4 to 1/10th the contrast = Sony
Double the price of JVC for similar spec = Sony

And Epson = LCD, which is BLAH YOU SEE...

And DLP = DEAD TO ME...

DLP is a nothing burger at this point.
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post #17473 of 18249 Old 07-20-2017, 01:06 PM
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I think you'll find that most here don't have a problem if someone comes in and says they saw both, and preferred one. The problems tend to start when folks come in and start making opinion statements as fact, especially when they contradict the findings of many others.
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post #17474 of 18249 Old 07-20-2017, 01:49 PM
 
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Just got a response back from TI about this .67' XPR DMD and associated controller:

Quote:
The DLP660TE [.67" XPR DMD] is intended for use in a 4K UHD system and supports UHD displays. Furthermore, these displays must run at 50Hz or 60Hz. The front end processor will convert any input frame rate to either 50Hz or 60Hz.If the input is an integer multiple of 50Hz or 60 Hz, the front end will use 2:2 pulldown, otherwise it will use 3:2 pulldown. These configurations are not currently programmable. Any source with a resolution lower than UHD will be upscaled by the front end processor to UHD. The DLPC4422 controller does allow different levels of control to drive the DMD, but it’s the decision of the system integrator on how to configure the final system.
So it looks like 3:2 pulldown is the only way to do 24p with this current controller and DMD. That's another knock against DLP as we move forward.
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post #17475 of 18249 Old 07-20-2017, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
So it looks like 3:2 pulldown is the only way to do 24p with this current controller and DMD.
Do you know what the JVCs and/or Epsons do with eShift and 24p material? Do they run at 96Hz, with 48Hz for each sub-frame, or at 120Hz with 60Hz per sub-frame?

Thanks,
Darin
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post #17476 of 18249 Old 07-20-2017, 02:06 PM
 
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Do you know what the JVCs and/or Epsons do with eShift and 24p material? Do they run at 96Hz, with 48Hz for each sub-frame, or at 120Hz with 60Hz per sub-frame?

Thanks,
Darin
In 2D mode with eshift off, I believe the JVCs runs at 4:4 pulldown (96hz). In 3D mode and with eshift engaged, I think everything runs at 120hz. But even at 120hz (60hz per subframe) judder should not be added to a 24p source. The subfields are flashed in sequence to create one frame, not the same frame shown multiple times like you see with 3:2 pulldown. With 3D, I think the JVCs are forced to do 3:2 pulldown though.
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post #17477 of 18249 Old 07-20-2017, 02:15 PM
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But even at 120hz (60hz per subframe) judder should not be added to a 24p source. The subfields are flashed in sequence to create one frame, not the same frame shown multiple times like you see with 3:2 pulldown.
Wouldn't that require that one subfield get flashed more times than the other subfield?

Using rounded numbers from 120Hz:

24Hz = 40 msec
60Hz = 16 msec
96Hz = 10 msec
120Hz = 8 msec

So, 5 flashes per 24p frame for 120Hz. They could flash one sub-frame 3 times and one sub-frame 2 times, or like you mentioned with 96Hz they could flash each sub-frame twice per 24p frame.

--Darin
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post #17478 of 18249 Old 07-20-2017, 02:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by darinp View Post
Wouldn't that require that one subfield get flashed more times than the other subfield?

Using rounded numbers from 120Hz:

24Hz = 40 msec
60Hz = 16 msec
96Hz = 10 msec
120Hz = 8 msec

So, 5 flashes per 24p frame for 120Hz. They could flash one sub-frame 3 times and one sub-frame 2 times, or like you mentioned with 96Hz they could flash each sub-frame twice per 24p frame.

--Darin
It might just be 3D that is forced at 120hz. I don't notice any judder with a 24p 2D source with eshift engaged.
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post #17479 of 18249 Old 07-20-2017, 02:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Just got a response back from TI about this .67' XPR DMD and associated controller:

Quote:
The DLP660TE [.67" XPR DMD] is intended for use in a 4K UHD system and supports UHD displays. Furthermore, these displays must run at 50Hz or 60Hz. The front end processor will convert any input frame rate to either 50Hz or 60Hz.If the input is an integer multiple of 50Hz or 60 Hz, the front end will use 2:2 pulldown, otherwise it will use 3:2 pulldown. These configurations are not currently programmable. Any source with a resolution lower than UHD will be upscaled by the front end processor to UHD. The DLPC4422 controller does allow different levels of control to drive the DMD, but it’s the decision of the system integrator on how to configure the final system.
So it looks like 3:2 pulldown is the only way to do 24p with this current controller and DMD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
That's another knock against DLP as we move forward.

how would you compare the UHD65 24p playback vs. the .95 Runco/Planar?
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post #17480 of 18249 Old 07-20-2017, 02:48 PM
 
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So it looks like 3:2 pulldown is the only way to do 24p with this current controller and DMD.




how would you compare the UHD65 24p playback vs. the .95 Runco/Planar?
The Planar does 2:2 proper pulldown for a 24p source at 48Hz. So it's judder vs no judder. lol
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post #17481 of 18249 Old 07-20-2017, 02:50 PM
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It might just be 3D that is forced at 120hz. I don't notice any judder with a 24p 2D source with eshift engaged.
I have an old Casio camera that does 1000 fps at low resolution. With a fast pan from a 24p source I might be able to figure out how many times each eShift sub-frame is shown, but might not be high enough resolution for that. I could probably figure out whether it is doing 3:2 pulldown though, but I don't have an eShift projector at the moment.

