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post #18181 of 18196 Old Yesterday, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
I think I see flicker....and banding...gross
Do you know, I...... I think I can see it from here......
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post #18182 of 18196 Old Yesterday, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
The 3D in Ironman 4 is a lot of fun..
I see what you did there.....
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post #18183 of 18196 Old Yesterday, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
He is talking about eshift video noise, but at the same time claiming it wasn't there with clean digital content on the projector, and grainy films brought out the noise? Which is a head scratcher! Its either 100% there or its not, and grainy films are not going to make the mosquito noise (which does exist on an almost microscopic level) worse, in fact I am convinced this person has confused genuine film grain noise and shutter vibration from physical film cameras for noise, and comparing it to a 4k Sony which actively subdues noise.

As for the actual audio buzzing, its unit to unit, my PJ is about 3ft from my head, and I literally cannot hear eshift at all, I only hear the really quiet whirring of the fan, I actually specifically listened for this last night too since the silence in my theatre actually stood out to me at one point, and nope, no eshift buzz noise at all, none. YMMV though it seems based on other accounts.
I can only speak for the 1000es(and my rs600 model).

But having eye-balled the UHD's of Blade Runner(2007 directors cut) and Ghostbusters(1984) up close, I would categorically say that the Sony expresses all the grain with more fidelity than the Rs600.
Finely delineated detail and grain is rendered with greater clarity.
If the Sony was suppressing grain, then detail would be sacrificed, which is definitely not the case.
The Rs600 has more noise and less detail with the aforementioned catalogue titles.
This is not a swipe at the Rs600, which still displays a fabulous picture.
But with the grain heavy UHD catalogue titles , the 1000es walks away from the Rs600 with relative ease.

The 2K DI's on the other hand are a different kettle of fish.
I have X-Men 1st Class and Wonder Woman and the differences(in terms of sharpness/digital noise) are negligible.

Really hoping that we get UHDs for The Godfather, Taxi Driver ect ect so these discrepancies between 4k and 2k DI's can be examined.
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post #18184 of 18196 Old Yesterday, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TheSony4KRises View Post
I can only speak for the 1000es(and my rs600 model).

But having eye-balled the UHD's of Blade Runner(2007 directors cut) and Ghostbusters(1984) up close, I would categorically say that the Sony expresses all the grain with more fidelity than the Rs600.
Finely delineated detail and grain is rendered with greater clarity.
If the Sony was suppressing grain, then detail would be sacrificed, which is definitely not the case.
I also had the VW1100 and RS600 at the same time, the 1000/1100 processing is different than the 6xx / 3xx series. I've had the VW500/600 and VW665 here as well.

Have you seen these in person for comparison?
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post #18185 of 18196 Old Yesterday, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
Yea, it's there 100% , as I said that is a moot point now , commonly discussed around the globe . Trying to pick apart the fact I see it in digital material with grain more is nothing more that further denial of the same.

I'm the one hear left scratching my head that you would have the nerve to suggest this is something unique to me as a deflection away from what exists . Good luck with that . I can put endless comments here from around the planet and the same from within the walls of this forum , it's not MY problem , it's simply a reality . Question is, how bad is it.........................really.

It's the same mosquito noise that is in all content more noticeable with grain less so in digital content. Your argument when you vehemently denied it existed at all was that I was seeing grain. Grain as I explained then is on 100% of the movie image when present , little more obvious in certain areas . The Mosquito noise however is more obvious in isolated areas within a scene, looks just like the snow we would see on the old TV sets back in the day . Random dots flickering in the background, the movement of this would draw my eyes . Aarow recently commented when viewing the new RS Series seen in IFA Berlin " the noise normally seen on the RS500/600 series appears to be less on the new projector, watching the movie blade runner." Blade runner , the original movie used as reference , known to contain film grain , one that you use quite often in fact to dispel noise funny enough . Mosquito noise , aka the digital dance, business of image and so on , is not to be confused with the electronic buzzing e-shift produces engaged , that really didn't bother me at all, probably because most movies have considerable amount of sound anyway, drowns it out majority of the time .

Putting it in perspective, it's not like it's "blatantly" obvious 100% of the time, some particular movies, certain scenes, and certain content excite it more . Difference with this digital noise is it shows up in content across the spectrum , not in one isolated kind of content.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSony4KRises View Post
I can only speak for the 1000es(and my rs600 model).

