SONY VPL-VW500ES SXRD 4K Projector : IFA BERLIN 2013 - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 482 Old 06-29-2013, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catonic View Post

IMO, the RedRay exists so that owners of Red cameras can watch, colour grade, edit etc the footage they have shot on a 4k tv or projector. They do not exist for non-Red camera owners who happen to own a 4k tv or projector. Anyone hoping to use a RedRay to watch 4k content is very likely to be disappointed, possibly forever! I hope I am wrong but........
Time will tell.

It exits so that stuff shot on Red can be distributed to anyone owning a Redray player. It can be sent on card or drive or using Odemax over the internet.

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post #92 of 482 Old 06-29-2013, 12:21 PM
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Yes, Mark is correct. You don't NEED a redray to play red encoded media. As long as you have a codec to decode the format you're all set. There are several players out that will do this already.
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post #93 of 482 Old 06-29-2013, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Yes, Mark is correct. You don't NEED a redray to play red encoded media. As long as you have a codec to decode the format you're all set. There are several players out that will do this already.
Huh? 'Red encoded' media, as you put it, use a Rec codec, either the camera codec for post production (called Redcode Raw) or the distribution codec requiring RedCineX encoder plugging for encoding. For Redcode Raw there are many options to decode it. For the distribution codec there is only the RedRay player, no? Which other players play these files?
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post #94 of 482 Old 06-29-2013, 02:28 PM
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Catonic had mentioned a few posts up about using the redray for post production work and color grading. I'm referring to RAW RED footage. There are several pieces of software that can decode that format and thus this player isn't needed. If the RedCineX codec picks up traction there will definitely be libavcodec incorporation for it which means there will be a freeware option to play the media too.
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post #95 of 482 Old 06-29-2013, 10:24 PM
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Coolscan, who certainly knows much more about these matters than I do, has posted some relevant information here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

Movies on RedRay will mostly come from downloades from Odemax, but can be distributed on USB sticks or SD cards.
Red will not be in the business of distributing movies.
Odemax (demo page) will supposedly launch in mid July according to their Twitter feed (13 June).

Hopefully this means that by the end of July at least some 4k content will be downloadable from Odemax for those who have or intend to purchase a RedRay.
Then people such as Mark can give us their impressions of both the hardware and the 4k content made using Red cameras and equipment. smile.gif
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post #96 of 482 Old 06-29-2013, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post

Any news on the blu-ray spec being modified to accomodate 4K resolution? I've heard in other threads that Sony is using a video compression algorithm for their upcoming 4K download content that would easily work with existing blu-ray discs/drives and maintain good image quality.

I'd love to have the blu-ray format evolve for 4K. Let's hope we get 3-layers and improved color space (and additional frame-rate options for encoding) along for the ride.

No new Blu ray spec until hdmi 2.0 is finalized which the hdmi forum announced on Jan. 8, 2013 that the new 2.0 spec is expected in the first half of 2013, my guess is in a couple of weeks a new hdmi 2.0 spec will be released:D The new H.265/HEVC video codec was finally approved this past April
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post #97 of 482 Old 06-30-2013, 12:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Catonic had mentioned a few posts up about using the redray for post production work and color grading. I'm referring to RAW RED footage. There are several pieces of software that can decode that format and thus this player isn't needed. If the RedCineX codec picks up traction there will definitely be libavcodec incorporation for it which means there will be a freeware option to play the media too.
There are 2 Red codecs. One for post production and one for delivery. They should not be mixed up. And for now only RedRay plays files encoded with the distribution codec.
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post #98 of 482 Old 06-30-2013, 02:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catonic View Post

IMO, the RedRay exists so that owners of Red cameras can watch, colour grade, edit etc the footage they have shot on a 4k tv or projector. They do not exist for non-Red camera owners who happen to own a 4k tv or projector. Anyone hoping to use a RedRay to watch 4k content is very likely to be disappointed, possibly forever! I hope I am wrong but........
Time will tell.
This is a complete misunderstanding!
The RedRay player and the .Red codec for the player has nothing to do with Red Cameras or the codecs used for the cameras, or post production use like color grading.

