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post #61 of 92 Old 12-22-2012, 08:17 PM
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Yes, I am afflicted. The fact that I am willing to visit the basements of people I have met on the internet, to demo their projectors, genuinely worries my other half biggrin.gif

Seegs - I hope they fix the issue and it doesn't take too long, at least you have plenty of backups.

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post #62 of 92 Old 12-22-2012, 10:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. Physically everything seems to work fine. The software/processing seems to be way off. Native contrast seems pretty low for a DC4, but I think it has to do with with contrast setting set at default WAY too high and it looks like I don't have enough range to turn it down. It makes things look washed out. Whites also seem to be clipped due to the high default contrast setting. I've seen a couple DC4 machines and the native CR much higher, especially before engaging any iris, whether it be manual or dynamic. I own the Planar PD8150 and thats a DC3 machine with same light path and optics as this and the native CR is much higher. I'm seriously hoping its a software issue and nothing due to the LEDs.

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post #63 of 92 Old 07-14-2014, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I'm just curious to see if anyone else on here is as crazy as me as far as purchases go? I have gone through a total of 15 projectors in as little as 14 months. The unfortunate thing about anything visual is that you need to actually see it to really get an understanding of what the product is all about. I have to say that projectors are one of the hardest consumer product to track down to actually audition. That is the main reasoning of why I've gone through so many. I figured the best and easiest way to get access to all these fine projectors was to buy them and then, subsequently, sell them if I didn't like them or had seen better.

Here's what I've gone through; in chronological order: (Updated 7/11/14)


1.) Panasonic PT-AE900U - 720p 3LCD
2.) Sanyo PLV-1080HD - 1080p 3LCD
3.) Epson Home Cinema 6500UB - 1080p 3 LCD
4.) JVC DLA RS10 - 1080p LCOS
5.) JVC DLA-RS20 - 1080p LCOS
6.) Planar PD8150 - 1080p .95" DC3 DLP
7.) Sim2 Domino D80 - 1080p .95" DC3 DLP
8.) Optoma HD20 - 1080p DC2 .65" DLP
9.) Epson 8100 - 1080p 3LCD
10.) Mitsubishi HC7800D - 1080p .65" DC3 3D DLP
11.) Infocus IN81 - 1080p .95" DC2 DLP
12.) InFocus IN82 - 1080p .95" DC3 DLP
13.) InFocus IN83 - 1080p .95" DC4 DLP
14.) JVC DLA-X3 - 1080p 3D LCOS
15.) BenQ W5000 - 1080p .95" DC2 DLP
16.) Marantz VP-11S1 - 1080p .95" DC3 DLP
17.) NuVision ProVu P2 - 1080p .95" DC4 LED DLP
18.) Marantz VP-15S1 - 1080p .95" DC3 DLP
19.) Vivitek H5085 - 1080p .65" DC3 DLP
20.) Samsung SP-A800B - 1080p .95" DC2 DLP
21.) Vivitek H9080FD - 1080p .95" DC4 LED DLP
22.) Runco LS-1 - 1080p .95" DC2 DLP
23.) JVC DLA-X30 - 1080p 3D LCOS
24.) Mitsubishi HC5 - 1080p 3D LCOS
25.) Optoma HD25 - 1080p .65" DC3 3D DLP
26.) BenQ W20000 - 1080p .95" DC3 DLP
27.) JVC DLA-X55R - 1080p 3D E-Shift v.2 LCOS
28.) Optoma HD131Xe - 1080p .65" DC3 3D DLP
29.) Knoll Systems HDP460 - 1080p .95" DC4 DLP
30.) JVC DLA-X90 - 1080p 3D E-Shift v1 LCOS
31.) Runco RS-900 - 1080p .95" DC2? DLP
32.) Sony VPL-VW90ES - 1080p 3D LCOS
33.) Runco RS-1100 Ultra - 1080p .95" DC3 DLP
34.) Mitsubishi HC7900DW - 1080p 3D .65" DC3 DLP
35.) Sharp XV-Z30000 - 1080p 3D .65" DLP
36.) Runco Q750i - 1080p LED .95" DC4 DLP
37.) JVC DLA-X500 - 1080p 3D E-Shift v.3 LCOS
38.) Runco LS-100D - 1080p LED .95" DC4 DLP
39.) Runco LS-10i - 1080p 3 Chip .65" "DC4" DLP

Other odds and ends:

Anamorphic Lenses:
ISCO IIIL with Motorized Sled
Panamorph UH480 with Motorized Sled
Schneider Optics Cine-Digitar (basically a smaller version of the optics in the ISCO IIIL)

3D Glasses:

X-Pand 103 - IR
MonsterVision Max - RF(Bit-Couldron BC5000 system)
EStar ESG6100 3D - RF
Stock IR JVC Glasses and Emitter - IR
Stock Mitsubishi HC7800D Glasses & Emitter - IR
Stock Sharp XV-Z30000 AN3DG20B Glasses and Emitter - IR

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Each new purchase was to either upgrade or because I could get a good deal and see it for myself. Everything after the Planar has been been for the latter reason. I have yet to see a better well balanced projector that does everything just about perfectly. I just received the Marantz this evening. It is far dimmer than any other projector I've previously owned. I just purchased a Da-Lite Model B High Contrast High Power 2.4 gain screen for it so I can get the most use from it.

I guess I'm pretty anxious to try new things out and unfortunately this has fueled my madness.


Out of all these projectors which one do you like the most and for what reasons, especially blacks?
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post #64 of 92 Old 07-14-2014, 10:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, you've narrowed it down when you want to know which one I like for blacks. The X500 has by far the best black level performance and low APL (average picture level) performance out of all the projectors I've owned so far. For DLP, the Planar PD8150 has been the best in regards to black level and low APL scene performance. The Sharp XV-Z20000 has the best black level performance I've ever seen from a DLP projector, but because it uses an adjustable static iris you're forced to use a very small screen to be able to get a decently bright image for high APL level scenes otherwise the image looks far too dim. A nice compromise would be a Da-Lite High Power screen with the Sharp, but then again, you're still stuck to smaller screen sizes maybe around 100" diagonal.

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post #65 of 92 Old 07-15-2014, 06:10 AM
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I remember comparing the same Blu-Ray movies on both the original giant Panasonic 103" plasma and the Sharp Z20000 projector, and I was surprised to find the Sharp projector had both deeper black levels and a sharper image. It was encountering the amazing image put out by the Sharp that really got me thinking seriously of the move to projectors.
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post #66 of 92 Old 07-15-2014, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
I remember comparing the same Blu-Ray movies on both the original giant Panasonic 103" plasma and the Sharp Z20000 projector, and I was surprised to find the Sharp projector had both deeper black levels and a sharper image. It was encountering the amazing image put out by the Sharp that really got me thinking seriously of the move to projectors.
Interesting. A free electric screen is what got me thinking about projectors. I sort of fell a$$ backwards into home theater. I like to point out that the free electric screen has cost me $ 50,000.00 by now. Or more....
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post #67 of 92 Old 07-20-2014, 10:50 AM
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Expanding on the premise of the original post, for sure the internet is an amazing force for boosting sales of everything.

Rabid enthusiasts of whatever stripe congregate in their respective fora, further inciting each others' passions and pushing the bleeding edge ever further; not so many years ago a single long-throw 15" driver was considered the top of the food chain, now there's no limit, with multiple 18"-ers not even raising eyebrows.
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post #68 of 92 Old 11-26-2014, 02:56 PM
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you all suck

my a__
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post #69 of 92 Old 11-27-2014, 08:33 AM
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I've owned a lot of projectors -- both CRT and digital. So far I've been able tho avoid spending the big bucks on new projectors. The G90 I owned I bought used for a fraction of what it cost new where I live ($60,000 plus another $9,000 in tax). I've also spent over $10,000 on a digital projector. I presently own 8 projectors and when it comes to value my $799 Mits HC7900 wins big time. I watch pretty much everything in 3D using a Teranex 3D processor, or the exceptionally functional built-in 3D converter so black levels are respectable with glasses on -- I have three HP 2.8 gain screens.

I've learned a few lessons -- the big one is that unless you're going to keep a projector for a very long time do not spend over $10,000 and better yet, don't spend over $5,000 on a projector. I'm an equipment junkie so I know I'm going to buy something new on a regular basis -- I just have to make sure I don't do something stupid like spending a ton of money on new acquisitions. Maybe I should just buy Seegs's cast aways.

Perhaps we should set up a trading/lending/swapping service and send each other our projectors so we can get to see what certain projectors look like for a week or so without having to actually buy them -- paying for shipping costs is a lot cheaper than buying something new and then watching it depreciate at the speed of light.
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post #70 of 92 Old Today, 09:57 AM
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Seegs, have you ranked your favorites overall recently, not just the category of displaying blacks? thanks!
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post #71 of 92 Old Today, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Expanding on the premise of the original post, for sure the internet is an amazing force for boosting sales of everything.