But having eye-balled the UHD's of Blade Runner(2007 directors cut) and Ghostbusters(1984) up close, I would categorically say that the Sony expresses all the grain with more fidelity than the Rs600. Finely delineated detail and grain is rendered with greater clarity. If the Sony was suppressing grain, then detail would be sacrificed, which is definitely not the case. The Rs600 has more noise and less detail with the aforementioned catalogue titles. This is not a swipe at the Rs600, which still displays a fabulous picture.

But with the grain heavy UHD catalogue titles , the 1000es walks away from the Rs600 with relative ease.

The 2K DI's on the other hand are a different kettle of fish.
I have X-Men 1st Class and Wonder Woman and the differences(in terms of sharpness/digital noise) are negligible.

Really hoping that we get UHDs for The Godfather, Taxi Driver ect ect so these discrepancies between 4k and 2k DI's can be examined.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
I also had the VW1100 and RS600 at the same time, the 1000/1100 processing is different than the 6xx / 3xx series. I've had the VW500/600 and VW665 here as well.

Have you seen these in person for comparison?
You guys probably really think I am beating a dead horse here, but there are flags in all these posts about the JVC noise which I just cannot look past.

E-shift HAS mosquito noise if your nose is to the screen, go and look at ANY plasma television and you will see the same buzzing yet nobody ever complained about that. Hell go up to the screen and look at the horror that is micro posterization on the Sony, no brand is squeaky clean with your nose to the screen. The JVC's also have pulse width modulation flutter from the chair visible across the entire image on the screen. The Sony lamps can flicker and wobble themselves.

BUT if you are sitting in your chair and you see noise on either of these brands, its in the source, plain and simple!

Well here is an interesting exercise. The only shot I have that I can compare noise with across two brands is the skyline shot from Lucy, but the cool thing is, I now have a digital version of this film straight from the UHD Disc, so I can compare a proper source extract frame from the UHD DI, and the 2K DI, the Sony, and the JVC, and we can see which renders the grain closest to the source material.

We know the Sony pulls ahead in these shots rendering the windows and such where resolution is concerned, but that's not for discussion right now, all the bolded areas above still point to the end user seeing TRUE TO SOURCE film grain and its associated inherent noise. I know with these shootout images in the past, we have had people claim the JVC image was noise because it has 'Jacked contrast levels?' well I guess the below is difficult to contend with, its the ground truth, you CANNOT look past a source frame since that IS the source, end of story.

If a person thinks 35mm film does NOT have a metric ton of mosquito noise you are in for a rude shock.

I desaturated all the images so you can focus on the grain only. In each case, you should be looking at the sky only, its clean, and the films natural grain is right there on display.

Which one of these is rendering the grain and noise closest to the original source? Be honest.

UHD Source



JVC



Sony



Rollover:

UHD vs JVC

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/121077

UHD vs Sony

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/121078

Sony vs JVC

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/121079

2K DI

Source vs JVC

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/121081

Source vs Sony

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/121083

Sony vs JVC

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/121084
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Last edited by Javs; Yesterday at 02:45 PM.
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post #18186 of 18196 Old Yesterday, 03:30 PM
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Image noise is certainly more visible with the JVCs because it's more noticeable when compared with the likes of Epson and Sony (split screen direct comparison), and image noise is something I tend to notice since the days of DVD (compression artefacts etc). Also, JVC themselves has promoted eshift 5 as having less noise than previous versions. I sit at 2xSH and it's certainly visible from there. Sitting further back will lessen it's visibility of course.
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Quote:
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Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

I trust Gary Lightfoot more than James Cameron.
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post #18187 of 18196 Old Yesterday, 03:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
You guys probably really think I am beating a dead horse here, but there are flags in all these posts about the JVC noise which I just cannot look past.

E-shift HAS mosquito noise if your nose is to the screen, go and look at ANY plasma television and you will see the same buzzing yet nobody ever complained about that. Hell go up to the screen and look at the horror that is micro posterization on the Sony, no brand is squeaky clean with your nose to the screen. The JVC's also have pulse width modulation flutter from the chair visible across the entire image on the screen. The Sony lamps can flicker and wobble themselves.

