Sony LCOS panel degradation? 5 yrs, constant use - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 107 Old 11-03-2012, 02:49 PM
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Lone cloud - serious question, what are you looking for in public forum?

Admittance by Sony they hid something?

Trying to gather objective data of average failure hours for Sony PJs with your generation of technology?

Trying to accuse engineers of bad design practice?

Trying to hold AVS sales people somewhat responsible because at point of sale time in your viewpoint they should disclose how long a product will last?
(Just like we get for cars, appliances, lawn tractors, sewing machines, etc)

Rant to let off steam?

R&D activity does not design for failure, we design and test based on QCT, quality cost and timing targets to meet market expectations.


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post #92 of 107 Old 11-03-2012, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Lone Cloud View Post

Thank you for your reassurance. Hopefully it is based on more than gut instinct or polyanna notions of corporate goodness.
"Planned obsolescence" has been a principle of product engineering/manufacturing, in wide, although not universal use, for at least half a century.
Thank you for your absolute statement "Failure is NEVER designed in". I nominate you for the person on this site with the rosiest of rose colored glasses.

Whether or not planned obsolescence exists, I do not know; however, if Sony designs their projectors to fail at 20,000+ hrs, they missed the mark by a large margin. It would likely take the average user 20 years or more to put that many hours on a projector, and by then they would have long since replaced it.

Projector's can be a big investment, and it truly sucks that yours has failed, but you have to know that you put an extraordinarily high number of hours on it, in a relatively short amount of time.
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post #93 of 107 Old 11-03-2012, 08:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Lone cloud - serious question, what are you looking for in public forum?
Admittance by Sony they hid something?
Trying to gather objective data of average failure hours for Sony PJs with your generation of technology?
Trying to accuse engineers of bad design practice?
Trying to hold AVS sales people somewhat responsible because at point of sale time in your viewpoint they should disclose how long a product will last?
(Just like we get for cars, appliances, lawn tractors, sewing machines, etc)
Rant to let off steam?
R&D activity does not design for failure, we design and test based on QCT, quality cost and timing targets to meet market expectations.
Sent from my 32GB iPhone4 using Tapatalk

So many people have to find a hidden agenda. How about everything I stated is what I meant. The argument forwarded by the Sony apologists is that 'you should have known that kind of use was too much'. I find this argument seriously lacking - it's as if we are required to be psychic about engineering parameters and chemistry.

By contrast, I see in electronics stores, and for YEARS now, statements of expected life of plasma and lcd televisions. It is a measure important to consumers. The idea that corporate giant Sony didn't know exactly the average lifespan of this component is a ludicrous idea. They know it and they deliberately chose not to disclose it. And with Sony refusing to provide repair or warranty support to replace the panels, in my view that proves it - Sony is pursuing a corporate strategy based upon planning failure in

AVS? They didn't do any testing or design of these components. I have no information that they have knowledge that goes that deep. Their role is innocent insofar as I can tell. The only entity that possesses the relevant information is Sony.


I have had failure in virtually every Sony product I have ever owned. I have not had similar experiences with most of my other electronics.

It;s a home electronics forum. I have no agenda other than informing other members and learning from them. I am not suing over this. I am merely presenting the best argument in favor of avoiding Sony. In this, I am completely correct and justified.
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post #94 of 107 Old 11-04-2012, 12:52 AM
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Lone cloud, before we go much further down this road let me share you my story:
I bought 2+ acres property 1999, designed/planned our home in 2000, and was interested in a "green" water system for delivering whole home water, moving away from salt water systems.
(I'm on septic/well water)

I did lots of research, staying away from magnets/etc on pipes, found EcoSmarte, did research on them, contacted (3) customers, etc.
Bought their set-up $4.5k vs $1.5k for traditional salt based system

I was initially satisfied, then issues appeared, with me eventually giving up 5 years later, calling the $4.5k a loss, and went to a salt based system.
I captured details in this blog, I wanted to document it....at the time I was an active member of S&V forum before active @ AVS, plus they had a "just chat" section which AVS avoids, wanting to stay away from politics/etc.
http://forums.soundandvisionmag.com/showthread.php?315777-Issues-amp-Problems-with-EcoSmarte-POE-whole-home-system

My point is have you contacted Sony directly on your issues, documented all those conversations, followed up, etc?
Have they offered you any recourse to satisfy you?