You can encode any material from any camera with the RedRay .Red codec from whatever source.
It is solely a display codec.
Rip your BD movies and run it through the RedRay encoder plug-in in Redcine-X and you get a up-converted 4K .Red file.

One RedRay .Red encoder plug-in to the free Redcine-X editor comes free with the player. Additional rrencode plugins can be bought for the symbolic sum of $20.
There is also a free RedCommand iOS app for the RedRay player available. Android app comes soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Yes, Mark is correct. You don't NEED a redray to play red encoded media. As long as you have a codec to decode the format you're all set. There are several players out that will do this already.
RedRay .Red encoded material can only be played back using the RedRay player.
No playback through other software or hardware players or playback on PC or Mac.
This is one of the advantages of the codec for security/DRM reasons.

The encoder has three quality levels you can choose from before you start your encoding;
9Mb/s for low bitrate encoding, can possibly be used for streaming 4K material.
18Mb/s premium quality for Home Theatre size screens.
36Mb/s Cinema quality for distribution to big screen cinemas.

Some of the earliest encoding tests from the first owners of the RedRay player I have seen reported;
320GB of 4K stock footage encoded at 18Mb/s ended up as 1,8GB.
238GB of 16bit DPX 4K 05:20 runtime footage encoded at 36Mb/s Cinema quality ended up as 1.33GB with stereo audio.
Encoding times and size of encoded material will very much depend on the original material.

This shows that 4K material will fit snugly on a 50GB BD disc.

If you don't have a 4K display you can of course use the Redray player on any HD display with the benefit of superior quality from the downscaled 4K material.


CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 75
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post #99 of 482 Old 06-30-2013, 03:03 AM
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And that's all it will play if I understand things correctly. You must encode the source material with the distribution codec and then load it into the Redray by SD card, USB drive, or by internet. Every Redray comes with a distribution Codec license so you can load your own badass content into your Redray and content providers can buy a copy of the distribution codec for a measly nominal $20. This is not a SYMBOLIC sum though I consider it nominal. Symbolic would be something a dollar or other. Me? I am passing until the distribution service, Odemax, a peanut whistle operation in my humble opinion and presently begging for content to distribute, has content I want to watch for a fee I want to pay. Their past conduct in not answering emails etc and their present conduct in begging for content make them completely unworthy of my support.

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post #100 of 482 Old 06-30-2013, 03:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Me? I am passing until the distribution service, Odemax, is a peanut whistle operation in my humble opinion and is presently begging for content to distribute. Their past conduct and their present conduct in begging for content and potentially distributing it make them completely unworthy of my support.
What you really is saying is that you do not know anything about what Odemax is doing except trying to get Independent film makers to have their own channel for distribution.........and whatever else they are doing you know nothing until they go live.
You at least get kudos for the big effort you have put into spreading "doom an gloom" all over the place based on no knowledge. smile.gif
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post #101 of 482 Old 06-30-2013, 03:30 AM
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You can say all you want and I value your posts. I am not spreading doom and gloom. They are begging for content and will take even 2K content so that they will have enough content to launch. They made one lame ass post from Sundance and disappeared. They refused to answer customer inquiries. They still are not responding to end user inquiries I think. No. I don't know exactly what they are doing now and frankly I don't care. Their conduct to consumers over the least six months make them worthless in my opinion. Let some competitor flourish instead. And Red has no shot at significant HT consumer penetration with a machine at $1750.

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post #102 of 482 Old 06-30-2013, 05:10 AM
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Red's biggest issue is they announce things and then the products don't show up or take forever to come out.

If you followed early on they told everyone there would be 3k for 3k and $4k for $4k. Then they went mute. Then they decided to bring out a scarlet fixed lens 4k but that never happened. Then the projector which now is on the back burner. The red ray and now it finally shipping.

They don't say anything to there customers. Why is there a delay? ok you changed your mind can you explain why?