Rabid enthusiasts of whatever stripe congregate in their respective fora, further inciting each others' passions and pushing the bleeding edge ever further; not so many years ago a single long-throw 15" driver was considered the top of the food chain, now there's no limit, with multiple 18"-ers not even raising eyebrows.
You don't even want to know how much fine collectable wine I've bought once I figured out everything is available online.

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post #72 of 92 Old Today, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drbru001 View Post
Seegs, have you ranked your favorites overall recently, not just the category of displaying blacks? thanks!
I don't think I've compiled a list so far, but I can confidently tell you that some of my favorite projectors on that list are ones that don't have the best black levels by any stretch of the imagination. Let me know what you're looking for in an image, that is, what's important for you to have in an image and maybe I can make a suggestion. What size screen are you going to be using and what are your room conditions like? Do you have complete light control? Do you have white walls or other reflective surfaces? Or is your room treated for reflections?

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post #73 of 92 Old Today, 11:39 AM
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Thanks so much for replying and volunteering to help. Im trying to get the sharpest, brightest image with best clarity along with the best blacks... who isnt...lol I dont know how to prioritize my choice other than to say deep, robust colors with sharp images are the most sought after qualities.

1. budget is up to 20k with anamorphic lens
2. used in a dedicated, light controlled, professionally designed home theater room
3. 20ft throw as designer wont let me hang it off the ceiling in the middle of the room for a shorter throw
4. watching DirecTV, sports and blue ray movies.
5. purchasing in the next 3-5 mos so Im not sure 4k is necessary, 1080 is fine unless the new Epson laser or something coming out makes a big difference in this price range
6. screen size is going to be 130-140 inches

people have suggested some of the M-series from DPI but those projectors may be pushing my budget. THanks again Seegs!
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post #74 of 92 Old Today, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
... I can confidently tell you that some of my favorite projectors on that list are ones that don't have the best black levels by any stretch of the imagination. ...
This statement is refreshing, really. I have seen so many "experts" implying that On/Off CR is the holly grail for video fidelity.
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post #75 of 92 Old Today, 11:54 AM
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This statement is refreshing, really. I have seen so many "experts" implying that On/Off CR is the holly grail for video fidelity.

I agree. Good black levels are important, but so much depends on your screen size, room conditions etc. And what you watch .

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post #76 of 92 Old Today, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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This statement is refreshing, really. I have seen so many "experts" implying that On/Off CR is the holly grail for video fidelity.
Contrast is definitely one of the most important aspects of the image for sure, but if you're able to get contrast up to a certain level other things start to become more important. For DLP projectors, as long as you start off with decent native contrast and add in a smart dynamic contrast implementation there's no reason you can't get subjectively "good" contrast performance and reap the other benefits DLP normally brings such as extreme sharpness, high ANSI contrast, excellent motion resolution, excellent 3D performance, excellent color and white field uniformity, and a sense of "naturalness" that seems hard to get with LCD variant projectors. With that said, there's really only a handful of DLP projector that offer such qualities. I'd say the Runco LS series of projectors have these traits, the current (and a couple of units from the past) Sim2 Lumis series of projectors have this. Sim2's Nero 3D-2 should have it too (though I've never personally seen it), and a few Digital Projection units like have this trait too.

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post #77 of 92 Old Today, 12:10 PM
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Thanks so much for replying and volunteering to help. Im trying to get the sharpest, brightest image with best clarity along with the best blacks... who isnt...lol I dont know how to prioritize my choice other than to say deep, robust colors with sharp images are the most sought after qualities.

1. budget is up to 20k with anamorphic lens
2. used in a dedicated, light controlled, professionally designed home theater room
3. 20ft throw as designer wont let me hang it off the ceiling in the middle of the room for a shorter throw
4. watching DirecTV, sports and blue ray movies.
5. purchasing in the next 3-5 mos so Im not sure 4k is necessary, 1080 is fine unless the new Epson laser or something coming out makes a big difference in this price range
6. screen size is going to be 130-140 inches

people have suggested some of the M-series from DPI but those projectors may be pushing my budget. THanks again Seegs!

just to speed things up your screen dimension, is it width or diagonal and what is the screen aspect ratio?

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post #78 of 92 Old Today, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drbru001 View Post
Thanks so much for replying and volunteering to help. Im trying to get the sharpest, brightest image with best clarity along with the best blacks... who isnt...lol I dont know how to prioritize my choice other than to say deep, robust colors with sharp images are the most sought after qualities.