I strongly suggest you do so.
email, formal snail mail letter, etc.

AVS is a fact based forum; "S" stands for science, gather data, understand it, discuss it.
There are lots of other "home electronics forum" out there - I won't name them we know who they are.
AVS, IMO, is held to the highest standard for accuracy and objectiveness.
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post #95 of 107 Old 11-04-2012, 05:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lone Cloud View Post

So many people have to find a hidden agenda. How about everything I stated is what I meant. The argument forwarded by the Sony apologists is that 'you should have known that kind of use was too much'. I find this argument seriously lacking - it's as if we are required to be psychic about engineering parameters and chemistry.
By contrast, I see in electronics stores, and for YEARS now, statements of expected life of plasma and lcd televisions. It is a measure important to consumers. The idea that corporate giant Sony didn't know exactly the average lifespan of this component is a ludicrous idea. They know it and they deliberately chose not to disclose it. And with Sony refusing to provide repair or warranty support to replace the panels, in my view that proves it - Sony is pursuing a corporate strategy based upon planning failure in
AVS? They didn't do any testing or design of these components. I have no information that they have knowledge that goes that deep. Their role is innocent insofar as I can tell. The only entity that possesses the relevant information is Sony.
I have had failure in virtually every Sony product I have ever owned. I have not had similar experiences with most of my other electronics.
It;s a home electronics forum. I have no agenda other than informing other members and learning from them. I am not suing over this. I am merely presenting the best argument in favor of avoiding Sony. In this, I am completely correct and justified.

Keep in mind, those numbers are an average. That still does not mean that you will get that many hours or years out of a product. I think a lot of the problem here is the difference between how you see this and how many of us see this. You hold up your projector as being unreliable because it failed after five years of use with 20,000 plus hours on it. The thing, is, I think most on here would consider a projector that is capable of 20,000 plus hours as highly reliable. That is why I urged you to start a poll, so that you could see if your expectations were reasonable or not compared to what other projector owners thought.

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post #96 of 107 Old 11-04-2012, 05:28 AM
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So Lone Cloud.....if 20,000 hours isn't enough what is?
100,000?
1,000,000?
Forever?

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post #97 of 107 Old 11-04-2012, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lone Cloud View Post

So many people have to find a hidden agenda. How about everything I stated is what I meant. The argument forwarded by the Sony apologists is that 'you should have known that kind of use was too much'. I find this argument seriously lacking - it's as if we are required to be psychic about engineering parameters and chemistry.
By contrast, I see in electronics stores, and for YEARS now, statements of expected life of plasma and lcd televisions. It is a measure important to consumers. The idea that corporate giant Sony didn't know exactly the average lifespan of this component is a ludicrous idea. They know it and they deliberately chose not to disclose it. And with Sony refusing to provide repair or warranty support to replace the panels, in my view that proves it - Sony is pursuing a corporate strategy based upon planning failure in
AVS? They didn't do any testing or design of these components. I have no information that they have knowledge that goes that deep. Their role is innocent insofar as I can tell. The only entity that possesses the relevant information is Sony.
I have had failure in virtually every Sony product I have ever owned. I have not had similar experiences with most of my other electronics.
It;s a home electronics forum. I have no agenda other than informing other members and learning from them. I am not suing over this. I am merely presenting the best argument in favor of avoiding Sony. In this, I am completely correct and justified.

Lots of times people think they are completely correct and justified. Others would disagree.

For whatever ever as you state you are presenting arguments to others to "avoid" Sony. In your eyes you have a crusade either as a saint to protect others against their ill advised decision to buy a Sony or as punishment to Sony for commiting what you thing was a wrong, nondisclosure of something or deliberately designing in failure.

