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post #18211 of 18236 Old Yesterday, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
The best comparison I've seen (copied from another forum) is Passengers 1080p Blu-Ray upscaled and compared to Passengers UHD Blu-Ray. Passengers is well suited for this, because the UHD is nicely sharp and detailed...
These are impressive... especially the NGU Sharp!

However, one thing you notice very quickly, on a macro level, is the large increase in contrast, when shifting from the UHD version to any of the upscales. I was wondering if this is an artifact of the 1080p Blu-ray source material, or something that MadVR is doing? Solid white areas in particular get a LOT brighter.
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post #18212 of 18236 Old Today, 12:48 AM
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Madshi, can you point me to a place where I can get info on pulling a good screengrab of a UHDBR HDR file
You can set the "screenshot" settings in madVR to 100% to get unscaled UHD screenshots (and 200% to get comparable 1080p Blu-Ray screenshots). Then you can use the screenshot functionality in any media player. I'm not sure why it doesn't work with DSPlayer for you. MPC-HC/BE, ZoomPlayer, PotPlayer or any other player should do the trick. You may want to manually switch HDR settings to "convert HDR to SDR by using pixel shader math", so you can select a specific nits value for the conversion (one that looks near to the 1080p Blu-Ray for comparisons).

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one thing you notice very quickly, on a macro level, is the large increase in contrast, when shifting from the UHD version to any of the upscales. I was wondering if this is an artifact of the 1080p Blu-ray source material, or something that MadVR is doing? Solid white areas in particular get a LOT brighter.
The studios apply a custom gamma curve for every 1080p Blu-Ray, and probably also for every UHD HDR Blu-Ray. madVR tries to create a good HDR -> SDR conversion, but whether that matches what the studio did for the 1080p Blu-Ray is not guaranteed. You can modify the HDR -> SDR conversion curves in madVR by changing the display's "peak nits" value in the HDR settings tab. Of course you can also apply other contrast or gamut changes in madVR. The Passengers 1080p Blu-Ray upscale screenshots are "untouched". I've selected 160 nits for the Passengers comparison. If you use a higher nits value, you will get more punchy contrasty images, but they will also get darker.
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post #18213 of 18236 Old Today, 07:15 AM
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Please make sure your browser doesn't zoom these, and have a look at all the fine and curves lines, not just the actors.
After noticing how well the diagonal lines were handled, and how sharp things seemed overall, my focus shifted to the wide drooping arc in the background, on a lighting panel behind the actors. That's pretty revealing, in that the bilinear and Lanczos scaling expose a fair amount of stair-stepping. Which is what one would expect. While the NGU Sharp does an exemplary job, rivaling the clean and smooth lines of the 4K UHD version. That is an impressive and well-tuned algorithm. Kudos!
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post #18214 of 18236 Old Today, 07:28 AM
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The studios apply a custom gamma curve for every 1080p Blu-Ray, and probably also for every UHD HDR Blu-Ray. madVR tries to create a good HDR -> SDR conversion, but whether that matches what the studio did for the 1080p Blu-Ray is not guaranteed.
While this clearly isn't a match, I'd say that the 1080p version seems a bit exaggerated on whites.