BUT if you are sitting in your chair and you see noise on either of these brands, its in the source, plain and simple!

yep this is true... the current Sony's still have the color posterization up close. As long as nothing too offensive from seating distance each projector manufacturer is going to have specific nuances.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/120394

I sit ~14 feet from my 142" and don't see it at all and have had the Epson LS10K and Sony 600/665/1100 here for comparison.

Epson laser e-shift looks softer than the JVC to me with UHD content on my size screen so we end up picking what's best for our preferences.
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post #18188 of 18196 Old Yesterday, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSony4KRises View Post
I can only speak for the 1000es(and my rs600 model).

But having eye-balled the UHD's of Blade Runner(2007 directors cut) and Ghostbusters(1984) up close, I would categorically say that the Sony expresses all the grain with more fidelity than the Rs600.
Finely delineated detail and grain is rendered with greater clarity.
If the Sony was suppressing grain, then detail would be sacrificed, which is definitely not the case.
The Rs600 has more noise and less detail with the aforementioned catalogue titles.
This is not a swipe at the Rs600, which still displays a fabulous picture.
But with the grain heavy UHD catalogue titles , the 1000es walks away from the Rs600 with relative ease.

The 2K DI's on the other hand are a different kettle of fish.
I have X-Men 1st Class and Wonder Woman and the differences(in terms of sharpness/digital noise) are negligible.

Really hoping that we get UHDs for The Godfather, Taxi Driver ect ect so these discrepancies between 4k and 2k DI's can be examined.

Pretty sure you own the RS600, your observations and mine line up identically. Obviously, the VW1100 has an even sharper lens, the VW675 is however
very close . I actually have a UHD copy of the2007 Blade Runner , looing forward to it . I have most of the older classics as well , Godfather remastered
UHD would be great. Have most of these on HD, unfortunately I'm a sucker for the newest iterations, I consider myself the double dipping king .


I have the VW885 on the way, will enjoy revisiting these again on the new projector , cannot come soon enough .

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post #18189 of 18196 Old Yesterday, 04:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Those aren't my observations, I think the VW1000/1100 scaling and processing was way too aggressive and one of the reasons I sold it after an A/B with the 6xx models. I thought the internal processing was better and more natural appearing on the 6xx projectors.

Running MadVR for the scaling was much better but didn't want to be restricted to running an HTPC as primary source on a 25K projector. I don't miss that projector in the slightest but the lens was very nice. nicer than the base lens on the current 3xx/6xx series. it's still a sin they didn't put the 4K ARC lens on the VW760/885.
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post #18190 of 18196 Old Yesterday, 04:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSony4KRises View Post
So Zombie ol' chap


I finally pulled the trigger on the rs600 and have been putting it through it's paces by following some of the instructions you set out in the owners thread.Thanks.

In a word......wow.....I have been quite blown away actually.
Black levels are the best I have seen(or owned) in my set up.
The whites are are just as impressive.
Color reproduction is excellent as is sharpness.
I am using THX mode at the moment(as Ron Jones recommended in his review).

So far I have it stacked up against my trusty ol' Panny AE2000.
Its been a bit of a massacre in pretty much every department.

Off in the distance my 1000es(armed with it's ISCO 1.25) waits.
But without even comparing the 2 side by side......I know it's not going to be a contest in terms of contrast.

No bright corners that I have noticed either.
All in all my first impressions are that this is one hell of a machine.
it's been a few months since this post, still liking it or is the honeymoon over..
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post #18191 of 18196 Old Yesterday, 05:25 PM
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it's been a few months since this post, still liking it or is the honeymoon over..

I was impressed with the RS600 during the honeymoon phase too . Compared to a VW600 , contrast wise that is ,at first I was blown away . But honeymoons end , reality sets in once the lights are on , the shine comes off the armor , so to speak .


Not that it's always terrible, after the honeymoon , you just need the excitement to wear off before a more realistic long term assessment can be made, then the little things start to reveal itself .


Hard to make assessments of any equipment in the honeymoon phase , it's called that for a good reason .