You basically have the right to use a public forum to conduct your crusade as long as its kept within the limits of good taste.

I would ask you though are you now currently attacking a windmill. Are you accomplishing anything. Most think what you want is unrealistic and you are probably not convincing anyone to avoid Sony though I am getting emails asking what I know about Sony panel life. I keep saying, I would expect failure and degradation to occur with a reasonable amount of use and over time. Maybe it won't. I dunno. But I would buy a five year extended warranty and carefully observe if panel degradation occurs. If it doesn't occur, great. But in this sport I always prepare for and expect the worse. Then I am never dissapointed. If bad happens, I knew it was going to. If it doesn't, I am one lucky suffering bastard and usually that what it turns out to be. I am a lucky suffering bastard.

The real interesting thing about Sony is whether it will survive over the next say 5 years. The trade press is reporting three Japanese giants are in serious trouble. Sharp, Panasonic, and Sony. Sharp is itself questioning whether it can survive. My bet is that it won't, Panaonic won't, but Sony will. Its loses were the smallest and it has the best arsenal of technology to bring to market. It does need capital. It also has its Hollywood but that's almost like a separate company and Sony has not been able to integrate the two.

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post #98 of 107 Old 11-04-2012, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Lots of times people think they are completely correct and justified. Others would disagree.
For whatever ever as you state you are presenting arguments to others to "avoid" Sony. In your eyes you have a crusade either as a saint to protect others against their ill advised decision to buy a Sony or as punishment to Sony for commiting what you thing was a wrong, nondisclosure of something or deliberately designing in failure.
You basically have the right to use a public forum to conduct your crusade as long as its kept within the limits of good taste.
I would ask you though are you now currently attacking a windmill. Are you accomplishing anything. Most think what you want is unrealistic and you are probably not convincing anyone to avoid Sony though I am getting emails asking what I know about Sony panel life. I keep saying, I would expect failure and degradation to occur with a reasonable amount of use and over time. Maybe it won't. I dunno. But I would buy a five year extended warranty and carefully observe if panel degradation occurs. If it doesn't occur, great. But in this sport I always prepare for and expect the worse. Then I am never dissapointed. If bad happens, I knew it was going to. If it doesn't, I am one lucky suffering bastard and usually that what it turns out to be. I am a lucky suffering bastard.
The real interesting thing about Sony is whether it will survive over the next say 5 years. The trade press is reporting three Japene giants in serious trouble. Sharp, Panasonic, and Sony. Sharp is itself questioning whether it can survive. My bet is that it won't, Panaonic won't, but Sony will. Its loses were the smallest and it has the best arsenal of technology to bring to market. It does need capital. It also has its Hollywood but that's almost like a separate company and Sony has not been able to integrate the two. .

Basically, you use your post to attack personally. This is unfortunate.

Not one of the Sony apologists, including you, have asked or answered the simple questions - Considering that informing the consumer of the average number of hours would cost a tiny amount of money, why did Sony choose not to do it? Why is there no similar report from JVC on their panels? Why does Sony not support panel replacement in its extensive repair network?

You want to avoid the example set by other electronics manufacturers, as if projector technology isn't to be measured the same way, Why is that? I leave that to you to answer.

I am right about this. No amount of "saints and windmills" language on your part will change that.

I am doing what other members have done since I've been a member here; I've been asking questions, relating my experiences, and trying to draw the correct conclusion from all of that.

I also like to think I will concede error when someone makes a good case for that. I am not, however mistaken on this.
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post #99 of 107 Old 11-04-2012, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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So Lone Cloud.....if 20,000 hours isn't enough what is?
100,000?
1,000,000?
Forever?

I would be satisfied, not by some arbitrary number, but by being able to factor in the actual number at purchase.

Sony knew. They chose not to say. They prevented me from measuring the money I spent against the performance I could expect.