A lot of people wanted to go for the scarlet fixed. IT really would have a made a change but they decided against it after years of telling people its coming.

Need I go on.
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post #103 of 482 Old 06-30-2013, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

You can say all you want and I value your posts. I am not spreading doom and gloom. They are begging for content and will take even 2K content so that they will have enough content to launch. They made one lame ass post from Sundance and disappeared. They refused to answer customer inquiries. They still are not responding to end user inquiries I think. No. I don't know exactly what they are doing now and frankly I don't care. Their conduct to consumers over the least six months make them worthless in my opinion. Let some competitor flourish instead. And Red has no shot at significant HT consumer penetration with a machine at $1750.
I have no personal reason to defend Odemax (or Red) and only pick what I know from the Internet, and just want the information to be based in facts. To me the Odemax distribution system and the RedRay player is some of the most interesting new developments in consumer content distribution, and it would be very sad if they got hampered because of bad reputation before they even has launched because of aggressive FUD spreaders on the Internet .

To me they do exactly what everybody else in consumer electronics does; They announce something and months (or even years) later they release something.

Odemax has no reason to answer end user questions because they are not live and have no end user yet.
They might also be under contract to not reveal Hollywood Studio content because the Studios want to have control over launch promotions.
Remember there is quite a bit of competition between content owners and distribution systems.
They are responding to Independent film makers that has valid content they want to have distributed on the Odemax system, where many have signed up.

From what the Scott Poarch from Odemax said in the podcast interview on the FXguide site, they will have content from other content owners than Independent film makers, but they are not allowed to speak about it yet.

It doesn't surprise me that it can be slow for them to sign content owners on a completely new system platform that has no earlier affiliation with known content or distribution companies, but when they are able to demonstrate fully how it functions it might get easier.

As for the price of the RedRay player; yes it is expensive compared to the Today's price of DVD or BD players, but like those players it will eventually fall in price.
The RedRay player is also much more advanced than a BD player and should be considered high-end.

When I see that owners of $20000 projectors and 4K-UHD TVs say it is too expensive then "I raise my eyebrows ever so slightly"........ rolleyes.gif

If we exclude the Chinese "unknown brands" low price 4K-UHD TVs, the lowest prices from known brands start with $4,999 for a 58" from Toshiba and goes upwards from there depending on size.
I can't say that i find that the first 4K playback able player like the RedRay is shockingly expensive.

As for you not spreading "doom and gloom", not that you're not entertaining, but you are kidding, right? tongue.gif .................... smile.gif

We will see what Odemax is able to serve consumers of interesting content, hopefully from sometime in July. I reserve my judgement till they have been Live for some time.
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post #104 of 482 Old 06-30-2013, 05:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post


The encoder has three quality levels you can choose from before you start your encoding;
9Mb/s for low bitrate encoding, can possibly be used for streaming 4K material.
18Mb/s premium quality for Home Theatre size screens.
36Mb/s Cinema quality for distribution to big screen cinemas.

Some of the earliest encoding tests from the first owners of the RedRay player I have seen reported;
320GB of 4K stock footage encoded at 18Mb/s ended up as 1,8GB.
238GB of 16bit DPX 4K 05:20 runtime footage encoded at 36Mb/s Cinema quality ended up as 1.33GB with stereo audio.
Encoding times and size of encoded material will very much depend on the original material.

This shows that 4K material will fit snugly on a 50GB BD disc.

rolleyes.gif

You must have been mixed up somewhere, 4K material on a 50GB BD disc will be really horrible quailty
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post #105 of 482 Old 06-30-2013, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by space2001 View Post

Red's biggest issue is they announce things and then the products don't show up or take forever to come out.
Ask Samsung or LG what happened to their OLED TVs they have promised every year for the last five years. Or check out when Canon first announced the 200-400mm w/1.4x inbuilt converter lens (it arrived in the shops now in May) or how long it took for the 1Dc DSLR from announcement to arrival in the shops.
Red is late, and they acknowledge it, but everybody with much more experience in manufacturing are also frequently late.
So why does Red get more bad rap than the CEM's that have been doing this for decades?
Quote:
If you followed early on they told everyone there would be 3k for 3k and $4k for $4k. Then they went mute. Then they decided to bring out a scarlet fixed lens 4k but that never happened. Then the projector which now is on the back burner. The red ray and now it finally shipping.