1. budget is up to 20k with anamorphic lens
2. used in a dedicated, light controlled, professionally designed home theater room
3. 20ft throw as designer wont let me hang it off the ceiling in the middle of the room for a shorter throw
4. watching DirecTV, sports and blue ray movies.
5. purchasing in the next 3-5 mos so Im not sure 4k is necessary, 1080 is fine unless the new Epson laser or something coming out makes a big difference in this price range
6. screen size is going to be 130-140 inches

people have suggested some of the M-series from DPI but those projectors may be pushing my budget. THanks again Seegs!

I would pass on the M-Series from DPI. I say this because all of the projectors in the M-Series use the same light engine, processing and optics as the (now very old) Planar PD8150 but lack a dynamic iris. This light engine is OEM'ed from Delta and many companies are still using this light engine just wrapped in a custom designed outer chassis. The lack of a dynamic iris seriously hinders contrast performance in a market place that currently is well beyond the ~3000:1 native contrast these M-Series projectors currently offer. If you go with a DLP projector, to be even remotely competitive with contrast to the current 2015 offerings, you need some sort of dynamic contrast modulation. Within your budget I'd take a look at the Runco LS-5 (same Delta light engine, processing and optics as the M-Series) which adds that important dynamic iris. This projector tops out at around 850 lumens which is just about the limit for your screen size. Alternatively, you could look into the Sim2 Nero 3D-2. It should be a little brighter and offer even higher contrast than the Runco, though I don't know if it's street price is within your budget. Runco offers the LS-12D which is a 3-chip DLP which I believe has an MSRP of $19,999 so it's street price should be within your budget even if you add in an anamorphic lens. This will offer higher lens quality, quite a bit more light output, an excellent dynamic iris, and support for 3D over the LS-5. Other than that, there really isn't anything "DLP" that I'd recommend within your budget worth considering that can light up your screen size.

Alternatively there are a couple other projectors that are non-DLP that offer excellent image quality (and high sharpness) that you could consider. The Sony VPL-VW600ES is a great performer and in your price range. This offers excellent light output, a decent dynamic iris, great lens quality, true 4K support, and 3D support too. The JVC DLA-X700 would also be an excellent choice and will offer the absolute best contrast performance out there. It's lens is top notch and will also offer an extremely sharp image.


I know, that's a lot of recommendations. From what I've personally seen if I were choosing between these options I'd narrow it down to the Runco LS-12D, JVC DLA-X700, or the Sony VPL-VW600ES. I think currently these three projectors offer the pinnacle of performance for projectors with an MSRP of less than $20000. Each has some pro's and cons and ultimately I can't make the decision for you. Just know that each has stunning PQ and all three would be excellent in a dedicated home theater space.

As a side note, JVC does offer an X900 which is the same as the X700 just with handpicked parts. I personally don't think it's worth the extra money for the X900.

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Last edited by Seegs108; Today at 12:27 PM.
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post #79 of 92 Old Today, 12:26 PM
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Thanks for the recs Seegs. I was told to stay away from the Runco's by 2 people in the industry. They think that Runco is going out of business? Mark, the 130 is a diagonal dimension. Thanks for stepping up and helping too! Mark, do you have any other suggestions or are you on board with Seegs?
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post #80 of 92 Old Today, 12:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Runco is owned by Planar and I doubt Planar is going out of business. Even if they decide to shut down Runco, they'd have to honor warranties. So, if you bought a Runco you'd still be covered. With that said, I still believe that the Runco models I've mentioned will offer better performance over the DP models in the M-Series. Contrast performance is lacking with those models. If contrast is something you're interested in I'd avoid the M-Series.

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post #81 of 92 Old Today, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drbru001 View Post
Thanks so much for replying and volunteering to help. Im trying to get the sharpest, brightest image with best clarity along with the best blacks... who isnt...lol I dont know how to prioritize my choice other than to say deep, robust colors with sharp images are the most sought after qualities.

1. budget is up to 20k with anamorphic lens
2. used in a dedicated, light controlled, professionally designed home theater room
3. 20ft throw as designer wont let me hang it off the ceiling in the middle of the room for a shorter throw
4. watching DirecTV, sports and blue ray movies.
5. purchasing in the next 3-5 mos so Im not sure 4k is necessary, 1080 is fine unless the new Epson laser or something coming out makes a big difference in this price range
6. screen size is going to be 130-140 inches

people have suggested some of the M-series from DPI but those projectors may be pushing my budget. THanks again Seegs!
AT screen or solid screen? What aspect ratio?

