SONY VPL-VW500ES SXRD 4K Projector : IFA BERLIN 2013 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 482 Old 11-10-2012, 11:32 PM - Thread Starter
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http://www.projection-homecinema.fr/2013/09/04/sony-vpl-vw500es-sxrd-4k-3d-rf/

Resolution 4K
3D Ready
Reality creation
Zoom memory
Full motorized optical engine

Availibility in Europe, November 2013
Price : 9999€
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post #2 of 482 Old 11-10-2012, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraine View Post

I don't have his name for the moment but here are the first specifications :
It's the successor of the famous VPL-VWW95ES
Resolution 1080P
3D Ready
1700 lumens
200 000:1 Contrast
Reality creation
Zoom memory
Full motorized optical engine
Availibility in Europe, April 2013
Expected Price : 5500€
http://www.cinetson.org/phpBB3/projecteurs-f2/sony-vpl-successeur-vw95es-5500e-1080p-2013-t36524.html

I thought it was going to be 4K, which is not necessary needed. I'm sure its going to be excellent
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post #3 of 482 Old 11-11-2012, 07:01 AM
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The problem was or is trying to bring out a 4K at the price point of the 95 or near it. A 4K lens is not cheap and I suspect it was the deal breaker pushing the 95 successor to using 1080p panels. Sony could easily I think have used the 4K panels instead of the 1080p ones at some incremental price difference. But there is no way to get a 4K lens of the quality of the present 2K lens in the 95 without pushing the costs of manufacturer to way beyond the 95 price point.

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post #4 of 482 Old 11-11-2012, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

The problem was or is trying to bring out a 4K at the price point of the 95 or near it. A 4K lens is not cheap and I suspect it was the deal breaker pushing the 95 successor to using 1080p panels. Sony could easily I think have used the 4K panels instead of the 1080p ones at some incremental price difference. But there is no way to get a 4K lens of the quality of the present 2K lens in the 95 without pushing the costs of manufacturer to way beyond the 95 price point.

I guess that's why we haven't heard much about the Red Ray projector.
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post #5 of 482 Old 11-11-2012, 11:59 AM
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I'd wait on this if the price were a bit cheaper. If nothing sounds too exciting next year maybe a B stock will become available. Until then...
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post #6 of 482 Old 11-11-2012, 12:56 PM
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I don't get the excitement around 4k at this point. Native content is still several years away.

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post #7 of 482 Old 11-11-2012, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Toknowshita View Post

I don't get the excitement around 4k at this point. Native content is still several years away.

I am not excited about it, just a little curious if it is better. Just heard the successor of the 95 might be a 4k for under $10,000.
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post #8 of 482 Old 11-11-2012, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I guess that's why we haven't heard much about the Red Ray projector.

If I remember correctly, the price of the Red projector was 10K without lens. I don't really keep up with it and I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, but that is what I seem to recall.

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post #9 of 482 Old 11-11-2012, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

If I remember correctly, the price of the Red projector was 10K without lens. I don't really keep up with it and I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, but that is what I seem to recall.

Just seem weird that they made a big deal about a under $10K 4k laser projector, but it has no lens.
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post #10 of 482 Old 11-12-2012, 11:01 AM
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Lots of highend projectors have interchangeable lens, so that is not uncommon.

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post #11 of 482 Old 11-12-2012, 01:23 PM
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One really needs to see a 4K projector before saying it isn't worth it without 4K content.

The most economical way to price a projector is to put on a one size fits all lens such as JVC does. When you bring a long zoom ratio into several smaller ratio lenses, the cost of the lens will go down but the economies of scale of one size fits all disappear. Plus you need a lens mount that accepts interchangeable lens and this adds to the cost.

The RED projector will come in several light out models. Obviously the higher the lumens out, the more likely the lens requirements would change to fit the intended screen size and throw. Also lenses for high light out versions may include fixed stops to boost the contrast up.