They don't say anything to there customers. Why is there a delay? ok you changed your mind can you explain why?

A lot of people wanted to go for the scarlet fixed. IT really would have a made a change but they decided against it after years of telling people its coming.

Need I go on.
Many people are not too happy about announcing when there is something they thought they should manage but it showed out the could not do it.

The reason for that the Scarlet fixed lens camera was scrapped was that they had used a ton of money developing it, failed to make the fixed zoom lens focus consistently.
This is what they said in one post one time (in addition to say they found a 3K resolution camera was a too late, which I think was more of a bad excuse), but it isn't a failure admission they will repeat again and again.

The Scarlet camera they released instead, was the Scarlet S-35, which is one of the cameras they had on their roadmap in 2008.

As for the RedRay player delay; What Red hinted at was that after their Pre-order announcement, things changed rapidly because several companies wanted to get involved but was not ready for early release, and that Red simply used the delay time to optimise the software for the player. The hardware was in production already in late 2012 and hasn't changed from then. That's my guess.

What I think is worst with Red, which is kind of strange as they are the most open company of all, is the way they are communicating is lousy and often create more confusion than clarity.
Like as if they are so close to the information that they forget to say what for them is obvious but for us is needed to understand what they are saying.

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post #106 of 482 Old 06-30-2013, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by img eL View Post

rolleyes.gif
You must have been mixed up somewhere, 4K material on a 50GB BD disc will be really horrible quailty
Say you based on what experience of new high efficiency codecs and 4K material?

4K compress much easier than 2K-HD material because of the higher resolution. 2K-HD's biggest problem in compression is that the resolution is already too low (and oftener than not fully 2K resolved) and full of artefacts and heavy compression amplifies the problems.

Reserve your judgement until you have seen comparisons between original Cinema quality DCP and the same material compressed with .Red, HEVC/H.265 or the unknown codec Sony has licensed for their "cookie box" 4K player.

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post #107 of 482 Old 06-30-2013, 06:28 AM
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Let's see if I get you. They are the most open company but they fail to or don't communicate or when they do, they do it poorly? Perfect.

I think they know perfectly how much they are communicating. They want to generate as much hype and expectation that they can. Its mostly all good for them and their fan boy base. It keeps me coming back to their store site and forum. I actually engaged a theater owner on their forum who said if it wasn't a Red 4K projector it would not be suitable or economical for a smaller commercial theater.

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post #108 of 482 Old 06-30-2013, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

Say you based on what experience of new high efficiency codecs and 4K material?

4K compress much easier than 2K-HD material because of the higher resolution. 2K-HD's biggest problem in compression is that the resolution is already too low (and oftener than not fully 2K resolved) and full of artefacts and heavy compression amplifies the problems.

Reserve your judgement until you have seen comparisons between original Cinema quality DCP and the same material compressed with .Red, HEVC/H.265 or the unknown codec Sony has licensed for their "cookie box" 4K player.

-

Sony has licensed the codec from Palo Alto, CA based EyeIO which supplies h.264 and h.265 (HEVC) codecs, so it appears Sony will be using a standards based codec (probably HEVC). Recent info is that early implementations of HEVC encoders are only about 30% more efficient that the much more mature h.264 based encoders. However, HEVC encoding efficiency is expected to improve over the next year or two and will probably become at least 50% more efficient than h.264 based encoders.

I do feel that by using HEVC encoding it will be possible to fit many 2 hour movie titles that are encoded at 4K resolution, 24 fps and 10-bit depth onto a dual layer 50GB Blu-ray disc as long as "extras" or omitted. This should especially be true for movies without a lot of fast motion and a running time under 2 hours. Also it is now possible to have dual layer discs with up to 66 GB and this extended format might be useful to maintain high video quality with some longer movies. However, those longer movies with a lot of fast motion as well as any future UHD movies at 48 fps or 60 fps will force the need for 3-layer or 4-layer discs.