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You can modify the HDR -> SDR conversion curves in madVR by changing the display's "peak nits" value in the HDR settings tab. Of course you can also apply other contrast or gamut changes in madVR. The Passengers 1080p Blu-Ray upscale screenshots are "untouched". I've selected 160 nits for the Passengers comparison. If you use a higher nits value, you will get more punchy contrasty images, but they will also get darker.
That's good to know. I think the setting used was a good balance, that preserved the dark-level details well. Though as you say, some may prefer a higher nits level, for more contrast. This scene is very easy on the eyes, but seems a bit "muted". Perhaps that is only in comparison to the 1080p version. But I don't think you can judge the appropriateness of settings for an entire film, based on a single frame.
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post #18215 of 18236 Old Today, 07:33 AM
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That's good to know. I think the setting used was a good balance, that preserved the dark-level details well. Though as you say, some may prefer a higher nits level, for more contrast. This scene is very easy on the eyes, but seems a bit "muted". Perhaps that is only in comparison to the 1080p version. But I don't think you can judge the appropriateness of settings for an entire film, based on a single frame.
Agreed. I used 160 nits for this comparison to make the overall brightness (not contrast) comparable, but I usually prefer a higher nits level for real time playback, because it looks more HDR like that way. Default value in madVR for HDR -> SDR conversion is even 400 nits, although that might be a tad high for us projector users, I suppose.
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post #18216 of 18236 Old Today, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Agreed. I used 160 nits for this comparison to make the overall brightness (not contrast) comparable, but I usually prefer a higher nits level for real time playback, because it looks more HDR like that way. Default value in madVR for HDR -> SDR conversion is even 400 nits, although that might be a tad high for us projector users, I suppose.
Is there an advantage doing the HDR tone mapping down to typical projector brightness levels inside the projector vs. inside the player? If not, can an SDR projector with equal maximum light output (and MadVR tone mapping) produce similar results to a projector with native HDR support? I don't remember what bit-depths the older SDR JVC projectors were able to resolve. I know the new upper tier models claim to have full 12-bit paths all the way down to the panel itself. All consumer flat panels I'm aware of seem to be limited to 10-bit.

I suppose you would also need a way to defeat the default SDR gamma curve if doing external tone mapping in order to get similar bit distribution.

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post #18217 of 18236 Old Today, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Agreed. I used 160 nits for this comparison to make the overall brightness (not contrast) comparable, but I usually prefer a higher nits level for real time playback, because it looks more HDR like that way. Default value in madVR for HDR -> SDR conversion is even 400 nits, although that might be a tad high for us projector users, I suppose.
Is 160 nits a value you would recommend as a starting point to use with 1080p non HDR projectors?
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post #18218 of 18236 Old Today, 09:50 AM
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Is there an advantage doing the HDR tone mapping down to typical projector brightness levels inside the projector vs. inside the player?
If you do it in the projector, you're not dependent on the player to support it. Right now, the Panasonic is the only player that does the HDR->SDR/Rec2020 conversion correctly*. And even with that, it only does it for discs and media files. Streaming apps disable HDR all together if they don't detect HDR support. So while you can get great HDR->SDR2020 results for UHD Blu-ray with an in-player conversion, you're SOL for other HDR sources. If you do it in the projector, you can use any HDR source you want.

*madVR, I'm sure, does a great job as well, but it's more limited than the Panasonic in that it only works with unprotected content, so no UHD Blu-ray (unless you count pirated copies or the few titles that apparently can be ripped now) no streaming services, etc.

The only other "universal" solution (ie works with any HDR source) is the Radiance Pro.

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If not, can an SDR projector with equal maximum light output (and MadVR tone mapping) produce similar results to a projector with native HDR support?
All else equal, sure, it can be as good or possibly better, just go read the Radiance Pro thread.
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post #18219 of 18236 Old Today, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
Is there an advantage doing the HDR tone mapping down to typical projector brightness levels inside the projector vs. inside the player? If not, can an SDR projector with equal maximum light output (and MadVR tone mapping) produce similar results to a projector with native HDR support? I don't remember what bit-depths the older SDR JVC projectors were able to resolve. I know the new upper tier models claim to have full 12-bit paths all the way down to the panel itself. All consumer flat panels I'm aware of seem to be limited to 10-bit.
All else being equal, in theory it shouldn't matter who performs the tone mapping. However, in real life everyone seems to do tone mapping differently. E.g. my Sony 4K TV looks *totally* different if I feed it HDR content untouched vs feeing it HDR content tone mapped via madVR. Obviously the Sony TV uses a completely different compression curve than the one madVR uses (the Sony's result pops a lot more, but also clips to some degree). The same is likely to be true with most other displays, too. There's simply no official standard for how to do tone mapping exactly (although SMPTE makes a suggestion in some of their standards, don't recall the exact standard name/number).