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post #12 of 482 Old 11-12-2012, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Lots of highend projectors have interchangeable lens, so that is not uncommon.

I'm aware of interchangeable lens, which I understand. I was just confused of stating a projector is under $10K, but needing to buy a lens at additional cost. If I needed to buy a lens to complete the new JVC, I would not want to pay the added cost for the projector.
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post #13 of 482 Old 11-12-2012, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

One really needs to see a 4K projector before saying it isn't worth it without 4K content.
The most economical way to price a projector is to put on a one size fits all lens such as JVC does. When you bring a long zoom ratio into several smaller ratio lenses, the cost of the lens will go down but the economies of scale of one size fits all disappear. Plus you need a lens mount that accepts interchangeable lens and this adds to the cost.
The RED projector will come in several light out models. Obviously the higher the lumens out, the more likely the lens requirements would change to fit the intended screen size and throw. Also lenses for high light out versions may include fixed stops to boost the contrast up.

I seen the Sony 4k projector. Higher resolution is always wanted IMO. But I liked it, it was a really good projector. I am just satisfied with a high end JVC for 2D movie watching. Plus, eshift is good enough for my peace of mind, for the moment
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post #14 of 482 Old 11-12-2012, 02:12 PM
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I'm looking forward to going 4k. Even with limited content in the early years, you still have upscaling of your regular blu rays which gives everyone a nice library to enjoy 'faux' 4k. We also have the fact that a super huge library of movies dating back decades can be re-mastered to 4k so we should see all the classics eventually make their way to the 4k format, much like the large number that have already been re-mastered for blu ray. A lot of these re-masters have been done with 4k and even 8k in mind and are just waiting for the platform to take off so there is plenty to be exited about IMO.
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post #15 of 482 Old 11-12-2012, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

One really needs to see a 4K projector before saying it isn't worth it without 4K content
Mark's calibrated Sony 4K easily provides the best image I have ever seen, and I say this having only seen it with 1080p content.

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post #16 of 482 Old 11-12-2012, 03:13 PM
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I'm aware of interchangeable lens, which I understand. I was just confused of stating a projector is under $10K, but needing to buy a lens at additional cost. If I needed to buy a lens to complete the new JVC, I would not want to pay the added cost for the projector

It might have been a clever marketing move on REDs part - under 10K - it got your attention.

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post #17 of 482 Old 11-12-2012, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post


I thought it was going to be 4K, which is not necessary needed. I'm sure its going to be excellent

 

I have the vw95, and I have to say, that any successor has some big shoes to fill. I seriously doubt any successor short of 4K will prove worthy enough to upgrade considering how well the 95 does in so many areas. 

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post #18 of 482 Old 11-12-2012, 06:11 PM
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If they can replicate the 3 things that made the HW50 better than the HW30, then it should be a popular model next year.

  • brightness increase in 2D and 3D
  • Reality Creation
  • Better overall 3D performance (mainly due to the brightness and sharpness with RC)
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post #19 of 482 Old 11-12-2012, 10:10 PM
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It is great to hear that Sony will be coming out with a VW95 replacement. Indeed it has big shoes to fill and will need to move the needle to motivate me to upgrade, but I'm always open to the idea.

The brightness spec of 1,700 lumens compares to 1,000 lumens on the VW95 so that suggests it will be quite a bit brighter, even post calibration. That is good, although for my 106" 1.3 gain screen I have plenty of brightness now. That said, 3D can always be brighter. So this has some weight to motivate an upgrade, but not huge weight for me.

The contrast spec from 150,000:1 going to 200,000:1 doesn't really impress me much. That's a tiny difference, likely not noticeable. Impressive they improved it while making the unit a lot brighter, but still I was hoping they could really clamp it down more.