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post #109 of 482 Old 07-01-2013, 01:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

That's because they mass produce them for all the projectors they sell. They are the only company that does that and sell the lens in a projector form that differs over such a drastic price scale. The lens will be different. 4K is no different than 1080p when it comes to choosing lens quality. There are going to be different lenses for different price points. The higher cost lenses will simply resolve more than the cheaper ones.

I wonder how much different a 4K jvc lens will be. They have there e-shift projectors and they think those lenses are good enough for 4K. Maybe they can still use those lenses and we can get 4K for under $10K.
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post #110 of 482 Old 07-01-2013, 02:48 AM
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Sony should make 4K projectors like there DSLR cameras so we could swap in & out different quality lenses
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post #111 of 482 Old 07-01-2013, 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I think they know perfectly how much they are communicating. They want to generate as much hype and expectation that they can. Its mostly all good for them and their fan boy base. It keeps me coming back to their store site and forum.
I have guessed as much so you are probably right, just didn't want to put that in the open. It is the same way that Jannard built Oakley into a very successful brand.
At the same time, there are individual employees that answer questions in the same "minimalistic way" that I don't think do it out of any "strategy" just that they are not aware that they don't communicate very well.
Compare them to Graham Natress who is explaining things in his field very thorough and making the most complicated technical concepts understandable for laymen.
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I actually engaged a theater owner on their forum who said if it wasn't a Red 4K projector it would not be suitable or economical for a smaller commercial theater.
If you are referring to the replay to you that I think you do. What he said was that economicly he couldn't afford a 4K projector for his cinema unless Red released an affordable Cinema Laser projector, so for now he had to be content with the RedRay player and his 2K projector. As he has bought the RedRay player he obviously look forward to Odemax starts to distribute Independent movies for his small Independent cinema.

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Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

Sony has licensed the codec from Palo Alto, CA based EyeIO which supplies h.264 and h.265 (HEVC) codecs, so it appears Sony will be using a standards based codec (probably HEVC). Recent info is that early implementations of HEVC encoders are only about 30% more efficient that the much more mature h.264 based encoders. However, HEVC encoding efficiency is expected to improve over the next year or two and will probably become at least 50% more efficient than h.264 based encoders.
You assume a lot here based on no facts, so it is still an unknown.
EyeIO has a "smattering" of H.265 references on their web site, but the 4K solutions they have on offer today are based on the optimized H.264, which other companies claim are almost as good as H.265, so what compression codec EyeIO will use is still unknown.
HEVC isn't released yet for commercial licensing so that EyeIO and Sony should be starting to using this in their FMP- X1 if they intend to release the player this summer is still an open question.

What will be interesting is to see what companies like Samsung, LG, Toshiba, JVC etc. will affiliate themselves with for 4K content for their 4K-UHD displays now when Sony has locked in their 4K player and 4K content to exclusively for their own displays only.

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post #112 of 482 Old 07-01-2013, 06:15 AM
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Cool. You really need to reread that Reduser post. I did not twist it or mistate it. It was by an owner or part owner of any independent theater in Hollywood or near there and he indeed stated that 90% of Indy theaters couldn't afford to upgrade to 4K. However, the person stated with respect to the non existent commercial theater sized Red 4K projector, that "anything else is a waste of money and not useable in a cinema environment." No pricing has been announced for a theater model. This poster refused to engage, I assume because he was embarrassed by saying something so idiotic. and that statement is one of the most idiotic I have scene on Red or for that matter almost anywhere else. There are many 4K projectors available to theaters and price breakthroughs are coming from Sony. For a DCI machine, the industry is looking at about $75K, perhaps too expensive for many independents but certainly not a waste of money unless one means that the movie attender could care two bits about whether he/she was watching 2K, 4K, or 4K down scaled to 2K. In that case any expenditure of funds on any commercial 4K projector would be a waste. But only Red can make a useable projector for use in a cinema environment?