For those with high fps slow motion modes on their phones (like 250 fps I have on my iPhone) it should be possible to figure out whether it is showing every 24p frame the same number of times, or some frames more than others (e.g. 3:2 pulldown).

I recall in the DVD days there were some test patterns on the AVIA disc that had objects going horizontally across the screen at different rates.

--Darin
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post #17482 of 18249 Old 07-20-2017, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
So it looks like 3:2 pulldown is the only way to do 24p with this current controller and DMD. That's another knock against DLP as we move forward.
One thing I think we should keep in mind is that for those who like frame interpolation (even on low) this issue really should be a non-factor.

For those who want a 24p cadence it is of course an issue.

And for those who are actually trying to emulate the theater experience this should be an issue. They shouldn't be using frame interpolation either.

Of course, if they only said they were trying to emulate the commercial theater experience because they thought it would help their team, then it would be understandable that they would find a way to try to win more points for their team by dismissing this issue.

--Darin
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post #17483 of 18249 Old 07-20-2017, 03:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by darinp View Post
One thing I think we should keep in mind is that for those who like frame interpolation (even on low) this issue really should be a non-factor.

For those who want a 24p cadence it is of course an issue.

And for those who are actually trying to emulate the theater experience this should be an issue. They shouldn't be using frame interpolation either.

Of course, if they only said they were trying to emulate the commercial theater experience because they thought it would help their team, then it would be understandable that they would find a way to try to win more points for their team by dismissing this issue.

--Darin
Yes, it would be odd if they were trying to dismiss this omission of proper film cadence as no big deal or not a deal breaker for them, especially when these people have been talking about recreating that "cinema" experience so much in the past.
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post #17484 of 18249 Old 07-20-2017, 04:15 PM
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Fifth Element be damned, I gotta say im pretty excited for Blade Runner in UHD.

Since we know there is a real 4k master of that film (and I have seen it projected as such) it should be quite special.

Atmos Audio, HDR. Interested to see how it looks.

Even more interested to see what the film grain looks like.
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post #17485 of 18249 Old 07-20-2017, 04:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by darinp View Post
I have an old Casio camera that does 1000 fps at low resolution. With a fast pan from a 24p source I might be able to figure out how many times each eShift sub-frame is shown, but might not be high enough resolution for that. I could probably figure out whether it is doing 3:2 pulldown though, but I don't have an eShift projector at the moment.

For those with high fps slow motion modes on their phones (like 250 fps I have on my iPhone) it should be possible to figure out whether it is showing every 24p frame the same number of times, or some frames more than others (e.g. 3:2 pulldown).

I recall in the DVD days there were some test patterns on the AVIA disc that had objects going horizontally across the screen at different rates.

--Darin
I'll have to see if any of the test discs I have include any motion test patterns.
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post #17486 of 18249 Old 07-20-2017, 05:46 PM
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I think you'll find that most here don't have a problem if someone comes in and says they saw both, and preferred one. The problems tend to start when folks come in and start making opinion statements as fact, especially when they contradict the findings of many others.
I think I understand you but to make sure. My opinion is my fact based upon my experience. But an option without experience is not fact.

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post #17487 of 18249 Old 07-20-2017, 05:58 PM
 
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I think I understand you but to make sure. My opinion is my fact based upon my experience. But an option without experience is not fact.
Your opinion is only fact to you, not a fact for others. That's because your "fact" is a subjective, not objective, take on something. My "fact" is that the UHD65, while good on it's own, is not a projector that can compete with most $3000+ projectors. I back that up with my subjective first hand viewing of these projectors but also the objective measurements as real facts to show why this is. The UHD65 does not have the objective brightness, contrast, motion, color, video processing, lens quality or placement and setup flexibility to give most of these $3000+ projectors a run for their money. In the sub $3000 market that is obviously a different story, especially when we look at the other DLP competition in that price range. It's unfortunate that we haven't seen the performance of the higher end 1080p projectors that came out a decade ago come down to that price segment yet. They're still worse off when it comes to things like on/off contrast, ANSI contrast, placement flexibility and image sharpness. With the manufacturing choices TI has made with this new DMD, I don't think that will ever happen.

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post #17488 of 18249 Old 07-20-2017, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Your opinion is only fact to you, not a fact for others. That's because your "fact" is a subjective, not objective, take on something. My "fact" is that the UHD65, while good on it's own, is not a projector that can compete with most $3000+ projectors. I back that up with my subjective first hand viewing of these projectors but also the objective measurements as real facts to show why this is. The UHD65 does not have the objective brightness, contrast, motion, color, video processing, lens quality or placement and setup flexibility to give most of these $3000+ projectors a run for their money. In the sub $3000 market that is obviously a different story, especially when we look at the other DLP competition in that price range. It's unfortunate that we haven't seen the performance of the higher end 1080p projectors that came out a decade ago come down to that price segment yet. They're still worse off when it comes to things like on/off contrast, ANSI contrast, placement flexibility and image sharpness. With the manufacturing choices TI has made with this new DMD, I don't think that will ever happen.
Last I checked it was a sub $3000 projector not competing in a $3000+ market but you keep comparing it to something it is not. For the price it is a nice projector. Don't worry "your team" is just fine it has plenty of supporters on this JVC forum.