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
I think I see flicker....and banding...gross

Nope that's mosquito noise , can see it from here .
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post #18193 of 18196 Old Yesterday, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
I was impressed with the RS600 during the honeymoon phase too . Compared to a VW600 , contrast wise that is ,at first I was blown away . But honeymoons end , reality sets in once the lights are on , the shine comes off the armor , so to speak .

Not that it's always terrible, after the honeymoon , you just need the excitement to wear off before a more realistic long term assessment can be made, then the little things start to reveal itself .

Hard to make assessments of any equipment in the honeymoon phase , it's called that for a good reason .

yes, the same thing happened with the VW1100. Impressive at first then the reality of the overcooked processing, 3D x-talk and that pesky massive contrast degradation kicked in. fix and sell, no chance of dealing with that again at that price point.

you can keep ragging on the JVC's but most here know they are a remarkable bang for the buck, one of the only 18GB capable projectors (no banding 4K/60 HDR) at a price way below the 25K US VW885 and that should have had the 4K ARC lens, not the same lens in the base 5K model.
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post #18194 of 18196 Old Yesterday, 07:39 PM
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yes, the same thing happened with the VW1100. Impressive at first then the reality of the overcooked processing, 3D x-talk and that pesky massive contrast degradation kicked in. fix and sell, no chance of dealing with that again at that price point.

you can keep ragging on the JVC's but most here know they are a remarkable bang for the buck, one of the only 18GB capable projectors (no banding 4K/60 HDR) at a price way below the 25K US VW885 and that should have had the 4K ARC lens, not the same lens in the base 5K model.

I refer you to post 18183 a few back. Like that person and , many others who have had both projectors , our experiences concur , same comments , same projector combination and from all across the globe . My experience mirrors his as do my many other friends , sorry it does not line up with yours . In fact, many of the friends I have made around the globe that share both these projectors never seem to argue about the differences. The discussions are more civil, talk about strengths for the most part , how to resolve issues and better tune the image . On this forum to ask a question about a real issue often becomes a major blowout and that is just sad .


BTW, you are very mistaken, I don't keep ragging on the JVC's . I respond to negatives started by others( see post 18181 a prime example) . I certainly don't mind
setting the record straight when something is exaggerated and blown out of context . Those jumping from thread to thread repeating the same negatives are initiating these exchanges , I'm the one that responds . I certainly have my own thoughts and opinions but I also don't have a campaign to go through every thread with an agenda only
to belittle other manufacturers . If I'm mentioned or otherwise brought into that foray , I feel justified to have a say . Those caught in the crossfire only see the smoke , never where the fire started .


I also don't mind saying the JVC is a fantastic projector , and I have recommended to those who I feel is the right fit , have owned plenty myself , until recently have
owned more JVC but I probably have crossed that line . I almost purchased the RS4500 this time to be honest had made a commitment to do so . For certain reasons
I changed my mind , the VW885 now going to be my next projector this time around .

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post #18195 of 18196 Old Yesterday, 07:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

The 3D in Ironman 4 is a lot of fun..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
I see what you did there.....

I'm glad someone got the joke.. The UHD arrived today, I just went through ~ 1/2 the movie. ATMOS track is excellent, A+ vs. the 5.1 track on the 3D but will have that fixed soon enough.

UHD HDR looks excellent and the WCG pops on the outdoor scenes. I did miss the work they put in the 3D though. don't want to give away any spoilers but if folks see the 3D BD there's a number of great scenes that look amazing.



another double dip! War of the Planet of the Apes 3D / UHD is next. I've been waiting all year to see this one, not even a single trailer.
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post #18196 of 18196 Old Yesterday, 11:03 PM
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Just an interesting thing to look at..

You guys want to see how good MadVR NGU scaling is?

Lets look at the UHD Bluray version of Lucy, a source extract frame from the digital file I have, and the same shot of the 2K Bluray version sent through MadVR NGU... See how close it gets...

To say this is impressive is a massive understatement. Lucy is a known reference UHD HDR title, and NGU is able to upscale a good copy of the 2K film so well that you actually can barely tell which is native UHD except for the colour difference.

First look at UHD BR vs 1080p with default enlargement, no MadVR. Clearly looks like traditional 1080p vs 4k right? No question which one is far sharper.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/121125

Then look at MadVR NGU.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/121124

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Shootout - JVC RS500 & Sony 320ES | My MadVR Settings
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