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post #113 of 482 Old 07-01-2013, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

I have guessed as much so you are probably right, just didn't want to put that in the open. It is the same way that Jannard built Oakley into a very successful brand.
At the same time, there are individual employees that answer questions in the same "minimalistic way" that I don't think do it out of any "strategy" just that they are not aware that they don't communicate very well.
Compare them to Graham Natress who is explaining things in his field very thorough and making the most complicated technical concepts understandable for laymen.
If you are referring to the replay to you that I think you do. What he said was that economicly he couldn't afford a 4K projector for his cinema unless Red released an affordable Cinema Laser projector, so for now he had to be content with the RedRay player and his 2K projector. As he has bought the RedRay player he obviously look forward to Odemax starts to distribute Independent movies for his small Independent cinema.
You assume a lot here based on no facts, so it is still an unknown.
EyeIO has a "smattering" of H.265 references on their web site, but the 4K solutions they have on offer today are based on the optimized H.264, which other companies claim are almost as good as H.265, so what compression codec EyeIO will use is still unknown.
HEVC isn't released yet for commercial licensing so that EyeIO and Sony should be starting to using this in their FMP- X1 if they intend to release the player this summer is still an open question.

What will be interesting is to see what companies like Samsung, LG, Toshiba, JVC etc. will affiliate themselves with for 4K content for their 4K-UHD displays now when Sony has locked in their 4K player and 4K content to exclusively for their own displays only.

-

That's why I qualified my statement on Sony using HEVC with "probably". EyeIO may very well be providing an optimized h.264 based 4K encoder, but as EyeIO is known to be developing HEVC encoders, its possible (if not probable) that Sony will go that route, as least in the future. I was attempting to point out with my earlier post that EyeIO is Sony's supplier (as per EyeIO press release) and by all evidence it will be either based on h.264 or h.265 and not an ad hoc encoding technique that will be unique to the Sony product. Its also possible the Sony 4k player will use a software based decoder which will initially support only h.264 and a subsequent firmware update will add support for HEVC decoding.



.

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post #114 of 482 Old 07-01-2013, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Cool. You really need to reread that Reduser post. I did not twist it or misstate it. It was by an owner or part owner of any independent theater in Hollywood or near there and he indeed stated that 90% of Indy theaters couldn't afford to upgrade to 4K. However, the person stated with respect to the non existent commercial theater sized Red 4K projector, that "anything else is a waste of money and not useable in a cinema environment." No pricing has been announced for a theater model. This poster refused to engage, I assume because he was embarrassed by saying something so idiotic. and that statement is one of the most idiotic I have scene on Red or for that matter almost anywhere else. There are many 4K projectors available to theaters and price breakthroughs are coming from Sony. For a DCI machine, the industry is looking at about $75K, perhaps too expensive for many independents but certainly not a waste of money unless one means that the movie attender could care two bits about whether he/she was watching 2K, 4K, or 4K down scaled to 2K. In that case any expenditure of funds on any commercial 4K projector would be a waste. But only Red can make a useable projector for use in a cinema environment?
What he wrote and what you present it as is very different.

My understanding is that he, after switching to digital and investing in a 2K projector could not at this point in time afford or justify the expense of a powerful enough 4K projector, because of lack of 4K movie releases.
Nowhere does he say that only Red can make a usable projector, but that only 4K DCI compliant projectors in the $60-80K range is usable and so would the Red Crimson Laser projector be in his opinion (which he probably hopes will be less expensive than the projectors mentioned above, if it ever is released).