In addition to the tone mapping algorithm itself, the display may also do other things differently in HDR mode, e.g. drive the backlight/lamp much harder in HDR mode, use a cooler color temperature to squeeze more light out of the backlight/lamp etc.

In the end, doing tone mapping in the source device should work just fine, so watching HDR content on SDR displays should generally be no problem at all, if the source device is able to do proper tone mapping. However, since everyone does tone mapping differently, results will vary a lot, depending on who does the tone mapping. And you may also have to manually tweak the display/projector settings (lamp power, color temperature etc) for highest possible lumens output to match what a display/projector looks like which supports native HDR.

Bitdepth doesn't matter too much, IMHO, as long as proper dithering is used. My (older generation) JVC X35 is relatively noisy even with 10bit input, so I think it probably dithers internally and the panel is probably limited to max 8bit, but it's hard to be sure.
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post #18220 of 18236 Old Today, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Bitdepth doesn't matter too much, IMHO, as long as proper dithering is used. My (older generation) JVC X35 is relatively noisy even with 10bit input, so I think it probably dithers internally and the panel is probably limited to max 8bit, but it's hard to be sure.
Isn't there also the issue that PQ curve distributes the limited available bits differently than a typical SDR power gamma curve built into an SDR display? To put it another way, there are fewer available bits to represent shadow detail for example so you may see some banding/posterization even when not displaying content above your SDR displays luminance limits. Did the older RS67 era JVC units also allow custom gamma tables to defeat the default power gamma ones?
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post #18221 of 18236 Old Today, 10:31 AM
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Is 160 nits a value you would recommend as a starting point to use with 1080p non HDR projectors?
I don't know, a lot also depends on how bright your projector is exactly, and whether you have ambient light etc. I'd say just try different values and choose whatever your eyes like best.

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Isn't there also the issue that PQ curve distributes the limited available bits differently than a typical SDR power gamma curve built into an SDR display? To put it another way, there are fewer available bits to represent shadow detail for example so you may see some banding/posterization even when not displaying content above your SDR displays luminance limits. Did the older RS67 era JVC units also allow custom gamma tables to defeat the default power gamma ones?
This is more of an encoding thing. The way madVR's HDR -> SDR conversion works is that the HDR data is first converted to linear light. At this point the data is 32bit+ floating point instead of 10bit integer. Afterwards the pixels are mapped into the gamma curve the display expects, with proper dithering. Really, the dithering takes care of all the problems.

The reason bitdepth (and how much bits are used for shadow detail etc) is so important at encoding time is that lossy encoding doesn't cope with dithering well. So at encoding time it's important to use as many bits as possible and to spend the ideal amount of bits on each grayscale range. But once we reach the lossless playback chain, dithering doesn't get lost, anymore, so at that point even 8bit can be sufficient for HDR, even using the traditional gamma curve. That said, higher bitdepth certainly doesn't harm, it allows for less dithering, which reduces the visible noise floor. Also, I don't know if conventional consumer electronic devices apply dithering at all. So maybe what I'm saying could be limited to HTPCs or maybe also processors like the Lumagen, don't really know for sure.

(P.S: FWIW, I know Dolby Vision requires dithering somewhere in its pipeline. So at least Dolby Vision certified systems must be cable of dithering.)
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He is talking about eshift video noise, but at the same time claiming it wasn't there with clean digital content on the projector, and grainy films brought out the noise? Which is a head scratcher! Its either 100% there or its not, and grainy films are not going to make the mosquito noise (which does exist on an almost microscopic level) worse, in fact I am convinced this person has confused genuine film grain noise and shutter vibration from physical film cameras for noise, and comparing it to a 4k Sony which actively subdues noise.

As for the actual audio buzzing, its unit to unit, my PJ is about 3ft from my head, and I literally cannot hear eshift at all, I only hear the really quiet whirring of the fan, I actually specifically listened for this last night too since the silence in my theatre actually stood out to me at one point, and nope, no eshift buzz noise at all, none. YMMV though it seems based on other accounts.
I'm no expert but the noise that i have seen on movies have all been from these fake 4k movies.. The few movies that had ZERO noise came from movies that where truly 4k.. There should be a class action lawsuit for selling these so called 4k movies.. If you look at the at 2017 list of real 4k movies there is only 12 movies on the list and 2 of them haven't come out yet.. So this year so far we have 10 tittles..