The Reality Creation sounds interesting. I didn't know much about it so I read Art's review of the HW50, where he goes into great detail with lots of A/B with Reality Creation on/off. To me it looks very similar to the effect the Darbee has, with the Darbee possibly doing a better job (hard to tell from screen shots though). So I wonder if Reality Creation provides a very similar effect to the Darbee effect, and if so, which is better. Likewise I wonder if these two can be combined with good results. I posted a question about this in the VW1000 thread since that model has Reality Creation and figure a fair number of VW1000 owners have a Darbee by now.

What do you guys think?
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post #20 of 482 Old 11-13-2012, 12:28 AM
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Ric. You have but to drive 1/2 hour and reach your own conclusions as to RC combined with a Darblet on a 1000ES. I use them both for a net gain iver one alone but there are three huge variables. Exactly where should the two RC sliders (resolution and noise filtering) and the Darbee percentage be set/ Setting the Darblet is fairly obvious although oibservers on my system will differ slightly in setting it. Setting the RC is a crap shoot. The only thing I can do is use vertical and horizontal on off single pixel pattterns to try and make those grids look best and free of artifacts. Those patterns are torture tests but it still is quite arbritary in choosing the best settings.
I note in the 50 threads people emply the mpeq noise reduction as well when using the RC. I never even want to think about combining that. I just don't see any mpeq noise to filter but maybe I should be seeing it and trying to remove it. In any even, the RC really is a more severe screwing with the picture and screws with it in a lot more areas than the Darblet does. I view it as the RC being a large Venn diagram circle and the Darblet as a much smaller one but still overlapping to some significant extent but also standing independently to add a benefit not there with RC alone.

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post #21 of 482 Old 11-13-2012, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

It is great to hear that Sony will be coming out with a VW95 replacement. Indeed it has big shoes to fill and will need to move the needle to motivate me to upgrade, but I'm always open to the idea.
The brightness spec of 1,700 lumens compares to 1,000 lumens on the VW95 so that suggests it will be quite a bit brighter, even post calibration. That is good, although for my 106" 1.3 gain screen I have plenty of brightness now. That said, 3D can always be brighter. So this has some weight to motivate an upgrade, but not huge weight for me.
The contrast spec from 150,000:1 going to 200,000:1 doesn't really impress me much. That's a tiny difference, likely not noticeable. Impressive they improved it while making the unit a lot brighter, but still I was hoping they could really clamp it down more.
The Reality Creation sounds interesting. I didn't know much about it so I read Art's review of the HW50, where he goes into great detail with lots of A/B with Reality Creation on/off. To me it looks very similar to the effect the Darbee has, with the Darbee possibly doing a better job (hard to tell from screen shots though). So I wonder if Reality Creation provides a very similar effect to the Darbee effect, and if so, which is better. Likewise I wonder if these two can be combined with good results. I posted a question about this in the VW1000 thread since that model has Reality Creation and figure a fair number of VW1000 owners have a Darbee by now.
What do you guys think?

I think the Darbee has taken the wind out of the RC sails, especially as a new offering in the 95 successor.  It sounds like from Mark's response that there may some additional benefit, but is that along with extra brightness really make upgrading worth it. Perhaps for the 3D crowd, which isn't me, maybe. 

I would have preferred that Sony keep the vw95 and offer a 4K priced between the 95 and 1000.  But that would hurt the 1000, and without any other real world priced 4K machines and no 4K source yet why rush? , I guess that will have to wait to 2014 and beyond.

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post #22 of 482 Old 11-13-2012, 07:35 AM
 
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Drat. on the original link that started this thread, I just saw the following

Last minute information, Sony did not confirm any of the information on Laurent's successor VW95.

so is this even real??
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post #23 of 482 Old 11-13-2012, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

If they can replicate the 3 things that made the HW50 better than the HW30, then it should be a popular model next year.
  • brightness increase in 2D and 3D
  • Reality Creation
  • Better overall 3D performance (mainly due to the brightness and sharpness with RC)


Jason, i agree on all three above points .