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AT screen and aspect ratio is "supposed to be" 2:35 but I have yet to make up my mind about that as screen size. The 2nd row of seats ability to view the entire screen is yet to be determined which is one of the factors in determining the aspect ratio Mike.

I hear ya on the Runco Seegs. again thanks so much! I just read some of the thread on the new epson laser... curious to see how that works out. I would love to save the money if the image came anywhere close.
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post #83 of 92 Old Today, 12:57 PM - Thread Starter
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AT screen and aspect ratio is "supposed to be" 2:35 but I have yet to make up my mind about that as screen size. The 2nd row of seats ability to view the entire screen is yet to be determined which is one of the factors in determining the aspect ratio Mike.

I hear ya on the Runco Seegs. again thanks so much! I just read some of the thread on the new epson laser... curious to see how that works out. I would love to save the money if the image came anywhere close.
Don't get sucked into the hype of that Epson projector. The X700 from JVC will offer better overall PQ for less money. The JVC is on par in every PQ aspect with the Epson, but the JVC pulls ahead (by quite a decent amount too) with contrast performance. You do get about 100 more lumens with the Epson but at your screen size this won't make a large difference. Both units will be able to handle a screen this size easily.

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post #84 of 92 Old Today, 01:18 PM
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yeah yeah yeah.... dont believe the hype. I know. I can dream though. A projector with an excellent image that is affordable and that requires no lamp change and no subsequent and mulitple calibrations... oh the joy! perhaps I should get my head out of fantasyland with the unicorns.
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Why isn't the Epson a consideration? it sounds like TV and Sports were the first 2 items listed so it may get a lot of use. the 9600 could be a reasonable price point for this setup.
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Because I don't think it's value is there. Considering the 9600e will be less bright and offer less contrast for the same amount as the X700 why consider it?

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yeah yeah yeah.... dont believe the hype. I know. I can dream though. A projector with an excellent image that is affordable and that requires no lamp change and no subsequent and mulitple calibrations... oh the joy! perhaps I should get my head out of fantasyland with the unicorns.
I've said many times that the laser itself if definitely interesting and will be great for future projectors to come, but the rest of the projector offers almost the exact same 2D picture quality (with less contrast) that the current JVC offerings do. Lens quality, feature set, ANSI contrast, lumen output (about 50-100 lumens less bright on the JVC), subjective motion, and quietness are all basically equal between the two units. If you're okay with paying $2000-$4000 extra simply for the laser light source you should definitely look into the Epson.

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The X700 contrast advantage comes in when manually clamped down which isn't likely on this sized screen. I've had the 500/700 in an A/B stack. wide open, good luck figuring out which projector is which.

we need to know more about the use case. if he is planning on watching a lot of TV and Sports, the 9600 should still be a consideration at 6K street price. Near JVC contrast which we've heard from a number of trusted resources who have seen it first hand + the promise of the laser longevity is still worth looking at.
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The X700 contrast advantage comes in when manually clamped down which isn't likely on this sized screen. I've had the 500/700 in an A/B stack. wide open, good luck figuring out which projector is which.

we need to know more about the use case. if he is planning on watching a lot of TV and Sports, the 9600 should still be a consideration at 6K street price. Near JVC contrast which we've heard from a number of trusted resources who have seen it first hand + the promise of the laser longevity is still worth looking at.
I was talking about the contrast differences between the X700 and 9600e. The 9600e uses lower output blue lasers so lumens should be lower than the LS10000. The LS10000 measured in at around 16000:1 by a couple reviews which is half of the X700 at 31000:1 (iris wide open for both). I'm assuming the 9600e has similar contrast. You make a valid point about hours used on the projector and this may come in handy. I just think from a PQ standpoint the JVCs are better overall for 2D. Kris would have switched over in an instant if he thought the LS10000 offered a better 2D image over his current X700. From what I've personally asked Ekki from cine4home he said most image characteristics were, for lack of a better word, identical minus contrast performance. The main differences come in from each projectors' smart sharpening tools and can give one or the other a visual difference of sharpness between the two. Projector Central's X500 vs LS10000 made a similar statement.

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How about a radical (and maybe unpopular suggestion)...

Why not go with a "cheap" projector, plus a good lens and just enjoy it and hang out for a year or two, then you can devote the bulk of your budget to a DCI P3 capable "4K" projector?

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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