Now that I know whats happening I'm only buying true 4k.. Next on my list is Dunkirk and Interstellar..
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
Isn't there also the issue that PQ curve distributes the limited available bits differently than a typical SDR power gamma curve built into an SDR display? To put it another way, there are fewer available bits to represent shadow detail for example so you may see some banding/posterization even when not displaying content above your SDR displays luminance limits. Did the older RS67 era JVC units also allow custom gamma tables to defeat the default power gamma ones?
Chad B recently calibrated my RS4910 and created custom gamma curves for me with the Arve tool. It works better for HDR versus SDR conversion (using the UB900) for me. I've watched about 7 or 8 titles and they look good this way, but will, of course, depend on the set-up. I'm also having to use high lamp and iris fully opened.

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I'm no expert but the noise that i have seen on movies have all been from these fake 4k movies.. The few movies that had ZERO noise came from movies that where truly 4k.. There should be a class action lawsuit for selling these so called 4k movies.. If you look at the at 2017 list of real 4k movies there is only 12 movies on the list and 2 of them haven't come out yet.. So this year so far we have 10 tittles..

Now that I know whats happening I'm only buying true 4k.. Next on my list is Dunkirk and Interstellar..
This is why I have not personally upgraded to 4K yet. Not enough content that actually looks better than the 1080p BD. It's just a money grab by the studios to make people double dip for the same movies. Yes, I know there are some theoretical advantages in gamut, HDR, and compression on some tittles but the focus of their marketing campaign is '4K' resolution.

In that vain, I guess the 3D fans should also sue for all the fake 3D movies that were released this year. The only movie actually shot with 3D cameras was "Transformers: The Last Knight". I think you can guess how many will be shot in 3D next year... Pretty much explains why most display manufacturers have dropped the format.

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Chad B recently calibrated my RS4910 and created custom gamma curves for me with the Arve tool. It works better for HDR versus SDR conversion (using the UB900) for me. I've watched about 7 or 8 titles and they look good this way, but will, of course, depend on the set-up. I'm also having to use high lamp and iris fully opened.
So you're using an HD Fury Linker to send 4K HDR BT.2020 from your UB900 directly into your RS4910? Are you using e-shift on the RS4910 with the 4K input or are you pre-scaling it on the UB900 or Linker to 1080p? If using 4K, does the e-shift3 really deliver any noticeable additional resolution?
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I'm no expert but the noise that i have seen on movies have all been from these fake 4k movies.. The few movies that had ZERO noise came from movies that where truly 4k.. There should be a class action lawsuit for selling these so called 4k movies.. If you look at the at 2017 list of real 4k movies there is only 12 movies on the list and 2 of them haven't come out yet.. So this year so far we have 10 tittles..

Now that I know whats happening I'm only buying true 4k.. Next on my list is Dunkirk and Interstellar..

it's alarming how few titles are actually 4K DI, just a handful for 2017.

I watched GOTG2 UHD last night, it's only a 2K DI but does benefit from the WCG so I would prefer the UHD vs BD on this title for the WCG alone. it looked flat as a board though compared to the 3D which is a must-see on this title.

Same thing with Spiderman - nice UHD presentation with great color but the 3D was much more fun.

pre-orders in for all the Nolan movies due in December. all his titles are now pushed back to Dec 19th. folks should order now, I bet the first run will sell out quick.
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Is there an advantage doing the HDR tone mapping down to typical projector brightness levels inside the projector vs. inside the player? If not, can an SDR projector with equal maximum light output (and MadVR tone mapping) produce similar results to a projector with native HDR support? I don't remember what bit-depths the older SDR JVC projectors were able to resolve. I know the new upper tier models claim to have full 12-bit paths all the way down to the panel itself. All consumer flat panels I'm aware of seem to be limited to 10-bit.