Real sad that people can't have a decent discussion without getting nasty. Not everyone on this forum does this for a living or are video engineers. They may just be ordinary people wanting to have some video fun.
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post #17489 of 18249 Old 07-20-2017, 07:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BondDonBond View Post
Last I checked it was a sub $3000 projector not competing in a $3000+ market but you keep comparing it to something it is not. For the price it is a nice projector. Don't worry "your team" is just fine it has plenty of supporters on this JVC forum.

Real sad that people can't have a decent discussion without getting nasty. Not everyone on this forum does this for a living or are video engineers. They may just be ordinary people wanting to have some video fun.
Unfortunately there are people on the forum who've brought the UHD65 discussion into this subforum through the UHZ65 thread. They also tried to insinuate that the UHD65 was capable of giving these more expensive projectors competition for image quality. That's the main reason why comparisons to it with more expensive projectors have been done. The UHZ65 will be much the same as the UHD65 in overall performance. The spec'ed ~20% increase in performance won't mean much in the way of overall image quality as it would need massive gains in all areas of performance to go head to head with the other $3000+ projectors.

Also, I don't have a "team". I just go to where the best image I can afford takes me. It doesn't matter the brand. Just a few years ago, I wouldn't have dreamed about owning a JVC projector as they were all around poor performing. Their only claim to fame was on/off contrast. High gains in lumen output, image sharpness, motion, video processing and lens quality have been made in the subsequent years. Things changed and so did my opinion on them. The difference between you, me, and many others on the forum is that I've been fortunate enough to own just about every single projector we discuss here in this subforum. See here. I don't base any of my opinions on second or third hand experience like many others seem to want to do. The reason why I own a JVC is simply because I've seen just about every worthwhile image out there and continue to make the same conclusion; the JVC has the best all around image. It's the one projector brand that NEVER makes you feel the image is lacking in any area of performance. Every single other projector out there has at least one area where you'd say to yourself "I wish it was a little better with this". That doesn't happen with my JVC. Sure it might not have the best ANSI contrast or the best motion performance, but you never run into a situation where you'd say "that looked bad". That is why I keep my JVC projector. If Sony or Epson or Optoma made this projector it'd still be the one I'd buy. I don't care about a particular brand or technology as some seem to want to do. I'd switch to a DLP projector in a heartbeat if it were to give me a better image and that's the truth. So if you want to label me a "brand man", feel free to see all the projectors I've seen to do proper comparisons and if you come to a different conclusion then we can have a real discussion to see if that label is fitting.

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post #17490 of 18249 Old 07-20-2017, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Unfortunately there are people on the forum who've brought the UHD65 discussion into this subforum through the UHZ65 thread. That's the main reason why comparisons to it with more expensive projectors have been done. The UHZ65 will be much the same as the UHD65 in overall performance. The spec'ed ~20% increase in performance won't mean much in the way of overall image quality as it would need massive gains in all areas of performance to go head to head with the other $3000+ projectors.

Also, I don't have a "team". I just go to where the best image I can afford takes me. It doesn't matter the brand. Just a few years ago, I wouldn't have dreamed about owning a JVC projector as they were all around poor performing. Their only claim to fame was on/off contrast. High gains in lumen output, image sharpness, motion, video processing and lens quality have been made in the subsequent years. Things changed and so did my opinion on them. The difference between you, me, and many others on the forum is that I've been fortunate enough to own just about every single projector we discuss here in this subforum. See here. I don't base any of my opinions on second or third hand experience like many others seem to want to do. The reason why I own a JVC is simply because I've seen just about every worthwhile image out there and continue to make the same conclusion; the JVC has the best all around image. It's the one projector brand that NEVER makes you feel the image is lacking in any area of performance. Every single other projector out there has at least one area where you'd say to yourself "I wish it was a little better with this". That doesn't happen with my JVC. Sure it might not have the best ANSI contrast or the best motion performance, but you never run into a situation where you'd say "that looked bad". That is why I keep my JVC projector. If Sony or Epson or Optoma made this projector it'd still be the one I'd buy. I don't care about a particular brand or technology as some seem to want to do. I'd switch to a DLP projector in a heartbeat if it were to give me a better image and that's the truth. So if you want to label me a "brand man", feel free to see all the projectors I've seen to do proper comparisons and if you come to a different conclusion then we can have a real discussion to see if that label is fitting.
I understand your position and respect it. I don't give out my opinion unless I actually have tested or compared products either. As I have stated many times the JVC image to me was not as nice as the Sony. Not drastic but definitely a difference we noticed. So you have you opinion of the best picture and I have mine. We can agree that we disagree and move on.
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