I agree that your initial critics of testing the RedRay on a 2K projector is not so very interesting, when what we really wanted to know is if the .RED compression holds up on a large screen in 4K.
But that's just us nerds that want to see reports from some quality tests. tongue.gif

That his replay to you was as idiotic as you present and use as a basis for criticism, and at Red in particular (your favourite "whipping boy" at the moment wink.gif ), here on AVS I don't see;
Here is the quote of the replay. Maybe you also should read it one more time?
Quote:
Hey Mark, all of this makes sense from a testing standpoint. However at this time most, probably 80% or more, of the independent and smaller commercial cinemas like Downtown Independent are stuck with 2K. Upgrading to 4K means spending $60,000-$80,000 for a new DCI compliant projector and server, anything else until RED releases their projector is a waste of money and not useable in a cinema enviornment. Since we installed our DCI system 2 years ago we've seen one film come in that was finished at 4K AND distributed at 4K. We're opening MANIAC the new Elijah Wood movie on Friday, shot on EPIC at 5K, it will likely be delivered at 2K, some theaters will be exhibiting MANIAC with consumer grade BluRay. Indie distributors are totally scamming exhibitors and the audience by sending films out on BluRay. this has hopefully just ended or will end soon.


I just put up something I shot at 5K on our screen and it looks amazing at 1080. Further, this is way more than 4K resolution. For the Downtown Independent, REDRay will solve a huge workflow issue where in the past clients were bringing files in any combo of codec/color depth/bitrate/audio to play back from our aging macpro. RED just eliminated that problem.

We'll be hosting regular open screen nights, and will encourage out friends in the exhibition world to do the same, come on by if you're ever in LA.
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post #115 of 482 Old 07-01-2013, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by img eL View Post

Sony should make 4K projectors like there DSLR cameras so we could swap in & out different quality lenses

That would be nice, but I doubt that you would like the cost increase. it costs a fair amount of extra money, making it so that lenses can be easily swapped out and more money making three lens sizes available.

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post #116 of 482 Old 07-01-2013, 02:01 PM
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There are several reasons why interchangeable lens raise total costs. First you need to add an interchangeable lens mount and second, economies of scale decrease because the manufacturer is buying not one large quantity of one lens but lesser quantities of say three lenses, those quantities approximating the quantity that would be purchased if only one lens was used. because the costs would increase, not as many projectors would be sold either.

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post #117 of 482 Old 07-01-2013, 02:13 PM
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Cool. Despite what you say and despite the guy is a good guy and has my general respect for what he is doing in running open screen nights, the sentence I quoted is idiotic. Pure and simple.


Until Red releases their (commercial theater) projector is waste of money and is not useable in a cinema environment. There are presently no high power laser projectors available anywhere because of regulatory barriers except for the Kodak machine licensed to Imax.

There are lots or 4K theater sized machines bulb lit that are available and more are coming. They are all useable in a cinema environment. Nothing is known about the cost of a laser theater projector from Red. While these machines are expensive though cheaper machines are coming, and while many small theater owners can not afford one of the present machines, the only way purchasing one would be a waste of money is that showing 4 or higher K in 4K, might not generate enough extra revenue to cover the costs. We know nothing about what such a machine would cost from Red or whether others will have a cheaper machine. Let's just agree that I am right here and you are wrong and go on to a more intellectually challenging discourse. smile.gif

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post #118 of 482 Old 07-01-2013, 02:42 PM
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post #119 of 482 Old 07-02-2013, 08:28 AM
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Sony is branding quantum dot backligt converter as Triluminus for their flat panel LCDs.
That is blu leds ->quntum dots that convert to red and green and emit in narrowband.

This sounds similar to the talk about Sony using a "White" laser +phosphors to replace UHP lamps. If Sony is really Selling Trilumions that might be good news fora 2013 release of a Sony Triluminos projector.

Do you see that pattern too or am I optimistic?

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post #120 of 482 Old 07-02-2013, 01:46 PM
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The blue laser lit phosphor Sony is using in the referenced business class projector emits white light, that it filter twice to separate the white into the three primaries. The first filter/mirror passes one color and then off a mirror to reach the first chip, leaving the other filter/mirror to pass the second color sending it directly to the second or center chip, leaving the third to bounce off two mirrors to reach the third chip in the engine.

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