I suppose you would also need a way to defeat the default SDR gamma curve if doing external tone mapping in order to get similar bit distribution.
Is it just me, or does what you say sound like a technical symphony?
Music to the ears! I would like to have a conversation with you over a beer my friend!
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This is why I have not personally upgraded to 4K yet. Not enough content that actually looks better than the 1080p BD. It's just a money grab by the studios to make people double dip for the same movies. Yes, I know there are some theoretical advantages in gamut, HDR, and compression on some tittles but the focus of their marketing campaign is '4K' resolution.

In that vain, I guess the 3D fans should also sue for all the fake 3D movies that were released this year. The only movie actually shot with 3D cameras was "Transformers: The Last Knight". I think you can guess how many will be shot in 3D next year... Pretty much explains why most display manufacturers have dropped the format.



So you're using an HD Fury Linker to send 4K HDR BT.2020 from your UB900 directly into your RS4910? Are you using e-shift on the RS4910 with the 4K input or are you pre-scaling it on the UB900 or Linker to 1080p? If using 4K, does the e-shift3 really deliver any noticeable additional resolution?
Correct - using the HD Fury Linker to send 4K HDR BT.2020 from UB900 directly into the RS4910.

Chad and I looked 4K scaled down to 1080p (from Linker) vs e-shift on a R.Masciola 4K text pattern - hands down e-shift was sharper. Didn't get a chance to test it from the player scaling it down though...will have to see if that's an option available on the Linker to test.
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it's alarming how few titles are actually 4K DI, just a handful for 2017.

I watched GOTG2 UHD last night, it's only a 2K DI but does benefit from the WCG so I would prefer the UHD vs BD on this title for the WCG alone. it looked flat as a board though compared to the 3D which is a must-see on this title.

Same thing with Spiderman - nice UHD presentation with great color but the 3D was much more fun.

pre-orders in for all the Nolan movies due in December. all his titles are now pushed back to Dec 19th. folks should order now, I bet the first run will sell out quick.
I find no correlation to whether the disc is " real 4K " or " fake 4K and picture quality. Do you really think Crouching Tiger ( real 4k ) looks better than Kingsman ( fake 4k ) ? You're telling me Hacksaw Ridge looks worse than Passengers ? They both look outstanding. And one is real, the other is fake. The " Real or Fake 4K " calls La La Land a demo disc ( it's " fake 4K ), while Ex Machina is not considered a demo disc ( real 4K ). http://realorfake4k.com/my-product_t...d-disc/page/3/

Now go watch some movies.

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it's alarming how few titles are actually 4K DI, just a handful for 2017
I agree entirely. It is like they think that WCG and a bit of HDR on their own are enough..... Maybe they are, perception wise....

So many movies are shot on 4k plus cameras these days you would think it would actually involve fewer steps to master with a 4K DI. Even for 2k content.

Having said that, maybe the difference would actually be so slight they would kill their own fledgling market....

Who knows...
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I agree entirely. It is like they think that WCG and a bit of HDR on their own are enough..... Maybe they are, perception wise....

So many movies are shot on 4k plus cameras these days you would think it would actually involve fewer steps to master with a 4K DI. Even for 2k content.

Having said that, maybe the difference would actually be so slight they would kill their own fledgling market....

Who knows...
It's too difficult to render all the damn CGI in 4K is what I understand. That said, I find a lot of 4K movies to just look cleaner. Ex Machina is true 4K. It doesn't look that much better than the Blu-ray, but there is less video noise. I'll take what I can get for a cleaner picture if nothing else.
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I find no correlation to whether the disc is " real 4K " or " fake 4K and picture quality. Do you really think Crouching Tiger ( real 4k ) looks better than Kingsman ( fake 4k ) ? You're telling me Hacksaw Ridge looks worse than Passengers ? They both look outstanding. And one is real, the other is fake. The " Real or Fake 4K " calls La La Land a demo disc ( it's " fake 4K ), while Ex Machina is not considered a demo disc ( real 4K ). http://realorfake4k.com/my-product_t...d-disc/page/3/

Now go watch some movies.
Great. That is what you think. (And that is fine)
But now, respect what others think and accept other opinions exist and are as valid as yours.