I now have expensive electronics I cannot fix and cannot sell in good faith. I am in that situation because of a corporate decision.

It isn't about a speculative number plucked out of space. It's about the actual number and how it came to be that number. It's about why the sole owner of that number decided not to disclose it.
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post #100 of 107 Old 11-04-2012, 09:33 AM
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I should keep my mouth shut but I don't read anything Mark wrote as a personal attack.
But I do think you are wrong. If you're concerned about product lifetime and didn't see it specified why would you not ask about it?
I don't see product lifetime statements on most everything I buy (vehicles, electronics, cameras, etc) but neither do I think they'll last forever. YMMV but you seem to be saying you're right any anyone and everyone who disagrees is wrong ("I also like to think I will concede error when someone makes a good case for that. I am not, however mistaken on this") I guess at this point there is no reason for anymore discussion.

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post #101 of 107 Old 11-04-2012, 09:39 AM
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No. Its not a personnal attack. Not at all. You have every right to do as you please. I happen to disagree with your opinion here and I think not many agree with you but that doesn't make you wrong. You may in fact be right. and even if you are not it makes no difference. I am not apologizing for Sony. We differ and that is something that is great abouit our Country and this forum, we can differ. I think your expectations were not realistic or even reasonable. Sort of like what is the reasonable standard of care, less would be negligence. What is reasonable to expect for the product. You set what you think and then want to warn others off because the product didn't measure up to your expectations and your belief as to what the company knew etc etc. You are fully entitled tp believe what you want. I am not attacking you. I just don't agree with you nor do I think many others do. If you are pissed about something that was unrealistic and not something that I feel is a real problem, then to me your attack is on a windmill. To you its real. To me its specious and a windmill. Its what you believe and nothing anybody can see will convince you you are wrong. You stated you are right and nothing we can say will change your opinion. Sorry. My bad. You are right and I will not question it further.

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post #102 of 107 Old 11-04-2012, 09:55 AM
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I am trying to predict the football games this afternoon. They will keep me away from this thread for quite a while. Perhaps its just best to let this thread die out. No one is going to change his or her mind about this and someone stumbling accross this thread can read the various posts and reach their own conclusions. Lonecloud please remember we are all friends here but we will disagree in an extreme polar manner on occasion. Some of my best friends belong to another party. But we still are friends and as always I will read your posts on other subjects than the present subject.and try to respond helpfully if I can.

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post #103 of 107 Old 11-04-2012, 09:56 AM
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i'm not interested in this argument, but I have to say I'm floored that this projector lasted this long with this much use. Commercial projectors designed for this kind of run time are significantly more expensive than that Sony was new.

I don't think a DLP color wheel would have lasted that long in a consumer projector, it's actually quite impressive that it still works to a degree.
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post #104 of 107 Old 11-04-2012, 11:13 AM
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My last 5 projectors have been JVC, but after hearing that this Sony lasted 20000+ hours, I might reconsider going with a Sony. In the projector world, that's pretty freakin impressive.

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post #105 of 107 Old 11-04-2012, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

The real interesting thing about Sony is whether it will survive over the next say 5 years. The trade press is reporting three Japene giants in serious trouble. Sharp, Panasonic, and Sony. Sharp is itself questioning whether it can survive. My bet is that it won't, Panaonic won't, but Sony will. Its loses were the smallest and it has the best arsenal of technology to bring to market. It does need capital. It also has its Hollywood but that's almost like a separate company and Sony has not been able to integrate the two. .

I, for one, actually appreciate what Sony is doing as a company in many sectors. They appear to care about *quality*:
  1. Pushing for Blu-Ray, which is worlds above streaming in terms of quality, as of now.
  2. Pushing for 4K: again, a step up in quality from 1080p, not to mention streaming video
  3. Sony makes the best camera sensors in the world. Period.
  4. The RX100 is a feat of engineering; no wonder it was named one of the best inventions of 2012 by Time Magazine
  5. The Sony RX1 is the first mirrorless full-frame camera. Where's Canon & Nikon in that fight??
  6. Sony came out with the projection screen that selectively reflects only certain R, G, B primaries coming from the projector, thereby rejecting ambient light. Not sure where this tech went (can't find much on it anymore), but it's great that they try innovative stuff.