If anything is a little "weak" on the 95, it is that it is not a light canon and that extra light can be good used to a lot off things:

Bigger picture posiblility
brighter picture and less sensible, with lights in the room etc.
lower gain screen posibility ( like typical AT screens and 3D at same time )
3D never gets to bright IMO and with active glasses, more light = better posibility to lower the duty cykle on the glasses and therby lower the ghosting even more
More posibility to run the projector in low lamp mode - for longer lamp time, lower noise , lower heats generated/ longer life time in general, but not sacrifice light/punch/ "dynamic" output

BTW. I seen the RC in both the HW50 and the 1000ES and even that I think the RC in HW50 make a very good benfit ( when used correct ) it can NOT compare and is not generating as big a benefit in picture quality as the RC ( with 2K to 4K upscaling/ database whatever ) in the 1000ES do - its outstanding !

but I do expect the RC in a new 95+ (even if it still is a 2K projector ) would be a big benefit too

And if I dont get the 1000ES ( still consider redface.gif ) , this new model going to be my replacement of the almost flawless 95ES I have now.

dj
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post #24 of 482 Old 11-13-2012, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlanzy View Post

I think the Darbee has taken the wind out of the RC sails, especially as a new offering in the 95 successor.  It sounds like from Mark's response that there may some additional benefit, but is that along with extra brightness really make upgrading worth it. Perhaps for the 3D crowd, which isn't me, maybe. 


I would have preferred that Sony keep the vw95 and offer a 4K priced between the 95 and 1000.  But that would hurt the 1000, and without any other real world priced 4K machines and no 4K source yet why rush? , I guess that will have to wait to 2014 and beyond.

I did not say that. They are both beneficial and the Darbee employs algs that the RC doesn't. The RC is broader in the improvement it makes and it does do some contrast enhancement just as the Darbee does. There is undoubtedly some overlap but there is considerable that are not overlaps.

What I find difficult is finding the optimum settings for the two RC sliders. Finding the optimum for the Darbee is easy but even that is not exact and involves viewer subjectiveness rather than test patterns.

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post #25 of 482 Old 11-16-2012, 06:33 PM
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I was talking with a Sony rep today and he said the 95 replacement isn't due till Cedia next year in Denver. But I did spend time with the 4K 1000 series. Talk about impressive. And so is that 84 inch 4K panel. That was the most impressive picture I've seen ever.
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post #26 of 482 Old 11-17-2012, 11:16 AM
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Previous reports on AVS list the VW95 replacement being shown at CES in January with availability in May / June?
This makes more sense as the HW50 is out now and the VW95 replacement uses the 1700 lumens out and RC that the 50 has.
Doesn't make any sense to delay the 95's replacement for another year?
This would also allow competitors to pull ahead of Sony as the VW95 replacement tech would now be a year old before being implemented?
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post #27 of 482 Old 11-19-2012, 06:14 AM
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^^^^

I agree with everything you say. Maybe the reps are told to say its coming later so people won't wait and buy the current model. I was just as surprised as you.
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post #28 of 482 Old 11-19-2012, 12:43 PM
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If the VW95 replacement is coming in early 2012, this would make some sense given the rumored features. But if this is coming CEDIA 2012 there better be many more significant improvements than what is rumored here or I'll have any interest. To me it seems like they'd be a good year behind everyone else's progress if that was the case. Who knows....
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post #29 of 482 Old 11-22-2012, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

If the VW95 replacement is coming in early 2012, this would make some sense given the rumored features. But if this is coming CEDIA 2012 there better be many more significant improvements than what is rumored here or I'll have any interest. To me it seems like they'd be a good year behind everyone else's progress if that was the case. Who knows....

I think early 2012 has come and gone or am I a year ahead of everyone else? biggrin.gif
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post #30 of 482 Old 11-22-2012, 09:30 PM
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It looks like 4K content is coming very very quickly. Sony has made an announcement that content will be available to their 4K flat panel buyers and we hope to those who have purchased or will purchase a 1000ES.

Red has announced the Redray player with a server included and a partner who will supply 4K content. Commplete details are expected on December 30.

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