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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
It's too difficult to render all the damn CGI in 4K is what I understand. That said, I find a lot of 4K movies to just look cleaner. Ex Machina is true 4K. It doesn't look that much better than the Blu-ray, but there is less video noise. I'll take what I can get for a cleaner picture if nothing else.
That is because we are firmly in the realm of diminishing returns and exactly why 8K is dead in the water for the seating distances in 99% of homes.
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post #18233 of 18236 Old Today, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
It's too difficult to render all the damn CGI in 4K is what I understand. That said, I find a lot of 4K movies to just look cleaner. Ex Machina is true 4K. It doesn't look that much better than the Blu-ray, but there is less video noise. I'll take what I can get for a cleaner picture if nothing else.
I think the improved encoding on UHD BD with H.265, in my opinion, might be the single biggest improvement over BD. Mind you this increases detail alone. But SO many BDs suffer from compression noise or in some cases have a hard time handling/rendering natural film grain from a 35mm source because of poor encoding --- and it really shows on a large screen where as it's obviously much harder to see on a 55" flat panel unless you sit extremely close. UHD BD just takes this up a full notch.
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post #18234 of 18236 Old Today, 05:55 PM - Thread Starter
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I find no correlation to whether the disc is " real 4K " or " fake 4K and picture quality. Do you really think Crouching Tiger ( real 4k ) looks better than Kingsman ( fake 4k ) ? You're telling me Hacksaw Ridge looks worse than Passengers ? They both look outstanding. And one is real, the other is fake. The " Real or Fake 4K " calls La La Land a demo disc ( it's " fake 4K ), while Ex Machina is not considered a demo disc ( real 4K ). http://realorfake4k.com/my-product_t...d-disc/page/3/

Now go watch some movies.
I don't think that's a fair comparison, Crouching Tiger vs. Kingsman. Kingsman was shot on an ARRI Alexa XT Plus, of course it's going to look razor sharp vs. 35mm film from late 99/early 2000 era. The beauty of the CTHD UHD release is the amazing wide color gamut that smokes the BD version. Also they did a remarkable job keeping key shadow detail in the low and very low APL scenes.

Movies like Sully with 6.5K source/4K VFX/4K DI look amazing and a great effort from the studios.

if the studios are going to kill my favorite 3D BD format at least put some more effort into the final production of these UHD disks.

It was very cool to see Michelle Yeoh cameo in GOTG2. it almost makes me forgive CTHD Sword of Destiny... it could have been such a good sequel

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post #18235 of 18236 Old Today, 06:02 PM
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it's alarming how few titles are actually 4K DI, just a handful for 2017.

I watched GOTG2 UHD last night, it's only a 2K DI but does benefit from the WCG so I would prefer the UHD vs BD on this title for the WCG alone. it looked flat as a board though compared to the 3D which is a must-see on this title.

Same thing with Spiderman - nice UHD presentation with great color but the 3D was much more fun.

pre-orders in for all the Nolan movies due in December. all his titles are now pushed back to Dec 19th. folks should order now, I bet the first run will sell out quick.
Well GOTG2 is a different monster I would think.. They have the biggest budget out there to do things right and I bet rendering the cgi at 8k made a difference on how the film looked... Even thought it looked amazing and I have nothing bad to say about it Lucy looked a bit sharper and I think its because its being put out at 4k.. Guardians was brought down to 2k then upscaled to 4k..

Whatever it is I'm cutting down with the blue rays unless its truly 4k..
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post #18236 of 18236 Old Today, 06:15 PM - Thread Starter
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BladeRunner 2049 is already up for preorder

https://www.amazon.com/Blade-Runner-...dp/B075DQGW92/

great quote from the BD Forum:


Shot at 6K with an Arri Alexa.

Also has a 4K-DI.

Roger Deakins' cinematography.

I won't be surprised one iota if this ends up being the best looking UHD disc once it's released.
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