Of course, like any company, they will make decisions & take actions that you may disagree with & that actually may just be regrettable. I think the OP would be getting more sympathy if his/her expectations were more in line with what most other people find 'reasonable'. It'd take me 10 years to pu 20k hours on a projector, and I would've replaced the projector by then anyway due to desire for new technology. My parents' old Sony rear projection TV lasted some 10 years before finally dimming/experiencing some burn-in. So in my limited experience, Sony's done well.

As someone posted above, QC testing & longevity testing are themselves subject to monetary constraints; it's not like *all* optical blocks failed. Perhaps there was a QC issue on some of them that wasn't found during testing b/c proper stress tests weren't done.

It really does come down to economics: the tolerances & QC for a product are set by a company's profit margins & perceived need for quality. When you're using exorbitant amounts of taxpayers dollars to collide protons together in the LHC, or when you're NASA, your requirements for precision are going to be (slightly, haha) higher than those that Sony or Canon or Nikon may perceive they need for their products. So they make strategic decisions as to how much to invest in stress testing, quality control, etc. They make incremental updates in their products.

Do I wish they were better in certain regards? Absolutely. Can we make them change their mind/behave more responsibly by complaining? Perhaps. I think the best way to do so is for 3rd party reviewers and/or consumers to actually compile scientific data on performance of products and make it public. Crowd-source testing, to a certain extent. Then, if there's a statistically significant problem with a product, and another product performs better in a certain regard, manufacturers may be compelled to listen to stay in the game. It took a lot of user complaints for Nikon to acknowledge and fix the D800 left AF miscalibration problem, for example. It shouldn't have, because it was an easily quantifiable defect in many camera bodies.
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post #106 of 107 Old 11-04-2012, 01:36 PM
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I used to own the Sony a3000 LCOS Rear Projection TV, I gave it away to a family member. The TV has 14,000 hours on it with no optical block failure (this was the TV the class action lawsuit was based on, but I had the latest revision, actually the very final one before Sony quit making the TV). The image on the TV was ok, but it is not as good as the newer LCD/LED or Plasma TV's.

The main thing about the Sony and other LCOS (and LCD) is just degradation of contrast over time and other attributes, things get dirty etc...

Newer color wheels can actually last a VERY VERY long time, the color wheels are built on the same motors that hard drives use, and these motors have gotten far more reliable over the years. Although a projector can fail at anytime, it is surprising how long they can actually last. Keep in mind that the longevity estimates by manufacturers are only estimates based on tolerance and friction testing, they are usually not even based on field return rates. The reason being is they aren't able to assess the true longevity estimate because there is not enough time to do so, instead they use simulated engineering and testing to try to replicate the time sequences. That is why numbers like MTBF don't mean much, all they really mean is the higher number means better parts than something with a lower number, and the device with the higher MTBF will usually last longer (well almost certainly, but not guaranteed). It is all just a game of statistical probabilities.

It wouldn't surprise me to see a consumer level DLP last 50,000 hours on occassion, of course I am not claiming that is the average, I am just saying it is very possible. LCOS and LCD will have panel degradation usually before a DLP color wheel breaks (at least newer color wheels). For instance, in the older threads in this forum, we used to see color wheel issues popping up on an almost weekly basis, now if I take the entire Mits hc4000 and hc3800 thread, I think 2 people have posted about a color wheel issue in 4 years. Some people have well passed 8000 hours on those projectors. In the old Mits hd1000u and Benq thread, man there were color wheel issues constantly. Even the Benq's have far and few color wheel issues these days.


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post #107 of 107 Old 11-04-2012, 02:28 PM
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The reason that RPTV lasted so long is that you gave it away. If you kept it, it would have failed long before that. smile.gif

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